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Hey, thanks for commenting! If one idea doesn't work, try another! I will provide a bit more context in case it helps. I may be missing your intent, but the idea is not to hit something and stop. It is to hit or slash or drive through the release point like other high level athletic moves. You will hear this concept in most throwing and swinging sports. Not everyone responds well to a given version of this idea, however. For instance, I was trying to learn the "slash through" version, but it wasn't until I hit a physical object that it "clicked" for me. But that's also probably because I had been doing martial arts for more than a decade and the idea of committing through a release point/hit point/whatever you want to call it was much more natural to my body when I physically struck something. Thinking also did not help me. I had to try various actions until one "clicked." Unfortunately, I find it hard to predict which concept is going to work for a given person, but usually something closer to what they were already good at works faster (e.g., McBeth with baseball swings and throws, Josh from Overthrow with tennis, me from martial arts, etc.). One thing I still find odd but worth mentioning is the "gestalt" of the move. In motor learning, bodies either tend to "get it" or not. Like when babies suddenly go from crawling to a rudimentary walk. I'm still very much a developing player, but I find it interesting that the "hammer/hit/slash/throw/punch through" part of the move is either there, or it's not. I can literally tell from throw to throw now. Good throws (high power/effort ratio and clean throws with good accuracy) have it. Bad throws don't.

@@AceItDiscGolf thank you so much for the reply. I realized from the way you were explaining it that my concept was incorrect. I'll try to elaborate a bit. In my mind, I was hitting a steel door with an imaginary hammer. Because it's a steel door, all the power goes into the door and the hammer stops dead against the steel door and maybe leaves a dent in the door. I think the better thought is that the door is made of plywood and instead of hitting an immovable steel door with a hammer, you blast through the plywood door, destroy it and the hammer swings all the way through the door. I would really like some insight on another issue I'm having if you don't mind answering. When I try to load my rear foot, it spins away from the target. Including a clip for reference. czcams.com/users/shortssPFl-kgUFhg?si=9hozV5JfBC6zJre5

@@samhowl1152 I think that was a keen insight: "the better thought is that the hammer destroys the plywood door." Around the same time I was learning this part of the action, I literally hit plywood with a sledgehammer too (completely unrelated to disc golf). I'd say it is a similar feel. Just like my heavy bag, there's a little "give" in the target. I had the "ah ha!" moment when my little hammerhead punched clean through the bag with no effort. Air has negligible resistance and a lot of give compared to your arm, so it's maybe closer to smashing plywood than steel. What the plywood or steel give you is just physical feedback - it's a proxy for the real thing in air with the disc. Now kind of a philosophical question is whether the plywood is really different from steel - you could still try to commit the blow through the steel to dent it like you said, but there is real immoveable resistance by sufficiently thick steel. I guess however you think about it, discs aren't hammers, but the "slash/smash through" is accessing whatever that "striking through" effect is in your body and brain. I've seen enough people struggle with this so I'm not sure any one thing works for 100% of people. Your clip: it's rotated sideways for me, but it looks like you are kind of spoiling the leverage as you x-step and turning your hips fully back away. Instead, you want it to work more like running sideways 100 yards. You could try this drill: proxy.imagearchive.com/e80/e80b27bbed4ecb4168411b0b05ef7e61.gif Also seabas22 Hershyzer drills. Advanced X-step is very difficult to learn, take a piece at a time & hang in there!

When I do that it feels like I don't have enough time to turn my torso back. I see what you mean about getting a leveraged feeling from it though. How do I turn back while doing that? Mine kinda looks like the demonstration where he's not getting much torso rotation either.

I think it's a little less about smarts for me and more about lots of little motion experiments/openness to trying things and seeing their effects. You might end up between type 1 and 2. If I'm saying anything useful at all in this video, it's just that people are on a continuum for how much their form emphasizes more body mass or more athletic speed/explosiveness or both.

