Why NOT Have The Bible In Schools? | TE - IL | Talk Heathen 04.13
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Talk Heathen 04.13 for March 29, 2020 with Eric Murphy & Jim Barrows.
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My nephew has religious studies in his school and he warmed my heart when he came home one day and said, "Do people really believe that garbage?", He's 11 years old.
Now we need more smart childen like this who think in reality.
He's already doomed like you.
They had morals. Heathen generations today tolerate and promote sin. They will burn.
@@mikerodgers7620 😂😂😂😂
@@mikerodgers7620 what a load of sheep dip Mike. There is no hate like christian love. The proff is in the history books. RELIGION; The scourge of all human kind!
No Bible in the classroom. Period.
Relegate it to the fictional section of the public library.
the bible can be taught in philosophy or world religion class, but not in science class.
@@louiscyfer6944 I'm ok with the world religion part, I don't know if I agree with the philosophy part, but that would depend on how its taught
Let them read the bible , the moment they read it they'll become Atheist.
I was a christian and never read my bible only believe what the preacher though wich were cherry pick passages, the moment I got serious and began to read the Bible objectively I realize how evil God was and I became and atheist.
Feel free to carry it with you and read it anytime. No will stop you.
MadCity Jack exactly.
When they brought up the Koran you could almost hear the caller think, "Don't compare my totally true religion to other people's false religion."
Someone should tell him his religion is equally as false.
He even went so far as to infer that his version of Christianity is different to European Christianity, and is therefore somehow better.
Yeah well he's also a fuking idiot because he thinks that the United States a Christian Nation. He immediately lost the argument the second he tried that
He is so self absorbed he cannot understand the argument.
He's a fucken idiot.
Totally. Comes off like a fuckin arsehole.
Christians think if they can't kill you for your beliefs, then they are victims...
Jay B 😂 that is funny
Yes your right.. I know this guy...This guy T.E. His Name is Ronnie who is a complete narcissistic self-centered asshole. Ronnie channel is called TrueEmperialism @ueEmpiricism on CZcams. He thinks because he reads certain books that goes with his personal confirmation bias. Because he is in a Christian apologist any young earth creationist. Who twists in manipulates scientific books for his own personal Christian agenda which is a bunch of pseudoscience. He acts like he knows science and comes up with a bunch of dumb creationist pseudoscience crap based out of no empirical evidence. The guy read books on biology but he has never been in a laboratory and has never done Real laboratory experiments nor has he worked with professionals in the fields of evolutionary biology genetics or anything else. He just thinks he read a book, on Particular scientific subjects and thinks he’s more smarter than the scientific community.
This guy is a complete arrogant idiot. I’m calling this douche bag out. He’s been a dishonest prick to so many people. And he’s trying to come in is being something else. This guy is a fraud and a dishonest human being with no credentials to support any of his bullshit.
In Canada we do have the bible in schools! In World Religions class and Mythology: As it should be.
An opportunity to discover how barbaric and stupid these tribal cultures were, living in the Bronze Age.
Wow. Does that include the parts of Canada where they mostly speak French? Somehow I got the feeling they tend to be very religious. I'm not sure I remember where I got that idea.
@@jrasicmark1 I'm not 100% sure on how Québec handles it as I do not speak French, however I would say yes regardless of how religious or not they are. We do have Catholic Schools which of course don't teach the Bible in those classes I mentioned but they teach it in "Religious Studies" only and are required to still teach proper science as per circulum.
@Haku infinite in "Religious Studies" which is only a class in privately funded Catholic Schools, only whatever branch of Christianity that school is for. In "World Religions" which is in our public schools there's: Christianity, Muslim, Hindu, Bhuddism, Native Spiritualism and more. In Ancient History you also get Greek Helenism, Ancient Egyptian, Zoroastrianism, and so on.
Its put in mythology class?
This guy has no interest in having a conversation.
Just wants to PREACH.
Many theist callers don't.
Did he EVER not talk over any answer by Eric and Jim? But he got all "Let me finish." on his long rambles.
TrueEmpiricism is the worst.
While this statement may or may not be true in this case, Eric has a tendency to want to not deal with the conversation that some callers wanted to have to have a conversation Eric wants to have. If this guy wanted to talk about religion in school, I think Eric is wrong to want to change that conversation to one about fairness and force this guy to have that conversation. Although, I will admit that I see where Eric gets that overarching topic with this caller.
Also, it’s claimed that this is true empiricism. If it is (and I don’t know if it is) then it doesn’t matter what Eric says, he will be wrong.
I am a theist and I disagree that religion should be taught except for literature or religious beliefs globally. If you want Sunday school, go to Sunday school.
Tell your fellow theists. They are against other religions but their own
Thank you
@@derekmizer6293
Nonsense, I suggest you attempt to familiarize yourself with the facts before posting your premature assumptions. All the schools I've been in taught about all major 5 world religions. Some had some restrictions on certain topics within the science classes, which should be opposed of course.
@@BlacksmithTWD so it is okay to teach Muslim belief to students in school?!
Science says nothing about religion. It has nothing to do with belief. Science is about what can be demonstrated to be true not what is believed to be true. A scientist belief isnt evidence. He will need to provide evidence that is falsifiable.
@@derekmizer6293
Along with the other 4 major religions in this world, what Islam entails should be taught yes. What the 5 major religions have in common and where they do differ is useful information to know. It could have prevented the infamous presidential blunder of giving a cow leather bound book as a relationship present to a Hindu.
"Science says nothing about religion. It has nothing to do with belief. Science is about what can be demonstrated to be true not what is believed to be true. A scientist belief isnt evidence. He will need to provide evidence that is falsifiable."
Why are you saying this, do you think I stated anything to oppose this? If so I suggest you read my statements again with a bit more care. I teach science, unless you see me make a mistake and can provide evidence for this to actually be a mistake of mine, I don't need to be educated in it. Certainly not without providing disclaimers like "in case you didn't know already" pretending you are telling me something new.
When I started school in the early fifties we prayed every morning and also said grace at the school lunch. And on Mondays we were expected to recite psalm verses we learnt over the weekend. The end of the school year was celebrated in the local church. It worked out great and now almost all of us are atheists. BTW I live in Scandinavia.
