#Antikythera
Vložit
- čas přidán 20. 05. 2017
- Antikythera Fragment #2 - #AncientToolTechnology - The Original Dividing Plate?
One thing about this machine that is truly surprising, is just how small the teeth are.
There's a well established theory as to how the tooth divisions were marked out, but employing that process to mark out multiple wheels has forced me to question whether it can reasonably be applied to the Antikythera Mechanism.
So in this video I propose an alternative process of wheel division, using only the non precision tools of the period.
More detail on the specifics of 223 teeth on B1 below...
If you would like to help support the creation of these videos, then head on over to the Clickspring Patreon page: / clickspring
________________________________________________________
A very special thank you to Patrons:
Sinking Valley Woodworks (www.sinkingvalleywoodworks.com)
Sam Towne
Glenn Trewitt
Christopher Warnock
Mike Manfrin
Dave Seff
Matteo Neville
Olof Haggren
Stassinopoulos Thomas
Florian Ragwitz
Larry Pardi
Samuel Irons
Tim Bray
Sean Kuyper
________________________________________________________
Want to know more about Ancient Greece? Then be sure to check out the Ancient Greece Declassified podcast: www.greecepodcast.com
________________________________________________________
You can also help me make these videos by purchasing via the following Amazon Affiliate links:
Cameras used in this video:
Panasonic GH5 - amzn.to/2rEzhh2
Panasonic X920 - amzn.to/2wzxxdT
Tools & Shop Products:
"Solidworks 2013 Bible": amzn.to/2FObS1D
Dykem 80300 Steel Blue Layout Fluid, Brush-in-Cap (4oz): amzn.to/2HGPaJJ
Optivisor Headband Magnifier: amzn.to/2HFg1FU
Hegner Scroll Saw: amzn.to/2IhteVW
Super Pike Saw Blades Size 4/0 pkg of 144: amzn.to/2IO6aPw
________________________________________________________
The proposition regarding why B1 has 223 teeth in detail:
The teeth of the main drive wheel B1 are accepted to sit outside the calculating train, and so serve the purpose of simply permitting convenient movement of that wheel, via the input crown wheel A1. In that sense any practical tooth number would have sufficed, and by practical I mean any tooth count that would provide a mechanically sound, robust tooth size.
B1 has an approximate outside diameter of 132mm.
200 teeth gives a tooth module of approximately 0.66 - a very chunky and robust tooth, with apex tip to tip of 2.1mm. A very strong tooth, able to withstand the input torque very well. Although it must be said approaching the point of being too coarse from the perspective of fine mechanism control.
280 teeth gives a module of approximately 0.47 - a reasonably delicate tooth form, 1.49mm between tooth tips, but consistent with almost all other wheels found in the device, and so still a reasonable candidate. Perfect for very fine control of the mechanism, but perhaps approaching the size where deformation of the tooth could occur with exuberant input torque from the user.
So assuming no change to the outside diameter of the wheel, any tooth count (and therefore module) in between this range of 200 to 280 would provide a tooth form that is suitable to perform the role of robustly generating movement of B1.
Latest research has the actual number of teeth for B1 at either 223 or 224. However it is highly likely that the number is in fact 223.
If this is the case, then the choice of 223 is remarkable.
Because if we consider all options within the range of approximately 200 to 280 teeth as valid candidates, then there had to be a very good reason to choose that more difficult division candidate over the more obvious options immediately adjacent. ie Why not select 224? 222? 240? etc
My proposition is that 223 was selected out of simple manufacturing convenience. And that the choice strongly indicates the existence of an ancient division method very different to the current theory. ie One that leverages existing counts to propagate them to multiple wheels.
E3 is known with to have 223 teeth to perform its eclipse prediction role on the Saros dial, so that division number was already required to be present on the division tool.
Knowing that any robust tooth would suffice for B1, The Maker would have been able to directly observe that the count of 223, fits nicely into the range of convenient and robust tooth sizes for the role to be performed by B1. It would have been clear that there was no need to perform yet another large division, when a suitable candidate was already present on the tool.
And so the otherwise surprising tooth count of 223 was selected for B1.
Antikythera Fragment #2 - Ancient Tool Technology - The Original Dividing Plate? - Jak na to + styl
One thing about this machine that is truly surprising, is just how small the teeth are.
There's a well established theory as to how the tooth divisions were marked out, but employing that process to mark out multiple wheels has forced me to question whether it can reasonably be applied to the Antikythera Mechanism.
So in this video I propose an alternative process of wheel division, using only the non precision tools of the period.
Please enjoy!
How do you not get overwhelmed by knowing that you got to cut so many gears by hand? Or are you going to use the lathe for the rest?
I've been wondering about this problem ever since watching your Antikythera series, blessed closure! Thank you!
I would think that it would be absolutely amazing if you have academia reconsidering their current theories as a result of your build. I know that others have endeavored to rebuild this machine, but your approach shows that you're putting a great deal of thought into the practicality of the creation. Keep up the good work, the creation of the device and the history you're actively engaging in is inspiring.
well when you consider the forfathers of math and geometry were Greeks and we know they had a very deep understanding of geometry, and could consistently mark out the complex angles with just compasses and over lapping circles of varied sizes. and for the makers of the device to already have the skills and knowledge to produce it then it would be insane to think they didnt have their own device for dividing gears used in producing other devices that lead them to making the antikythera mechanism, the people involved must have been early clock makers in order to develop the skills and technology used in its creation. One does not simply wake one day and build something out of thin air without the knowledge, resources and infrastructure needed to make it. so i think you are well justified in your assumptions of the tools they may have used
Quick question....did the ancient greek have files? what did they use instead?
