5. Learn Disc Golf Backhand Form - The Slinging Arm
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2024
- We've finally arrived at the slinging arm. We need to whip/sling the arm and disc at the target. But how do we preserve the power we generate from our weight and up the kinematic chain and get it into the disc? Let's find out!
IMPORTANT REMINDER: Do not use the images of my own form as gospel because it is a work in progress. In this module, my lower body action is not ideal. The hip rocking action in particular should appear more like this:
• Pogo Leg Hip Drill
We review problems with my form examples as cases in point at the end of the BH series:
• Spotting Common Mistak...
Highlights:
0:00 Jingle
0:12 Overview
1:10 The Sling and the Whip
2:19 Backswing Styles
5:01 Backswing Disc Orientation
5:58 The role of the shoulder
7:43 What makes the power pocket?
9:03 Let's get slinging
11:28 Get a Grip!
12:15 Wrist Mechanics
12:58 Most Common Power Pocket Mistake
Resources
Understanding the myotatic reflex + a drill: • Do You Know the Golf M...
Backswing/reachback: • The Disc Golf "Reach B... • Why I don't call it a ...
Grip location and pressure: • Grips Tips // Clean Re...
Power Pocket Explained: • Double Dragon Drill & ...
My friend, in the world of beginner disc golf tutorials, you are a miracle!
This might be it! This might be THE lesson that finally makes everything click!
Following along with trendy disc golf coach material and your stuff blows all of it out of the water. The part about letting centripetal force create the pocket vs. the weak elbow hinge obliterates the last 2 weeks of trending "use the arm" videos that came out.
You and Seabass continue to give my game a good foundation. Thanks lol.
I'm a fan of open debate and differences in perspective. I think in the long run we'll see how things play out.
@@AceItDiscGolf why do you think pros like Simon Lizotte advocate for driving the elbow after the brace when it is so obviously weak even in demonstration?
@@hoodrich4375 I'd have to ask him, but I think in general people use various cues to learn to drive maximum force toward the target line/shot apex. The "elbow down the door" or various other arm tips often seem to fall into that category. Some people appear to respond well to them if the rest of their move and posture are reasonably intact. A lot of the problems in instruction or disagreements out there occur when people try to isolate single pieces of the action in the context of the whole move.
Thank you so much for the extremely complex explanation in very simple terms. I have gained a lot of confidence and yardage not to mention I'm not killing my body anymore
I actually got the "philosophers stone" of disc golf after watching some of your stuff. Its physics. Forget about your arm. Its the gravitation. + your body weight, it truly is. shift it!
You can tell I'm highly influenced by my main mentor, but I think the more you understand how to use your legs and balance and posture dynamically with gravity, the better you can get that low-effort power into the swing!
I like technical stuff. This is the best explanation of how and why arms move that I have seen, nice explanations and thank you.
Well done sir , this is the first break down that really hit home with me. thank you.
Dude. This is by far the best breakdown of backhand form on youtube. It is pretty complicated, but hey too bad....
You're too kind!
I know, I tried to find a sweet spot between streamlined and too dense. It's hard because there are a lot of mechanics that, if missed, leave you with incomplete form. And getting them to play nice together takes time and patience. I can only show so many stereotyped examples without the vids becoming like 40 minutes. But hopefully even just bits and pieces are helpful to folks.
The one I want to dive deeper on right now is the leg/hip action for now and then I'll see how people do with the rest for a bit!
I’ve found that if I repeat these videos while going through the motions (in my living room), the complexity slowly becomes simplicity. I’ve been doing this 3 or 4 times a week (going sequentially through at least 3 or 4 videos each day), so it’s clearly not a “I watched it once, I’m good to go” approach.
OK you sir do such a good job at explaining each part of the swing! Love the physics behind it. Almost no one really talks about it when throwing a disc is really only a physics problem that you have to train your body to do it the right way following those rules. I've played for almost 10 years but only this year did I decide to completely redo for form. Its rough but videos likes yours helps a ton. Thank You. I'm a new subscriber!
How did it go with your redoing form from the ground up? Did you get a new form? Did your distance improve?
The pendulum swing did the trick for me.
Many thanks! No longer have to think about flexing my core. Arm stays loose. Shoulder lags yet leads. Extension is just right, naturally, no extra pushing away. Useful for orchestrating the timing of everything else, x-step and standstill. Finally, relief from shoulder pain that comes with holding disc high in the pocket prior to throwing!
It only took about 100 throws of field work over several days to replace "pocketing". Applied this in completion without a hitch, extra distance, consistently.