Exactly the same story from me in the UK. We had Religious Instruction from a teacher wearing a clerical collar. In addition, I married a Catholic girl and had to undertake that any kids were raised as Catholics. They were...and were both alter-servers. They're now both atheists too. The fact that my son got his degree in astrophysics probably helped. 😊
@@alfresco8442 glad to hear it worked out for you got scared halfway through 😂 but I guess if you can just plant a little seed of doubt and get them out of that indoctrination just a little bit could be all they need I mean that’s all I needed, just my dad not going to church and not taking part of any religious things in our house, made me curious because I always thought everything Christian’s said was at least silly
In 2016 I was removed from my assembly because I wasn't praying and they threatened demerits and detention. (Btw, the majority of the school was Muslim and even Hindu populated) when I said I wasn't Christian, they replied, without skipping a beat "But you're white."
I had to spell out to them, and correct the forms where the school literally scratched out the part where we said non-religous and put me down as Christian. On a signed document.
The school also doesn't advertise as a Christian school in any way whatsoever, but then suddenly you get in there and they say " You knew it was a Christian school when you joined.". Like uhhhhh no, a good lot of us had literally no idea until the recurring Monday and Friday prayers.
Hilarious!🌸☘️🌼
@@cylemorton2131 All religions are bullshit mind control fairytales!
Another blatantly dishonest caller
TrueEmpiricism ‘TE’ is definitely as dishonest as they come!
I have been on the planet for almost half a century, I have seen noone more dishonest than a religious person.
@@seanjones2456
Flat Earth conmen tend to equal them in dishonesty, then again, alot of them tend to be religious aswell.)
Yes your right.. I know this guy...This guy T.E. His Name is Ronnie who is a complete narcissistic self-centered asshole. Ronnie channel is called TrueEmperialism @ueEmpiricism on CZcams. He thinks because he reads certain books that goes with his personal confirmation bias. Because he is in a Christian apologist any young earth creationist. Who twists in manipulates scientific books for his own personal Christian agenda which is a bunch of pseudoscience. He acts like he knows science and comes up with a bunch of dumb creationist pseudoscience crap based out of no empirical evidence. The guy read books on biology but he has never been in a laboratory and has never done Real laboratory experiments nor has he worked with professionals in the fields of evolutionary biology genetics or anything else. He just thinks he read a book, on Particular scientific subjects and thinks he’s more smarter than the scientific community.
This guy is a complete arrogant idiot. I’m calling this douche bag out. He’s been a dishonest prick to so many people. And he’s trying to come in is being something else. This guy is a fraud and a dishonest human being with no credentials to support any of his bullshit.
But he "studied the quran back to back"
Why not offer Science courses at Church Services and in Bible classes?
Teach the controversy and provide equal time.
But...but...that's not fair to their beliefs that Science is wrong. That knowledge may *GASP* change minds.
I'm late in this, but..
They do pretend to teach science. They teach creationism instead of evolution. And they even a form of health/s*x ed class called purity culture and shaming.
They actively continue to misrepresent and misinform youth to this day.
My father spent 46 years in Public Education, as teacher, principal, superintendent, and university professor (teaching teachers and future teachers.) He would say that every few years he would get a group of parents who would come to him and ask if they could have prayer in school. He would answer, "Sure, as long as I get to write the prayer!!" They would ask, "Why should YOU write the prayer?" And his response was, "Why should YOU???" He said that if a tornado was heading toward a school and a janitor jumped up on a table in the cafeteria and yelled, :"Every one pray the tornado misses the school." He said THAT was establishment of religion. If a student jumped up on a table and said, "Everyone pray the tornado misses the school", that was freedom of speech!! My dad was the head usher in his church and a Deacon, but as an educator, he understood one thing. His faith was HIS, and school was for the education of his students. You want your kids to pray, take them to your church. That is their job OR YOURS, NOT HIS!!!
In both cases,if the tornado hits the school it means the either prayer to the wrong god, their god doesn't care about them, or there is no god.
@@cnault3244 Which has NOTHING to do with either establishing religion or freedom of speech, but way to NOT TRACK WITH THE CONVERSATION!!!
@@cnault3244 there is no god
@@jaysantanaofficialmusic There may be, but until evidence for a god is shown there is no reason to believe a god exists.
@@cnault3244 Remember, God's the one that sent the tornado in the first place because he's a sadistic S.O.B.
Quite a few of the Founding Fathers were Deists, NOT Theists, who disdained Christianity. Even the founders who were Christian refused to entangle religion with government, because they knew full well, looking back at the Puritans during the Salem witch trials as one example of many, what happens whenever religion acquires rule over law: an almost automatic violation of human rights. Therefore, they wrote the First Amendment such that laws would be equal and fair to people of any religion, denomination, or none.
The U.S. was the first and only nation at that time to have ever allowed this kind of tolerance and inclusion, which is what made us appealing to foreigners trying to escape religious persecution in their own countries. The issues started with the backlash from the common-folk who began repeated waves of religious revivalism. "In God We Trust" was put onto coins in the 1860s during the Civil War, then made the motto in the 1950s as a response to the communist "Red Scare".
What Madalyn Murray O'Hair did in the 1960s-80s was stop the states from mandating reverent prayer and Bible readings in public spaces, because such enforcement marginalized anyone who didn't follow whatever specific brand of religion the state endorsed. She DID NOT make it illegal for students to pray to themselves or start their own student-led after school religious club, she made it illegal for teachers/officials to lead them into it. Unfortunately, religious zealots have since been trying to find ways around the law to try and force their religion onto everyone else, and have no compunction about lying to achieve that.
Yeah the church of England was in power and taxing and raping the lands of the people. We were based on an actual anarchy of the English rule. We stood against a corrupt theocracy and would not be ruled by belief again.
Well said.
If you're a deist, you ARE a theist..
@@wesleymiddleton1401 And now the US has a higher christian percentage than the UK, and the UK has no evangelical screaming nutjobs :P
plowenson - No, if you are a deist, you are not a theist. Deists believe in an uncaring creator which created the laws of physics in the universe, and never interacts in any way. Deists use the following story to describe their belief: The watchmaker made the watch, wound it, then left it on the beach and left. He does not take care of the watch, nor listen to it’s prayers, etc.
