Awesome well explained video! Im definitely getting a CSV. I have a pressure tank system (well x trol professional) 80 gal. Way oversized for the house but with a csv the pressure drop goes away,outstanding! This vid has excellent detail for the novice or trained professional (maintenance mech for large steel corp.) Thanx again for the info.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 I deleted my post for 2 reasons, I have only seen videos of why not to have a csv, They can be misinformation since I noticed a few sketchy things that make you doubt truth or lie. Common Sense tells you if you return the same water in a small test tank and cycle a pump, it's going to heat up so going to investigate further before making a statement that may not be right. Second, I do notice a big amp drop after start up so you may be right, keeping it running may allow it to run better and longer, Personal experience with jet pumps, I notice you can get double the life by just letting it run and I can say that with truth since I did just that, my old jet system never shut off on purpose, got tired of changing pressure switches and even a small issue, shut down, clear system, fix issue, waste time priming lines and rinse/repeat, I set it to run constant and had little issue's plus it stayed cooler, I switched to submersible and kept the same set up except my pump works so good, it fills the 30 gallon tank so fast it barely ever runs for 15 seconds every couple hours unless you use washer/tub/shower. Even then it barely cuts on, But if your csv does what it says, pump barely will ever run at even 50%, I would guess like jet pump, draw less power, never trip the pressure switch and still keep 33psi, the only question I have is what happens to back pressure from not using water, would that not build back pressure? My jet pump returned water in a loop but the sub has no return, what happens to back pressure? Pump would be pushing water with no where to go if nothing is being used.
@@Klemin2012 Thanks. You are starting to understand. There is no water being recirculated. If you are not using the minimum 1 GPM coming through the CSV, then the 1 GPM fills the pressure tank until the pump is shut off. Jet pumps don't drop much in amps, but are air cooled motors and doesn't make any difference on water flow for cooling. The back pressure will be as much as your pump can build when thinking the well is deeper, which is how the CSV controls flow. But no pump can build more pressure than it can stand. Back pressure is a good thing as that is what makes the amps drop and the motor to run cooler.
Excellent explanation of CSV. I was torn between CSV or VFD system for my new home and this has helped me make my decision. Thank you Cycle Stop Valves!
Hey its good to see you folks here, I bought two systems for chicken houses back in 07 , smooth running and honestly I have had no problems with this setup other than my plumbing, but I was moving some water with those 8lb birds. I'm going to add your valve to my house today borrowing one from the farm since I'm no longer in operation. I blame the bank, but I'm a deplorable so...but I got good water.
Very good illustration and explanation. Thank you. I understood the concept very well but in trying to explain it verbally to others when asked why I have such a small pressure tank, I get blank stares but showing this video clearly explains the concept.
I know the blank stare you are talking about. To be such a simple valve the CSV has a complicated explanation and a hundred ways to use it. I have tried for 25 years to find a better way to explain it. I am glad the animation video helped. :)
I am looking to make an irrigation system for my orchard and garden. I am also going to add a few hydrants along the way. I want to pull water out of my creek and was looking at different setups. I have a good pump and old bladder from an old setup. With this Valve, do I still need to use a bladder tank? what is the point of the tank if the valve bypasses the tank?
Brilliant animation. I live in an area that is close to the reservoir and the pressure is within spec but only just. I am thinking of installing a pressure booster system.
Thank you for adding the back pressure valve in the illustration. People need to know/see that there is excessive back pressure being restricted to this side of the pumping system. I know you have "proven" that this back pressure will do less damage to the pump than damage to the motor from more cycling, but this back pressure can get in excess of 150psi... Good valves though, I use them in a few different applications.
There can never be "excessive" backpressure with a Cycle Stop Valve. The CSV itself cannot handle "excessive" backpressure. The only time you would have excessive backpressure is if you have a 100' deep well with a pump designed for say 500'. And that is not going to happen because the CSV will not even work in an application like that. The CSV will only work with less than 125 PSI differential pressure. So if you have the CSV set for 50 PSI, there cannot be more than 175 PSI coming from the pump. Many pump companies want you to think the CSV causes "excessive" backpressure. They don't want you to get the benefits of a CSV, because it will make your pump last longer. So they try to scare people talking about "excessive" backpressure, which in reality CANNOT happen.
Interesting device, sounds like a special kind of pressure regulator. If I had to make an educated guess: It is like an adjustable high flow regulator (set to 50psi in this example), with a secondary, very restricted path (1gpm) that bypasses the regulator. This bypass path only allows pressure on the output side of the regulator to gain more then the regulator setting when the flow is less then 1gpm, and is critical in making this work. Very clever!
Thank you. Yeah so simple it is scary. Lol! We tried to see these to all the pump companies back in the early 90's. Took us several years to find out they blacklisted the CSV. Pump companies said the CSV is a disruptive product as it makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks. Wow! Found something that makes pumps work better and last longer and the pump companies are doing everything in their power to discredit us and come up with variable speed pumps or Masscontrol flow switch controllers that don't make pumps last forever like a CSV does. Notice you don't hear from any of our customers from 20-30 years ago? The CSV made their pump systems work so well and last so long they forget they even have a pump system. When water comes out the faucet everytime you open it, you will never have to think about your pump system again.
My main concern on the Cycle Stop Valve is the increase in backpressure. I've read many positive reviews on your website about them but also many of those same positive reviews have had fittings blow apart and or leaks due to the increased back pressure between the pump and pressure tank. Although I see the need to try and reduce pump cycle's the last thing I want to do is have to dig up a water line or pull the well pump due to fitting failure from the increase in back pressure. My Franklin Electric Pump lasted 23 years before needing to be replaced on the traditional pressure tank and switch system.
Back pressure is good for the pump, cannot be any more than your pump can make, and the CSV itself has a limit. I only know of one idiot who blew off the incoming pipe, he just posted it on Amazon, which we do not do business with, so they keep that post up top. Lol. If your pump lasted 23 years without a CSV, it would last 40-50 years with one. We have only done this about a million times over the last 30 years. So, look at your pump curve, figure out how little back pressure it can build, get over your concern, and start enjoying strong constant pressure instead of seeing that pressure go up and down over and over and over.
wow thanks! My well pump is always on and off when I water my lawn and shower and stuff. I thought something was wrong with my tank but now I know it doesn't hold anything. I need this bad. the pump was replaced 8 years ago when I bought the house and don't know if a variable pump in the ground.
Even the new variable speed pumps just turn on and off all the time you are using water. But if you have a regular pressure switch it is probably not a variable speed pump and the Cycle Stop Valve will solve your problem and give you strong constant pressure in the shower.
Thank you for the well informed video. What is your opinion on a whole house filter with a CSV? Should a filter be installed before the pump, between the pump and CSV, or after the CSV?
Wonderful video. I’d love to see a video with a holding tank and dual float switches. We are buying a home with a well that produces 3.6 GPM. The pressure tank is bad and we have to do some work. I wanted to have a 400 gallon plastic holding tank in the basement with a jet pump. Any information on this kind of system would be greatly appreciated. I love the animation. Thanks again.
I don't have a video but I do have several drawings of a cistern pump set up. Here is a link to one in my forum. forum.cyclestopvalves.com/index.php?topic=1840.0
I’m using. Red jacket jet pump with the pressure control valve attached to the pump and the pressure line going to the prop housing housing, would i have to change this to make the csv work. Move after the CSV valve.
I have a well with a submersible pump but water comes out for only about 7-12 minutes depending on the time of the year. I am wanting to add a cabin on my property and plan on burying a water cistern near the house. I am going to buy a timer switch for the well pump so that it comes on multiple times per day and will fill into the cistern. Since I am only there on weekends or maybe once a month I should be able to capture enough water in cistern to service my cabin, sprinkler system and maybe a drip irrigation system. My plan is to put a submersible pump in the cistern and run it to a little pump house and then out from there. Your video makes sense and I am thinking I need your kit with the CSV. I have limited knowledge of these types of systems so I am wondering what type of submersible pump I need for my cistern (HP and GPM) to make all of this work using your system. Thanks.
How many GPM's do you have running for 7-12 minutes to pump the well dry? Even a well that only makes 1 GPM can still give you 1440 gallons every day. You need a Cycle Sensor for the well pump to protect it from running dry, and it will be your timer as it is built into the Cycle Sensor. You can use a Cycle Sensor on the cistern pump as well, so it shuts off if the cistern is run dry. Because of the price many people are using the 1HP, 33 GPM, Hallmark pumps in cisterns. I prefer the 230V version. Used in combination with our PK1A kit you can have all the water you want at a strong constant pressure. See this link. forum.cyclestopvalves.com/index.php?topic=1841.0
We have kits that come with either a 4.5 or a 10 gallon size tank, which works for most applications. 1HP or smaller pump running at 40/60 or less with a single family home only needs the 4.5 gallon size tank. Any larger family, extra house, 1.5HP pump or larger, or running higher than 40/60 pressure should use the 10 gallon size tank. More than a couple houses and I would use a 20 gallon size tank. Look at the kit model PK1A.
The CSV must be before the pressure tank/pressure switch. When the pressure tank is screwed directly to the 3/4 port in the CSV1A the tank is on the outlet side of the CSV.
I have a multiple wells setup feeding a network. Im wondering how could I use CSV/pressure switch/tank setup so that each wells start when needed and shuts off when the demand decreases.
Sure we do that all the time. You just stagger the pressure switch and CSV settings so the highest pressure pumps come on first and the lowest pressure ones last. I have one system with eleven well pumps scattered across a sub-division. We give each pump 3 PSI difference from the last, like 60/80, 57/77, 54/74, and so on. Here is a link to an animation with two pumps you can play with. cyclestopvalves.com/pages/home-two-well-system
So if my pump is capable of build 175psi, but my pipe before the cvs is 125psi pipe, wouldn't i need to worry about it blowing up the pipe? Older 1" black roll.
Yes. That is why we check those things when recommending a CSV. But usually there is only 30-50 PSI more on the pipe than the normal pressure that happens because of the depth of the well and the pressure on the pressure switch. If the pump is 260' deep when the pressure switch gets to 60 there is 175 PSI on the pipe at the bottom of the well, even without a CSV.
Cool video! This valve may help me out a lot, but I am curious how this will work while making RO water. I have 400 GPD unit and I'm not exactly sure how many Gpm it uses while I'm making water, but my RO usually runs all of 10-15 hours every few days. The pump runs every 30-40 minutes while i am making water, and is on for about 15-20 minutes before it kicks back off. Will the csv keep the pump on for the entire time the RO unit is running?
My math shows 400 gallons in 10 hours is 0.6 of a GPM. A jet pump with a CSV1A will stay running with flows down to about 0.5 GPM, and a submersible will stay running with as little as 1.0 GPM. So, if you have a submersible just use a little larger tank than normal with the CSV. Although it will still cycle, it will be a very slow cycle. With a 40 gallon size tank that holds 10 gallons of water, you supply pump will be still have to come on every 30-40 minutes.
Thank you, I've been maintaining a well system for decades without understanding it completely. I've achieved ok results by using overkill on everything. I have recently installed a CSV but need to do more adjusting, as my pump still cycles
If you have a CSV and the pump is still cycling, just loosen the adjustment bolt on the CSV or increase the pressure setting of the pressure switch until the pump runs continuously while you are using water.
That worked well, I settled on 55 in a 40-60 system, and it is doing as advertised. The Animation got through my confusion like no written explanation has, excellent work, Thank you again.
No. The power only goes down, not up. The CSV decreases the power needed and makes the motor run cooler. Varying the power is a good thing as long as it goes down.
Believe it or not the CSV has been documented to increase the life of pump from 4 to 10 times. Our first test 30 years ago were on systems that cycled the pump to death every 2 years or so. Those systems last over 20 years with a CSV. Other systems where the pump lasted the normal 5-7 years the CSV has made last 30 years so far, and most are still working. You would not believe how long a pump will last when you reduce or eliminate the cycling on and off. That is why pump companies have labeled the CSV a "disruptive" product, as it makes pumps last much longer than the manufacturer wants it to.
Does it make any sense to use a CSV when using a Simple Pump designed to hand pump water to a pressure tank in a power outage? In that case it would seem you would want the largest pressure tank possible without a CSV.
I don't think you want to hook the Simple pump up to the pressure tank. Pumping against the 40 PSI would be like lifting water an additional 92', which will make it much harder to pump. The only hand pumps I have seen pump zero pressure into a bucket when the power is out.
How would it help with a low yield well? I am thinking of putting in a storage tank connected to existing well pump AND adding a booster pump to the existing 32 gallon pressure tank.
You need the Cycle Sensor to protect your well pump from running dry. The Cycle Stop Valve would go on the booster pump to keep it from cycling to death and to deliver strong constant pressure to the house.
The CSV sounds like a great idea. I also have some thoughts on the pressure tank. I think well tanks are poorly designed, possibly to avoid coating the inside of the tank. My thought is that the bladder should be for air rather than water. The bladder shape would not be critical and replacement could be through a port located on top of the tank for easy access so a homeowner could just pick up a replacement at home depot and install it w/o even fully draining the tank.
There are bladder tanks and there are diaphragm tanks. Some bladder tanks have the air inside the bladder, some have water. All diaphragm tanks that I know of only have water under the diaphragm. The most important thing to make a tank last is to limit the pump cycling. With every pump cycle the diaphragm or bladder expands and contracts. it is like bending a wire back and forth until it breaks. It is only going to take so many bends. You could use up all the bends in a short time by letting the pump cycle on/off too much, or you can make a bladder/diaphragm last many years by reducing or eliminating the cycling by using a Cycle Stop Valve. The second most important part of making a tank last is getting one where the bladder/diaphragm does not touch the sides when expanding and contracting. It is hard to make a bladder that doesn't touch the tanks sides, and easy to make a diaphragm expand and contract without touching the tank. Oh, and tanks with replaceable bladders are the worst, as they are made to need replacing regularly. In other words diaphragm tanks are better than bladder tanks, but any tank will last longer when working with a Cycle Stop Valve.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Thanks! I find that Wellmate makes a fiberglass well tank with a top replaceable air cell. They apparently have a quick disconnect for the plumbing as well. I just recharged my bladder tank idf I have to replace it I am considering a Wellmate tank and a CSV.
@@shofar-man The bag or bladder in a well mate tank tends to wrinkle when it expands and contracts. The fold or wrinkle is where it will break. Look at the flex lite. They are fiberglass with a diaphragm.
