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Is it "All in the Hips"?
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- čas přidán 12. 08. 2024
- The hips are the powerhouse of the throw. We need a connection to the ground and to fluidly transfer forces via the legs to load the hips and power the entire kinematic chain. Let's start to get in better touch with ground forces! Special thanks to Sidewinder22/Seabas22, SocraDeez, Flatflip and Lostdoughnut on Dgcoursereview.com forums for discussions leading to this module.
IMPORTANT REMINDER: Do not use the images of my own form as gospel because it is a work in progress. In this module, my lower body action is not ideal because it lacks the "pogo" action in the legs, which was impossible for my knees to do until recently. The hip rocking action in particular should appear more like this:
• Pogo Leg Hip Drill
We review problems with my form examples as cases in point at the end of the BH series:
• Spotting Common Mistak...
0:00 Introduction
0:32 What is "engaging the hips"?
1:07 The plan for today
1:29 Basic hip rock in place
2:15 Fully de-weighting
3:08 Loading & swinging
3:58 "Pogo" legs & hinging
4:36 Stack up & swing
5:03 What about the X-Step?
5:16 The Drive Phase
5:52 The Plant & Swing Phase
6:29 Important notes!
7:55 CORRECTION on "Triple Extension"
Resources:
Rocking the Hips (Discussion starting Post 329 onward inspired this specific module)
www.dgcoursereview.com/forums...
Ground forces and standstills (Seabas22):
• Standstill Ground Forc...
Compact weight shifts - Paul Mcbeth vs. amateur (Seabas22):
• Long/Slow vs Compact/S...
Understanding ground forces, feet, and hip action (Be Better Golf):
• HOW KYLE BERKSHIRE use...
Understanding the "drift" and its relationship to the drive leg and weight shift (Tread Athletics):
• The "Drift" - How to S...
Drills for fundamental hip rocking:
Battering Ram (Seabas22):
• The Battering Ram
Swivel Stairs (Seabas22):
• Swivel Stairs
Hammer Swing X-Step for leverage and hip rocking (Seabas22):
• Hammer Swing X-Step
I believe you have the weight transfer after the x-step wrong. After the x-step, all your weight is on your rear foot. The front foot reaches as far forward as possible. As the front toes touch down, the left arm swings in and the hips activate which drive all the weight to the front foot as the hips twist and drive forward, and the torso twist but lags behind the hips. The weight transfer from the back foot to the front foot is a side effect of hip activation. The throw has already begun and maximum power is being generated as it is happening.
Hey, thanks for this comment! I believe the hips/weight transfer relationship is one of the most confusing parts of the backhand, and I appreciate constructive discussions. I got hurt doing it wrong several ways. Here is my current understanding of the process, and I should say that there is a 348-and-growing post exchange on dgcoursereview for those deeply interested. I linked directly to the post in the Comments section that led to what made it into this video, having thoroughly revised it after the forum discussion. I'm not sure we are actually disagreeing, and this is how I'd frame a response because I expect there will be controversial opinions. It's a little technical & I offer a disclaimer at the end. In the end, I think learning the hips is "easier done than said," but there are important things to say about it.
The hips comprise the gluteal muscles (maximus, medius, and minimus). These muscles transfer power based on their contact with the ground through the feet. Those muscles can't transfer force in isolation from the ground, and ideally will do so in a continuous process regardless of stride length (e.g. completely standstill or in a long plant stride carrying lots of momentum). See the linked vid in the comments from Be Better Golf for example in long drive golfers. Disc golf is a similar process but in different starting postures and with different lengths/numbers of strides (see also the Seabas22 video linked in Comments about weight transfer in Paul McBeth vs. an amateur for the ground force transition over the longer x-step stride).
"After the x-step", yes, after that drive foot contacts the ground, bodyweight is in contact with the ground through the rear foot. But if you are in what seabas22 calls "Hershyzer" position, your butt is leading and weight is flowing ahead of that step. The drive leg is loading/unloading like a pogo spring to accelerate that momentum forward. This process starts loading and unloading the hips (but talking about cause and effect of the "hip rock" itself is fraught as you would see in the linked discussion).
The left/off arm is coming in to collect the hips & aid the weight shift/centripetal force on top of the ground force advantage that started in the lower body/rear hip in the drive phase. The plant phase adds additional force by pogo-ing/leveraging the ground in (ideally) a continuous flow.