Theists believe in an interactive god that gives commands, judges, commits genocide possibly, or whatever that particular god or gods seem fit. Deists are definitely not Christians. They don’t believe in the Jesus stories, for instance. Please do not confuse Deist with Theist ever again. Thank you.
"The word 'secular' doesn't appear in the Constitution!"
Indeed. Neither does the phrase, "nuclear bomb." Does that mean the Constitution has nothing to say about your right to own a nuclear bomb? After all, the 2nd amendment says you have a "right to keep and bear arms." So why does everyone think you can be restricted in owning nuclear arms? The 8th only says, "cruel and unusual punishment," but it doesn't define what that means or even give any examples that might help us understand. So where does anybody get off saying that starving prisoners is "cruel and unusual" since the word "starve" or any of its derivatives never appears in the Constitution.
So yes, the word "secular" doesn't appear in the Constitution. However, the 1st amendment is clear that the establishment of religion is forbidden both to Congress and, via the 14th amendment, to the States. And historically, one need only look at the colonies which had established religions to see why this amendment was added. The massacres of Quakers in the United States was not something that the Founders wanted to have repeated.
This is a common tactic of those on the Right, the attitude that the Constitution is somehow a laundry list and if you cannot find the exact words mentioned, then the document has absolutely nothing to say on the subject. This despite the fact that the 9th amendment specifically forbids that method of interpretation:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
The fact that the Constitution doesn't specifically list a certain right doesn't mean it doesn't exist nor that the Constitution doesn't protect it. So since we have an amendment that does expressly forbid the establishment of religion by the governmental power, then the teaching of a religious philosophy in a government-funded school as if it were true rather than as part of a comprehensive course on sociology and/or history is an establishment of religion and expressly forbidden.
Interestingly, "Freedom of Religion" and Christainity, Bible, God, Jesus etc etc don't appear in the Constitution either
The right to stockpile ak-47's, grenades, and flame throwers for the day when your wife divorces you.
it is still legal (at least for now) to own flame throwers... Won't be long before some idiot fucks that up for all of us honest responsible flame thrower owners though. Let's also be clear about the nukes.... Nobody is allowed to have them except the US, but then again we still use napalm and cluster bombs too. Sorry, 'napalm' is such a bad word I mean to say 'incendiary munitions".
@@spaghetti9845 ?????
There're PEOPLE in the united states that uses napalm?????? Where???? It's florida????
Christians love secularism when it concerns a potential mix of government and other religions or belief systems. Look at the time, probably was in Florida, when Christians passed out literature to children so Satanists countered by offering kids Satanic coloring books and then Christians freaked out about it.
Thank you Erik and Jim for holding this guy's ass to the fire in an effort to keep the discussion relevant rather than letting him prattle on with his religious drivel because his reading of the constitution doesn't outright say keep your ideas of a *Sky Daddy* to yourself and leave children in school alone with your religious nonsense.
except the free exercise clause was not binding upon the state until 1952
The word you're looking for is drivel, friend.
I still wish they wouldn’t have conceded the treaty of Tripoli thing. I could tell Jim didn’t want to and I wish he would’ve been allowed to respond
Christians: "Why can't we have prayer and teach the bible in schools?"
Also Christians: "How dare they have kids do yoga in school? This is a violation of the separation of church and state!"
Well you're an Atheist to every god except the one you believe.
How do Christians make any sense in saying things like that? Yoga has nothing to with(or do against)religion. Don't Xtians say some craycray stuff?
Im with Eric on this. We always go back to what these guys from almost 400 years ago thought and act as if they were omniscient and could see into the future. The world as they knew it is completely different.
James Madison said the more you mix the two the more tainted with each they become. Govt. And religion.
@@justanotherdayinthelife9841 It’s hilarious that this guy’s flippant attitude to keep things as is dissolved the moment that the comparison between change versus unchanging. 🤦♂️
Fuck this dude.
Declaration of Independence is not a law based item. It was just a declaration of seperation from England.
Not only that but it never mentions religion and sure as hell doesn't mention Christianity
It's the same with all books/documents fundamentalist religious people read. They think they say what they don't say and they don't think they say what they actually say. How many christians bring up "quotes" from the bible that don't exist?
Declaration of war, technically, isn't it? I can never keep it straight.
Its basically a break up text
My high school had a "Bible as Literature" class.
It also had a "Mythology" class. I took the Mythology class and we read the Iliad and the Odyssey and I did my main project on the Inferno.
I can sorta see why they might put the Bible into its own class simply due to the size of the text, but there has always been part of me that thinks it should have been "Mythology 1" and "Mythology 2" where there would be a more holistic approach regarding mystical movements in societies that included the Bible. Perhaps "Abrahamic Mythologies" and they could get the the Torah, the Bible, and the Koran.
In short, I always felt it was a bit rude to refer to an ancient people's religion as "mythology" while not applying that same standard to modern religions.
Atheists: You should not be able to teach in scools that one religion's ideas are true, but you should be able to teach *about* religions in world religion class or religious literature in literature class.
Christians: So you are saying that the Bible should *not* be allowed in religion class or literary studies?!
🤦♀️
Pretty much
Lol yup
To make it simple, why even bring any religious book to a school? You have your churches, synagogues, and mosques to teach your children that BS, don't you?
Classic christain victim complex.
@@anonymousjohnson976 it's more to show off other cultures, everything except Christianity is likely to be new to anyone state side
This dude needs to read "Founding Myth: How Christian Nationalism is Unamerican" by Andrew Sideil so he can understand the U.S. is not nor never was a Christian nation.
My thoughts exactly!!! Andrew's last name is spelled Seidel.
Teaching religion within a historical context is fine at the University level only, and as long as the aspects of "marketing gods" is not included.
As an Atheist; I've always felt "promoting gods" should be left completely out of the academic realm and should never be experienced by children under the age of 18. Promoting any religion to children should be considered "mental and emotional child abuse" at its core.
Agree!
@@kathyheitchue6069 Thank you Kathy.