What will keep this type of unit from burning out the pump motor if the well only produced 7GPM. and the out door hose puts out 23 GPM? How long will it take to run the well dry?
The CSV would have nothing to do with that problem. If your well only makes 7 GPM and you are letting out 23 GPM, the well will be pumped dry as soon as the extra water stored in the wells static level is depleted. Can probably only run 23 GPM for 10 minutes or so before you pump a 7 GPM well dry. Now if you have a 23 GPM pump and the well only makes 7 GPM, then if you only open up 7 GPM or less, the CSV will make the 23 GPM pump only put out 7 GPM or the exact amount you are using, so in this way the CSV can help keep from pumping the well dry. In low yield wells the Cycle Sensor will protect the pump if the well runs dry. Using the Cycle Sensor for protection and in combination with a Cycle Stop Valve will let you get the most out of any low producing well.
The CSV1A as comes in the PK1A kit is designed to handle some sand or sediment. Just put all your filters and softeners after the PK1A kit or after the pressure tank.
The CSV will work with any pressure tank. However, a bladder or diaphragm type tank is best. Then yes all you need is to add the CSV before your tank and before any water lines or hydrants tee off. If it is not a bladder/diaphragm style tank it takes a little more consideration to work with an air maker system, but it will still work.
What about the cycle duty times on these pumps Designed to be a 1 or 2 min run time. Asking for trouble having something like this just to not feel a slight pressure drop
Lol! Even 1-2 minutes of run time isn't enough. That is just the minimum. With a CSV the pump will run for as long as you are using water, then 1 more minute to fill the tank. You don't have to worry about "cycle duty" on a pump when it has a Cycle Stop Valve. Although you can use any size pressure tank you want with a CSV, even with the small tank there really is no way, as in no amount of flow for any length of time that will make the pump cycle repeatedly, which is what destroys most pumps. Cycle Stop Valves make pumps last many times longer than normal, not the other way around.
This may be an ignorant question and if so you have my apologies. I am purchasing a newly built home with a well. I am trying to understand how the well systems work and so far this was the best description of the two main pressure systems, so thank you. I would like to know where in these systems would you put the water softener, reverse osmosis, and other filtering systems. Should you put something before and after or just after?
Thank you! All filters, softeners, and such should be placed after the CSV/pressure tank on the line going to the house. Keep in mind filters and softeners lose quite a bit of pressure through them. So, you may want to set up your system with 60 PSI constant from the CSV using a 50/70 pressure switch instead of the usual 40/60 pressure settings.
First off great video, I have a few questions tho...So as the csv reduces the flow as needed, I can see the pressure go up on the pump discharge. How does the pump conserve energy if only the flow rate is reduced? The pumps output should be the same no matter the flow which is why the discharge pressure increases as the flow to the system is reduced correct? I understand the concept, but am wondering what kind of stess a csv would put on the pump and if it would reduce the life of the pump any. Thanks for the video and I look forward to getting my questions answered!
It is just the opposite of what you might think. Counter intuitive is the word. You can see as the pressure goes up on the pump discharge the amperage or power required goes down. The amperage is the "work" that the pump has to do. So when the amperage goes down the work goes down, which is easier on the pump, not harder. Most pump guys don't even know amperage or work goes down as pump discharge pressure increases. If you find a pump man who understands this counter intuitive fact about pumps, you found a good pump man. If a pump man doesn't understand how a pump really works he will try to sell you a VFD. But a VFD is just trying to trick a pump into doing something it already does naturally. Just most people don't know restricting the flow from a pump makes the pump draw lower amperage and last longer than normal.
My well water goes to a filtering and water softening and then reverse osmosis, to sit in a big tank, which then has it's own pump aside from the well water pump. How would this work with or even be needed?
You would need the CSV on the booster pumping out of the storage tank. You could also use a CSV on the well pump and have it set up to pump directly from the well in the case your booster at the storage tank quits on New Years day.
Great explanation and thank you for the video. Do you run the risk of cavitating your pump blades by sending variable flows? Most pumps are designed to operate at a pretty strict flow and net head (pressure) range. Is the assumption here that you would need a pump that can effectively process a wide flow range?
The CSV can never close quite enough to cause cavitation. Most centrifugal pumps can handle a much wider range of flow than some people might think. Really as long as there is enough flow to keep the pump cool, cavitation is not an issue. Restricting the inlet line to the pump would cause cavitation, restricting the discharge of a pump only increases the head pressure, reduces the work the motor has to do, and even makes the motor run cooler.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Very interesting. I need to check my pump spec sheet and now might consider using a CSV. Does it operate under a similar principal to pump control Cla-Val or Bermad? I tried researching the innards on how the CSV works and couldn't find much.
@@andrewbenjamin3687 There is plenty on how the CSV works. It is just so simple you didn't realize that was all of it. The CSV works on a pressure reducing principle just like many Cla-Vals, Bermads, etc. The patented difference is that the CSV can never close to less than needed to keep the pump/motor cool. The minimum bypass in the CSV is what keeps the motor/pump cool, determines the rate that fills the pressure tank, and also determines the minimum usage rate at which the pump will not cycle.
"Head pressure" is what a pump does. Even though your well is 150' deep and the pump maybe set at 145', it is still only lifting from the actual water level. So lets say the water level in the well is 100' at the lowest. Then you need a pump that can produce a head pressure or lift from 100', plus deliver the pressure needed in the house. With a single story house I would only use a 40/60 pressure switch. But with 2 stories I prefer a 50/70 pressure switch setting, which with a CSV will give you 60 PSI constant while the water is being used. This 60 PSI needed can be converted to head in feet by multiplying 60 X 2.31 for an additional 138' of head. The 50/70 setting is already making up the extra needed for the 20' elevation of the 2 story house. So adding the 100' of actual lift in the well to the 138' of head needed to make the 60 PSI for the house, gives a total head needed of 238' the pump must deliver. Now picking a pump that will do maybe 10 GPM at 238' means you need a 10 GPM, 3/4 HP pump. When using a CSV the head pressure on the pump will increase when you are using less than 10 GPM. When the CSV makes the pump produce only 1 GPM, because you are only using 1 GPM at the time, the pump will be seeing a head pressure of 310', which is the same as 134 PSI. So when using 10 GPM the CSV lets the pump draw from 100' and produce the 60 PSI needed in the house. But when only using 1 GPM, the CSV makes the pump think the water is 310' deep, which is how the CSV make the 10 GPM pump produce only 1 GPM when needed.
Would this system work for a cottage set up. We are there usually only for a 2-4 days a week in the summer and the occasional full week. We have a shallow sand point well, 3/4 or 1hp jet pump and a 4.4 gal tank. Use a 30/50 pressure switch. We ok water pressure but our but is always on and off. Would this be suitable or should we just go with a larger tank for this application. We also have two washrooms, one shower, kitchen and a washing machine.
Yes a CSV will work with that. A 4.4 gallon size tank is the normal one we use with a CSV, but is way too small a tank without a CSV. Just put in a CSV1A before the pressure tank. It will eliminate the cycling and give you strong constant pressure in the showers.
So your video shows a 40/60 switch and running around 50psi using CVS. Can i use my existing 30/50 switch and run at say 40psi? I dont know the actual HP of my motor off hand but lets assume its 1/2-3/4 HP. I am also using a shallow sand point well.
The Cycle Stop Valve or CSV was designed to replace Variable Speed Pumps or VSP's or VFD's, etc, etc. Variable speed pumps are not new. I was doing them back in the 80's. They have been around since 1964. However, VFD's have been "upgraded" or "de-bugged" every 18 months or so since VFD time began. They told me in the 80's that the newest model was going to solve all the problems of the last model, and they are still saying that today. They have made a LOT of improvements over the years, but laws of physics will never let them solve all the problems that happen when you vary the speed of a pump. VFD's are a good thing however, in the fact that they will deliver water at a constant pressure and allow the use of a very small pressure tank the same way a CSV does. It is just that when you have two ways to accomplish the same task, the simplest way is always the best way. A simple little valve (CSV) with only one moving part is going to cost much less and last much longer than any computerized VFD with thousands of electrical components. Plus using a CSV is much easier on the pump/motor than the pulsing power supplied and resonance frequencies created by a VFD. Pump manufacturers are in the business of making money selling pumps and VFD's. Why on earth would they even mention or condone a product that is disruptive to their industry because is cost very little and makes pumps last much longer than designed? Constant pressure is an excellent idea. And a CSV is a much better way to get it than a VFD.
YES THEY DO! They hate it that the Cycle Stop Valve makes pumps last several times longer than their planned obsolescence date. So they will tell you anything they can to keep you from using a CSV, including saying that it will void the warranty. BUT they will not put that in writing. They know if they put that in writing I would own their pump company. Because not only can they not disallow a warranty for using a CSV, they have never seen a pump damaged in anyway in all these 25 years the CSV has been in existence. Restricting the flow from the pump reduces the amp draw and makes the motor run cooler. Plus restricting the flow is how the CSV keeps the pump from cycling itself to death, which is why pumps using a CSV last many times longer than those without a CSV.
I see the advantage of a CSV when you are plumbed directly to the well. Any advantage if you are gravity fed from storage tanks to the pressure pump? For example 2.5 GPM well > 6000Gal tank > pressure pump > 40gal pressure tank > filters > house
It doesn't matter if it is gravity fed to the pump, drawing from a storage tank, or a well, anytime you have a system that requires water to automatically come on when you open a faucet or turn on the irrigation you need a Cycle Stop Valve. CSV's work great on booster pumps as well as submersible pumps. It doesn't matter if you are boosting city water pressure, well, or tank water.
Yes, except some of those motors say "not for continuous duty". Only pump/motor I ever saw that says that. The Cycle Stop Valve takes all the jerking and cycling out, but I think these pumps are still made for light use. I wouldn't leave it running for hours on an irrigation system like with other pumps.
Wouldn't it work the same then if I just eliminate the pressure tank and leave the pump straight to the house on demand with no valves or anything in between?
Any pump with a centrifugal impeller. This includes submersible well pumps, jet pumps, mutil-stage booster pumps, turbine pumps, split case, and end suction centrifugal pumps. The only pumps a CSV will not work with are positive displacement pumps like piston, gear, and rod pumps like windmills.
great video, and your assertion that even most plumbers don't understand the amp relationship to pressure. I'm on a well established well with `75' calculated head. even though the well is established, every now and again - usually after 4 days straight of rain, the water can be a bit more cloudy than normal. I have a question about order of devices. Would it be OK if the first device once the water line comes into the house is a sediment filter? It's a "high flow" water filter - translated means it basically only catches the bigger sediment. Would I be impacting the life/value/performance of the CSV?
The CSV125 valves do not like sand, but the CSV1A can handle quite a bit of sediment. However, it is always best to keep sand and sediment out of the CSV when possible. And as long as the filter is rated for the max pressure the pump can build, the filter can go before the CSV. Give me a pump model number and the depth to water in the well and I can tell you how much pressure will be on the filter before the CSV.
the well pump is 2ST52-12PLUS-P4-2 50' calculated head 200' distance to well with rise of 20' I was hoping to set csv to maintain 55. do think that would be possible?
That pump can only make 103 PSI max. If your water level is 75', that pump can only deliver 70 PSI to the surface. So yes you can run the CSV at 55 PSI with a 40/60 pressure switch. However, at 75' lift plus 55 PSI that pump can only produce 7 GPM. If you use more than 7 GPM the pressure will be lower than 55 PSI. As long as the filter is rated for 100 PSI or better it will be fine installed prior to the CSV.
It is just a valve. It controls the flow. You don't need anything to vary the pump speed, pumps naturally drop amps when the flow is restricted. See this. czcams.com/video/3GABhLLtjas/video.html
Can you please explain why a system will fail to work when the pressure gauge is faulty? I’ve have to change my gauge twice in 25 years and I can’t figure out why the gauge which isn’t wired to anything can affect the whole system. If the pressure switch is set properly shouldn’t that be sufficient? Thank You
The pressure gauge has nothing to do with the function of the pump. The pressures switch will still turn the pump on at 40 and off at 60 even if there was no gauge. But gauges are like everything else in a pump system which is destroyed from the pump cycling on and off too much.
Interesting. How does the cycle stop valve respond to a low flowing well? I would surmise that it would only be able to maintain a constant pressure if the flow demand is less than the pump/well can deliver. If the flow demand exceeds the well's/pump's capability, will the valve close to the point that it flows only what the well/pump is capable of delivering, or will it start oscillating the pressure and cause short cycles? Also, what about winterizing? Does a bypass need to be installed to drain the house piping, or will water flow backwards through the valve? Lastly, what's required to winterize the cycle stop valve?
The Cycle Stop Valve will let you pump a weak well dry if you open too many faucets. The Cycle Sensor is designed to sense a dry well and shut the pump off. The pump doesn't cycle when it pumps the well dry, but it will burn out if not shut off fairly soon. The Cycle Stop Valve does allow you to use a very small amount of water without cycling the pump. So if your well only makes 4 GPM, and you only open 3 GPM worth of faucets, the CSV will make the pump only supply 3 GPM and you won't pump the well dry.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Thanks! What about winterizing the cycle stop valve? Is a drain valve required on each side of the valve, or can water flow backward through the valve for draining the system?
Yes you can. The CSV makes a big pump act like a small one when needed. So you can have a pump or pumps large enough to supply a huge city, and the CSV will make it act like a really small pump when only one shower in one house is being used at the time.
Absolutely not! Back pressure makes pumps last longer for several reasons. I am sorry you have not got this from the many videos on my channel showing how it works. So I will just say it plainly. Back pressure reduces the amps and makes the pump/motor run cooler. Back pressure can also reduce the amount the pump is putting out. This is how a CSV makes the pump stop cycling, as cycling is the worst thing you can do to a pump.
A CSV with a small pressure tank actually works better with low producing wells than a system with a large pressure tank. A large pressure tank is just an additional demand for a weak producing well to supply. If the well is really weak, a cistern storage tank with a booster pump and a CSV is best.
Question... My water pressure from the pump alone is not so great. With this system I can't increase the water pressure and am at the mercy of my pump, correct?
Maybe not. If your pump is cycling on and off while using water and experiencing low pressure, you maybe able to turn up the pressure and even use a Cycle Stop Valve to get much stronger constant pressure. What model pump do you have, and does it cycle on and off while using water at low pressure?
We sell a lot of CSV specifically to make on demand heaters work properly. Usually the 40 to 60 swing in pressure using the old pressure switch method will vary the flow in the shower head. At 40 the shower flow is low and the instant heater goes off. At 60 the shower flow is high and the instant heater comes on again. Some people call this a cold water sandwich. With a CSV holding a constant 50 PSI as long as you are in the shower an instant heater will stay on as it should and give you all the hot water you want.