I agree that the "torso twist" lags behind the hips if you mean it unloads after the gluteal complex has transferred force up the chain in a continuous process. I'd be hesitant to call it a "twist" as much as "loading and unloading the oblique slings". As illustrated here, I've separated a single flowing motion into the two artificial "drive" and "plant/swing" phases to illustrate & exaggerate key processes. In the drive phase, you can see that as I illustrate an exaggerated "pogo" position, and "drift" of the weight ahead of the x-step (cf. Tread Athletics link in Comments).
As I plant at the end of the Drive Phase (segment starting 5:16 in the current video), the force is fully transferred into the plant. You can see that my drive foot is everting/pushing away the earth at the end of the drive phase, my heel has come fully off the ground, and my weight lands forcefully into the plant ("crushing the can"). The plant leg should move only as far as it needs to in order to obtain the ideal hip action after it inherits the full body weight, and the stride changes depending on the player, angle, & intended distance (which takes practice). But because I stop the swing at the end of this phase in my examples, the hip rock cannot complete, and the rear leg does not come in and counterbalance because I've abruptly stopped the force chain. You can see my upper body starting to "jerk" forward toward the target because the force is transferring, but I didn't allow my front hip to continue the force chain to lead the swing. However, it illustrates that a lot of force is generated through that drive phase and into the plant phase.
Players sometimes try to twist or "Jerk" the hips open with the core after getting an insufficient drive phase (as I describe in my module 2. LTDGB - Lower body: timestamps 11 : 00 - 11 : 46 in that vid), and otherwise plant too open by activating some set of muscles. Sometimes they "overcock" the hips as I show here. That latter problem can lead to hip-jamming, crashing into the brace, etc. to varying degrees.
Disclaimer:
Of course, I am just some person providing free content on the internet, and you should never take my word for it alone. I am learning from players much better than myself who have worked hard to figure a lot of this out before me, and I read/watch and check their sources. I engage in good-spirited, lively discussion with them on a regular basis on public forums and appreciate critical feedback. Those players and myself frequently cross-reference to sources from other sports with much more developed science than disc golf, but that does not mean every detail here is clear or well worked-out. I would reiterate that it turns out that the hips & ground force transfer are very complicated (but learnable!) processes. This is why there are PhD-level researchers in ball golf, where in that context there is a lot of money in "getting it right" to give players advantages in long drives. It is possible that I will say, show, or write something that I will want to revise later. Thus, I recommend everyone takes every source with a grain of salt, is open to good-faith discussions and trial & error, and in the end plays safe in their journey for better form. And this is also why I appreciate you bringing this up for discussion!
@@AceItDiscGolf Hey I really appreciate the detailed reply. I will review all your references. My background: I was a National Merit Scholar. I got a BS in mechanical engineering. I studied kinesiology and developed my vertical leap to 30" out of the sand (I'm 5'8" but liked to play beach volleyball). I currently run a business related to physical performance. I took up disc golf 5 months ago. I throw about 350 BH and FH, and I'm trying to get those to whatever a 5'8", 40 year old with a broken wrist/crooked arm should be able to do. Anyway, hip rocking makes zero sense to me right now from a kinesiology or mechanical engineering standpoint. I believe Mcbeth and others rock their hips as a side effect of carrying their weight back and then transferring it forward, but I certainly could be wrong. There's probably some plyometric effect with the hip rock. I believe the primary purpose of the long reach step after the x-step is to give your front leg the leverage it needs to brace against such an explosive forward weight transfer. The leg needs to be angled back into your hips to achieve the brace. I'm new to disc golf, but I understand mechanics, dynamics, I've been a student of human kinetics for over a decade. The kinetic chains in disc golf are fascinating to me.
@@sabrewolf479 Nice! (well other than broken parts). You sound like exactly the kind of person who might like to dig in on it and I appreciate your feedback. I do think that it's reasonable to call it a side effect of other processes and I've found that it's easy to talk past one another in online forums. Since I'm admittedly coming at this from an academic-but-not-kinesiology background (though some of those sources are from people with training there), I think there's meaningful content to discuss here!
Damn good drills to get the ”feeling” right for the weight shift and all 👌🏻
I think something ’clicked’ for me through these! Thanks!😄
This is what the dg community needs
Another great video, thanks again I can not wait to transition to this form
What do you think about the twirly bird drill from overthrow to learn proper backhand form?
I like that one - the idea that the swing occurs leveraged between the legs & in balance w/ the off arm is very helpful. I think the tricky part for most people is learning how to do that while also getting their full weight shifted forward and advantage from ground forces to lead the swing.