I have always been astounded how anyone with any hint of reality and evidence based awareness could be duped into believing that "gods exist." Somehow I could never wrap my mind around this absurd notion without analyzing the ludicrous, supernatural claims. I became an Atheist at about the age of 14; it wasn't rocket science. It's all about data, evidence and reasoning; let alone all of the immoral aspects that religion's promote.
I think that it's important that we teach comparative religion as part of high school (and possibly some middle school) Social Studies/History/Literature classes, just to provide context to scenarios and stories.
@@lnsflare1 I agree; just omit any of the supernatural gods / events nonsense as well as the theology / dogma.
Wow
He doesn't want a discussion. He wants to give a speech.
I like how Eric and Tim have to repeat the same question over and over and the guy keeps accusing them of changing the topic.
Also separation of church and state was done to help Christians because the theocracies in Europe have a long history of persecuting the "wrong type" of Christians.
Edit: just got to the part where he thinks the first 10 Amendments aren't amendments. Holy shit
He just doesn't want to understand that they are called amendments to make it clear we are allowed to change them so he can pretend they are Devine without justifying why that should be
@@ninjaturtletyke3328 also he makes the argument from tradition for one of the biggest breaks from tradition in history.
Monarchy is the traditional and assumed government of the Bible.
@@TwoForFlinchin1 ya it's a conjunction of argumentive problems. Idk if I would want to argue the founding myth or the fallacy.
I think I would just recommend they read the book the founding myth and then argue the point that's important like eric
Ronnie’s best friend is a man made of straw.
Yes your right.. I know this guy...This guy T.E. His Name is Ronnie who is a complete narcissistic self-centered asshole. Ronnie channel is called TrueEmperialism @ueEmpiricism on CZcams. He thinks because he reads certain books that goes with his personal confirmation bias. Because he is in a Christian apologist any young earth creationist. Who twists in manipulates scientific books for his own personal Christian agenda which is a bunch of pseudoscience. He acts like he knows science and comes up with a bunch of dumb creationist pseudoscience crap based out of no empirical evidence. The guy read books on biology but he has never been in a laboratory and has never done Real laboratory experiments nor has he worked with professionals in the fields of evolutionary biology genetics or anything else. He just thinks he read a book, on Particular scientific subjects and thinks he’s more smarter than the scientific community.
This guy is a complete arrogant idiot. I’m calling this douche bag out. He’s been a dishonest prick to so many people. And he’s trying to come in is being something else. This guy is a fraud and a dishonest human being with no credentials to support any of his bullshit.
I wonder if T.E. is looking at these comments and wondering "If all these people are calling me an idiot and telling me I can't connect the dots during an argument.... am I truly an idiot who can't connect the dots in an argument?
jason Butler TE would say that everyone against his ‘argument’ must be wrong, as he thinks he couldn’t possibly be wrong! I despise people like him, as there is no rationality and intellectual honesty with them - they just think they are right, and either keep on spouting their nonsense or they run away!
Nah i feel like at that point he'd pull the religious persecution card.
Bryana Perry and any theist who disagrees with him will just be children of Satan or something
No. Christians have no self awareness or capability of any self-reflection that would refute their god myth beliefs.
No, the thought that he might be wrong never crossed his mind
The reason the Bible should not be in school is the same reason the Qur'an should not be in school, or the Tora, or any other religion's holy book.
I made that point to a co-worker recently, and he actually claimed that those religions weren't in this country when it was first founded, so I guess he thinks they don't count.
Though I have a feeling there might have been Jewish people in this country when it was founded. And the Africans who were kidnapped and brought here as slaves might have included all kinds of tribal religions and maybe even a few Muslims.
By the way, I think that Jim did a great job here. He was able to summarize Eric's points in a way which, when T.E. didn't respond, highlighted the caller's dishonesty. He also acted as a good moderator and muted at exactly the right moment. One thing though: his laptop webcam keeps wobbling around and makes me seasick!
We had bible in the classroom (I'm English). It didn't go well. Straightforward questions were asked, the responses ridiculed and we were asked to bring some homework from other subjects after that.
I'm English too an we had a class called r.e (religious education) but never once were we ever taught that any of it was true. We were taught the bible was to be taken metaphorically!
@@davidwright9335 Our lot struggled between The Everyman and the 1611. They weren't right bright.
I know this guy...This guy T.E. His Name is Ronnie who is a complete narcissistic self-centered asshole. Ronnie channel is called TrueEmperialism @ueEmpiricism on CZcams. He thinks because he reads certain books that goes with his personal confirmation bias. Because he is in a Christian apologist any young earth creationist. Who twists in manipulates scientific books for his own personal Christian agenda which is a bunch of pseudoscience. He acts like he knows science and comes up with a bunch of dumb creationist pseudoscience crap based out of no empirical evidence. The guy read books on biology but he has never been in a laboratory and has never done Real laboratory experiments nor has he worked with professionals in the fields of evolutionary biology genetics or anything else. He just thinks he read a book, on Particular scientific subjects and thinks he’s more smarter than the scientific community.
This guy is a complete arrogant idiot. I’m calling this douche bag out. He’s been a dishonest prick to so many people. And he’s trying to come in is being something else. This guy is a fraud and a dishonest human being with no credentials to support any of his bullshit.
To the Englishmen on this thread: Is it true that Parliament has three seats reserved for the C of E?
@@Sekhubara Bishops have seats in the House Of Lords. A hideous anachronism. A 'higher' chamber of crooks and inbreds.
the amount of patience that eric is showing is insane lol. my blood would boil
Wow! Never heard Eric blow his top before. And this guy was tap-dancing!
Why not teach superstitions.
That way all religions are included.
Waste of time. You really want a kid to learn about Zeus?
bible thumpers resist 'comparative religion'. They want only 'their' beliefs taught.
@@cnault3244 oh yes, he is. but that is another topic.
@@cnault3244 he didn't, as far as i remember. but Zeus did kill people.
and he raped a lot of women.