I don't have the cold water sandwich situation although I'm familiar with it from when I had such in the late 80's... I had the on-demand installed 2 years ago and it has worked fine except for a drop in pressure for approx 15 seconds during a long shower before it comes back strong (and still hot). This only started in early December (4 months ago). A well service is coming out this afternoon. I'll see what he says and if he has ever heard of a cycle stop valve. I live in the boondocks and a lot of the service folks up here don't know about new developments in their trades because they simply haven't encountered anything since they first learned.
The CSV keeps the pump from reaching the shut off point as long as you are using more than 1 GPM. So, with a 20/40 switch the CSV would be set to 30 with a small tank, or 35 PSI constant if you have a larger tank.
My pump is next to my water storage tank outside my house and the pressure tank is in the basement inside my house. Does the CSV need to be in close proximity to the pressure tank or can it be installed right after the pump? My pump has the pressure gauge and pressure switch right next to it.
Well the pressure switch and pressure tank need to be close together and after the CSV. But the CSV can be at the well or just before the pressure tank/pressure switch. The CSV is usually installed at the well when there are hydrants or tees in the line before it gets to the pressure tank at the house.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 My pressure switch and tank are about 20 feet apart and have been since I've owned the house. But if I'm going to install a CSV, should I move the pressure tank out to where the switch is?
I have been in our new ( to us) home and this is my first well. The pressure seems to take a very long time to recover,the pump is very new ( jet pump) and the pressure tank is fairly new also. One question is location of the pressure tank, mine has been placed in the well with the jet pump on a shelf. My well is about 4’ in diameter and 17’ deep approximately. The house is probably 150-200’ from the well with a small incline to the house. I was going to swap the pump for a submersible and then move the tank to under the house but wonder if adding this valve will take care of my issue? Thanks for your time,enjoyed the video!
I don't understand the tank in the well with a jet pump? But the CSv will give you strong constant pressure and work with a much smaller pressure tank.
Cycle Stop Valves gotcha, it is physically located in the well just not in the water lol, i did say it is on a shelf in the well. The tank is after the pump. I just thought the pressure tank was supposed to be at the house, not that far away?
I bought a new pressure tank but the only one they had was a 30-50 so that’s the pressure switch I bought, my old system was 40-60, I haven’t hooked it up yet, will I have noticeably less water pressure at my shower? Thanks
Yes you would notice the lower pressure. All pressure switches are the same. Just tighten the large adjustment screw three times to the right and you will have a 40/60 switch.
@@shanek6582 You always need 2-5 PSI less air pressure in the tank than the pump start pressure, where ever that ends up happening. May need a little trial and error as three turns may not be exact. Just don't mess with the little adjustment screw.
Miguel Vasquez 2 hours ago I understand the long term use (Taking showers), but what about short term, flushing the toilet once wash your hands, seems like the pump will kick on filling the small tank rather then not kicking on having the bigger tank that will supply the water, not having the pump kicking on just because you flushed the toilet one time. It is not the small things that cause cycling problems. It doesn't hurt if your pump cycles on for every toilet flush, although it doesn't. What hurts is repetitive cycling during long showers or watering the yard. Your water doesn't come from the tank, it comes from the well/pump. Pressure tanks are only to reduce the on/off cycling, and when you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a large tank is just a waste of money and space. See this chart for number of cycles with or without a CSV for just house use only. The CSV and small tank still cycle less than a large tank with no CSV. Then if you have any long term uses like yard watering, there is no comparison as the CSV will cycle the pump only once, while without the CSV the pump will cycle hundreds of times. Average Cycles Pump Cycles for Family of Four with No Irrigation Cycle Stop Valve Pressure NO CSV CSV50 PSI CSV50 PSI CSV50 PSI Pressure Tank Size 20 Gallon 4.4 Gallon 10 Gallon 20 Gallon Average Daily Cycles 35 31 25 18
I have chicken houses. So at times I have water running all day for cool cell pads. Is it better to let the pump cycle (without CSV) giving it a chance to rest or (with the CSV) would the pump be OK running all day?
Pumps do not need to rest. Pumps are made for "continuous duty". They will last longer running 24/7 than if it cycles on and off even a few times per day. I have a pump feeding a stock tank that hasn't shut off in 15 years. Just like a diesel engine in a truck, they are made to run 24/7. Start and stop them 50-100 times a day and you will need a new one shortly.
Great animation. I am on a shared mutual well with about 70 homes. The pressure is ok, around 40. The house came with an old irrigation pump and two large tanks to accelerate water to farm and home. I replaced this with a Goulds constant flow variable pressure pump running 60/40 with a tiny ten gallon tank. The set up works great but i have a thump thump that occurs randomly throughout the day even though the breaker to the pump is off and I had a new brass ball check valve installed between pump and main line (to the shared well). When I bypass the pump entirely i have no check valve and can hear and feel vibration throughout the house as neighbors water their homes, yards, etc. The thumping only occurs when the pump is in line on or off electrically. My guess is the tank is making the noises. But why? What is making my tiny tank thump in the middle of the night when no water is being used, the pump is powered off by breaker and there is a new check valve?
Bladder tanks will thump when the pressure decrease below the air charge in the bladder. With 38 PSI air charge, the bladder hits the bottom of the tank anytime pressure falls below 38 PSI. Reducing the air charge in the tank will probably stop the the water hammer thump. Then all you need to do is get rid of that Tar Baby of a variable speed pump, install a regular jet pump with a Cycle Stop Valve, and you will have a pump system that will last 30 years in stead of maybe 3 years. Also, we make larger CSV's for larger pumps. The shared well for 70 homes could use a CSV even more than a small pump. The CSV would deliver better pressure to the 70 house, make the pump system last much longer, cut expenses greatly for pump control equipment, reducing cost to all concerned. We would only need an 80 gallon size pressure tank to do 70 homes with a CSV.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Thanks for your response. As a member of the mutual well water company I have no real say in how the water is delivered to the home. I bought the home with a meter at the street, 165 feet from my home. The company has a 60,000 gallon tank several hundreds or a thousand feet up on a hill that basically gravity feeds water to the 70 or so members down the line. When I bought the house it had a very loud electric pump and two 200 gallon bladder tanks. The property is one acre. Goats, chickens, vineyard and fruit trees on irrigation. The house is 3.5 bath with fire sprinkler system, California. I switched to the tar baby Goulds pump because it is whisper quiet and much more powerful than the old pump which was very noisy. Unfortunately the pump and piping was set up adjacent to the house, rather than farther away so every time the old pump came on you could hear it in the bedrooms above it. I will adjust the bladder pressure and see if i cant get rid of that hammering. Thanks for your help.
@@diegoroswell302 A fire system usually requires you to have a storage tank of your own? A submersible pump in the storage tank would supply more water and better pressure than a jet or centrifugal pump, and would be not just whisper quiet, but completely silent. You will need to make some changes soon as those Aqua-boost type pumps are not known to last very long. I just hope it doesn't quit you when you have a fire and really need it. :(
There are several cities in the Philippines that use the large Cycle Stop Valves instead of a water tower. We ship to the Philippines quite often, one just last week. Call us or email and we can get one headed your way.
I'd love to install one but the poly pipe from my home to well is 45 years old and as I found out when digging down FOUR FEET to fix a leak, it's thin wall 100PSIG irrigation pipe! The NEXT time there's a leak I will hire a ditch witch and replace with proper 260PSIG 1 1/4" pipe and install a CSV set at 60 psig. My switch is set at 55/75 to keep my RO/DI watermaker happy. It's too large for a booster pump to be practical so there's that. Our Amtrol 87 gal tank only has about 22 gallons drawdown due to the higher pressure as well.
You probably only need 160# poly pipe. But they do make 250# if needed. First things first, you need new pipe. Then a CSV can hold a constant 70 PSI working with your 55/75 switch and 87 gallon tank. A constant 70 PSI will be much stronger than when cycling on and off between 55 and 75 as it is now.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Yes when there is a leak (and I'll know immediately as the system check valve is on the pump), I do plan on replacing the line. I want to overkill things as our soil is rocky and I believe that's where the problem lies. Even with careful backfilling, just don't want to deal with a break! I even thought of running conduit and pulling the pipe through that but that may be a bit much. The cycling is noticeable but not as bad as before when we had a 20 gallon tank with 4.8 gallon drawdown (55-75)! And if a toilet is flushed during a shower the water probably gets 15 degrees warmer for a few sec.
Hi, I really appreciate you do this kind of video. I have a problem with my well pump system. I just got a new well borehole drill and a new Pressure tank with pressure switch, Cycle Stop Valve installed. The water pressure build up to 60psi and cut off fine, but when a valve is open the pressure drains quickly down to zero and shut off the pump. I tried everything to no avail. Is there anything wrong with my system? Unfortunately, it is out of the country and no one has any idea of how it works. Would you happen to know what could be causing the pump to shutdown when a valve is opened? Your kindly response will be very much appreciated.
With a 40/60 pressure switch, the pump should come back on as soon as the pressure drops to 40. The CSV really has nothing to do with that. Either the pressure switch is not turning the pump back on for some reason, or the overload in the pump is tripping on startup. You might also have a low pressure cut off lever on the side of your pressure switch that you must hold to get the pump started. If that is the case, you could have too much air charge in the tank, causing the pressure to bottom out before the pump starts. 40/60 switch , needs 35 PSI air in the tank when empty of water.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Thank so much for your quick response and the insight. I have two pressure switches, one with the cut off lever on the side and the other without it. Both have the same issue. At first, I thought it was a low water level in the well, so it was replaced the with regular one without the cut off lever but still does the same. I think the air pressure in the tank may be the issue as you mentioned. I will have them check that. I really appreciate your input. thank you.
@@egyahechie3171 Using a regular pressure switch without the lever on the side, the pump should start when the pressure drops to 40 no matter what. I am guessing you have a bad start capacitor and the overload in the motor is tripping on start up. What do you have to do to get the pump started again?
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Thank you so much for your input. After troubleshooting, we found out that a stone was blocking the check valve causing water to gush back to the well and turning the pump off. After removing the stone the cut-in and cut-off works fine @ 40/60 psi. thank you so much and I appreciate your quick response.
It is a really old Flash animation program. It use to be an animation you could play with and see how the system works. Flash is no longer supported, which is why I had to make it into a video. I have someone working on a new animation, but it maybe a while.
our water system goes out intermittently. we want to install a 5000L holding tank . the water fills the tank fron the main water source. i dont want the pump to run 24hrs per day. the pump is installed after the tank..will the Cycle stop valve also go after the pump ob this type of application?
The pump should be installed after the holding tank, but prior to a pressure tank. The CSV would go after the pump and before the pressure tank/pressure switch. The CSV only causes the pump to run when you are using water. But if you use water 24 hours a day, the CSV will make the pump run 24 hours a day, which is a good thing. Without the CSV the pump would cycle on/off to death when using water for long periods of time.
You're right that pumps will use less energy at lower flow. That is one of the ways i diagnose pumps at work. This doesn't make this valve work in pump control applications though. Running the pump at less than 50% of its flow rating will cause cavitation and vibration thus increasing wear on it.
Yep close a valve and if the amps don't drop that is the best way to diagnose a bad thrust bearing in the motor. But you can run these regular centrifugal pumps at much lower flow rate than you would think. Now I am talking about using cool water only, as hot water applications have a much higher minimum flow required. The minimum flow in a Cycle Stop Valve is set to maintain adequate flow to keep the pump from getting hot. The cool water being pumped can never increase in temperature by more than 10F degrees from inlet to outlet. As long as you don't let the fluid get hot, water has excellent cooling and lubricating values. A little re-circulation doesn't hurt anything, and won't cause any cavitation until the water heats, which it is not going to do. Vibration on a large end suction centrifugal pump can happen if the shaft slenderness ratio is too low. A small diameter shaft cannot hold the weight and force of a large impeller extended on the end of the shaft. But if it is a well built pump to start with, it won't vibrate even at very low flow rates, just like when you are testing at shut off. Multi-stage and submersible pumps, which are most common in these applications, have bearings on both ends of each impeller and are not prone to vibration from shaft flexibility. Even if there were a little vibration or cavitation, it would be far less harmful for the pump/motor than letting the pump cycle on/off to supply varied demands.
The pressure switch must sense the pressure after the CSV. You can either leave the switch on the side of the motor and extend the sensing tube to the CSV1A or pressure tank, or use a different pressure switch after the CSV and wire around the existing switch.
Way beyond my ability. I cant just cut the pvc pipe between the well head and the motor and install the CSV there ? my pressure tank is 200 feet away from the well motor
@@robertjenereaux4488 With a submersible pump that is exactly where you want the CSV. But if you have an above ground jet pump the CSV needs to be after the pump and the pressure switch sense line needs to be after the CSV.
In my basement, I have a 55 gallon pneumatic storage tank (20-40 psi, fed by typical submersible well pump/tank combo 100 ft away) prior to a Simer booster pump that increases pressure about 25-30 psi to around 65-70psi, feeding an 86 gallon bladder tank and house fixtures. The pump has its own (internal) on/off non-adjustable pressure switch. There are check valves and relief valves where needed, and a pressure reducing valve prior to the pump to prevent it from increasing pressure beyond 75 psi max. How might a CSV work in this system?
Wow! Sounds like a mess. A 55 gallon size pressure tank only holds 12 gallons of water. It is just a pressure tank, not a storage tank. You should be able to get all the pressure you need from the well pump, and not need a booster pump and all the other stuff. The 55 gallon pressure tank is much larger than needed with a CSV, but will work fine. Just turn up the pressure switch on the well pump to 60/80, and set a CSV1A for 70 PSI strong constant pressure to the house. Then you will not need the extra boost pump, 86 gallon tank, pressure reducing valve, etc. The CSV system will work much better. last much longer, and deliver stronger pressure to the house.
Thanks for the reply. The well pump and old tank combo serve two homes, with the tank likely not having much capacity after many, many years, and piping so old that to mess with it would likely require a complete re-do. Regularly, the well pump combo delivered no more than a trickle. Meanwhile, in the pneumatic tank (air over water), the capacity is actually closer to 50/50, providing sufficient storage draw for the booster pump, as the well pump, again, has low flow, low pressure. So, getting back to the booster pump and bladder tank, these have totally corrected a decades-long problem of having little to no water after short periods of use. One problem that remains though is correcting pressure ranging (40-70) still present, since booster pump only turns on once pressure sufficiently drops. So, back to original question, would a CSV work between the booster pump and bladder tank to keep pressure more steady, or is it a problem there is no pressure switch downstream of the booster pump?