Good Q IMHO. I'm not entirely sure yet. AB does a few things that are a little unusual and surprising, so I'm trying to learn more about what he is doing. I'm talking about "two styles" here where the difference is probably more like a continuum. E.g., when I throw full power standstills I can either use Model 1 or Model 2, which is when I started to understand it better in my body. Model 1 recruits a smooth accelerating kinetic chain. Model 2 is still pretty smooth, but gets way more "burst" firing out of the backswing, and way more "catapulting" of the elbow forward to lead the shot. I think Model 2 is part of what Clint Easterly figured out at least partly on his own - it requires probably more athleticism of a certain kind (just a guess). I would never generalize just from myself, but just as an anecdote I can't really do it in X-step myself (or if I do it gets me a little more speed, but is also a little harder on my body). I think/guess there's stuff between Model 1 and 2 that probably work depending on the goals.

I still believe there is a pool of common ideas form should entail. Mostly I am beginning to acknowledging a continuum of styles people talk (and often argue) about. Some people focus on leading with the theoretical center of mass, some only focus on the center of physical body. Some focus on swinging out from the center, some focus on pulling across horizontally. Some focus on the elbow lagging the shoulder, some focus on the elbow "catapulting" and leading the shoulder a bit in the sequence. Rather than just believe any one exact sequence of posture is right for everyone, I keep an open mind and just little differences in drill moves to try and isolate what is different. In golf, baseball, tennis, javelin etc. people entertain a set of widely agreed upon principles, with some individual differences and "unexpected" findings from the data. Disc golf is only at the beginning stage of data collection, so it's going to be interesting times indeed.

@@AceItDiscGolf The answer is there is one correct way to throw. If we don’t know what that is yet then that’s fine but the longer it takes to figure out it’s going to lead to more injuries and less people in the sport. It’s sad to see popular channels like OT claim there are 3 different braces. That isn’t possible and that claim is not only negligent but slows the progress of the sport.

@@CherryB0mb333 would you agree that Kuoksa and Gurthie use the "same" form, or are fundamentally on a continuum, or are two fundamentally different forms? Or would you say that there is insufficient knowledge to answer those questions?

@@AceItDiscGolf I haven’t seen kuoksa throw but I have heard about some drama between him and spin doctor

@@CherryB0mb333 Yeah I'll avoid saying too much publicly but it's another example of the very hot debates about form leaking out. I think it will continue to get hotter before it gets cooler. I spend a lot of my time talking to everyone "behind the scenes" including with people who actually collect data. I'm sure I'll say things I regret later but I am always attempting to learn. I try to be careful not to be too conclusive too early (I am a scientist by day trade). I have one model in my head, but I am sure parts of it are incomplete or wrong, at least at some level of approximation. So I think that's why you see me tend to put questions in the subtext sometimes - I want people to think about them a little, and I never assume I have the "best" answer, and try to avoid overgeneralizing - now more than ever. If there really is "one true form" I am happy to know about it (I tend to believe there is, at least at some level of description, for generating safe and high power, but we don't really know how to agree about that yet). Right now everyone is just looking at different parts of the elephant. Some of it is going to turn out to be wrong. Some of it is probably "known" and will stand the test of time. Some of it is going to be strange and slightly confusing at first like some of Merela's or Taylor's data, etc. Still sincerely interested in your answers to my questions - they're not rhetorical. I appreciate these discussions no matter where they come from my friend.

Haha thanks man. Had a 2nd kid and was taking a little time to work on my slightly busted body since I'm inching closer to 40 and trying to turn my body into a thrower is not always easy. Glad to be back and to hear the kind words - they make me hopeful the time is worth it.

@@AceItDiscGolf awesome to hear, grats on growing the family! Looking forward to seeing more videos, I've tried the pendulum alot as a bigger guy but haven't really figured out the timing but am always stoked to see different perspectives!

@@timeandspacevintage3380 yeah it's not for everyone. Definitely requires more of a balancing act than I first appreciated. If people just can't make progress in any one way, try another!

It's the big man! Thanks for dropping in. If you like it, I like it. I'll keep playing with more "compare and contrast" concepts since they're keeping me motivated recently.

@@AceItDiscGolf heck yeah!

Totally understand and it is an interesting problem space for me now. Some of these things turn out to be just sort of variations on a theme with different implications. Do you have any specific questions or things that seemed most unclear? That will help me frame a follow up!