This guy T.E. Name is Ronnie and he is a complete narcissistic self-centered asshole. Ronnie channel is called TrueEmpiricism @ueEmpiricism on CZcams. He thinks because he reads certain books that goes with his personal confirmation bias. Because he is in a Christian apologist any young earth creationist. Who twists in manipulates scientific books for his own personal Christian agenda which is a bunch of pseudoscience. He acts like he knows science and comes up with a bunch of dumb creationist pseudoscience crap based out of no empirical evidence. The guy read books on biology but he has never been in a laboratory and has never done Real laboratory experiments nor has he worked with professionals in the fields of evolutionary biology genetics or anything else. He just thinks he read a book and he’s better than everybody else. This guy is a complete arrogant idiot. I’m calling this douche bag out. He’s been a dishonest prick to so many people. And he’s trying to come in is being something else. This guy is a fraud and a dishonest human being with no credentials to support any of his bullshit.
the Constitution does not say that we were founded as a Christian nation. It declares that we have the freedom to choose to follow a religion or the choose freedom FROM religion. That was a huge part of why the founders left England and their state sponsored religion.
The idea of secular defines the US Constitution as it is not a religious document. It is not the rules set out for running a religious government.
Since TE seems to have a bugaboo about the word "secular" not appearing in the Constitution, I should point out that the word "religion" and "religious" only appear twice in the entire document (once each)...both times to specifically deny it a place in governmental activities:
Article VI: "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
"
1st Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
It's worth to argue against those who claim this is "a Christian nation", since they hilariously ignore that the Declaration of Independence that they so gleefully quote, in its Deistic proclamation that man's rights were given directly to them by the Creator, without acknowledging that the reason we wrote that is because George III claimed the Divine Right of Kings, which stated that man's rights came from God THROUGH THE KING and to the king's subjects by power of the king.
The Declaration was a rejection of that premise and a statement that governments were made by man for man, and that our rights were "inalienable" and inherent, to be secured by governments by the will of the people governed. It is an explicit rejection of any Christian nation, and indeed the very concept of a linked church and state power.
It is among the greatest of Humanist documents. America is not a Christian nation, and deliberately so. Many of your Founders were active opponents of what has become right-wing, evangelical Christianity, today, and many even might have called themselves atheists, today... but that does not mean it's not also true that for many of the men in that room, their faith drove them to enshrine the principles of liberty that protected both their rights and the rights of the groups they sneered at, theologically.
You know the famous "wall of separation between church and state" that Jefferson penned to the Danbury Baptist Association?
Well, have you ever gone and seen what the DBA wrote to him, to prompt such a response? It's one of my favorite historical documents: they were religious leaders who understood all too well the dangers of church-state entanglement, and who wrote to plead with Jefferson to make sure that one sect could not dictate its theology to others (as Creationists do when they try to have their version of Christianity taught in schools, despite the fact that most Christian denominations base their theology around an acceptance of evolution and an old earth, and don't want their kids taught fundamentalist Christianity at school any more than atheist parents do), or pretend to be the arbiters of God's Will (tm) in law.
It's really quite a brilliant work.
@@dhwyll also the Constitution fails to mention Jesus or Christianity even once.
@@guytheincognito4186 that's part of it also. How many baptists would want their kids taught catholic, mormon, or other not true christian [tm] faiths at public schools?
In essence it's the same fairy tale but with a different flavor.
Would any of us want jehovah's witnesses setting health policy? No blood transfusions even to save a life. Yet somehow the anti choice movement is fine with their own flavor of religious healthcare policy for people who aren't members of their cult.
@@JosephKeenanisme Abington School District v. Schempp which rules that compelling students to read from the Bible in public schools is unconstitutional was brought not by an atheist but by a Unitarian. The development of the Catholic school system in the US was done because of the heavily Protestant nature of the public schools. US educational history is dominated by one sect not liking the presence of another sect's religiosity in the curriculum. Atheists didn't "kick god out of the classroom."
Other theists did.
18:47 he claims that if muslims want to teach their kids their beliefs in a public classroom thats fine. So is he trying to say that there should be a separate class for every religion in each school? Even with Christianity which bible? Which of the thousands of denominations are they basing the class on?
Now what if the classes arent separate. I'm sure he would be perfectly fine with his child attending a muslin classroom teaching him the Islamic religion is true. You open pandoras box when taking away separation of church and state. Because this caller has a very specific idea in mind. It's okay to teach religious texts as truth in classrooms as long as each book is taught in separate classes to kids that already follow that religion. But there is no guarantee that is what would happen. And then you have no leg to stand on in opposition if you aren't happy with the results
Lol if they want to make sure that each religion is taught in a separate classroom to the correct students, they could just teach the NON-religious aspects of education in a shared classroom, and then divide the kids up and teach the religious aspects of their classes in separate buildings...
... such as in the CHURCH down the street. And the parents can take them there just to make sure that no mistakes are made. 😋
So... you know... basically the parents could just take their kids to church on Sundays.
Dane Miller brilliant! You need to invent these things called...churches did you say? Do it! And then you could make millions! Tax free money!
Maybe they could *gasp* send their kids to a private Christian school
I don't think this caller is even thinking about separate religious classes for every child who believes in different religions. He's only thinking about his own denomination of Christianity, and that the class would be mandatory for all children regardless of their religious beliefs.
@@dougs7367 Yes, I keep saying, if god answers their prayers, then god should be able to get their kids into Christians schools. If it doesn't happen, it must mean god doesn't want it to happen.
Frog voice has returned. And his arguments have not gotten any better. The Supreme Court has clearly stated that religion does not belong in the classroom. The most recent case Dover, is an example. And since the whole constitution is secular, it never mentions god or the Bible.
We are a secular society, and a argument from history, is a fallacy. His argument is just one special pleading.
Jay B thanks. This theist does not realize that our country always has been a secular nation. God and the Bible is never mentioned in the constitution. And the creator in the declaration is a deist concept.
Also which version of Christianity should be taught. That creates a whole new can of worms.
They allways have to add in these specific boundaries and they only want to talk about these singular things because they have limited resources to respond to issues. Any time you stray outside the line they draw then they dont wanna speak about it and say it doesnt connect with the conversation. Same people that cry cherry picking when an atheist quoting scripture.
It's like he though he called into the T.E. Show and not Talk Heathen or something.
Thanks for what you guys do ❤️
This guy should read the founding myth
All theists should.