@@OccamsRazor71 If you are getting more than 25% water from a pressure tank, something is wrong with the tank. Your bandaid booster pump may have helped the pressure, but shouldn't be needed if the well pump is set up correctly. But yes the CSV will solve the cycling problem with the booster pump. But yes the pressure switch has to be after the CSV. Again, what kind of booster pump do you have?
What if the pumps max pressure rating is 5 bar @ 75 Gpm & if I required 6 bar outlet pressure at same flow rate can I get the same if there is pressure vessel
The only way you can get 6 bar pressure from a pump that can only do 5 bar max is to have at least 1 bar inlet pressure to the pump. A pressure vessel can only store the pressure it is given, it cannot increase the pressure.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Your example shows a 25gpm pump @ 50psi, how then can the pressure switch turn off at 60 psi? Turns on at 40psi yes but from what you just said the pump can only push 50psi out to the tank and the tank can only store the pressure it is given. How then can the tank reach a pressure of 60psi to turn the pump off?
@@waltermelyon4300 Because the CSV is set at 50 PSI and will maintain 50 PSI when using more than 1 GPM. But the CSV cannot close to less than 1 GPM. So when no water is being used the 1 GPM "leaking" through the CSV has no place left to go except the tank. The tank is filled at 1 GPM until it is full to 60 PSI and the pressure switch shuts off the pump.
I understand the long term use (Taking showers), but what about short term, flushing the toilet once wash your hands, seems like the pump will kick on filling the small tank rather then not kicking on having the bigger tank that will supply the water, not having the pump kicking on just because you flushed the toilet one time.
It is not the small things that cause cycling problems. It doesn't hurt if your pump cycles on for every toilet flush, although it doesn't. What hurts is repetitive cycling during long showers or watering the yard. Your water doesn't come from the tank, it comes from the well/pump. Pressure tanks are only to reduce the on/off cycling, and when you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a large tank is just a waste of money and space. See this chart for number of cycles with or without a CSV for just house use only. The CSV and small tank still cycle less than a large tank with no CSV. Then if you have any long term uses like yard watering, there is no comparison as the CSV will cycle the pump only once, while without the CSV the pump will cycle hundreds of times. Average Cycles Pump Cycles for Family of Four with No Irrigation Cycle Stop Valve Pressure NO CSV CSV50 PSI CSV50 PSI CSV50 PSI Pressure Tank Size 20 Gallon 4.4 Gallon 10 Gallon 20 Gallon Average Daily Cycles 35 31 25 18
As I figured the 40-60 psi difference compresses the air in the tank to about a third of its volume. So for a 60 litre tank you get about 20 liters of extra water in there that you can use before the pressure drops to 40psi and the pump kicks in. So running a 300l bath will cycle the pump on and off 15 times.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 I know I was counting without the CSV. It's just that the hard part to figure out is how much volume of water really leaves the pressure tank between 40 and 60 PSI of the air. According to my rough math it would be about 20 litres for a 60l tank but correct me if I'm wrong please.
Is it safe to use this system if you have no idea what the specs are on your well pump or the well depth? I keep seeing people concerned about the pressure between the pump and the CSV. When I bought my house, it came with no info regarding the well pump or the well depth but I want to try this system.
Usually yes. It is rare for a house pump to be so oversized that it builds more than 200 PSI on the inlet. But it is possible. Knowing the horsepower or amperage drawn and checking to see how many gallons a minute you can catch in a bucket will tell us what size pump you have. Or, you can just put a gauge and a ball valve on the pump and test for pressure.
I don't get why my faucet doesn't do the same thing. I have read all of the explanations and looked at the videos and I still don't get how it works. Unless it is some combination of the faucet running, the tank filling, the spring moving and the cut off switch set between 40 and 60 psi. It took me a while to understand a ground fault interrupter too. I guess I will just have to get one and hope it works.
A faucet is after the pressure tank/CSV and only controls how much water you are using. The CSV is before the pressure tank/pressure switch and controls how much water your pump is producing. The CSV knows how many faucets you have open, and makes the pump produce exactly the same amount. Without a CSV the pump is always producing more than the faucet is letting out, which causes the tank to fill and the pump to cycle on and off. The CSV just matches how much the faucets are putting out so there is no extra water to fill the tank. You could do the same thing as a CSV with a ball valve before the pressure tank if you stood there and manually controlled it. With a 40/60 pressure switch the CSV would be set to 50 PSI. So if you saw the pressure drop below 50 you could open the ball valve a little and if you saw the pressure increase above 50 you could close the ball valve a little. The CSV will automatically keep the system at 50 PSI no matter how much or how little water you are using. You can't do that with a faucet.
There are CSV's sized to work with any pump. Your pump is sized to the depth of the well, the pressure that you need, and how many GPM you want to use. Then the CSV is sized to fit the pump.
I have a pressure tank that is going bad. it is inside a square block structure and I cannot get to the plumbing easily to replace or bypass. can I just install the stop valve combo kit inside the basement just before the water softener and not worry about removing the old tank. it is in good shape on the outside, this would essentially make it a storage tank? Also I would bypass the pressure switch at the well and wire it to the combo kit inside the basement. I just bought your kit online and wanted to start preparing for install once it arrives.
I have a jet pump and 6 gal pressure tank at the cottage. If I were to install this valve does it get installed between the pump and the pressure tank?
Yes. And you need to move the sensing line for the pressure switch to one of the extra ports on the CSV1A or to the line close to the pressure tank. You can also just add a new pressure switch and wire around the switch on the side of the motor as shown in our wiring instructions for "jet pumps". Thanks
@@cyclestopvalves8380 yes I understand about the sensing line moving to the valve. In this case how will the pump sense 60PSI to turn off. I was thinking to purchase the CSV125. Does it have a sensing port
@@truenorthmuskoka9077 The CSV125-3 will work with a jet pump, But there are no extra ports on the CSV125 like there are on the CSV1A. You would need a tee close to the tank to have a place to connect the pressure switch.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 I already have a pressure switch at the pump. Why do I need another one near the pressure tank. My pump and tank are within 1 foot of each other.
@@truenorthmuskoka9077 You can still use that pressure switch if you want. The sensing line just needs to be extended to a tee at the pressure tank, which both the tank and switch need to be after the CSV125. Pump-CSV-pressure tank/pressure switch.
Does the well pump continue to try and make water at the usual pump flow rate? There does not appear to be any current limits placed on the submersible pump by the CSV that I can see. There is no electrical control going on between the pump and the CSV. Correct me if I'm wrong but,I can understand how when there are several things using water at the same time, the CSV might eliminate a cycle on on and off , however how would this save energy, and save your pump from excessive wear? Putting a restriction on the flow of water leaving the pump seems like a dead heading measure. The pump continues to pump at it's usual force but is held back by the CSV regulator. If there were a lessening of energy sent to the pump , wouldn't that be a method of throttling it vs physically impeding the flow? Please explain and thank you for the video.
Those are very good questions. The CSV can never completely close, so it can never deadhead a pump. There is no electric to the CSV. Pumps just normally reduce in amperage when restricted with a valve of any kind. Here is a video to explain the technical stuff. czcams.com/video/3GABhLLtjas/video.html
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Throttling down the flow to 50 GPM is making the pump work harder. Harder = more power to overcome a restriction. I'm sorry but where I come from it takes the life out of the pump and will shortens it life. Not to mention the added energy cost. Am I missing something?
@@dantedenardis1385 Yeah you are missing a lot! Pumps work just the opposite of the way you are thinking. Pumps work easier when the flow rate is reduced, not harder. The energy a pump uses decreases not increases when the flow is restricted, which increases not decreases the life of a pump. Pumps are counter intuitive, which is why you are thinking wrong. See this video for a more technical explanation. czcams.com/video/3GABhLLtjas/video.html
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Okay I might have learned just something new in this. Youare right , it is counter intuitive to think that the harder a pump pushes through a reduced orifice the less energy it is going to use. Thanks for giving me something to think about at 3am ....lol
@@dantedenardis1385 I am glad someone besides me is up at 3AM thinking about this stuff. Lol. It is one of the hardest things to explain. I have tried many ways in almost 30 years and still get the same question everyday. It is the centrifugal impeller that is the magical thing here. It only draws a load depending on how much weight it is lifting. The actual definition of horsepower is the ability to lift 33,000# of weight one foot in one minute. One gallon of water weighs 8.33 pounds. It takes a lot more HP to lift 50 gallons a minute than is does to lift 1 gallon a minute. Restricting the pump to make this happen causes the impeller(s) to just spin in nice cool lubricant and not draw any load, as they don't actually touch anything.
Do you have a current meter test showing how much current pump is drawing using CSV and not using it, I know when I stall my tablesaw it blows breakers and draws much more current, can't be any good for pump motor to restick flow to almost nothing by creating a huge back pressure?.
You would think so right? I love showing people something they don't think is possible. You are right on the fence of figuring this out. A centrifugal pump is completely different than anything else, except some fans. With the heat off, put your hand over the discharge of a blow dryer. You can tell by the sound the motor speeds up. That is because there is less air being moved and less load on the motor. Put an amp meter on the blow dryer, and you will see the amps go down even though you can hear the motor speed up. Sticking your finger in the blow dryer and completely stopping the fan will have the opposite effect. The amps will go up the same as when you bind up a circular saw. Yes I have other videos showing the amp draw of several different pumps. There is even a video showing the horsepower on pump curves to better explain how a centrifugal pump works. The back pressure is never more than the pump can produce or withstand. The back pressure is like putting your hand over the blow dryer. It makes the amps decrease, which makes the motor run cooler. Back pressure is good for the pump even though it is the opposite of what our brains are telling us. Adding back pressure is a common fix for large irrigation pumps that are drawing too much current and tripping the breakers as it will decrease, not increase amps.
@@YIQUANONE Well a vacuum cleaner works the same way. Like I said there are lot of amp meters in my videos. There is one titled "25S20-11 Grundfos AMP DRAW". "Here's your link". czcams.com/video/_capz27LiYU/video.html
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Do you have a video that is more than 2 seconds long showing a meter?, one that shows amp draw when used and amps draw when not used?
Dearest knuckleheads, Amperage/Current drop when flow is reduced by increasing pressure/head. When a pump is not moving water it is not doing work, hence lower work equals lower horsepower.
Yes. You can use a CSV or a PK1A kit which has everything you need to make a regular jet pump boost city water pressure as high as you need. Boosting to 50-60 PSI is common, but we do lot of systems that boost to 130-150 PSI when the house in way up on a hill.
@@billtopp4329 The PK1A kit will work with jet pumps and multi-stage pumps from 1/2HP to 2HP. Something in the middle like a Goulds J10S would probably be a good choice for you. It can boost 10-15 GPM up to 50-60 PSI more than the incoming pressure. The CSV in the PK1A kit just makes it work like a small pump when only one shower is being used and lets you set the constant pressure where you want it.
Way better than a VFD. The CSV varies the flow rate and lowers the amp draw while giving the same strong constant pressure as a VFD. But it is just a simple, inexpensive, long lasting, mechanical valve. The CSV cost thousands of dollars less and makes the pump last decades longer than a VFD or a big pressure tank. Gee, I wonder why some pump companies will say anything to keep you from trying a CSV? Lol!
Awesome well explained video! Im definitely getting a CSV. I have a pressure tank system (well x trol professional) 80 gal. Way oversized for the house but with a csv the pressure drop goes away,outstanding! This vid has excellent detail for the novice or trained professional (maintenance mech for large steel corp.) Thanx again for the info.
Thanks for the kind words. I am glad it helped.
Yes, i need one as well.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 I deleted my post for 2 reasons, I have only seen videos of why not to have a csv, They can be misinformation since I noticed a few sketchy things that make you doubt truth or lie. Common Sense tells you if you return the same water in a small test tank and cycle a pump, it's going to heat up so going to investigate further before making a statement that may not be right. Second, I do notice a big amp drop after start up so you may be right, keeping it running may allow it to run better and longer, Personal experience with jet pumps, I notice you can get double the life by just letting it run and I can say that with truth since I did just that, my old jet system never shut off on purpose, got tired of changing pressure switches and even a small issue, shut down, clear system, fix issue, waste time priming lines and rinse/repeat, I set it to run constant and had little issue's plus it stayed cooler, I switched to submersible and kept the same set up except my pump works so good, it fills the 30 gallon tank so fast it barely ever runs for 15 seconds every couple hours unless you use washer/tub/shower. Even then it barely cuts on, But if your csv does what it says, pump barely will ever run at even 50%, I would guess like jet pump, draw less power, never trip the pressure switch and still keep 33psi, the only question I have is what happens to back pressure from not using water, would that not build back pressure? My jet pump returned water in a loop but the sub has no return, what happens to back pressure? Pump would be pushing water with no where to go if nothing is being used.
@@Klemin2012
Thanks. You are starting to understand. There is no water being recirculated. If you are not using the minimum 1 GPM coming through the CSV, then the 1 GPM fills the pressure tank until the pump is shut off. Jet pumps don't drop much in amps, but are air cooled motors and doesn't make any difference on water flow for cooling. The back pressure will be as much as your pump can build when thinking the well is deeper, which is how the CSV controls flow. But no pump can build more pressure than it can stand. Back pressure is a good thing as that is what makes the amps drop and the motor to run cooler.
czcams.com/video/HSwOpyNXs28/video.html&feature=share
Excellent video! Answered the questions I had about how it works. Thanks!
Really useful and well explained video! now I can understand the whole system better than before, Thank you!
Excellent explanation of CSV. I was torn between CSV or VFD system for my new home and this has helped me make my decision. Thank you Cycle Stop Valves!
Hey its good to see you folks here, I bought two systems for chicken houses back in 07 , smooth running and honestly I have had no problems with this setup other than my plumbing, but I was moving some water with those 8lb birds. I'm going to add your valve to my house today borrowing one from the farm since I'm no longer in operation. I blame the bank, but I'm a deplorable so...but I got good water.
This has been the best explanation I have seen and thank you.
Just one word Cary Austin....... INGENIOUS !!!
Very well informative video! I was looking into one these CSV and wanted to know more. Thanks!
Thanks! Well done, flow control, and pressure control. Much better system.
