AMD has Come a Long Way
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- čas přidán 24. 04. 2024
- Jim Keller of Tenstorrent discusses rejoining AMD back in the day, the competition between AMD and Intel, and the Future of Nvidia.
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AMD: Rat-free since 2013
Anyone: Asks Jim Keller a question.
Jim: I read a book on it. It's not too complicated.
More shocking than AMD coming back to life and thriving is that Lisa Su is both capable of doing that AND sustaining momentum. In fairness, that's because AMD has a lot of catching-up to do, but usually "revolutionary leaders" don't make for good leaders in calmer, more prosperous times. Lisa Su is just that good.
Sorry for being ignorant, but what did she really do? It's not her who made / designed the chips(?)
@@sdHansy She isn't the one personally making CPUs of course, but she enabled the moves that led to Ryzen and a renewed Radeon, along with cutting deals to get AMD chips in consoles.
@@sdHansy every team needs leaders
These deals also made the Steam Deck possible@@FlyingCIRCU175
A good leader is able to enable their team to do their best
AMD helped me with my down payment for my house, i can never thank jim and lisa and zen architecture enough
if you bought Nvidia instead they'd help you with a down payment for a mansion
Jim Keller is a legend, not just because he's probably the biggest tech genius on the planet, but because he's really chill with a great sense of humour. People say that the FX-series was horrible but, for most people's purposes, the FX-8350 was more than good enough. I used an FX-8350 from 2012 to 2017, a CPU that I bought brand-new (with a cooler) for literally $170CAD.
I was initially looking at getting a Ryzen 5 1600X, not because I needed to upgrade, but because I was interested in the new architecture. At the time, my FX-8350 ran every game that I wanted it to without issue. I had just wanted to see what Zen was like and, after five years of the same CPU, I was ready for a change. I walked into a Canada Computers and they had an open-box R7-1700 for literally $20CAD more than an R5-1600X and it came with the most unique Wraith cooler that AMD has ever released, the Wraith Spire RGB. IIRC, only two or three CPUs ever came with that cooler which makes it a bit of a curio. It worked just fine.
My R5-3600X came with a standard Wraith Spire and I didn't bother switching it. My stepfather bought an R9-3900X and that came with a Wraith Prism. The problem was that he HATES RGB (he's REALLY old-school that way) and was complaining abouti it. So, I offered him my unused Wraith Spire in exchange for his Wraith Prism snd he bit like Harry the Tuna so now I'm using a Wraith Spire. The AMD box coolers are so underrated that it's downright criminal as that Wraith Spire, a cooler that came with a hexacore CPU, cools his R9-3900X dodecacore CPU just fine.
This is why I didn't begrudge AMD when they switched their hexacore CPUs to the Wraith Stealth. The Wraith Spire was clearly overkill and, since so many noobs think that box coolers are unusable anyway, I'm sure that a lot of Wraith Spires went unused. That was money that AMD was literally pissing down the drain so the switch to the Wraith Stealth, a cooler that is far more suitable for six cores, was a smart move in my opinion. As for the Intel stock cooler, well, to avoid saying the 1,001 negative things about it that are in my head, I'll just say that it's good enough for an i3. 😁
We all owe Jim Keller a huge debt of gratitude because the PC landscape is what it is today LITERALLY because of him. First, he created AMD64, the 64-bit x86 instruction set for the Athlon64, an instruction set that today, ALL x86 CPUs use (AMD, Intel and VIA). Then we also have him to thank for Zen (Ryzen) which not only brought AMD back from the brink, but also gave us, without a doubt, the greatest x86 platform ever created, AM4. Here we are in 2024, EIGHT YEARS after AM4 was released and AMD somehow STILL managed to release new AM4 CPUs in 2024 (R7-5700X3D anyone?).
To say that everything Jim touches turns to gold would be an understatement. He doesn't have a touch of gold, it's more like he has the Rhodium touch!
Thank you Jim, for everything (and I do mean EVERYTHING!). There aren't many of us old-schoolers still around that remember the trick of using an RLL controller with an MFM hard drive. I was just lucky to have built my first PC in 1988, before I was even a teenager. This makes me REALLY understand and appreciate all you've done for us.