This guy T.E. Name is Ronnie and he is a complete narcissistic self-centered asshole. Ronnie channel is called TrueEmpiricism @ueEmpiricism on CZcams. He thinks because he reads certain books that goes with his personal confirmation bias. Because he is in a Christian apologist any young earth creationist. Who twists in manipulates scientific books for his own personal Christian agenda which is a bunch of pseudoscience. He acts like he knows science and comes up with a bunch of dumb creationist pseudoscience crap based out of no empirical evidence. The guy read books on biology but he has never been in a laboratory and has never done Real laboratory experiments nor has he worked with professionals in the fields of evolutionary biology genetics or anything else. He just thinks he read a book and he’s better than everybody else. This guy is a complete arrogant idiot. I’m calling this douche bag out. He’s been a dishonest prick to so many people. And he’s trying to come in is being something else. This guy is a fraud and a dishonest human being with no credentials to support any of his bullshit.
@@ThinkOutSideBXxs110 I know the type. I watch a lot of flat Earth conspiracy nonsense and other con people. It's sad that people stoop to that level of purposeful misunderstanding
I'm currently reading it. It's mind blowing
I know these are difficult times but Eric is off his game at the moment. A few of the callers are getting under his skin too easily. Eric if you're reading this I am not criticising you, I am concerned that you are under stress and might need to give yourself a break.
That said I hate callers who are on a track and want to get their talking points out, not have a conversation. It has to be an honest back and forth to be enjoyable. These one track ponys (who doesn't love a mixed metaphor?) are just painful to listen to.
I think that one of the reasons he's frustrated because Eric wants Talk Heathen to be a different format than AXP, with AXP being short calls and TH being longer-duration conversations. So, he doesn't want to hang up on callers. However, this desire comes into conflict with callers like T.E., who are not interested in having honest conversations. When such callers have been identified, I think that best way that Eric can handle it is either to drop the call immediately a la Matt, or to use the mute button in such a way that the caller cannot even attempt to control the conversation like T.E. tried to.
Also just like everyone else, we got to remember Eric is still a person and he is also being affected by things like COVID-19 and stuff in his life.
As well, if you looked at some of the recent callers he has been dealing with; they have all been more annoying and blocking than even usual so it is understandable why he might be stressted.
I hope he gets some rest too though
Does anyone know why Jamie is not on this show anymore?
@@N8BALLSACK
Yeah that Christian guy was Faking hard, made want to strangel him every time he said "i'm being polite please don't swear at me" etc.
Eric is sick of these mental midgets
That does it. Eric, it took me awhile of following your show and wonderful fellow speakers to decide that you're a little tough to take sometimes. I fkn love it. You pretty much always circle around and set your points in cement. Rock on gentlemen!!!
I'm an atheist. I will teach the Bible. I will point out the contradictions and inconsistencies. I will point out the evil and ridiculous parts f the Bible. I will talk about how many religious groups have misinterpreted this Bible. The fundamentalists will not be happy with my Bible class.
One of the reason for the First Amendment was civil order. The centuries prior to the constitution saw almost constant religious warfare and oppression. Protestants killed Catholics. Catholics killed Protestants. Protestants killed Protestants. The reason many people came to America was to escape religious persecution.
If someone wants to bring the Bible into the classroom, which Bible will be brought in? Will it be a Protestant Bible or a Catholic Bible? Or an Eastern Rite (Orthodox) Bible? They are all different. Do we discuss gospels which are not part of the canon? Do we teach Gnostic texts, for example? Do we recognize that the "Old Testament" actually misstates and distorts the original Jewish texts? Do we include the Book of Mormon?
TE, you seem incapable of joining the dots.
Does not even see.the dots
Andrewsarchus TE doesn’t even see that there are no dots to even try and not see!! I hate dishonest and disingenuous callers like this - they just want their beliefs to be spouted, and there is no way in hell that he would be happy to see other religions being taught as truth, but he just says that to stop any more questions that he will be unable to argue against!
He’s an expert at moving the dots.
This guy T.E. Name is Ronnie and he is a complete narcissistic self-centered asshole. Ronnie channel is called TrueEmpiricism @ueEmpiricism on CZcams. He thinks because he reads certain books that goes with his personal confirmation bias. Because he is in a Christian apologist any young earth creationist. Who twists in manipulates scientific books for his own personal Christian agenda which is a bunch of pseudoscience. He acts like he knows science and comes up with a bunch of dumb creationist pseudoscience crap based out of no empirical evidence. The guy read books on biology but he has never been in a laboratory and has never done Real laboratory experiments nor has he worked with professionals in the fields of evolutionary biology genetics or anything else. He just thinks he read a book and he’s better than everybody else. This guy is a complete arrogant idiot. I’m calling this douche bag out. He’s been a dishonest prick to so many people. And he’s trying to come in is being something else. This guy is a fraud and a dishonest human being with no credentials to support any of his bullshit.
@@ThinkOutSideBXxs110 I dont disagree, but I think I've seen this very good comment elsewhere. Copy and paste will defeat your good intentions, tho. Makes you less credible, if that's what's happening
I love Eric's voice!
You guys have a lot more patience than I do with these people.
The 'Constitution' is a secular document. The Declaration of Independence is not a law.
Its astonishing how so many callers don't even try to to have a conversation. They're just planning on what to say next and not listening to what is being said/asked
Dont believe
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
Buddha quotes (Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.)
Well said. That is why I have more respect for Buddhism than all the other religions
My mindset is, and always will be
"Do you want me to force my athiesm on you? If the answer is yes, great. I've got a lot to say. If the answer is no, also great. If you don't want me forcing my belief on you, then don't force yours onto me or anyone I care about."
When Eric takes his glasses off, he's about to hurt some feelings😅
As some one that took religious history classes in college as electives, I find no issue with teaching religion if it is history, literature, and general knowledge. My Abrahamic religion class was chronological history of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. My Eastern religion class was split between all of those religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shino, etc.) All they were was a chronological break down with key characters and social impacts on their regions. These classes were also given by religion professors that kept their personal opinion out of the discussion and only talked about historical and philosophical arguments.
I have a very hard time believing that a k-12 school teacher would be able to keep their bias out of these discussions. (Yes, I know there are genuine people that can but in some super religious areas they are few and far between)
Not to mention, the k-12 public school system already has enough on it's plate and doesn't need to teach religions. Stick to STEM, relevant history, health, arts and PE. If you want your kid to learn about your religion like dominant populations in any religious society does, go to your location of worship.