Great video, very interesting and informative. Thanks.
well done, logical and well explained, thank you so much.
Great Presentation - solid job and kudos for you!
Bloody great video... and so well narrated...
Very good illustration and explanation. Thank you. I understood the concept very well but in trying to explain it verbally to others when asked why I have such a small pressure tank, I get blank stares but showing this video clearly explains the concept.
I know the blank stare you are talking about. To be such a simple valve the CSV has a complicated explanation and a hundred ways to use it. I have tried for 25 years to find a better way to explain it. I am glad the animation video helped. :)
thank you, great job
You can go to our web page at Cyclestopvalves.com or call us at 806-885-4445.
I am looking to make an irrigation system for my orchard and garden. I am also going to add a few hydrants along the way. I want to pull water out of my creek and was looking at different setups. I have a good pump and old bladder from an old setup. With this Valve, do I still need to use a bladder tank? what is the point of the tank if the valve bypasses the tank?
Brilliant animation. I live in an area that is close to the reservoir and the pressure is within spec but only just. I am thinking of installing a pressure booster system.
Cycle Stop Valves work just as good on booster pumps as on well pumps.
Thank you for adding the back pressure valve in the illustration. People need to know/see that there is excessive back pressure being restricted to this side of the pumping system. I know you have "proven" that this back pressure will do less damage to the pump than damage to the motor from more cycling, but this back pressure can get in excess of 150psi... Good valves though, I use them in a few different applications.
There can never be "excessive" backpressure with a Cycle Stop Valve. The CSV itself cannot handle "excessive" backpressure. The only time you would have excessive backpressure is if you have a 100' deep well with a pump designed for say 500'. And that is not going to happen because the CSV will not even work in an application like that. The CSV will only work with less than 125 PSI differential pressure. So if you have the CSV set for 50 PSI, there cannot be more than 175 PSI coming from the pump. Many pump companies want you to think the CSV causes "excessive" backpressure. They don't want you to get the benefits of a CSV, because it will make your pump last longer. So they try to scare people talking about "excessive" backpressure, which in reality CANNOT happen.
Thank you for explain well
Very good explanation.
Thank you! Then you might also like this one as well. czcams.com/video/4GhE-1Midgc/video.html
Interesting device, sounds like a special kind of pressure regulator. If I had to make an educated guess: It is like an adjustable high flow regulator (set to 50psi in this example), with a secondary, very restricted path (1gpm) that bypasses the regulator. This bypass path only allows pressure on the output side of the regulator to gain more then the regulator setting when the flow is less then 1gpm, and is critical in making this work. Very clever!
Thank you. Yeah so simple it is scary. Lol! We tried to see these to all the pump companies back in the early 90's. Took us several years to find out they blacklisted the CSV. Pump companies said the CSV is a disruptive product as it makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks. Wow! Found something that makes pumps work better and last longer and the pump companies are doing everything in their power to discredit us and come up with variable speed pumps or Masscontrol flow switch controllers that don't make pumps last forever like a CSV does. Notice you don't hear from any of our customers from 20-30 years ago? The CSV made their pump systems work so well and last so long they forget they even have a pump system. When water comes out the faucet everytime you open it, you will never have to think about your pump system again.
My main concern on the Cycle Stop Valve is the increase in backpressure. I've read many positive reviews on your website about them but also many of those same positive reviews have had fittings blow apart and or leaks due to the increased back pressure between the pump and pressure tank. Although I see the need to try and reduce pump cycle's the last thing I want to do is have to dig up a water line or pull the well pump due to fitting failure from the increase in back pressure. My Franklin Electric Pump lasted 23 years before needing to be replaced on the traditional pressure tank and switch system.
Back pressure is good for the pump, cannot be any more than your pump can make, and the CSV itself has a limit. I only know of one idiot who blew off the incoming pipe, he just posted it on Amazon, which we do not do business with, so they keep that post up top. Lol. If your pump lasted 23 years without a CSV, it would last 40-50 years with one. We have only done this about a million times over the last 30 years. So, look at your pump curve, figure out how little back pressure it can build, get over your concern, and start enjoying strong constant pressure instead of seeing that pressure go up and down over and over and over.
wow thanks! My well pump is always on and off when I water my lawn and shower and stuff. I thought something was wrong with my tank but now I know it doesn't hold anything. I need this bad. the pump was replaced 8 years ago when I bought the house and don't know if a variable pump in the ground.
Even the new variable speed pumps just turn on and off all the time you are using water. But if you have a regular pressure switch it is probably not a variable speed pump and the Cycle Stop Valve will solve your problem and give you strong constant pressure in the shower.
How did you make this beautiful interactive animation?
Thank you for the well informed video. What is your opinion on a whole house filter with a CSV? Should a filter be installed before the pump, between the pump and CSV, or after the CSV?
Normally filters are installed after the CSV/pressure tank.
nice animation also
Wonderful video. I’d love to see a video with a holding tank and dual float switches. We are buying a home with a well that produces 3.6 GPM. The pressure tank is bad and we have to do some work. I wanted to have a 400 gallon plastic holding tank in the basement with a jet pump. Any information on this kind of system would be greatly appreciated. I love the animation. Thanks again.
I don't have a video but I do have several drawings of a cistern pump set up. Here is a link to one in my forum. forum.cyclestopvalves.com/index.php?topic=1840.0
I’m using. Red jacket jet pump with the pressure control valve attached to the pump and the pressure line going to the prop housing housing, would i have to change this to make the csv work. Move after the CSV valve.
For deep well jet pumps with the pressure control valve, you just put the CSV after the pressure control valve.
I have a well with a submersible pump but water comes out for only about 7-12 minutes depending on the time of the year. I am wanting to add a cabin on my property and plan on burying a water cistern near the house. I am going to buy a timer switch for the well pump so that it comes on multiple times per day and will fill into the cistern. Since I am only there on weekends or maybe once a month I should be able to capture enough water in cistern to service my cabin, sprinkler system and maybe a drip irrigation system. My plan is to put a submersible pump in the cistern and run it to a little pump house and then out from there. Your video makes sense and I am thinking I need your kit with the CSV. I have limited knowledge of these types of systems so I am wondering what type of submersible pump I need for my cistern (HP and GPM) to make all of this work using your system. Thanks.
How many GPM's do you have running for 7-12 minutes to pump the well dry? Even a well that only makes 1 GPM can still give you 1440 gallons every day. You need a Cycle Sensor for the well pump to protect it from running dry, and it will be your timer as it is built into the Cycle Sensor. You can use a Cycle Sensor on the cistern pump as well, so it shuts off if the cistern is run dry. Because of the price many people are using the 1HP, 33 GPM, Hallmark pumps in cisterns. I prefer the 230V version. Used in combination with our PK1A kit you can have all the water you want at a strong constant pressure. See this link. forum.cyclestopvalves.com/index.php?topic=1841.0
Hi, can you please give me an advice on wich model or brand of thank should I get to pair it up with your CVS?
We have kits that come with either a 4.5 or a 10 gallon size tank, which works for most applications. 1HP or smaller pump running at 40/60 or less with a single family home only needs the 4.5 gallon size tank. Any larger family, extra house, 1.5HP pump or larger, or running higher than 40/60 pressure should use the 10 gallon size tank. More than a couple houses and I would use a 20 gallon size tank. Look at the kit model PK1A.
Great Tip ! Thank You !
Can you install the CVS. Value BEFORE the pressure tank, or with the pressure tank as picture shows???
The CSV must be before the pressure tank/pressure switch. When the pressure tank is screwed directly to the 3/4 port in the CSV1A the tank is on the outlet side of the CSV.
I have a multiple wells setup feeding a network. Im wondering how could I use CSV/pressure switch/tank setup so that each wells start when needed and shuts off when the demand decreases.
Sure we do that all the time. You just stagger the pressure switch and CSV settings so the highest pressure pumps come on first and the lowest pressure ones last. I have one system with eleven well pumps scattered across a sub-division. We give each pump 3 PSI difference from the last, like 60/80, 57/77, 54/74, and so on. Here is a link to an animation with two pumps you can play with.
cyclestopvalves.com/pages/home-two-well-system
So if my pump is capable of build 175psi, but my pipe before the cvs is 125psi pipe, wouldn't i need to worry about it blowing up the pipe? Older 1" black roll.
Yes. That is why we check those things when recommending a CSV. But usually there is only 30-50 PSI more on the pipe than the normal pressure that happens because of the depth of the well and the pressure on the pressure switch. If the pump is 260' deep when the pressure switch gets to 60 there is 175 PSI on the pipe at the bottom of the well, even without a CSV.
Could you please make a video that dismantles a Cycle Stop Valve and explains its internal workings. Thanks.
That would be nice. I will work on that when I have time. Thanks!
Cool video! This valve may help me out a lot, but I am curious how this will work while making RO water. I have 400 GPD unit and I'm not exactly sure how many Gpm it uses while I'm making water, but my RO usually runs all of 10-15 hours every few days. The pump runs every 30-40 minutes while i am making water, and is on for about 15-20 minutes before it kicks back off. Will the csv keep the pump on for the entire time the RO unit is running?
My math shows 400 gallons in 10 hours is 0.6 of a GPM. A jet pump with a CSV1A will stay running with flows down to about 0.5 GPM, and a submersible will stay running with as little as 1.0 GPM. So, if you have a submersible just use a little larger tank than normal with the CSV. Although it will still cycle, it will be a very slow cycle. With a 40 gallon size tank that holds 10 gallons of water, you supply pump will be still have to come on every 30-40 minutes.
Thank you, I've been maintaining a well system for decades without understanding it completely. I've achieved ok results by using overkill on everything. I have recently installed a CSV but need to do more adjusting, as my pump still cycles
If you have a CSV and the pump is still cycling, just loosen the adjustment bolt on the CSV or increase the pressure setting of the pressure switch until the pump runs continuously while you are using water.
That worked well, I settled on 55 in a 40-60 system, and it is doing as advertised. The Animation got through my confusion like no written explanation has, excellent work, Thank you again.
Is there wear of the pump from having the power supply being constantly varied according the the need of the household?
No. The power only goes down, not up. The CSV decreases the power needed and makes the motor run cooler. Varying the power is a good thing as long as it goes down.
About how many years will this add to the life of the pump? Very curious, thanks
Believe it or not the CSV has been documented to increase the life of pump from 4 to 10 times. Our first test 30 years ago were on systems that cycled the pump to death every 2 years or so. Those systems last over 20 years with a CSV. Other systems where the pump lasted the normal 5-7 years the CSV has made last 30 years so far, and most are still working. You would not believe how long a pump will last when you reduce or eliminate the cycling on and off. That is why pump companies have labeled the CSV a "disruptive" product, as it makes pumps last much longer than the manufacturer wants it to.
Hi, well explained. What sw did you use?
Just a regular 40/60 pressure switch. Any pressure switch set at just about any pressure will work.
Does it make any sense to use a CSV when using a Simple Pump designed to hand pump water to a pressure tank in a power outage? In that case it would seem you would want the largest pressure tank possible without a CSV.
I don't think you want to hook the Simple pump up to the pressure tank. Pumping against the 40 PSI would be like lifting water an additional 92', which will make it much harder to pump. The only hand pumps I have seen pump zero pressure into a bucket when the power is out.
How would it help with a low yield well? I am thinking of putting in a storage tank connected to existing well pump AND adding a booster pump to the existing 32 gallon pressure tank.
You need the Cycle Sensor to protect your well pump from running dry. The Cycle Stop Valve would go on the booster pump to keep it from cycling to death and to deliver strong constant pressure to the house.
The CSV sounds like a great idea. I also have some thoughts on the pressure tank. I think well tanks are poorly designed, possibly to avoid coating the inside of the tank. My thought is that the bladder should be for air rather than water. The bladder shape would not be critical and replacement could be through a port located on top of the tank for easy access so a homeowner could just pick up a replacement at home depot and install it w/o even fully draining the tank.
There are bladder tanks and there are diaphragm tanks. Some bladder tanks have the air inside the bladder, some have water. All diaphragm tanks that I know of only have water under the diaphragm. The most important thing to make a tank last is to limit the pump cycling. With every pump cycle the diaphragm or bladder expands and contracts. it is like bending a wire back and forth until it breaks. It is only going to take so many bends. You could use up all the bends in a short time by letting the pump cycle on/off too much, or you can make a bladder/diaphragm last many years by reducing or eliminating the cycling by using a Cycle Stop Valve. The second most important part of making a tank last is getting one where the bladder/diaphragm does not touch the sides when expanding and contracting. It is hard to make a bladder that doesn't touch the tanks sides, and easy to make a diaphragm expand and contract without touching the tank. Oh, and tanks with replaceable bladders are the worst, as they are made to need replacing regularly. In other words diaphragm tanks are better than bladder tanks, but any tank will last longer when working with a Cycle Stop Valve.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Thanks! I find that Wellmate makes a fiberglass well tank with a top replaceable air cell. They apparently have a quick disconnect for the plumbing as well. I just recharged my bladder tank idf I have to replace it I am considering a Wellmate tank and a CSV.
@@shofar-man The bag or bladder in a well mate tank tends to wrinkle when it expands and contracts. The fold or wrinkle is where it will break. Look at the flex lite. They are fiberglass with a diaphragm.
What will keep this type of unit from burning out the pump motor if the well only produced 7GPM. and the out door hose puts out 23 GPM? How long will it take to run the well dry?
The CSV would have nothing to do with that problem. If your well only makes 7 GPM and you are letting out 23 GPM, the well will be pumped dry as soon as the extra water stored in the wells static level is depleted. Can probably only run 23 GPM for 10 minutes or so before you pump a 7 GPM well dry.
Now if you have a 23 GPM pump and the well only makes 7 GPM, then if you only open up 7 GPM or less, the CSV will make the 23 GPM pump only put out 7 GPM or the exact amount you are using, so in this way the CSV can help keep from pumping the well dry.
In low yield wells the Cycle Sensor will protect the pump if the well runs dry. Using the Cycle Sensor for protection and in combination with a Cycle Stop Valve will let you get the most out of any low producing well.
I live in an area with heavy sediment and require a softner and a whole house water filtration system how will the system work?
The CSV1A as comes in the PK1A kit is designed to handle some sand or sediment. Just put all your filters and softeners after the PK1A kit or after the pressure tank.
thanks
Can I use this valve with my regular pressure tank as well? Well is new so would rather just add this valve.