Hehe. Well, I am not in the shoes business, but my heel wear went down after I started to balance better, so it changed the foot pressures and took torque off the sole of the shoe (and my knee and hip). Always be improving balance!

@@AceItDiscGolf what should I do? It happens regardless of the brand or the material. When you come into your plant leg, are you stomping hard into the heel? I think this is what causes it, but I'm thinking maybe I'm somehow losing the energy into the heel, destroying it over time.

yep, aceitdiscgolf at gmail for inquiries. Sometimes live is the only way to go.

I agree with this down to my heartstrings. Even since I started I've become much more focused on "holistic" learning that helps make progress even if sometimes you need to drill down on details. One of my deeper observations (or sometimes fears) is that almost anything someone has said in disc golf works in a certain context (which is kinda the not so subtle theme of my video here). The problem like you're saying is where to start and where to go to achieve your goals. Not every coach-student-content combination is going to work. And even if you have a coach, many people are still going to need to put in a lot of work on their own to "self coach." And right now we have little cases I'm aware of that result in "bad blood" and strong disagreements among coaches. I think we'll have progress, but it's a long road ahead.

I think every player I've ever seen who isn't already Simon Lizotte has something to learn about it. I've gotten much more interested in fundamental balance when I realized I could suddenly guess and "see" it function in players. I'm not always right, but it changed everything about how I perceive form. See if you can take that balanced tilt forward aggressively. Your posture might end up different than your neighbor's - get that body moving with momentum and you're halfway (ish) there!

@AceItDiscGolf yes I have thought the same about Simon. How about Drew Gibson? I always thought he had really great balance in transition as well and his is one I actively try to mimick

@@Winton-fam I think in a way, the main difference between Simon and Drew is that Simon just started younger at around 2 years old. That lays down deeper and more permanent motor learning. Maybe that's why Simon and his incredible balance has always reminded me of a dancer more than anyone else, not sure. I think Drew went through a lot of revisions in his form, some of which I mentioned in my Evolution video. Drew's move over the rear side is top tier. The only thing I caution people about is that his bracing sometimes results in a bit of a knee snap which we know in other contexts is probably rough on the joint. But I personally have no problem using him as a top tier form reference and still study his balancing act a lot. Actually I remember something that Drew said that I take to heart at my current stage: "I'm trying to get off of my rear foot as fast as I can." There's something very important to learn there (as long as you are in balance!). I simply cannot balance as well as Simon and I never will even though I was a dancer for a while. But what Drew is saying is an excellent idea to keep in mind. My own coach and I were talking about my damaged rear leg and gait issue. We both seemed to think that my move could work kind of like young Gibson before he cleaned a lot up, but I'll probably never get to the "elite" motion due to my physical limits and later-in-life learning.

You're welcome! I'm glad it's helping you. I always remind people that my movement was still not great in these videos so never use me as an exact reference for them, but I would still stand by most of the learning ideas.

I am now 38 and still working hard on my form, but also smarter. I reach into my dance toolkit to learn to move with momentum quick and smooth and turn it into power. I use exercises that make me more flexible, balanced, and strong in the legs and core and leveraged at the wrist. I use a more centrifugal form that is a little more "old school" because it is more sustainable for my body type (I have tested others) and still gives me a good power/effort ratio. I learned as much as I could about mechanics and how they can explain how pros move and took as much as I could from it working with my coach. I've supplemented what my coach has taught me with ideas from others and my own body's best muscle memories from elsewhere. IMHO choose your own goals, develop patience in your form and in developing form, and it can carry you far. Remember to have fun in the meantime. Throwing frisbees should be fun. Here's my form now, give or take a tweak or two. It's not perfect, but it's mine. czcams.com/video/5zi1ipVg-HY/video.html&ab_channel=AceItDiscGolf

Yeah, you can either keep it tight/rear hand in the pocket, or allow the rear shoulder to abduct/shoulder to retract back. The first way is usually easier to learn in the weight shift, the second way is where you see most pros end up. It became easier for me to abduct/shoulder retract moving back after a lot of work on my feet and weight shift.