Beautiful!
YW, glad it helped!
Once you get the hang of a pendulum you can try different swing sizes/pumps to see what suits you best.
Much respect! others have tried but you are the Best instructor by far.
You tied all the throw together and I now understand. Thank you for this!
Great stuff!
Your series on disc golf form is amazing. Great work. Especially this video! I've been stuck with puling the disc for almost two years, getting nowhere. "Wide rail" and trying to walk by/around the disc made the pulling even worse for me. Once I tried your advice in this video, letting gravity do the work, it felt effortless and I gained 70-100 ft. after only a couple of field work sessions - also my shoulder and neck no longer hurts after playing. So excited! Thank you so much.
Nice! Glad it's helping. I am gathering some ideas to help with rhythm and posture for the x-step right now to help "connect the dots" & tighten things up, so hope to follow up soon!
@@AceItDiscGolf Awesome. Looking forward to it! :)
love this 5 part series, i would love to see more about nose angle, and accuracy , its been rainning here so i have yet to go out and try this, but have watched the series 2x now and been practicing in the living room. excited to finally get the hang of this as i have been "door hinging" the entire time.
Thanks! Those hinges are everywhere and I think many players have them. You can also hinge wrong in the hips/legs, which a lot of players also do and I'm still fixing in my own form. I'm adding a little supplement on that soon! Edit: I'm thinking about something for fieldwork/ practice for accuracy too. Trouble with form work is it usually gets messy every time you adjust something. I'm still fixing an issue with my own leg action I'd like to get past first then have this on the list!
@@AceItDiscGolf so ive been hinging the entire time, worked on your approach, (pendulum swing back) and dropping my heal, I still need to work on timing as the disc sometimes, go right into the ground, but i think i know why, one thing that has changed, is the disc is RIPPING out of my hand soo hard now that i can no longer use my index, there was just too much force, i think as i develop a calus , it should be ok, just need to condition it, cant not wait for your fieldwork video, on my 3rd time watching the series to see if im missing something basic/crucial.
It is so helpful to think about the weight on the feet. I haven't run into this explanation (or did and tuned it out). Excellent. It certainly helps overall with getting the same distance with less effort. Personally, I seem to fade in and out of doing these things properly, but I'm hoping that keeping these things in mind will help keep me more consistently doing them right.
Im a newer player that was able to get 300 feet with muscling it. Now im moving to drastically improve my game with proper form, science and biomechanics. With your throwing arm, keeping it loose with proper mechanics is what i am understanding is the way to go. I have one simple question, at what points do you engauge your muscles in you arm to accelerate the disk, or do you? 58 and took up disc golf last year and really enjoy the sport and want to ensure proper form to reduce injuries. Thanks !!!
Same boat, recently began breaking 300’ by muscling. How did your endeavor to improve your form end up?
Like you I started playing during Covid since we have a course across from my house. I've been starting the swing with the pocket pre-set but can see now that I'm pre-setting a pull and strong arming the disc. Both of my teenage sons can out throw me by 125 feet on average even with my best throw. The pendulum seems more natural but I would love to get some form reviews along the way as I make these changes. Are you planning on doing reviews anytime soon? I'd sign up tomorrow if you are.
Love your stuff though and look forward to seeing more!
Nice! Still considering it. You can get pro bono reviews over on dgcoursereview.com. I weigh in there from time to time and seabas22/sidewinder22 is the OG if you like a technical learning style. I teach somewhere between totally mechanical and field-based. I'm still considering a model for more formal/dedicated reviews. If I do it seriously I'd want people to feel like they're getting good value for my scheduled time.
Great content. Good balance of theory and practical drills to help capture the feel of what we're trying to accomplish. The order of your sequence is excellent. Unfortunately,
when I started, I was taught to pull through the pocket with my arm and then later I was supposed to figure out how to engage the hips. This sequence makes so much more sense to me.
Thanks! Me too, and it took me months to get the throwing arm fixed from shoulder-to-fingertips after being led astray. Now I still need to circle back and clean up my leg/hip action. More on that soon!
Hey love the content ! Just curious if you had any tips on keeping the disc higher up. I tend to “pull thru” below my nips sometimes. Not sure if its because my car accident injury where it dropped my arm slightly lower before. Its hard for me to keep it up unless i just start at my chest height.