I can't wait to see what you achieve with AI, but please, just don't call it SkyNet, eh? 😉
AMD my beloved
Go somewhere else fanboy
@@inqizzo damn cant even like things anymore lmao
@@inqizzolol, tell me you’re 15 without telling me that you’re 15
@@inqizzo 🤡
@@inqizzo go somewhere else Nvidia fanboy
That AMD story is crazy. My first PC was AMD’s Bulldozer and my boyfriend did Intel. His was way better but I was stubborn and when Zen was teased I said “Zen’s going to change everything”, now Ryzen is amazing and totally viable.
Bulldozer in gaming was fine. This idea that it sucked was bullshit. In fact, if you were an early streamer, the 8 core 8350 out performed the intel 3770k when gaming+streaming. Sure raw gaming the 3770k was better.... It was also significantly cheaper.
I dont care about the bullshit "amd got sued and lost meme" they didnt lose, it was cheaper to settle than to pay lawyers for an unknown amount of years to prove they know more than some customer twat who decided to sue. Everyone who had bulldozer back then, saw in windows 8 cores reported. It wasnt until right before ryzen that magically the lawsuit came about, AFTER Microsoft changed their code which wrongfully reported bulldozer as 4 core. You can literally run an older version of windows and see 8 cores reported. Likewise run a newer version and it says 4.... So the whole lawsuit was based on microsoft, who wasnt even part of the lawsuit 🤦
I had a 9590 with the original kraken x60 and it was a monster in gaming. Never complained about lacking frames.
@@goblinphreak2132 I don't think you know what settling a lawsuit means.
Fx 8350 was nice, not that fast but man my other machine later on with i5 3570 stuttered like mad while gaming and having anything else open on my other monitor.
Same with r7 1700, not that fast but my other i5 9600k stuttered like mad with youtube etc. open while gaming.
@@goblinphreak2132
My first PC was a Cyrix 686-166+ 👵🏻
Then I switched to AMD up to the Pentium D era
Then a few Intels
Then back to AMD for my most recent.
@@wta1518. I am also unsure if you know why companies often settle lawsuits… not taking sides.
And we have the best CEO in the world to thank. Lisa Su was amazing at turning it around.
No idea if Jim is going to read this but I would love his take on weather or not he thinks that Thuban should have been revamped instead of making Bulldozer.
Considering Bulldozer kind of almost killed them... idk maybe you could argue the PROCESS of making Bulldozer was helpful later, there could easily be something iterative that I'm not considering, but with hindsight I think it's not hard to say anything would have been preferred over Bulldozer.
He mentioned in a different interview that he thinks architectures should be build from scratch every 3-5 years rather than 10.So most likely he would have suggested chiplets in 2008-2010 still (remember core 2 quad came out in 2006)
My 50 cents to this: if AMD didn't make Bulldozer, they would not have been forced to build a CPU design from the scratch, that is now known as Zen.
So if Thuban was revamped yet another time, we wouldn't have Zen by now and AMD maybe struggling to advance, just like Intel is.
Thuban aka K10 still was based on K8 aka Athlon64 and afair the Phenom 1 had some serious problems, which the Phenom II only adressed and barely made improvements.
Anyhow: don't look back and ask questions for the past, as they can't tell anything new...
@@novocainDaimon I hadn't considered that angle. It's a good point.
My point was that Phenom/Thuban had good IPC. If AMD could have squeezed out 10% with a redesign, and 4000+ with a smaller node it would have been competitive. And adding on 2 more cores with node maturity would have resulted in a better chip overall.
Overclocked Thuban matched Bulldozer in the benchmarks.
probably 2012 since that when he joined amd
AMD + Linux == Perfection
-> True
and Intel windows still sucks. and its not intel's fault but they suck ass a lot too.
@@bionicseaserpent anything to do with windows is bound to be shit. if linux was solid for gaming, oh boy i would switch instantly
@@bal7ha2ar but it is, I can play all my games on my steam library :P
@bal7ha2ar I'm running Garuda's dragon linux. I'm getting great performance in games. I hit 120fps in CS Source last night with an average of 90.
Love this dude. Not that he's at all the same, but I get a bit of John Carmack vibes from him.
Jim Keller is a legend.
Linus hittin' him hard, while being super humble! Need answers Jim!!
My 7900XTX is my first AMD card ever and I love it. I’ve been buying NVIDIA since 2006.