The guy said that because of freedom of religion, christians and muslims have the right to teach their religion in public schools and atheists should respect that. What he failed to realize is that by that reasoning there would be necessary to include more than 2000 different religions and denominations in existence. And also failed to realize that freedom of religion includes the right to not having one.
Also, teaching religion in school takes time away from teaching what is needed for functioning in society. There are plenty of churches and 5 religious channels on my cable TV to learn about religion.
I went to a public school and we studied the Bible, but we studied it as a work of classical literature. I don't have a problem with that context. In the same class we examined the Iliad, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and Le Morte d'Arthur. All were taught as being equal, i.e. works of literature that taught about culture, not texts filled with divine truths.
I went through the public education system in the 70's. I support the public education system wholeheartedly, BUT if any single teacher decides to inject their religion into the decision of grades of any student, the system crumbles...just a bit. Point in fact--in 1974 I was held up against a wall (with all the other students) on the first day of 5th grade and each was asked "which church do you attend." I didn't know I was atheist, I just knew I didn't go to church and I really didn't think those who did took it seriously. I mean, I was reading Tolkien, my friends might be reading the Bible, or watching The Courtship of Eddie's Father. I saw it all as fiction, with some moral teachings in it; more or less. So when the teacher comes to me, I say "I don't know." My teacher pressed and asked so 'what am I.' I say, not really understanding the question, "I guess I am nothing." What else can I say. I am in 5th grade. But I am surrounded by eyes at this point. It got worse in that class, but that was the introduction. That should never happen in public schools.
I'm cool with teaching about the Bible in schools as long as they teach every other religion as well.
If that was the case they'd be no time to learn anything else.
I think they should just stick to teaching their BS to their kids in their churches, synagogues, and mosques.
I've never seen Eric so easily flustered as he was in this episode. He almost never loses his cool on the show.
Eric was on FIRE. Respect.
I did 4 years hard time in a private elementary school (grades 2-5, Waldorf education). The majority of the school staff and student body were Christian, and bible stories were part of the curriculum, but despite their best efforts in retrospect that was when the seeds of doubt that lead to my atheism were planted. The two main factors were, one, that they taught us about the Norse and Greek gods the year before bible stories and two, I was already obsessed with dinosaurs by the time I arrived there and they flatly refused to discuss them, or answer my questions about where they fit into the biblical account. The latter culminated in a parent teacher conference where I was told to knock it off because fellow students were asking inconvenient questions in class as well as at home about dinosaurs. I’m in favor of the Bible being studied along side Greek mythology in public schools. Even if they try to step on the establishment clause it will only take one kid with a smart phone and a problem with authority to shit on their parade.
I taught religion in the classroom for 8 years to grade 7, 8 and 9 students following the curriculum guidelines as it taught about other cultures and general religions beliefs....NO holy books were permitted and my beliefs (Christian at that time) were not interjected to the students at any time.
this caller should read 'the founding myth' by andrew seidel.
When I was at school in the 1940s every morning before lessons we had assembly in the main hall and sang hymns, every day, we all said the Lords Prayer then by 9.30 we started lessons in our classes.
The 1940’s also had segregation and women were subjugated to basically second class citizens.
What was your point?
@@steveswangler6373 The point being I miss those times, I never saw women being treated as second class citizens they were always treated with the utmost respect. As a minor I was taught that politeness must always be show to everyone especially ladies. Life was much slower than this madcap way of living where everybody is rushing around like headless chickens, why? your not going anywhere. Death awaits you, and that is a future of absolute nothingness.
The patience of the host is astounding good job guys!
Meanwhile the Japanese students are busy learning silly things like advanced math and science and their about 20 years ahead of us technologically speaking.
I don't know if this is the right platform to say this but...Damn i'm happy today. I kicked the crap out of my man-servant two days ago and he did not die. Still a place for me in heaven?
If he's okay, grab a halo from the bucket over there
This guy doesn't just regard other religions as false or wrong, he also regards other Christians as wrong. Only he has it right. And because of that, everyone must do it his way.
"Talking logic and common sense will not get through my belief that the bible should be in public schools, because I believe our tradition is Christian and want everybody to learn to be a Christian".
Trouble is, T.E., there are millions of people who don't want your fantasy religion to have anything to do with their lives.
True empiricism at it again!
*isn't the baby jeebus ALWAYS in the classrooms? also in the washrooms, showers, bedrooms, murder sites, rape sites, grocery store, gas stations etc etc*
I've seen several similar videos and these two people I think are the best pairing.
I’m fine with having the Bible in schools, but only to stop chairs with misshapen legs from wobbling.
"hey, look, in this 200 years old paper i found some reasons to promote the bible in schools!" Why don't we hunt witches anymore? It was tradition!!!
"We shall make no laws with respect to the establishment of a religion"
That sounds pretty secular to me 🤔
Indeed it does...
New viewer here 👋🏻 I’m aware this channel isn’t called “talk constitution” but I really would’ve liked to hear your response to his treaty of Tripoli argument.
Just because you may get impatient with arguments you’ve heard a million times, I feel like new atheists and new viewers would benefit from hearing the engagement so we can develop better talking points when dealing with family members who bring up points similar to his all the time.
When you’re in the box, you can only describe what’s in the box.
Except for those goodwilled creatures who are waiting for’ the claw’ ( Toystory )
So much to address from this caller...
First, Separation of Church and State was envisioned by Deists and liberal/enlightened Christians, not atheists. It was not just an idea Jefferson came up with dealing with the Danbury Baptists or in idea he held alone, in fact James Madison (the father of The Constitution) used the term many times and stated that such a separation was clearly spelled out in the 1st amendment. "Freedom of Religion" doesn't appear in the 1st amendment either but that's what it impies. And you cannot have freedom of religion (or pretty much any freedom for that matter) without separating religion from government.
Bottom line, The United States was not founded as a Christian nation, rather it was founded by people who FLED FROM Christian nations.
I've heard this caller so many times. Just waits for his turn to talk, doesn't listen, and sidesteps every question. christian
He'd excel in rhetoric, that's for sure
In middle school history, the class both covered early human history as well as went over early religions such as Judaism, and in both cases the teacher said "You don't have to believe any of this, but you do have to know it."