I'm sorry for asking so many questions but I need to know something. So, when we start the off arm, do we plant first then bring in off arm or does it kinda happen at same time. For me it feels like I'm planted first. But the question is do we plant before we even start the off arm? Sorry for bugging you, lol. But your a good teacher so I have to ask.
No worries, your questions help me think about everything more clearly! Sorry if I can't always reply right away.
I tend not to focus too much on "timing" because so much happens so quickly and often overlaps in time, but this is a case where I think it's pretty clear - the foot plants, and then the off arm collects in toward the hip immediately after that to help get those hips forward and balance centered on the plant leg. You'll see a *little* bit of variability at the top level, but that's often the easiest way to practice first. The key idea is that you want those shoulders loaded up back away from the target until you plant, then the off arm helps swing everything back in toward the target.
The best your posture and overall rhythm are, the easier the off arm becomes. It should feel pretty relaxed and natural in the end.
You mentioned in an earlier module ways to prevent knee injury in the plant leg. This had me wondering, how much torsion should you feel through that plant leg? namely created by the traction between your foot and the ground. Is it supposed to act like a tense rotational plant to create lag in the upper body or is it meant to act as a lateral plant but smooth pivot to maximize rotational speed about the plant?
Great question. I think people get mixed up in "lateral/rotational" speak. Yes, it is a lateral shift, and yes, it facilitates rotation. To avoid more confusion, I would say that it feels much more like the posture sitting down into a chair, but is springy like a golf swing/hockey slapshot/baseball swing. There, you are more in a posture that functions like doing a squat with weights - the knee is doing what it is designed to do and loading up and down. However, the thing you can't easily see in pro form is that they are smoothly landing/"pogo-in" into an out of that posture and the swing momentum is being pulled by that weight shift, then the arm momentum is carrying them into follow through.
It a similar way in ball golf, but with different postures. This is why spending time with seabas22's "Crush the can", "One Leg Drill", and Hershyzer drills were so important for me: you need to get comfortable leading the swing with your weight, but your leg/knee is just transfering that ground force very quickly up the chain.
Because of my own knee issues, I'm incredibly sensitive to any problems in my own plant leg since I feel them quickly, and slow down/adjust my form immediately to get a more fluid hip transfer (and get feedback for corrections/drills). I'd speculate that a lot of people are putting bad forces on their plant knee that haven't caught up with them yet.
Yea awesome thanks for the clarification, I was using my weight shift to 'stick' the side of my plant foot to the ground which lead to great knee stresses as my body rotated above the leg. Your explanation has massively cleared things up for me. Great work with these videos, I'm really enjoying your content and it's been a massive help for my form!
Hi there! Would be interesting to know how fast (in mph or kmh) you can throw standstill, meaning the disc speed, if you have measured it.
My problem is that I know in theory how to throw, also using your technique, but I'm achieving only 40 mph throws, which fly 260 feet (standstill). So I'm doing something wrong still. But would be good to know what kind of numbers I could be expecting.
Thanks for all these videos, they are actually the most helpful ones here on CZcams, and I have watched a lot of them.
Not sure, I haven't measured it and am more focused on cleaning up my weight shift mechanics for efficiency and longevity. Assuming no physical limitations, you could learn to throw much faster than 40mph from a standstill, and in my experience it's always directly related to what I get out of the x-step.
I hit 300' with Comets on one leg a couple weeks ago, but I have never transitioned well off of the rear side. You can see it all over my videos when I throw if you know what to look for. So I assume I can squeeze a little more out of standstills there off of both legs with a better weight shift among other things.
My mentor seabas22 claims 400' standstills at 43 y/o and 5'7'' - you can see his throws in various videos. That factors out to somewhere around 60mph standstill probably based on various sources out there. You'd need to ask him. My guess is my standstill is closer to mid 50s so I'm putting in the time to find another 5mph or whatever I can get. All the key stuff for background is in his "Figure 8 standstills" video.
Kristian Kuoksa and Corey Ellis also have cannon standstills (Kuoksa has 500', not sure about Ellis but it's up there). It's hard to find good angles but I recommend looking at them. What do they have in common? Great leg action w/ an outstanding weight shift along with everything else.
So far seabas22 mechanics training has never steered me wrong and I always reduce effort when I make a tweak he suggests, and often end up with more consistent effortless distance and accuracy with practice over time.
My friend recently got a radar gun so I'll check that out when I get an opportunity.
@@AceItDiscGolf Will look more closely at seabas22 throws.
I also have a radar gun and a throwing net inside the house, so I can track progress easily.
Kuoksa is a familiar player, coming from the same country as me.
Now at 43 mph as my record. :D
All the best!