I got the 7900xt and it's way more than enough for my use case. First amd card in decades (they were ATI back then) and could not be happier.
I think on management theory - if someone can walk in and nobody knows what their job is, your business is average.
Keller is a guy you can't help but like and on top of that he a freakin genius technical architect and leader. He knows how to lead smart people.
waiting for my parts to be delivered, 7900gre nitro+ ryzen 5 7600 ... upgrading from a 1070ti and 5 3600
i remember my first pc was a fx6300. bought it bc it was cheap and i was very uneducated at the time and thought "overclock to 4ghz with 6 cores? wow!". ryzen has been an insane turnaround for them
Should have listened to me back on TomsHardware forums man. I'm still rocking the i3-4130 on my media rig at an ice-cold 35 degrees Celsius.
Jim Keller reminds me of people like Jay Miner (designed a lot of the chips that were used in the Amiga), a maverick who looks at things holistically and comes up with solutions nobody else thought of.
This dude is dripping knowledge. If I have learned one thing from university it's that if you have the opportunity to
go to lunch break with one of those guys you should take it. The unique perspective some people offer really unlocks your mind
"something that blows my mind is: a product will arrive, and us monkeys, who basically are just like 'I dunno, oo oo oo run game' you know, run frames per second, are going 'hey guys, you got the pricing way wrong'"
Honestly, whoever sets the pricing at AMD is an idiot.
How the hell did they think that the RX 7900 XT would sell at $900 when the RX 7900 XTX was nearly 20% faster at $1000? Any sane person would have set the MSRP of the 7900 XT at $800, because it's obvious that it would fall to that price almost immediately anyway.
It's not just that either. Most Ryzen CPUs fall way below their MSRP almost immediately. AMD could get much better reviews without losing a significant amount of their profit margins by setting the MSRP lower.
As a random example, the Ryzen 5 7600X was horribly overpriced for a 6-core CPU on its launch at $300, but it was selling at $200 2 months later, which was a great deal, and it's still selling for that price a whole year after that. If you're going to sell most of them for $200 anyway, why not set it to that price at launch and get rave reviews?
Oh this is a fun one.
It’s actually fully expected and intention that most people will gravitate to the 7900XTX.
You see, the “demand” which scales linearly with performance with additional boosts towards the lower end where most people want to buy.
But you also forget the “supply” portion of this pricing equation.
The 7900XT and 7900XTX are the exact same piece of silicon and that GCD is around 300mm2 which yields quite well.
And that means that most Navi31 dies manufactured are XTX capable whereas only some are XT capable and some just broken.
When you don’t have a good supply of XT, you need to price it higher so that demand for that product matches its supply.
$100 discount actually makes sense for a 300mm2 cut-down GPU, it’s just that chiplets makes the entire math wonky. A monolithic part has worse yields and that means more supply available for cut down parts.
It’s also why the 7800XT is priced much more normal. It’s just the full Navi32 die, and the 7700XT looks like poor value.
You obviously need to do a mixture of both. Price your products to meet the consumer demand profile, but then shift pricing around to meet your available supply profile.
And then finally optimize the “margin vs volume” which balances making less on each product to sell more products, but then competing with the rest of AMD for wafer allocation as other markets often have much better margins than consumer dGPU.
Yea it’s a bit of a complex mess, but there is some logic in the pricing.
@@bayanzabihiyan7465 This was an interesting read, thankyou
@@bayanzabihiyan7465 The problem is that these are just speculated claims, because other "sources" or people leaking info, claim the people setting the prices thought genuinely those XT models would sell, and it is well known there was a pretty big supply of cut down N31 dies for the XT.
On my hand, im not affirming or denying anything, but amd has a track record of pretty "interesting" msrp choices, regardless if they make sense or not.
@@bayanzabihiyan7465This will probably change a lot once multi chiplet GPUs start being made. It's gonna be a lot easier to scale from low to high end just by tweaking the amount of chiplets per GPU. This might be a reason why the rDNA4 leaks look so good right now with the price/performance ratio.
Aside from the odd Intel rig that ends up in my possession from time to time, I've had now... 6 different AMD cpu's over the years, and 4 gpu's. Maybe 5, not sure on one of them from a long time ago. And in regards to Jim's comment about how the attitude of the company was 'Well, last attempt sucked, so this one with Zen will probably too'.