There's a stark difference between a teacher discussing the Bible and saying "This is what they believe/d" and "This is what you should believe." There's not a lot of atheists out there who would object to a religious studies class. In fact, many of them would be in favor of it because one of the best ways to come to the conclusion that religions are false is realizing there's other religions and understanding that people believe in them for the same reasons they hold their faith and believe just as ardently.
But what they do object to is trying to teach religious explanations for things in science classes. Many religious have many different creation myths but that has nothing to do with what we actually know about biology and what people should know in order to get an understanding of how biology works. I'd even go as far as to argue it's not worth teaching about Lamarck in biology class even if it's used to compare and contrast with Darwin's theory.
But if creationists are so ardent about ensuring that creationism has some place in biology classroom, I will allow this compromise. That it's pointed out that creationism was a mythology people used in order to explain the origin of complex life's diversity before we discovered evolution and in religious studies, we dedicate time to the evolution of early Judaism from polytheism to monotheism because I don't think a lot of people are aware that Yahweh has not always been the top dog and the only one.
For the same reason we don't hang up garlic just in case Vampires exist. 🙄😒
Nowhere in the Constitution is the god of Abraham or Jesus mentioned. Case closed.
TE wouldn't let the conversation go towards how to determine best educational practices for all, but rather was intent on "proving" his version of history. He is likely some form of fundamentalist christian. Fundamentalism seeks to follow what the Bible literally says with little care or examination as to whether what it says is good, helpful or moral. TE used a similar logical path to form his argument. The founders were christian, therefore the Bible i.e.the christian religion should be taught as a moral authority in the public schools with no consideration whether this teaching is good for all or legal.
Likely?!
99% of callers are deluded buffoons.
So is this one.
Remember, psychopath are very adept at speaking calmly.
Until they blow...
James Madison provided clarification for the first amendment himself. He wanted to avoid the establishment of any one religion by the federal government. As the States receive their funds from the Fed government, if there are classes in public schools who actively teach any one of those religions as true over others - that would conflict with the Establishment Clause. By all means, families and churches may indoctrinate their own children, but they may not do it on the fed government's dime.
The Bhagavad Gita, Koran or Bible can be part of teaching material in history or literature classes as a reference together with any other text secular professors may consider pertinent for a particular explanation.
So this guy has no concept of the First Amendment. The government (federal, state, local) and government officials aren't allowed to establish a religion. A public school teacher claiming the Old Testament and New Testament is true in a classroom is establishing Christianity as a religion and favoring it over other religions or no religion.
I think he does understand that but is just dishonest. I've seen so many Christians blatantly lying in debates and pretending they don't understand what was said.
@Jason Collins Correct. The separation of church and state phrase comes from a letter from Jefferson describing exactly what the First Amendment does...
Rambling Ronnie got DESTORYED on this exact topic by Dragnauct and crew so he went to find some new people to talk to about it that hes hoping know less about the topic. Pathetic.
I remeber in 1967 we did a somester in school on this book. Actually read it outloud and took tests on it. I got in trouble because even at 12 years old I laughed at parts that I thought were added as a joke. Come to find out there are people walking out in public that believed that stuff and want to be in charge of our daily lives.
My family's Catholic and those religion classes use to do a number on my GPA. It was all so laughably stupid I couldn't even pretend to take it seriously. I remember the priests teaching the classes taking me out of the room for a private conversation multiple times over the years.
I would not allow anyone to teach me lies, over truth.
Where is the brick wall to hit my head upon. The caller just doesn't get it.
The wall is right there...between church and state.
The Bible can be in school, no problem.
Just put it into literature, mythology.
That’s the category they put it in at my university. Actually an interesting class, still wouldn’t believe in that bullshit even though half of my class was already indoctrinated into this garbage.
@@Scalesti Your university does it correct. In my school and probably country it's also in that category.
It’s freedom for all religions
I've seen & heard TE for years now, he's the typical internet christian apologist, makeing pretend he's an expert on any subject he feels like commenting on and insists on playing word games. Other wise known as the living embodiment of the Dunning Kruger effect.
I can't help but notice that conservatives are unable to abstract from the specific to the general.
This caller was unable to abstract his founding argument and erics slavery argument to the point where he could see the parallels.
I don’t know how ‘conservative’ was gleaned from this, a lot of Christians aren’t conservatives at all I have family members who are Christians and big leftists they go to some hippy church up in Boulder Colorado with the lesbian pastor.
@@davids11131113 true. But progressive Christians usually don't argue, that there is no separation between church and state.
He’s just a whacko who thinks he’s an intelligent interlocutor that’s all.
Eric I do admire your patience with these callers. I'm not sure I cold be as patient as you.
TE's argument is "if I don't like what the text says I'm going to pretend that it means the opposite, and if stuff I like isn't in the text I'm going to pretend that it's there by implication."
And he ran away from every discussion of fairness and equal treatment because it's clear that he doesn't WANT fairness or equal treatment, he wants the government to give his religion special treatment.
Leave nonsense religion out of the class because kids get enough at home and church..
There is no point with this guy.
Tin foil hat to deflect reality
This channel is so addictive. People are crazy!
T.E. - There is no question that the framers of the Constitution clearly intended that there be no religious entanglements in the body politic. Article VI specifies that “no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Public schools are a part of the Public Trust. It could not be more clear.
Eric is making an irrelevant and over complicated argument. Jim is on point.
Maybe you just don't understand what Eric is saying.
We have placed restrictions on movies for graphic violence. We do this to prevent children being exposed to sex, violence, etc. However, it is fine to expose them to religious graphic content on a weekly basis. Just a thought.
Eric Murphy , are you alright, Bro? Love what you do!! You seem, like myself and many, a little off game. Sending virtual hugs, fist bumps or "lets grab a beer", across the miles and COVID-19 laden air.
The classroom *IS* the State. That's where T.E. is confusing things. Teachers are representatives of the State.
This is a perfect example of someone who is not actually there to have a conversation. He is literally waiting for them to stop talking so he can make his next point. His inability to understand the slavery analogy as an analogy instead of a change of topic was painful.