Also one thing to try:
Maybe you can test yourself by a forehand throw. The technique should be simpler in that throw. If you can't throw forehand very fast, maybe it's your arm that's lacking power.
🤔
@@RBadding Simpler indeed, but I had a shoulder injury from throwing baseball poorly years ago - so far I'm only throwing FH at approach distances but I will be working on it more next year. It's the mirrored mechanics of the BH so my FH has been getting better just from that progress. I'll check it out 🙂
nice
Legs drive the hips. So to me it's all in the legs
Maybe unrelated to the video here, but I've always had a big issue with my rear foot pointed pretty far backwards. I know some pros can get away with this but for a short stocky guy like myself, I need to take advantage of all the best leverages I can get. I find it very hard to keep my rear foot perpindicular in the x-step - partly due to poor mobility, probably, and the other because I've got big legs that seem to want to get in the way lol. Did you ever have an issue with this, or any advice for this in particular?
Totally, great question. I personally had mobility issues from rear hip to throwing shoulder until I worked on that specifically, and as I'll review in an upcoming "self-form roast", I've struggled with rear foot position too that gradually improved with time.
My first general advice is to work from standstills/one steps/very short x-step lengths. It seems trite, but the reason standstills are so powerful is that if you learn to get good ground leverage and transfer it up your chain, you'll realize the difference and want to stop throwing any other way. Balance over longer strides is hard but learnable. And you can learn to throw surprisingly far without moving far along the ground at all. I typically only use a short x-step because I'm still making significant distance gains. I'm also pretty top-heavy with short-ish limbs, so I eventually learned I need to throw more compact and upright than I thought I did at first.
The second and specific thing is to go to Seabas22 Inside Swing Drill. It teaches you alignment and gives you the feeling of being coiled against that rear foot, which must be forward aligned to get the best leverage toward the target. You should feel like you're coiled up against that rear foot, and the only way to get the best coil is to have that foot turned in/toward the wall enough to get good ground leverage.
When actually throwing, I did have to spend a lot of time trying & reminding myself to turn my rear foot closer to the target than I thought I did. It almost felt like it was pointing TOWARD the target at first. But then realized in video reviews it had a natural, "neutral" position like when I'm standing upright - it just was much more connected to the ground and shifting me laterally toward the target. It felt really weird at first since I was not used to getting good leverage off of it. So I think doing drills with slight "overcorrections" help your body sort it out over reps, and taking it to the field will vary per player - pick one thing at a time to work on (it definitely did not happen overnight for me and I have plenty left to do!)
On the hip rock mentioned, I'm still a tad confused. Is this the point where the rear hip gets below the front hip plane in the rotation?
Try not to overthink it (ironic coming from me, I know). My legs and knees are healthier now and can move much better, so let me suggest this. Try to get in an athletic posture and get nice and loose and bouncy. Then, practice taking that bounce into a wider stance and move like I do here. I like to use music with a clear time signature and heavy beats to help integrate my timing & tempo:
czcams.com/video/gAoWXaIAPGE/video.html&ab_channel=AceItDiscGolf
Can I email u with questions? I have a question about offarm. Seabass22 talks about the Jarvis move but then he talks about just bringing the elbow in. I'm so confused on what I should do with the off arm. Could you possibly explain the Jarvis move a little better because I don't believe there's a counter swim with the Jarvis move. I can push off my inner thigh, but it feels like I'm rotating my upper back and shoulders. Any help would be much appreciated.
Watch my rear arm in my developing form here:
czcams.com/video/Kjusz5Y2KDo/video.html&ab_channel=AceItDiscGolf
The elbow is coming in to help collect my hip into the plant. Then watch my lower arm "swim" through just like it would if I was doing a freestyle swim in a pool.
The Jarvis move works exactly the same way - the elbow is helping drive the hip into the plant (think sideways/laterally, not rotation- the rotation will happen on its own if your body is in the right position). Like this (I'm exaggerating it greatly):
czcams.com/video/qzyZzNq51Fs/video.html
Then it's doing the swim - but the swim is just "swimming against" the thigh rather than coming down to the side of the body. So do this motion but against your upper thigh:
czcams.com/video/qzyZzNq51Fs/video.html
Drew Gibson has a very pronounced and aggressive swim move. I decided to work on one more like Bradley Williams because I also had a really hard time getting my arm to calm down and it is helping me smooth everything out.