I totally understand why. All during the time that I was using the Bulldozer and Excavator architectures, people were complaining and dunking on the FX series and the Apu lineup left and right all day and night long. That takes a toll, even if the cpu's were not actually that bad. Based on my own experience and observations, many people weren't following the guidelines properly around stuff like ram selection; so they were kneecapping themselves from the get go. I figured it out right away when my cpu upgrade didn't seem like one at first, because some of the same problems persisted, along with new ones. Swapped the ram for faster, and voila; problems all gone. Mostly. Needed a new GPU at the time too apparently, but that didn't become more apparent until the other problems were subsided.
Anyways. I still have that FX-8350 Black Edition, and the 290x that I put with it. But the motherboard I think went kaput. MSI...
Surprised you didn't sell that 290X during the Bitcoin craze. At the time, miners would buy up entire warehouses of 280X and 290Xs because they were more efficient miners than Nvidia cards.
That's how you deal with interviews, be upfront. Noice.
This is what a true engineer shoul be.
Linus interviews The great Deku tree! 😯
The comment about the AI model versus the 5 million lines of C was enlightening
Love the part he said “I don’t know” which really emphasizes how hard it is to backtrack what’s going on with a decade old manually written programs vs the AI model.
Had many AMD and s sold many in my time at predominantly Intel stores , one with a big p4 decal
Owned a am386sx, k62, athlon and Duron 462 chips, have a permanent athlon 1400 die shape burned in my index finger from 2002ish,
Ryzen 4100 system now, though there were core 2 and 4th gen Intel in the middle there
Linus is a bad interviewer, Jim is bad to interview, but the interview came out excellent. Magic.
Jim was asking the questions and Jim was answering them.
In English grammar, 2 negative makes a positive.
This man is a good reason to like AMD. We build things for the general people. Usable for all not just top end clients.
On the topic of some people working on Zen not believing it, to be fair the first two generation of Zen still lags behind the Core i of the same year. Only when AMD switch to TSMC that they finally overtake Intel
Man I really want to know how much of a custom APU market profit AMD as company. We know at this point on consoles market they have contracts with 3 vendors (Sony, Microsoft & Valve) which 2 of them are a market giant.
How does consoles market help them to grow. Or the ROI were just too small compare to what they deliver on both PC and server space.
I do wonder if AMD can maintain momentum. They are still killing it in the cpu market, but they have made some very notable missteps in the gpu space, especially considering their outright refusal to implement AI hardware that has left FSR a travesty of an upscaler, where even Intel's newcomer solution seems a better option.
cant implement ai hardware when the biggest advantage of fsr is that its open source + works on every card. also fsr is far from a bad upscaler. sure its not on par with dlss but its quite good in my opinion
@@bal7ha2ar fsr 2.1, 2.2 and 3 are all great. RDNA 3 has ai cores fyi. Not that i care about ai at all, but they are in there.
@@thefilmdirector1 As Jim said devs like to work on stuff. So AI cores are in RDNA3 but aren't used anywhere for enemy AI or upscaling. They should've done the same thing Intel did with Xess, use AI cores for themselves to accelerate FSR and other's will get regular version.
@@bal7ha2ar the problem is that it can go so far before it also bites them in the ass, they have the much smaller marketshare, and older gpu's without dlss support last so long or are already quite behind besides the 1080ti, because gpu's from 2019 get dlss support up to 3.7 besides frame generation.
It's an advantage until those gpu's start to face out, and now that dlss compatible gpu's are the leading gpus in market share, what are people going to chose?
fsr is barely going to get an update after more than a year has passed, and it still more than likely to be worse than XeSS, just not as bad as before, but once you see image quality comparisons, fsr does look pretty rough compared to it's competitors, add their 1k gpu's also use this tech, so people are going to orbit the 1k gpu that has dlss+fsr+xess support than the one with fsr+xess only.
@@NameUserOf isnt that what they are doing with frame gen?
So cool, I love this platform. No BS.
This proves that the people behind the company can be just as important as a driver of success as the architecht. He wasn't there to introduce great ideas to AMD, but promote the great ideas they already have on their engineering team as well as to calm the skeptics and pessimists in order for the project to go through. While he changed AMD, he could not change Intel and had to resign. I think he resigned because they didn't want to outsource production, but ended up doing it anyway in some of their processors.