Do you have a way to contact you for virtual form reviews?

I'm a fan of open debate and differences in perspective. I think in the long run we'll see how things play out.

@@AceItDiscGolf why do you think pros like Simon Lizotte advocate for driving the elbow after the brace when it is so obviously weak even in demonstration?

@@hoodrich4375 I'd have to ask him, but I think in general people use various cues to learn to drive maximum force toward the target line/shot apex. The "elbow down the door" or various other arm tips often seem to fall into that category. Some people appear to respond well to them if the rest of their move and posture are reasonably intact. A lot of the problems in instruction or disagreements out there occur when people try to isolate single pieces of the action in the context of the whole move.

I really appreciated this comment. You're welcome! This winter after having our 2nd kid, I decided to do something new and stop doing fieldwork altogether. I always find it much harder to work on distance, and I was still getting too much wear and tear on my knees and hips. I saw a photo of me with my niece with my overdeveloped upper body and chicken legs and decided I needed to make some serious changes at 38 y/o. I replaced my workouts with dumbell-weighted forward, reverse, transverse, side, and walking lunges, duck walks, and numerous club swinging exercises from WeckMethod and similar workouts. Legs are stronger and moving better, core is more limber and powerful, and my balance is improving. I don't know how my form and distance will look after I shed my winter layers, but I'm making it through rounds less fatigued and less inflamed and throwing more easily. I think there's something to learn from everyone out there who is trying to share knowledge. Best advice there is like finding any good coach, doctor, or therapist - your match to their instruction and content is important. Seabas IMHO still has the best overall mechanical "method" and understands weight shifting and posture better than anyone else. Others are slowing catching up and making innovations worth paying attention to!

My coach literally shares videos of Elvis dancing sometimes 🙂 If you liked this, his Turbo Encabulator series of moves on CZcams has better weight shifting than mine overall.

Nice! You'll see people disagree about this approach even on fundamental grounds. My advice is to learn what you can from it because there are clear mechanical efficiency methods. Even if you don't end up throwing like David Feldberg, you can learn alot about throwing without busting up your body. You can always and momentum and effort on top of the mechanical advantages. Some body types may work better with forms that are less pendulum-y, but I advise everyone to tinker with it.

Nice! Just pay attention to how your body can swing and toss that thing with minimum effort nice and wide out from the body! Let me know how it goes.

Thanks man, I think I can benefit from more frame wise breakdowns in the future!

Was gonna say the same thing. The amount of time I'm wasting going back and forth in coverage is insane.

@@sanderaul4420 if you check the main video description on any of these Early Vs. Late topics, I always link the form videos I discuss so you can use and slow them down at your leisure! I'll use frame wise scrolling to review specific form points in the future!