The CSV will work with any pressure tank. However, a bladder or diaphragm type tank is best. Then yes all you need is to add the CSV before your tank and before any water lines or hydrants tee off. If it is not a bladder/diaphragm style tank it takes a little more consideration to work with an air maker system, but it will still work.
What about the cycle duty times on these pumps
Designed to be a 1 or 2 min run time.
Asking for trouble having something like this just to not feel a slight pressure drop
Lol! Even 1-2 minutes of run time isn't enough. That is just the minimum. With a CSV the pump will run for as long as you are using water, then 1 more minute to fill the tank. You don't have to worry about "cycle duty" on a pump when it has a Cycle Stop Valve. Although you can use any size pressure tank you want with a CSV, even with the small tank there really is no way, as in no amount of flow for any length of time that will make the pump cycle repeatedly, which is what destroys most pumps. Cycle Stop Valves make pumps last many times longer than normal, not the other way around.
This may be an ignorant question and if so you have my apologies. I am purchasing a newly built home with a well. I am trying to understand how the well systems work and so far this was the best description of the two main pressure systems, so thank you. I would like to know where in these systems would you put the water softener, reverse osmosis, and other filtering systems. Should you put something before and after or just after?
Thank you! All filters, softeners, and such should be placed after the CSV/pressure tank on the line going to the house. Keep in mind filters and softeners lose quite a bit of pressure through them. So, you may want to set up your system with 60 PSI constant from the CSV using a 50/70 pressure switch instead of the usual 40/60 pressure settings.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 thank you so much. Have a great weekend
First off great video, I have a few questions tho...So as the csv reduces the flow as needed, I can see the pressure go up on the pump discharge. How does the pump conserve energy if only the flow rate is reduced? The pumps output should be the same no matter the flow which is why the discharge pressure increases as the flow to the system is reduced correct? I understand the concept, but am wondering what kind of stess a csv would put on the pump and if it would reduce the life of the pump any. Thanks for the video and I look forward to getting my questions answered!
It is just the opposite of what you might think. Counter intuitive is the word. You can see as the pressure goes up on the pump discharge the amperage or power required goes down. The amperage is the "work" that the pump has to do. So when the amperage goes down the work goes down, which is easier on the pump, not harder. Most pump guys don't even know amperage or work goes down as pump discharge pressure increases. If you find a pump man who understands this counter intuitive fact about pumps, you found a good pump man. If a pump man doesn't understand how a pump really works he will try to sell you a VFD. But a VFD is just trying to trick a pump into doing something it already does naturally. Just most people don't know restricting the flow from a pump makes the pump draw lower amperage and last longer than normal.
My well water goes to a filtering and water softening and then reverse osmosis, to sit in a big tank, which then has it's own pump aside from the well water pump. How would this work with or even be needed?
You would need the CSV on the booster pumping out of the storage tank. You could also use a CSV on the well pump and have it set up to pump directly from the well in the case your booster at the storage tank quits on New Years day.
Great explanation and thank you for the video. Do you run the risk of cavitating your pump blades by sending variable flows? Most pumps are designed to operate at a pretty strict flow and net head (pressure) range. Is the assumption here that you would need a pump that can effectively process a wide flow range?
The CSV can never close quite enough to cause cavitation. Most centrifugal pumps can handle a much wider range of flow than some people might think. Really as long as there is enough flow to keep the pump cool, cavitation is not an issue. Restricting the inlet line to the pump would cause cavitation, restricting the discharge of a pump only increases the head pressure, reduces the work the motor has to do, and even makes the motor run cooler.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Very interesting. I need to check my pump spec sheet and now might consider using a CSV. Does it operate under a similar principal to pump control Cla-Val or Bermad? I tried researching the innards on how the CSV works and couldn't find much.
@@andrewbenjamin3687 There is plenty on how the CSV works. It is just so simple you didn't realize that was all of it. The CSV works on a pressure reducing principle just like many Cla-Vals, Bermads, etc. The patented difference is that the CSV can never close to less than needed to keep the pump/motor cool. The minimum bypass in the CSV is what keeps the motor/pump cool, determines the rate that fills the pressure tank, and also determines the minimum usage rate at which the pump will not cycle.
what about the head pressure on the pump? 150 ft well plus two story house?
"Head pressure" is what a pump does. Even though your well is 150' deep and the pump maybe set at 145', it is still only lifting from the actual water level. So lets say the water level in the well is 100' at the lowest. Then you need a pump that can produce a head pressure or lift from 100', plus deliver the pressure needed in the house. With a single story house I would only use a 40/60 pressure switch. But with 2 stories I prefer a 50/70 pressure switch setting, which with a CSV will give you 60 PSI constant while the water is being used. This 60 PSI needed can be converted to head in feet by multiplying 60 X 2.31 for an additional 138' of head. The 50/70 setting is already making up the extra needed for the 20' elevation of the 2 story house. So adding the 100' of actual lift in the well to the 138' of head needed to make the 60 PSI for the house, gives a total head needed of 238' the pump must deliver. Now picking a pump that will do maybe 10 GPM at 238' means you need a 10 GPM, 3/4 HP pump.
When using a CSV the head pressure on the pump will increase when you are using less than 10 GPM. When the CSV makes the pump produce only 1 GPM, because you are only using 1 GPM at the time, the pump will be seeing a head pressure of 310', which is the same as 134 PSI. So when using 10 GPM the CSV lets the pump draw from 100' and produce the 60 PSI needed in the house. But when only using 1 GPM, the CSV makes the pump think the water is 310' deep, which is how the CSV make the 10 GPM pump produce only 1 GPM when needed.
Would this system work for a cottage set up. We are there usually only for a 2-4 days a week in the summer and the occasional full week. We have a shallow sand point well, 3/4 or 1hp jet pump and a 4.4 gal tank. Use a 30/50 pressure switch. We ok water pressure but our but is always on and off. Would this be suitable or should we just go with a larger tank for this application. We also have two washrooms, one shower, kitchen and a washing machine.
Yes a CSV will work with that. A 4.4 gallon size tank is the normal one we use with a CSV, but is way too small a tank without a CSV. Just put in a CSV1A before the pressure tank. It will eliminate the cycling and give you strong constant pressure in the showers.
So your video shows a 40/60 switch and running around 50psi using CVS. Can i use my existing 30/50 switch and run at say 40psi? I dont know the actual HP of my motor off hand but lets assume its 1/2-3/4 HP. I am also using a shallow sand point well.
Yes 3/50 is more common with a jet pump as it won't usually do 40/60. You can set the CSV1A anywhere from 15 to 150 PSI.
What about the new Variable speed pumps? Do you need a cycle stop valve? My neighbor has a VSP pump and a looks like a small
The Cycle Stop Valve or CSV was designed to replace Variable Speed Pumps or VSP's or VFD's, etc, etc. Variable speed pumps are not new. I was doing them back in the 80's. They have been around since 1964. However, VFD's have been "upgraded" or "de-bugged" every 18 months or so since VFD time began. They told me in the 80's that the newest model was going to solve all the problems of the last model, and they are still saying that today. They have made a LOT of improvements over the years, but laws of physics will never let them solve all the problems that happen when you vary the speed of a pump.
VFD's are a good thing however, in the fact that they will deliver water at a constant pressure and allow the use of a very small pressure tank the same way a CSV does. It is just that when you have two ways to accomplish the same task, the simplest way is always the best way. A simple little valve (CSV) with only one moving part is going to cost much less and last much longer than any computerized VFD with thousands of electrical components. Plus using a CSV is much easier on the pump/motor than the pulsing power supplied and resonance frequencies created by a VFD. Pump manufacturers are in the business of making money selling pumps and VFD's. Why on earth would they even mention or condone a product that is disruptive to their industry because is cost very little and makes pumps last much longer than designed?
Constant pressure is an excellent idea. And a CSV is a much better way to get it than a VFD.
Do pump manufacturers have any issue with installing these? It seems like having something to restrict the flow from the pump might void the warranty.
YES THEY DO! They hate it that the Cycle Stop Valve makes pumps last several times longer than their planned obsolescence date. So they will tell you anything they can to keep you from using a CSV, including saying that it will void the warranty. BUT they will not put that in writing. They know if they put that in writing I would own their pump company. Because not only can they not disallow a warranty for using a CSV, they have never seen a pump damaged in anyway in all these 25 years the CSV has been in existence. Restricting the flow from the pump reduces the amp draw and makes the motor run cooler. Plus restricting the flow is how the CSV keeps the pump from cycling itself to death, which is why pumps using a CSV last many times longer than those without a CSV.
can u use a csv with rainwater harvesting with a 3.5 gpm pump to run water to a cabin
Sure as long is it is a regular centrifugal or jet pump. The CSV won't work with positive displacement pumps like those 12 volt RV type pumps.
I see the advantage of a CSV when you are plumbed directly to the well. Any advantage if you are gravity fed from storage tanks to the pressure pump? For example 2.5 GPM well > 6000Gal tank > pressure pump > 40gal pressure tank > filters > house
It doesn't matter if it is gravity fed to the pump, drawing from a storage tank, or a well, anytime you have a system that requires water to automatically come on when you open a faucet or turn on the irrigation you need a Cycle Stop Valve. CSV's work great on booster pumps as well as submersible pumps. It doesn't matter if you are boosting city water pressure, well, or tank water.
Will this work with a Harbor Freight shallow well pump?
Yes, except some of those motors say "not for continuous duty". Only pump/motor I ever saw that says that. The Cycle Stop Valve takes all the jerking and cycling out, but I think these pumps are still made for light use. I wouldn't leave it running for hours on an irrigation system like with other pumps.
Wouldn't it work the same then if I just eliminate the pressure tank and leave the pump straight to the house on demand with no valves or anything in between?
NO that will not work. You would have really high pressure for an hour or so until the pump melted down.
Hi, will the CSV work with any type pump?
Any pump with a centrifugal impeller. This includes submersible well pumps, jet pumps, mutil-stage booster pumps, turbine pumps, split case, and end suction centrifugal pumps. The only pumps a CSV will not work with are positive displacement pumps like piston, gear, and rod pumps like windmills.
great video, and your assertion that even most plumbers don't understand the amp relationship to pressure. I'm on a well established well with `75' calculated head. even though the well is established, every now and again - usually after 4 days straight of rain, the water can be a bit more cloudy than normal. I have a question about order of devices. Would it be OK if the first device once the water line comes into the house is a sediment filter? It's a "high flow" water filter - translated means it basically only catches the bigger sediment. Would I be impacting the life/value/performance of the CSV?
The CSV125 valves do not like sand, but the CSV1A can handle quite a bit of sediment. However, it is always best to keep sand and sediment out of the CSV when possible. And as long as the filter is rated for the max pressure the pump can build, the filter can go before the CSV. Give me a pump model number and the depth to water in the well and I can tell you how much pressure will be on the filter before the CSV.
the well pump is 2ST52-12PLUS-P4-2
50' calculated head
200' distance to well with rise of 20'
I was hoping to set csv to maintain 55. do think that would be possible?
That pump can only make 103 PSI max. If your water level is 75', that pump can only deliver 70 PSI to the surface. So yes you can run the CSV at 55 PSI with a 40/60 pressure switch. However, at 75' lift plus 55 PSI that pump can only produce 7 GPM. If you use more than 7 GPM the pressure will be lower than 55 PSI. As long as the filter is rated for 100 PSI or better it will be fine installed prior to the CSV.
Interesting - What's the Principle of the CSV (How does it work)
Is it varying the Motor speed ?
It is just a valve. It controls the flow. You don't need anything to vary the pump speed, pumps naturally drop amps when the flow is restricted. See this. czcams.com/video/3GABhLLtjas/video.html
Can you please explain why a system will fail to work when the pressure gauge is faulty? I’ve have to change my gauge twice in 25 years and I can’t figure out why the gauge which isn’t wired to anything can affect the whole system. If the pressure switch is set properly shouldn’t that be sufficient? Thank You
The pressure gauge has nothing to do with the function of the pump. The pressures switch will still turn the pump on at 40 and off at 60 even if there was no gauge. But gauges are like everything else in a pump system which is destroyed from the pump cycling on and off too much.
Interesting. How does the cycle stop valve respond to a low flowing well? I would surmise that it would only be able to maintain a constant pressure if the flow demand is less than the pump/well can deliver. If the flow demand exceeds the well's/pump's capability, will the valve close to the point that it flows only what the well/pump is capable of delivering, or will it start oscillating the pressure and cause short cycles? Also, what about winterizing? Does a bypass need to be installed to drain the house piping, or will water flow backwards through the valve? Lastly, what's required to winterize the cycle stop valve?
The Cycle Stop Valve will let you pump a weak well dry if you open too many faucets. The Cycle Sensor is designed to sense a dry well and shut the pump off. The pump doesn't cycle when it pumps the well dry, but it will burn out if not shut off fairly soon. The Cycle Stop Valve does allow you to use a very small amount of water without cycling the pump. So if your well only makes 4 GPM, and you only open 3 GPM worth of faucets, the CSV will make the pump only supply 3 GPM and you won't pump the well dry.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Thanks! What about winterizing the cycle stop valve? Is a drain valve required on each side of the valve, or can water flow backward through the valve for draining the system?
Just drain the pipe on both sides of the CSV for winterizing.
I own a trailer court and I have 3 trailers that is occupied. Can I use one of this to maintain better pressure when 1 or more is using water?
Yes you can. The CSV makes a big pump act like a small one when needed. So you can have a pump or pumps large enough to supply a huge city, and the CSV will make it act like a really small pump when only one shower in one house is being used at the time.
Is the back pressure bad on my submersible pump?
Absolutely not! Back pressure makes pumps last longer for several reasons. I am sorry you have not got this from the many videos on my channel showing how it works. So I will just say it plainly. Back pressure reduces the amps and makes the pump/motor run cooler. Back pressure can also reduce the amount the pump is putting out. This is how a CSV makes the pump stop cycling, as cycling is the worst thing you can do to a pump.
This device would not be recommended for a low-yield well because it's cutting out the pressure tank buffer right?
A CSV with a small pressure tank actually works better with low producing wells than a system with a large pressure tank. A large pressure tank is just an additional demand for a weak producing well to supply. If the well is really weak, a cistern storage tank with a booster pump and a CSV is best.
right
Question... My water pressure from the pump alone is not so great. With this system I can't increase the water pressure and am at the mercy of my pump, correct?
Maybe not. If your pump is cycling on and off while using water and experiencing low pressure, you maybe able to turn up the pressure and even use a Cycle Stop Valve to get much stronger constant pressure. What model pump do you have, and does it cycle on and off while using water at low pressure?