Legend
Bro... can Jim Keller fix AMD's GPUs?
Next gen is make or break for them but 7900 GRE gives me hope for the future
my question would have been "are you prepared to be the winners?" cause i bet there are people like me who were "intel forever" til the current issues and recent amd success and are thinking about zen5 to be their next upgrade, I'm afraid amd is not ready to produce for the huge masses and might be hard to come by with potential scalping going on at launch and beyond. i hope they can scale the company quickly cause they still seem to have an underdog mentality.
Hey 👋
Methinks that not enough LTT viewers understand that they need to listen to Jim Keller just like we used to listen to Seymour Cray or Gene Amdahl or Jon von Neumann or other great lights who really understood the computing industry better than anyone else ... Perhaps this video could be promoted so we get to 500k viewers pretty quickly?
It's true, x86 was really the original open-source architecture, before open-source was a thing. Intel did the original architecture upto the 32-bit version, and the 64-bit version was done by AMD. It's obviously not as open-source now, it's a duopoly, and Intel and AMD seem to have made up with each other now. That's why architectures like RISC-V have a better chance of being the next powerhouse architecture, it's truly open-source.
It's not that hard. It's super easy, barely an inconvenience.
This is actually an amazing mentality to have going into uncharted territory
"It's not as difficult as I think it is, I just have to prepare adequately"
I must confess that a 6800xt / 5800x3D is impressive. I also love the fact it's the only way to balance competitiveness in the market as Nvidia's monopoly would most certainly screw us even harder as Apple does. We don't have to go to economics to learn this shit. We gotta support and give its flowers to AMD.
7000 series GPU's have been plagued with driver timeouts in DX12 games for months and months with little or no acknowledgement. You had to limit your fps and boost clock so the GPU's don't hit 90-100% utilization, effectively neutering the performance you paid for. Driver 24.4.1 *seems* to have finally resolved this. At least in my experience, playing helldiver 2. Still, it has really hurt my opinion of AMD. This took nearly a year. I probably won't be buying another AMD GPU again. But I'll wait and see how next gen compares to competition
Linus is a terribly bad interviwer.
Almost as bad as you are as a speller. 😁
Ah yes Linus the ego-centrical know it and do it all.
and they could be a lot better if they stop being complacent at 2nd place!
still two generations behind nvidia and the distance will only increase from there
alot of people dont understand that Intel / AMD / Nvidia do not compete like the fanboys out here, they make products to make money and not to being the best or the worst or the cheapest.
But i am suprised that AMD is pricing ther CPU's very fair nowdays even if they are Superior to Intel.
They no superior to Intel. And they always cost a lot more than Intel, not good pricing. And they price really doesn't worth it. They only can compete with gaming, in multitasking and office work and blender they suck hard to Intel, that's a fact. Also in gaming, 78003d as laughable performance in starfield compare to Intel also in dragon digma 2 and in horizon forbidden west. Intel i9 13 and 14 generation are like 78003d if not better. Intel already has the best igpu, yes yes, arc igpu destroy AMD 780m.
Intel has best officieny now with core series. In next two generation it will have 2nm node and 1.8nm node, the next generation already will be in this year. It has a lot better node than AMD, TSMC will get 2nm node only in 2026😂 lol! Intel will beat it's competitors and the stocks of Intel raise very big.
@@789uio6y Bro, what are you even saying :D The pricing is right, they cost more than Intel in my country, however, they still sell more, so like, how can the pricing be wrong?
Mostly because their initial pricing was horrible, and depending on the price range, they don't really have a competitor.
zen4 pricing on release was a bad joke besides the 7950X, it took a month of people sucking them off for intel to release raptor lake and offer nearly twice the multi threading performance, better single core, for the same price tag as their amd equivalents, which in hand, made amd cut down their fomo pricing.
13600K was beating the 7700X by a mile, while costing 20usd more than the 7600X, 13700K was even with the 7900X and faster in single core, while having the same msrp as the 7700X, and the 13900K was 100usd cheaper than the 7950X, and similar story, better ipc, multithreading just slightly faster, mostly app dependant.
They simply can't suddenly hike their prices up again, as good as the 7800X3D is for gaming, it's still is an 8 core, which will get beaten by intels i7 from 12th gen in multi core, let alone the newer ones.