Good stuff! I'll be thorough on each point here: I have a couple more McBeth clip from very early on. As one of the recent vids I mentioned that he use to use very significant "pendulum" action before he made it much more compact, and illustrates why parts of the move could be described as a "swing" of the arm (which is controversial to say in some coaching circles, but IMO is worth paying attention to). Paul has changed bits of his form maybe more than anyone and is super versatile. Might be able to do a longer form evolution one on him if I get enough clips together! Off arm + speed: I can really only ever guess the "feel" vs. "real" part, but Gibson himself has himself said he just tries to "get the rear arm out of the way." It definitely has a speed/rotation advantage. Minimally, the rear arm starting in and coming further in tight inside his posture will help rotation once he plants like a ballerina's move. When I work on mine it's taking a page out of his book because I've found it more comfortable to work with than some other moves. As a tall/short limbed guy it makes it easier to find acceleration at least. I definitely find that it's easy to "overcook" the move. Sometimes less is more. Late acceleration: It's not easy, and it's not even all of the story. My own form can now generate a lot of late acceleration: i.imgur.com/uvFoXDD.gif and it's now even better in my standstills even when I move very slow. Watch the speed of the disc coming out at the end relative to how slow my body moves up until that point. This is the "tip of the whip" effect: czcams.com/video/fU1r1TXsFMA/video.html How do you get it, and should you want it? Part of mine has come from a lot of work with golf-like drills and surrendering to "freewheeling" form like young Drew (2013 and 2014 are good examples). IMO it is often a mistake to try and get form to be to compact before you find the sources of easy power. In fact, even just this week I realized that I had gotten too bunched up again and had to get more loose and wide and "freewheeling." The "easy" power sources are gravity, momentum, and letting your body move in the largest range of motion it can, and then adding more athleticism from there. The peak acceleration also benefits from the stretch reflect coming faster out of the peak of the backswing, then FURTHER accelerating out of that reflex late. I usually tend to think it's better to work on the first thing first, but some people emphasize the other end of it and "burst" out of it (like Slingshot or Jaani) and generate a lot of power (which is awesome if you're moving well enough to take advantage of course!). My own coach (seabas22) just focuses consistently on efficiency and letting power come from there, so this is the path I'm on. I would also never neglect the importance of the stretch/reflexive part and still find it easier to use and manipulate in my standstills than x-step. I'd be curious how fast Gibson and Tamm are actually moving along the ground before they plant. Drew actually moves pretty quick in a full power drive, but also gets deceptively higher than you'd think before something like a 15" total drop into his plant. Tamm appears to have very deliberate strides, but he's a very tall dude so my bet is he's moving faster than it looks along the ground with his super long legs. He doesn't hop as much as Drew and he doesn't stride much either, so his drop appears smaller. Drew has outstanding levers for his height, but Tamm's might be even better, so his whip effect will be at least as good or better. Last, while Drew definitely has a lot of vertical force, there's gotta be a lot of horizontal from his move along the ground. Maybe more than his vertical - I wish we had good measurements. Speed of knee locking: my answer for Drew is "probably yes," but I'd caution about that little hyperextension because that's a "jerk." Compare his knee to modern Simon or Eagle, who don't have quite as much of a jerk at the knee or hip even though their braces are clearly super strong. In my own case I've also noticed that certain ways of moving into the brace in me or other players cause automatic jerks at the knee when bracing hard against momentum. Since I already have knee problems I'm very sensitive to that, so I try to make my brace and knee action strong, but move in ways that do a bit less of a jerk.

Thanks for all of the insight! I hadn’t really thought about that they may move horizontally quicker than it appears. With Conrad, it is obvious he is moving quickly, but with them, the simplicity of it and length of levers may disguise the speed. I think Paul mentioned he has diminished the left arm because of timing. He maybe has become so efficient in some ways that he doesn’t need the back arm as active as it used to be. I also don’t know that Paul ever throws 100% power shots these days. He has seemed to emphasize the control more so maybe that is why his form has evolved some as well. Thank you for all the comments and videos!

@@McDroogy3 yeah all makes sense to me. I also thought it was interesting to hear Paul mention that he's switching to slightly more understable discs now too, mentioning aging/wear and tear. I also agree & it looks to me like that left arm has gotten a bit more subtle recently, and I know he mentioned tweaking it around worlds 2022 to help his weight shift and balance. I'm wondering how he's going to look next year and if he will rely even a bit more on finesse. Would love to see him competing at a high level for a long time

Thanks Nick! Glad it's helpful. Depending on how long your rear arm is, resting the hand on the rear thigh is a really good trick like you see Gibson working on in the rear view of him in 2014. My arms are pretty short, so the "don't spill the beverage" idea my coach (seabas) likes to teach has worked better for me. I think going full-tilt freewheeling like baby Gibson can also teach you things and has probably helped his action become so smooth and integrated with momentum now. But (in my experience) it is maybe harder to use for consistency for most people.

I think some people can just "get it", but many of us need to dig a little deeper. Glad some of it is helping!

I'm going to do my best to take it as far as I can!

Could be. The forward pump or pendulum should "feel" like it helps your rear leg swing into the X-step. Think about how the arms pump when running to help momentum carry to the opposite foot. Or think about jumping straight up with an arm pump to help lift you higher off the ground. Same idea, except you're doing it sideways toward the target with the leg crossing behind.

My man, thank you 🙂 Never forget the pump! You know I'm not :-)