Sometimes that pull path is ok - seabas22 pulls through fairly low. Mcbeth is on the other extreme and pulls pretty high (speculating, but it might have to do with his very long arms). And lots of people are in between. I think it mostly has to do with your body type & where you can find the best leverage. For any of the swing path issues, I think swinging a hammer slowly (if that's comfortable for you) from your backswing to smash a nail over your shoulder is the "best" way to find your ideal swing path. Then you need to learn to get your overall posture in a position to achieve that path in your DG swing. Here's seabas22 doing actual hammer throws:
czcams.com/video/Y-KVWfUkQ3s/video.html&ab_channel=seabas22
When you find that swing, you'll use the same "ideal" swing, but you'll adjust your posture for the disc golf shot. For me it felt super weird at first, but once my posture got better it was significantly more powerful/easier to throw!
Honestly the most descriptive and informative description of proper backhand form. Will probably rewatch this series 100 times over as I refine my form.
One tiny question, on the widerail reachback style, wont this very quickly move the disc in a line thats no longer parallel to the body? Since you're slightly pulling it towards you, as the disc is slightly away from your body? I could be completely wrong but thats just what it feels like when I try it
Thanks! I kind of think of it as a "backbone" for the BH form, and a thing people can return to as they interact with other resources out there and try things out. Re: wide rail, it's probably not the best place to start because it tends to work better once you have other posture/mechanical issues worked out. And it's kind of on a continuum with "walk past the disc", so I usually think working with either pendulum or walk past the disc is easier to learn first.
@@AceItDiscGolf Agreed! Its easier to understand for example the way Paul Ulibarri explains how he nearly never does standstill, but instead slows down his backhand movements. Much easier to understand with this to preface the knowledge he already has :D
Ah, I agree, that makes sense. Have a great day!
@@Phripheoniks Nice! Yes, I think you see a lot of pros scaling the x-step up and down at most ranges longer than very short upshots. The problem I had personally is that I just could not figure out how to get my lower body mechanics to work right, and am still fixing my leg action with standstills. You can also "fudge" the x-step one way or another without getting the full power of the hips. I think some people naturally get it faster/other sports backgrounds help, but there's enough confusion out there that breaking down the pieces is hopefully useful to some!
@@AceItDiscGolf Yeah I often find my lower body just walking sideways if I do an x-step upshot. So got some fieldwork to get that out! But keep doin' what you're doing, its invaluable!
@@Phripheoniks I will, thanks for the encouragement - I did just want to mention that when I do upshots (really anything w/in 200'), I often throw something like a Zone or Comet basically from just the plant leg/weight shift/front hip hockey slapshot. Sometimes I don't bother putting weight on my back leg anymore. When I do an x-step at that distance it's like you're saying - the feet are just kind of shuffling sideways, but maybe the body also knows that it doesn't need to fully load up the legs & hips to get to the basket if you get your weight/front hip into it! The x-step can help set a tempo/angles etc., just thought it was helpful to note that the power is there without the actual x-step.
I'll definitely be sharing this series with others. Nice work. One question. Is there a reason the order of videos in the playlist is in the order 3, 2, 5, 1, 4?
Thanks! I'm not gonna lie, I didn't even notice that. I think I just fixed it, thank you for bringing it to my attention!
@@AceItDiscGolf No problem! I just looked and it shows correctly now. Thanks again for your commitment of time to put all this out there for us.
Hi, I am just wondering about head placement. In this video you look back 180 degrees from the target. All the professional players I see keep their head down and more perpendicular to the target. I think that is done to maintain accuracy and keep their aiming point. I don’t know if you have thoughts on this, thanks.
Many players that attempt to do what the pros do with their head end up pulling their body out of alignment and compensating for it. The head should ideally balance over the whole body and feet, and is usually easier to learn if you let the head come back with the body and keep the eyes on the disc at first while you're learning the move and developing a full range of motion. I've also had some neck tweaks when my posture was off when swinging faster. You'll also notice that most pros tend to let the head come back more if they're really mashing the disc. As usual, I found that seabas has totally reasonable things to say in his "Worst advice" and "Ground up! Not head down!" videos
In your experience, is there any real activation of the arm muscles?
Good Q: the arm muscles will contract, but generally it's best to focus on getting the arm nice and loose and working on ground forces, posture, and the rest of the sequence first. If the grip is good, the arm muscles will attempt to hold onto the disc and stretch and contract. Think of it like a ball pulling a string taut when you swing it around, where the disc is the ball and your arm is the string. You can gain more control over that too, but if the rest of the form isn't solid it can easily lead to strong-arming!
5:38 "and it's relatively shit" 😂
I totally missed that when editing 😅
But how do you trick your throwing arm to be loose while accelerating?