I'm 6'1'' and down to 230lbs now, but you can see I have a long torso, short arms, and wide shoulders - that's why I can't really demonstrate a proper Jarvis myself! Can look at e-mail but need a heads up b/c I don't check it often (got like a million things to monitor :-))
@@AceItDiscGolf thank u so much for taking the time to answer my questions. So, just to reiterate, it's OK, to push off inner thigh? So, I put my hand on my thigh, then I Swim against my inner thigh, which really twists and rotates my back and shoulders. I'm using my inner thigh as leverage to rotate
You recommend no X-step until you can throw 400ft from a standstill?
Haha - I was being a little playful - I'm learning a lot from players who have learned to do that. It gives you a very good sense of control & how to use the mechanics and ground to generate power. But I don't think that's the only way to learn, so I encourage people to try lots of things out. And we all have different goals. In my case, I had a lot of trouble learning the x-step mechanics. I've backed up to standstills to clean certain things up. Even though I am currently practicing a lot with standstills to tighten stuff up right now, I usually use a small, controlled x-step on the course. So my general recommendation would be "shrink your x-step/slow it down to get control over mechanics, and also consider spending more time to get better power with your standstills too."
@@AceItDiscGolf I was about to ask the same thing as this guy. This could be the wrong type of question, but I've trying to re-tool my throw and have went back to a standstill(now standstill and x-step go the same distance), but is there a bench mark people should be shoot towards before mixing in any kind of steps to the throw when relearning?
@@drdefi54321 This really is a tough question. I think I'd currently say "it's never a bad idea to work on your standstills. It's also never a bad time to work on the x-step if your standstill mechanics are decent." I'm not sure there's a specific number I'd advise, but I'd say most people can learn to throw a standstill a lot farther than they thought possible. A lot of people report or show a 15-20% distance gain in an x-step if the standstill form is very clean. So I think it's important to decide what your distance goal is and work from there.
The real reason I think standstill training helps so much is because the x-step should ideally be like "walking into a standstill" - the mechanics in a high level throw are the same. Simplifying the throw and getting cleaner and cleaner standstills mechanics will tend to make the x-step better because your old throw will start to feel weak, clanky, and crappy compared to a tight standstill. The better the standstill is, the more your x-step will boost your power (and reduce effort) even if the x-step is not ideal at first. And you have less things to worry about when learning a standstill because you don't have to account for the extra strides leading into it.
I'll tell you how I do it and of course everyone might be different. My x-step is still getting better even though I'm currently tweaking stuff in about 95% standstills in my "throwing dungeon". I choose one or two goals and throw over and over for 15-20 minutes, checking video every 10 throws or so. Then, I throw in a few x-steps at the end of my basement sessions. But when I'm on the course, I often use a very compact x-step - I try to make it as small as possible no matter what shot I'm taking. That's because there's more to the x-step than just stepping - it's how you line up the target, adjust posture for the shot, whatever. I can tell when a shot is going to be good because it "feels" like a standstill - I just walked into it.
I also do a lot of seabas22's "hammer swing x-step" with hammers and now kettlebells. It helps get my balance and rhythm tighter and tighter over time, and has been fixing my leg mechanics. Soon I think I'll probably spend more dedicated time on my x-step again to improve it for distance shots, but only after my standstills are giving a nice clean "punch" on nearly every single throw. I'll talk about this in a longer self-critique vid that I'm about to post.
My power has started to jump up again recently using this strategy. Keep in mind that my goal is to push to get the highest level swing I possibly can. So as a very impatient person, I've had to develop a lot of patience!
@@AceItDiscGolf Thanks for the quick and detailed reply, this is exactly the type of info I need. I've started doing seabas22's drills as well. I don't have the spare time I wish I had for practice, so I need to make my field work/practice count. Keep up the great work, for my learning style, this series is the best I've found, and I've watched them all.
@@drdefi54321 Sometimes I wish I could drop everything/my body could throw every day! Honestly just 5-10 minutes of focused drills can go a long way over time. Keep chippin' at it!
I'm sorry, I just don't understand the hip rock thing. I never heard of it before these videos. I know seabass22 has drills for it. I just don't get why the hips have to rock. The way I'm understanding it is it's like a teeter tooder at a park. Also don't really know why we.need to know about triple extension. This is no offense to you, I just don't understand these things.
You can think of this one more like an "academic" module. There's a link in the description that gets you to the very long thread about hip action in the backhand and related content. A lot of people say things like "engage the hips" but either don't understand how it happens or can't get the right leg action. This module was just to clarify that the hips rock because of good posture and leg action against the ground. I'd say it's not "obligatory" to understand fully because I think you want to figure out the leg action and then the hip action happens automatically.