How would this impact my on-demand HWH? I believe a specific flow rate is what causes it to turn on.
We sell a lot of CSV specifically to make on demand heaters work properly. Usually the 40 to 60 swing in pressure using the old pressure switch method will vary the flow in the shower head. At 40 the shower flow is low and the instant heater goes off. At 60 the shower flow is high and the instant heater comes on again. Some people call this a cold water sandwich. With a CSV holding a constant 50 PSI as long as you are in the shower an instant heater will stay on as it should and give you all the hot water you want.
I don't have the cold water sandwich situation although I'm familiar with it from when I had such in the late 80's... I had the on-demand installed 2 years ago and it has worked fine except for a drop in pressure for approx 15 seconds during a long shower before it comes back strong (and still hot). This only started in early December (4 months ago). A well service is coming out this afternoon. I'll see what he says and if he has ever heard of a cycle stop valve. I live in the boondocks and a lot of the service folks up here don't know about new developments in their trades because they simply haven't encountered anything since they first learned.
how about i use 20/40psi what is the pressure when running continuesly
The CSV keeps the pump from reaching the shut off point as long as you are using more than 1 GPM. So, with a 20/40 switch the CSV would be set to 30 with a small tank, or 35 PSI constant if you have a larger tank.
My pump is next to my water storage tank outside my house and the pressure tank is in the basement inside my house. Does the CSV need to be in close proximity to the pressure tank or can it be installed right after the pump? My pump has the pressure gauge and pressure switch right next to it.
Well the pressure switch and pressure tank need to be close together and after the CSV. But the CSV can be at the well or just before the pressure tank/pressure switch. The CSV is usually installed at the well when there are hydrants or tees in the line before it gets to the pressure tank at the house.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 My pressure switch and tank are about 20 feet apart and have been since I've owned the house. But if I'm going to install a CSV, should I move the pressure tank out to where the switch is?
@@geronimomadmartin3499 Yes or move the switch closer to the tank.
I have been in our new ( to us) home and this is my first well. The pressure seems to take a very long time to recover,the pump is very new ( jet pump) and the pressure tank is fairly new also. One question is location of the pressure tank, mine has been placed in the well with the jet pump on a shelf. My well is about 4’ in diameter and 17’ deep approximately. The house is probably 150-200’ from the well with a small incline to the house. I was going to swap the pump for a submersible and then move the tank to under the house but wonder if adding this valve will take care of my issue?
Thanks for your time,enjoyed the video!
I don't understand the tank in the well with a jet pump? But the CSv will give you strong constant pressure and work with a much smaller pressure tank.
Cycle Stop Valves what do you mean you don’t understand the pump and tank in the well?
@@1966cambo The pressure tank has to be after the pump. A jet pump is above ground, so the tank cannot be in the well?
Cycle Stop Valves gotcha, it is physically located in the well just not in the water lol, i did say it is on a shelf in the well. The tank is after the pump. I just thought the pressure tank was supposed to be at the house, not that far away?
I bought a new pressure tank but the only one they had was a 30-50 so that’s the pressure switch I bought, my old system was 40-60, I haven’t hooked it up yet, will I have noticeably less water pressure at my shower? Thanks
Yes you would notice the lower pressure. All pressure switches are the same. Just tighten the large adjustment screw three times to the right and you will have a 40/60 switch.
Cycle Stop Valves thanks sir. So I make three complete rotations of the nut, do I need to put more air pressure in the tank then?
@@shanek6582 You always need 2-5 PSI less air pressure in the tank than the pump start pressure, where ever that ends up happening. May need a little trial and error as three turns may not be exact. Just don't mess with the little adjustment screw.
Cycle Stop Valves thanks man
Miguel Vasquez
2 hours ago
I understand the long term use (Taking showers), but what about short term, flushing the toilet once wash your hands, seems like the pump will kick on filling the small tank rather then not kicking on having the bigger tank that will supply the water, not having the pump kicking on just because you flushed the toilet one time.
It is not the small things that cause cycling problems. It doesn't hurt if your pump cycles on for every toilet flush, although it doesn't. What hurts is repetitive cycling during long showers or watering the yard. Your water doesn't come from the tank, it comes from the well/pump. Pressure tanks are only to reduce the on/off cycling, and when you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a large tank is just a waste of money and space. See this chart for number of cycles with or without a CSV for just house use only. The CSV and small tank still cycle less than a large tank with no CSV. Then if you have any long term uses like yard watering, there is no comparison as the CSV will cycle the pump only once, while without the CSV the pump will cycle hundreds of times.
Average Cycles Pump Cycles for
Family of Four with No Irrigation
Cycle Stop Valve Pressure NO CSV CSV50 PSI CSV50 PSI CSV50 PSI
Pressure Tank Size 20 Gallon 4.4 Gallon 10 Gallon 20 Gallon
Average Daily Cycles 35 31 25 18
I see, Thank you. I think I will be purchasing the CSV system sounds great, Thanks again.
does this run 220 or 110 current? I've scoured the web, but I can't find the answer.
The CSV doesn't connect to power in any way. It will work with any size pump running on any voltage needed.
I have chicken houses. So at times I have water running all day for cool cell pads. Is it better to let the pump cycle (without CSV)
giving it a chance to rest or (with the CSV) would the pump be OK running all day?
Pumps do not need to rest. Pumps are made for "continuous duty". They will last longer running 24/7 than if it cycles on and off even a few times per day. I have a pump feeding a stock tank that hasn't shut off in 15 years. Just like a diesel engine in a truck, they are made to run 24/7. Start and stop them 50-100 times a day and you will need a new one shortly.
Great animation. I am on a shared mutual well with about 70 homes. The pressure is ok, around 40. The house came with an old irrigation pump and two large tanks to accelerate water to farm and home. I replaced this with a Goulds constant flow variable pressure pump running 60/40 with a tiny ten gallon tank. The set up works great but i have a thump thump that occurs randomly throughout the day even though the breaker to the pump is off and I had a new brass ball check valve installed between pump and main line (to the shared well). When I bypass the pump entirely i have no check valve and can hear and feel vibration throughout the house as neighbors water their homes, yards, etc. The thumping only occurs when the pump is in line on or off electrically. My guess is the tank is making the noises. But why? What is making my tiny tank thump in the middle of the night when no water is being used, the pump is powered off by breaker and there is a new check valve?
Bladder tanks will thump when the pressure decrease below the air charge in the bladder. With 38 PSI air charge, the bladder hits the bottom of the tank anytime pressure falls below 38 PSI. Reducing the air charge in the tank will probably stop the the water hammer thump. Then all you need to do is get rid of that Tar Baby of a variable speed pump, install a regular jet pump with a Cycle Stop Valve, and you will have a pump system that will last 30 years in stead of maybe 3 years.
Also, we make larger CSV's for larger pumps. The shared well for 70 homes could use a CSV even more than a small pump. The CSV would deliver better pressure to the 70 house, make the pump system last much longer, cut expenses greatly for pump control equipment, reducing cost to all concerned. We would only need an 80 gallon size pressure tank to do 70 homes with a CSV.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Thanks for your response. As a member of the mutual well water company I have no real say in how the water is delivered to the home. I bought the home with a meter at the street, 165 feet from my home. The company has a 60,000 gallon tank several hundreds or a thousand feet up on a hill that basically gravity feeds water to the 70 or so members down the line. When I bought the house it had a very loud electric pump and two 200 gallon bladder tanks. The property is one acre. Goats, chickens, vineyard and fruit trees on irrigation. The house is 3.5 bath with fire sprinkler system, California. I switched to the tar baby Goulds pump because it is whisper quiet and much more powerful than the old pump which was very noisy. Unfortunately the pump and piping was set up adjacent to the house, rather than farther away so every time the old pump came on you could hear it in the bedrooms above it. I will adjust the bladder pressure and see if i cant get rid of that hammering. Thanks for your help.
@@diegoroswell302 A fire system usually requires you to have a storage tank of your own? A submersible pump in the storage tank would supply more water and better pressure than a jet or centrifugal pump, and would be not just whisper quiet, but completely silent. You will need to make some changes soon as those Aqua-boost type pumps are not known to last very long. I just hope it doesn't quit you when you have a fire and really need it. :(
hi! is CSV also applicable for 1hp?
There are CSV's small and large. They work on pumps from 1/3HP to 500HP.
Wow, how do i purchase this device? Im from the philippines. Thus will solve my problem. Great product
There are several cities in the Philippines that use the large Cycle Stop Valves instead of a water tower. We ship to the Philippines quite often, one just last week. Call us or email and we can get one headed your way.
Cycle Stop Valves just wondering if you have like a package? With the pressure tank, csv etc....?
Yes that would be our PK1A kit, which you can see on the "Eliminate Big Pressure Tank" video on this channel.
I'd love to install one but the poly pipe from my home to well is 45 years old and as I found out when digging down FOUR FEET to fix a leak, it's thin wall 100PSIG irrigation pipe! The NEXT time there's a leak I will hire a ditch witch and replace with proper 260PSIG 1 1/4" pipe and install a CSV set at 60 psig. My switch is set at 55/75 to keep my RO/DI watermaker happy. It's too large for a booster pump to be practical so there's that. Our Amtrol 87 gal tank only has about 22 gallons drawdown due to the higher pressure as well.
You probably only need 160# poly pipe. But they do make 250# if needed. First things first, you need new pipe. Then a CSV can hold a constant 70 PSI working with your 55/75 switch and 87 gallon tank. A constant 70 PSI will be much stronger than when cycling on and off between 55 and 75 as it is now.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Yes when there is a leak (and I'll know immediately as the system check valve is on the pump), I do plan on replacing the line. I want to overkill things as our soil is rocky and I believe that's where the problem lies. Even with careful backfilling, just don't want to deal with a break! I even thought of running conduit and pulling the pipe through that but that may be a bit much. The cycling is noticeable but not as bad as before when we had a 20 gallon tank with 4.8 gallon drawdown (55-75)! And if a toilet is flushed during a shower the water probably gets 15 degrees warmer for a few sec.
Hi,
I really appreciate you do this kind of video. I have a problem with my well pump system. I just got a new well borehole drill and a new Pressure tank with pressure switch, Cycle Stop Valve installed. The water pressure build up to 60psi and cut off fine, but when a valve is open the pressure drains quickly down to zero and shut off the pump. I tried everything to no avail. Is there anything wrong with my system? Unfortunately, it is out of the country and no one has any idea of how it works. Would you happen to know what could be causing the pump to shutdown when a valve is opened?
Your kindly response will be very much appreciated.
With a 40/60 pressure switch, the pump should come back on as soon as the pressure drops to 40. The CSV really has nothing to do with that. Either the pressure switch is not turning the pump back on for some reason, or the overload in the pump is tripping on startup. You might also have a low pressure cut off lever on the side of your pressure switch that you must hold to get the pump started. If that is the case, you could have too much air charge in the tank, causing the pressure to bottom out before the pump starts. 40/60 switch , needs 35 PSI air in the tank when empty of water.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Thank so much for your quick response and the insight. I have two pressure switches, one with the cut off lever on the side and the other without it. Both have the same issue. At first, I thought it was a low water level in the well, so it was replaced the with regular one without the cut off lever but still does the same. I think the air pressure in the tank may be the issue as you mentioned. I will have them check that. I really appreciate your input.
thank you.
@@egyahechie3171 Using a regular pressure switch without the lever on the side, the pump should start when the pressure drops to 40 no matter what. I am guessing you have a bad start capacitor and the overload in the motor is tripping on start up. What do you have to do to get the pump started again?
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Thank you so much for your input. After troubleshooting, we found out that a stone was blocking the check valve causing water to gush back to the well and turning the pump off. After removing the stone the cut-in and cut-off works fine @ 40/60 psi.
thank you so much and I appreciate your quick response.
What software that you use in the video?
It is a really old Flash animation program. It use to be an animation you could play with and see how the system works. Flash is no longer supported, which is why I had to make it into a video. I have someone working on a new animation, but it maybe a while.
our water system goes out intermittently. we want to install a 5000L holding tank . the water fills the tank fron the main water source. i dont want the pump to run 24hrs per day. the pump is installed after the tank..will the Cycle stop valve also go after the pump ob this type of application?
The pump should be installed after the holding tank, but prior to a pressure tank. The CSV would go after the pump and before the pressure tank/pressure switch. The CSV only causes the pump to run when you are using water. But if you use water 24 hours a day, the CSV will make the pump run 24 hours a day, which is a good thing. Without the CSV the pump would cycle on/off to death when using water for long periods of time.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 and how do i order this for delivery to Canada ?
@@thisisme7984 We have shipping to Canada on our site or you can all us. 806 885 4445
You're right that pumps will use less energy at lower flow. That is one of the ways i diagnose pumps at work. This doesn't make this valve work in pump control applications though. Running the pump at less than 50% of its flow rating will cause cavitation and vibration thus increasing wear on it.
Yep close a valve and if the amps don't drop that is the best way to diagnose a bad thrust bearing in the motor. But you can run these regular centrifugal pumps at much lower flow rate than you would think. Now I am talking about using cool water only, as hot water applications have a much higher minimum flow required. The minimum flow in a Cycle Stop Valve is set to maintain adequate flow to keep the pump from getting hot. The cool water being pumped can never increase in temperature by more than 10F degrees from inlet to outlet. As long as you don't let the fluid get hot, water has excellent cooling and lubricating values. A little re-circulation doesn't hurt anything, and won't cause any cavitation until the water heats, which it is not going to do.
Vibration on a large end suction centrifugal pump can happen if the shaft slenderness ratio is too low. A small diameter shaft cannot hold the weight and force of a large impeller extended on the end of the shaft. But if it is a well built pump to start with, it won't vibrate even at very low flow rates, just like when you are testing at shut off. Multi-stage and submersible pumps, which are most common in these applications, have bearings on both ends of each impeller and are not prone to vibration from shaft flexibility.
Even if there were a little vibration or cavitation, it would be far less harmful for the pump/motor than letting the pump cycle on/off to supply varied demands.
My pressure switch is mounted on the jet pump in a pit. where does the CSV go, before of after the pump?
The pressure switch must sense the pressure after the CSV. You can either leave the switch on the side of the motor and extend the sensing tube to the CSV1A or pressure tank, or use a different pressure switch after the CSV and wire around the existing switch.
Way beyond my ability. I cant just cut the pvc pipe between the well head and the motor and install the CSV there ? my pressure tank is 200 feet away from the well motor
@@robertjenereaux4488 With a submersible pump that is exactly where you want the CSV. But if you have an above ground jet pump the CSV needs to be after the pump and the pressure switch sense line needs to be after the CSV.