Lots of work on lower body to gain power there instead of with the arm, and swinging the arm loose with your weight like shown here. If you grip the disc with "medium" grip strength when you set up your drills and throws, the hand will automatically start to learn to grip down to try and hold the disc as it accelerates. The disc will tend to pop out early at first until your body gets used to it.
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I'm having a rough time learning to.lead with shoulder. I was always taught to act like your elbowing a door down with the backhand. It's really hard learning to n lead swing with shoulder.
Elbowing the door down is fine as long as you are already in the right posture with the shoulder down like you're swinging a battering ram or shoveling snow. Focusing on that kind of motion might help get the shoulder and elbow in the right position
@@AceItDiscGolf I understand what you mean, but how do you not lead with the shoulder then? The arm hangs from the shoulder and if your arm is at 90( give or take), then the shoulder should always lead the way.
I know your videos build upon the previous, but I can't keep watching all these videos over again if I need a refresher. So, what video or 2 would you recommend that reiterates all your modules. Thanks bud and I really appreciate what you do.
Awesome videos! Are you doing form reviews yet? I’d love to get your feedback. It seems you have spent a lot of time learning from Seabass22. He’s full of knowledge. Great breakdowns!
Have a couple more vids to drop first then considering some reviews!
@@AceItDiscGolf Thanks. Another question. When using the pendulum backswing, are you addressing the trajectory line and then swinging directly back in a straight line from that point? And, will consistently swinging the disc back to a consistent point help accuracy? I've heard some people say that where your disc ends up in the backswing doesn't matter so much, it is more important to release at 10 o'clock.
@@andycaree Good Q. In the forward pump, it's more important to have the arm "uncurl" shoulder to elbow to wrist like when you actually throw. As long as you don't throw your body off axis the pump can be big or small. I'd say focus more on the alignment & sequence of your body parts.
You'll see a lot of variance in backswings. I would say to think more about the shoulder path than the exact position of the backswing. You want the shoulder to go "under and high" in the backswing with some shoulder tilt in general.
My own backswing is undergoing important adjustments right now so I'm going to recap that & leg action in my "self form roast" up next!
@@AceItDiscGolf one more question. If I am using a pendulum backswing, and it is closer to a vertical pendulum, how do determine the best arc to throw on from the peak of the backswing to release? To clarify, should the swing plane be the same back and forward? If that's the case, then a vertical pendulum swing plane on the backswing would result in a vertical swing plane moving forward. It doesnt look like that in the videos (and in seabass22's vids). So is there an easy way to explain the change in swing plane from back to front?
@@andycaree Great Q! I think this is one of the harder things to learn in this system. At the "peak" of the backswing, I recommend swinging such that the disc flight plate is roughly parallel to the ground and always at the same height at first just prior to the weight shift. Then, as you shift your weight forward, you control the direction of the throw with your posture, not the backswing. E.g., if you shift your weight "from behind" directly toward the target like Seabas22 shows in Loading the Bow, the disc should follow that shift and whip toward the target. It's hard to get at first, but once you do there's no turning back! Developing that consistent backswing is therefore key - try to get a replicable "slot" with the same height relative to your body each time. Somewhere between the top of the tummy/nipple line for most players.
Worth mentioning - most players develop a preference for a natural angle - since the pendulum style is more vertical by nature during learning, it's very easy to find a "power hyzer" or spike hyzer angle that works. Then, you can reduce the angle to close-to-flat, slight Anhyzer, roller angle, etc. I play in the woods a lot and work a lot of baby hyzer and recently baby anhyzer angles. When I'm in the open I still prefer to mash on hyzerflips and spike hyzers since my balance is better in that direction, but I'm now working on bigger anhyzers sometimes.
It's also worth mentioning that as the pump has gotten easier and easier, I switch styles - when I throw low ceiling shots or short distances, I use more of the "walk past the disc" style and a very small elbow pump since low-line control is usually my goal. But it was still easier in my experience to start with the larger pendulum and gain more and more control over it, then change & shrink it down over time. I still find it easier to throw my biggest shots with a full pendulum and a bit more vertical hop, and I'm still doing standstills almost every day to improve my swing.
McBeth also used to have a big pump that has gotten very small recently, so you can look at how he oriented his a few years ago as another example! Also Philo Brathwaite, Nate Doss, Barry Schultz, David Feldberg. Those pumps have fallen "out of vogue" as players shrink their form down, but they're perfectly good ways to throw and excellent ways to learn.