They are better than Intel and use less power so an air cooler is no issue. If only their GPUs could compete against RTX.
The problem is that Intel hit a roadblock that took 4 years to overcome. Nvidia never has had that problem. Even then, AMD is still doing better against them than they were in the past.
rx6000 vs RTX 3000 the AMD GPU's was better.
Used less power and now deliver better performance, why so many people still use Rx6700xt and 6800xt and 6900/6950xt and on the other hand less people use RTX 3070ti / 3080 / 3090 where all the Nvidia people gone ?
@@BenoHourglass intel hit the Problem called Greed. Ther Products was so overpriced and are still nowdays and all they do is increasing Power usage with a very old Architecture.
Intel had basicly no competition when they released I core 2nd gen then they went to 3 and 4th gen still no competition and then 5th and 6th gen still no competition and they charged for 5% more performance with same 4c 8t 400-600$ per chip.
They stoped to inovate very early meanwhile AMD tested and tryed new things not only in the CPU segment, they did that with GPU's too, the first HBM2 memory tested on AMD cards and the smallest GPU back then with a lot of power was from AMD.
Then AMD hit the Rx 5000 series and they had a road map for that and with Rx6000 they delivered a very good product and with rx7000 they again delivered a good product.
meanwhile Nvidia overpriced ther RTX 2000 cards then 3000 cards (and we all know how the cards aged) and then with the 4000 cards and the low Power consume cards deliver bad but the high consume cards consume better then the 3000 series but still alot.
In a nutshell, Intel overly used 14nm++++ save the day for AMD to play catchup in which eventually making them leading the competition. Intel still got no answer to AMD workstation and server level CPU at this point.
Lisa Destroyed Radeon division !
Doesn’t exist and clean aren’t mutually exclusive but is misleading
one thing that bring down AMD ...is using flaw HT/SMT tech from early 2000's that IBM introduce first before intel HT and AMD half ass working CMT that they had intel x86 license to use SMT as well but AMD chose their owned CMT and believe its better than SMT until it was proven wrong by benchmarks and many buldozer releases that take 3 releases to cancel entire CMT and eat their pride and use intel SMT tech on their x86 cores then amd have complete same tech from intel HT when intel opensource to its all x86 license. Least intel cares for AMD and sad to see AMD keep falling apart and not want company filed bankruptcy for their arrogance mistake to prove they are superior than intel SMT but in reality INTEL kept this tech a secret of flaws that even intel says that tech is not great in long run when dat bits are only good in small chucks vs ARM cpu's does big chunks of bits due to lack of SMT...and extra cores do make huge difference in big data threads that no longer need to wait when it has entire core access for extra cache and data bits from memory sub system
4 mins in Linus has already say degrading comments to the guest.
Thank you AMD for open source drivers on Linux! I only buy AMD!
First!
Amd ftw f*** nvidia 😂
Amd is nothing without PlayStation
and xbox ? they build for bot of them, if you dont understand then dont talk, AMD is the leading force in APU segment of course if someone can build a console then it is AMD.
But only with the Ps4/xbox one / Switch Era AMD got alot of APU's sold but you really think they made alot of money out of that ? not really.
Hardware is one thing, while AMD blocks BIOS updates for 300 chipsets, doesn't support APU drivers, drops Vega while selling Vega laptops, hides rebar in laptop BIOS, cripples feature support in all last gen video cards, latest example is HAGS, which got one driver for RDNA, now only RDNA3 because frame gen needs it, while not supporting RDNA2, so Nvidia users have better AMD framegen than AMD native hardware. Also rumors of AM5+, so AM5 users no upgrade path. So good job for performance, but the long term support is absolute garbage if not outright crippled planned obsolescence, and nobody calls out the drivers for deliberate crippling only bugs. Dude, proper support is more important.
Do your research first before ranting. Also what are you saying about long term support, AM4 Literally lasted 7 years .
These companies all suck my man... It's about deception and making money. They want you to suffer.
AM5+ was from the patchnotes of some software according to GamersNexus, and what it meant was supporting AM5 and beyond, not a new platform named AM5+.
My X370 hero works with my 5900x don't know what you're talking about
Well, that sure was an incomprehensible rant.
Video 17 Linus please build me a free PC