? I take water should not come out the air valve? Leaky bladder?
Correct. If water comes out the air valve on a pressure tank the diaphragm or bladder is torn.
In my basement, I have a 55 gallon pneumatic storage tank (20-40 psi, fed by typical submersible well pump/tank combo 100 ft away) prior to a Simer booster pump that increases pressure about 25-30 psi to around 65-70psi, feeding an 86 gallon bladder tank and house fixtures. The pump has its own (internal) on/off non-adjustable pressure switch. There are check valves and relief valves where needed, and a pressure reducing valve prior to the pump to prevent it from increasing pressure beyond 75 psi max. How might a CSV work in this system?
Wow! Sounds like a mess. A 55 gallon size pressure tank only holds 12 gallons of water. It is just a pressure tank, not a storage tank. You should be able to get all the pressure you need from the well pump, and not need a booster pump and all the other stuff. The 55 gallon pressure tank is much larger than needed with a CSV, but will work fine. Just turn up the pressure switch on the well pump to 60/80, and set a CSV1A for 70 PSI strong constant pressure to the house. Then you will not need the extra boost pump, 86 gallon tank, pressure reducing valve, etc. The CSV system will work much better. last much longer, and deliver stronger pressure to the house.
Thanks for the reply. The well pump and old tank combo serve two homes, with the tank likely not having much capacity after many, many years, and piping so old that to mess with it would likely require a complete re-do. Regularly, the well pump combo delivered no more than a trickle. Meanwhile, in the pneumatic tank (air over water), the capacity is actually closer to 50/50, providing sufficient storage draw for the booster pump, as the well pump, again, has low flow, low pressure. So, getting back to the booster pump and bladder tank, these have totally corrected a decades-long problem of having little to no water after short periods of use. One problem that remains though is correcting pressure ranging (40-70) still present, since booster pump only turns on once pressure sufficiently drops. So, back to original question, would a CSV work between the booster pump and bladder tank to keep pressure more steady, or is it a problem there is no pressure switch downstream of the booster pump?
@@OccamsRazor71 What kind of booster pump do you have?
@@OccamsRazor71 If you are getting more than 25% water from a pressure tank, something is wrong with the tank. Your bandaid booster pump may have helped the pressure, but shouldn't be needed if the well pump is set up correctly. But yes the CSV will solve the cycling problem with the booster pump. But yes the pressure switch has to be after the CSV. Again, what kind of booster pump do you have?
It’s a Simer 407SS.
What if the pumps max pressure rating is 5 bar @ 75 Gpm & if I required 6 bar outlet pressure at same flow rate can I get the same if there is pressure vessel
The only way you can get 6 bar pressure from a pump that can only do 5 bar max is to have at least 1 bar inlet pressure to the pump. A pressure vessel can only store the pressure it is given, it cannot increase the pressure.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Your example shows a 25gpm pump @ 50psi, how then can the pressure switch turn off at 60 psi? Turns on at 40psi yes but from what you just said the pump can only push 50psi out to the tank and the tank can only store the pressure it is given. How then can the tank reach a pressure of 60psi to turn the pump off?
@@waltermelyon4300 Because the CSV is set at 50 PSI and will maintain 50 PSI when using more than 1 GPM. But the CSV cannot close to less than 1 GPM. So when no water is being used the 1 GPM "leaking" through the CSV has no place left to go except the tank. The tank is filled at 1 GPM until it is full to 60 PSI and the pressure switch shuts off the pump.
I understand the long term use (Taking showers), but what about short term, flushing the toilet once wash your hands, seems like the pump will kick on filling the small tank rather then not kicking on having the bigger tank that will supply the water, not having the pump kicking on just because you flushed the toilet one time.
It is not the small things that cause cycling problems. It doesn't hurt if your pump cycles on for every toilet flush, although it doesn't. What hurts is repetitive cycling during long showers or watering the yard. Your water doesn't come from the tank, it comes from the well/pump. Pressure tanks are only to reduce the on/off cycling, and when you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a large tank is just a waste of money and space. See this chart for number of cycles with or without a CSV for just house use only. The CSV and small tank still cycle less than a large tank with no CSV. Then if you have any long term uses like yard watering, there is no comparison as the CSV will cycle the pump only once, while without the CSV the pump will cycle hundreds of times.
Average Cycles Pump Cycles for
Family of Four with No Irrigation
Cycle Stop Valve Pressure NO CSV CSV50 PSI CSV50 PSI CSV50 PSI
Pressure Tank Size 20 Gallon 4.4 Gallon 10 Gallon 20 Gallon
Average Daily Cycles 35 31 25 18
As I figured the 40-60 psi difference compresses the air in the tank to about a third of its volume. So for a 60 litre tank you get about 20 liters of extra water in there that you can use before the pressure drops to 40psi and the pump kicks in. So running a 300l bath will cycle the pump on and off 15 times.
NO! With a CSV the pump will not shut off until the bathtub is full.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 I know I was counting without the CSV. It's just that the hard part to figure out is how much volume of water really leaves the pressure tank between 40 and 60 PSI of the air. According to my rough math it would be about 20 litres for a 60l tank but correct me if I'm wrong please.
@@steamsteam6607 It depends on the differential pressure. At 40/60 draw down is about 25% of total tank volume.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Thank you I got it at 1/3d but there is the mechanical aspect of the barrier as well.
Is it safe to use this system if you have no idea what the specs are on your well pump or the well depth? I keep seeing people concerned about the pressure between the pump and the CSV. When I bought my house, it came with no info regarding the well pump or the well depth but I want to try this system.
Usually yes. It is rare for a house pump to be so oversized that it builds more than 200 PSI on the inlet. But it is possible. Knowing the horsepower or amperage drawn and checking to see how many gallons a minute you can catch in a bucket will tell us what size pump you have. Or, you can just put a gauge and a ball valve on the pump and test for pressure.
@@cyclestopvalves8380I see, thanks for the reply.
I don't get why my faucet doesn't do the same thing. I have read all of the explanations and looked at the videos and I still don't get how it works. Unless it is some combination of the faucet running, the tank filling, the spring moving and the cut off switch set between 40 and 60 psi. It took me a while to understand a ground fault interrupter too. I guess I will just have to get one and hope it works.
A faucet is after the pressure tank/CSV and only controls how much water you are using. The CSV is before the pressure tank/pressure switch and controls how much water your pump is producing. The CSV knows how many faucets you have open, and makes the pump produce exactly the same amount. Without a CSV the pump is always producing more than the faucet is letting out, which causes the tank to fill and the pump to cycle on and off. The CSV just matches how much the faucets are putting out so there is no extra water to fill the tank. You could do the same thing as a CSV with a ball valve before the pressure tank if you stood there and manually controlled it. With a 40/60 pressure switch the CSV would be set to 50 PSI. So if you saw the pressure drop below 50 you could open the ball valve a little and if you saw the pressure increase above 50 you could close the ball valve a little. The CSV will automatically keep the system at 50 PSI no matter how much or how little water you are using. You can't do that with a faucet.
How many horsepower of pump should I use with the CSV?
There are CSV's sized to work with any pump. Your pump is sized to the depth of the well, the pressure that you need, and how many GPM you want to use. Then the CSV is sized to fit the pump.
Thank you
@@cyclestopvalves8380
How much is the csv and is it possible to send it to Saudi Arabia???
Cycle Stop Valves cost from $63US to $5,000US, depending on how large of a pump you are controlling. And yes we ship them all over the world.
I have a pressure tank that is going bad. it is inside a square block structure and I cannot get to the plumbing easily to replace or bypass. can I just install the stop valve combo kit inside the basement just before the water softener and not worry about removing the old tank. it is in good shape on the outside, this would essentially make it a storage tank? Also I would bypass the pressure switch at the well and wire it to the combo kit inside the basement. I just bought your kit online and wanted to start preparing for install once it arrives.
You don't have to remove the old tank, but the plumbing needs to be disconnected. You cannot have a pressure tank before the CSV.
I have a jet pump and 6 gal pressure tank at the cottage. If I were to install this valve does it get installed between the pump and the pressure tank?
Yes. And you need to move the sensing line for the pressure switch to one of the extra ports on the CSV1A or to the line close to the pressure tank. You can also just add a new pressure switch and wire around the switch on the side of the motor as shown in our wiring instructions for "jet pumps". Thanks
@@cyclestopvalves8380 yes I understand about the sensing line moving to the valve. In this case how will the pump sense 60PSI to turn off. I was thinking to purchase the CSV125. Does it have a sensing port
@@truenorthmuskoka9077 The CSV125-3 will work with a jet pump, But there are no extra ports on the CSV125 like there are on the CSV1A. You would need a tee close to the tank to have a place to connect the pressure switch.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 I already have a pressure switch at the pump. Why do I need another one near the pressure tank. My pump and tank are within 1 foot of each other.
@@truenorthmuskoka9077 You can still use that pressure switch if you want. The sensing line just needs to be extended to a tee at the pressure tank, which both the tank and switch need to be after the CSV125. Pump-CSV-pressure tank/pressure switch.
Does the well pump continue to try and make water at the usual pump flow rate? There does not appear to be any current limits placed on the submersible pump by the CSV that I can see. There is no electrical control going on between the pump and the CSV. Correct me if I'm wrong but,I can understand how when there are several things using water at the same time, the CSV might eliminate a cycle on on and off , however how would this save energy, and save your pump from excessive wear? Putting a restriction on the flow of water leaving the pump seems like a dead heading measure. The pump continues to pump at it's usual force but is held back by the CSV regulator. If there were a lessening of energy sent to the pump , wouldn't that be a method of throttling it vs physically impeding the flow? Please explain and thank you for the video.
Those are very good questions. The CSV can never completely close, so it can never deadhead a pump. There is no electric to the CSV. Pumps just normally reduce in amperage when restricted with a valve of any kind. Here is a video to explain the technical stuff. czcams.com/video/3GABhLLtjas/video.html
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Throttling down the flow to 50 GPM is making the pump work harder. Harder = more power to overcome a restriction. I'm sorry but where I come from it takes the life out of the pump and will shortens it life. Not to mention the added energy cost. Am I missing something?
@@dantedenardis1385 Yeah you are missing a lot! Pumps work just the opposite of the way you are thinking. Pumps work easier when the flow rate is reduced, not harder. The energy a pump uses decreases not increases when the flow is restricted, which increases not decreases the life of a pump. Pumps are counter intuitive, which is why you are thinking wrong. See this video for a more technical explanation. czcams.com/video/3GABhLLtjas/video.html
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Okay I might have learned just something new in this. Youare right , it is counter intuitive to think that the harder a pump pushes through a reduced orifice the less energy it is going to use. Thanks for giving me something to think about at 3am ....lol
@@dantedenardis1385 I am glad someone besides me is up at 3AM thinking about this stuff. Lol. It is one of the hardest things to explain. I have tried many ways in almost 30 years and still get the same question everyday. It is the centrifugal impeller that is the magical thing here. It only draws a load depending on how much weight it is lifting. The actual definition of horsepower is the ability to lift 33,000# of weight one foot in one minute. One gallon of water weighs 8.33 pounds. It takes a lot more HP to lift 50 gallons a minute than is does to lift 1 gallon a minute. Restricting the pump to make this happen causes the impeller(s) to just spin in nice cool lubricant and not draw any load, as they don't actually touch anything.
Do you have a current meter test showing how much current pump is drawing using CSV and not using it, I know when I stall my tablesaw it blows breakers and draws much more current, can't be any good for pump motor to restick flow to almost nothing by creating a huge back pressure?.
You would think so right? I love showing people something they don't think is possible. You are right on the fence of figuring this out. A centrifugal pump is completely different than anything else, except some fans. With the heat off, put your hand over the discharge of a blow dryer. You can tell by the sound the motor speeds up. That is because there is less air being moved and less load on the motor. Put an amp meter on the blow dryer, and you will see the amps go down even though you can hear the motor speed up. Sticking your finger in the blow dryer and completely stopping the fan will have the opposite effect. The amps will go up the same as when you bind up a circular saw. Yes I have other videos showing the amp draw of several different pumps. There is even a video showing the horsepower on pump curves to better explain how a centrifugal pump works. The back pressure is never more than the pump can produce or withstand. The back pressure is like putting your hand over the blow dryer. It makes the amps decrease, which makes the motor run cooler. Back pressure is good for the pump even though it is the opposite of what our brains are telling us. Adding back pressure is a common fix for large irrigation pumps that are drawing too much current and tripping the breakers as it will decrease, not increase amps.
@@cyclestopvalves8380 i DON'T USE A HAIR DRYER, DO you have a links to current AMP mesurements with and without valve in real time, not a CHART.
@@YIQUANONE Well a vacuum cleaner works the same way. Like I said there are lot of amp meters in my videos. There is one titled "25S20-11 Grundfos AMP DRAW". "Here's your link". czcams.com/video/_capz27LiYU/video.html
@@cyclestopvalves8380 Do you have a video that is more than 2 seconds long showing a meter?, one that shows amp draw when used and amps draw when not used?
Dearest knuckleheads,
Amperage/Current drop when flow is reduced by increasing pressure/head. When a pump is not moving water it is not doing work, hence lower work equals lower horsepower.
will this work with low flow and pressure from city supplied water?
Yes. You can use a CSV or a PK1A kit which has everything you need to make a regular jet pump boost city water pressure as high as you need. Boosting to 50-60 PSI is common, but we do lot of systems that boost to 130-150 PSI when the house in way up on a hill.
Will I have to buy a stand alone pump to go along with this kit? or does a booster pump come with it?
@@billtopp4329 The PK1A kit will work with jet pumps and multi-stage pumps from 1/2HP to 2HP. Something in the middle like a Goulds J10S would probably be a good choice for you. It can boost 10-15 GPM up to 50-60 PSI more than the incoming pressure. The CSV in the PK1A kit just makes it work like a small pump when only one shower is being used and lets you set the constant pressure where you want it.
Yes it will. Sorry I thought I answered this already.
So is this the same as a VFD?
Way better than a VFD. The CSV varies the flow rate and lowers the amp draw while giving the same strong constant pressure as a VFD. But it is just a simple, inexpensive, long lasting, mechanical valve. The CSV cost thousands of dollars less and makes the pump last decades longer than a VFD or a big pressure tank. Gee, I wonder why some pump companies will say anything to keep you from trying a CSV? Lol!