I'm starting to get the feeling you might actually finish this thing! ;)
excellent as always, and I think you're spot on with what you propose -- if it were me, after having laid out and cut the first small gear, I know I'd be looking for alternatives and fast!
Definitely! Cheers mate :)
_'This Old Antikythera',_ I'd watch that series 😀
Work on your bike or something..
I am a master machinist and I will tell you few people have earned my respect like you have - especially in the way you work with simple tools to achieve such results. And Thank for your passion!!!
Thanks very much for the kind words Craig, much appreciated :)
I think the dividing plate is a likely tool for someone to come up with in that time period. Who ever built the mechanism did this type of work daily and not as a one of for someone who asked for it. Working daily for years in any trade will inspire a craftsman to make tools to make his work easier,the same way it has forced you to consider alternative ways to approach a problem. Awesome work,I enjoy this series very much
A perfect example that the beauty in engineering isn't just in the aesthetics, you really do have a gift and your videos are beautifully crafted too.
My sunday morning is realy starting out great , watching a clickspring video.
I love that you took the time to make a dedicated straight-edge for the markings. Shows your magnificent attention to detail.
Ignaz Kevenaar agreed, and the practicality of marking out the ring numbers made it really satisfying
Yea, that section was soothing to my OCD.
Yeas. And even his tools are beautiful. Heck, the tools he uses to make tools are beautiful.
Actuually, during the ancient times in Greece there were magnifying lenses made from naturally occurring quartz crystal. They would first chip away the crystal to the approximate shape of the lens and then rub it against larger stones to bring it to the final shape. I have seen such lenses in many museums in Greece and many of them are still in working condition and generally pretty clear.
Sounds expensive
That's true but it doesn't account for the benefits of jigging nor does it account for the need for precision tools.
It's crazy how much we already had figured out, even if crudely
In the Idaean cave in the 80s two crystal lenses were discovered and contextualised to be from the time of the Antikythera mechanism, other bronze Age lenses from the palace of Knossos in Crete dated from 1400 B.C have been discovered. Sure, lenses would have been time consuming, or potentially unnecessary instruments to produce for use by the craftsman, but inferring the Antikythera mechanism had great significance to those who commissioned/used the machine, it may be reasonable to assume the maker had such technologies at their disposal. Especially considering the craftsman could potentially have had access to such lenses as the island of Antikythera neighbours Crete. Who knows.
Great video as always.
@ Margaret.Thatcher
I thought you had experience with iron not brass
I'm entirely convinced by your argument. We like to apply our modern standard to the artisans of the past, and then it becomes easier to dismiss incredibly complex procedural advancements as implausible.
Simply put, clever people will always find ways around the technological limitations of the day. Naturally, we are biased to think of now as "better," or more "advanced," simply because we're here. Tomorrow, we'll have yet another new advancement, and it may reduce another piece of tedium, but it will only be an improvement to our method- and not to us.
We didn't always have a button for π. Archimedes used the method of exhaustion. It worked.
Have you considered making an actual paper or essay about this? Pretty sure insights like those in this video would get published, especially from such a novel angle.
CZcams videos might very well be the best medium for this type of thing. It might be nice for an archaeological journal to link here.
Paul Murray it would be fascinating to hear someone who is an expert on ancient Greece and their technologies weighing in on matters like this
I'm with Paul. If only scientific journals were 1/10 this clear and concise college papers would be a lot easier.
If my optics or electromagnetism classes were as clear as this, I'd have a 4.0
This videos contribution to the greater body of knowledge on the topic is easily the framework from which an academic thesis could be made.
i didn't read all 740+ comments so somebody else may have said this but a huge benefit this would present is the ability of the "master" designer to offload repetitive tasks to apprentices. suddenly you go from having to do almost 40 gears yourself to making sure the apprentice can accurately use a jig you made and follow instructions, allowing you to focus on tasks which require your skill and knowledge while simply checking the gears for fit and finish later.
one has to wonder why youtube doesn't recommend videos like this instead of the dumb "viral" crap hogging all the views.
This is a brilliant channel, and i love every video that has been put on it.
I'm in hospital recovering from two surgeries over the past days and have been binge-watching your clock-making series since. And just as I finished it a new video popped up :)
Wonderful timing Chris and thanks for making my stay so much more bareable :) You're one hell of an artist!
Mario Good luck with the recovery bro
Thanks so much mate!! Really appreciate it
Having spent three weeks in hospital after a major spinal op, the first totally confined to bed (including a bout of peritonitis ...) I can well imagine the tedium you went through ... sadly, this was pre-internet ... so I slowly was going mad ...
Hope you have fully recovered, and back home, with no serious complications ...
Hey man, how did those surgeries go? Hope you're alright 1 year after them :)
Well, that jig is just genius. I always marvel at how people came up with such things and here I am so proud of myself just figuring out that if something's too small to see with the naked eye, you just scale it up and work from there.
Cris, I love this series! It's one thing to wander through a museum and dream how these things or done, or have a docent/professor explain it, but your videos are a delightful alternative.
Terrific to have you watching John :)
you are an extremely clever dude...I love your work/videos... there is something about watching you work I find soo therapeutic and I'm always exited when you release a new video... I've literally watched all of your vids
II MODERN II Yes, this guy seriously makes me rethink my own perceived intelligence! Very therapeutic indeed!
II MODERN II same 😀
I just feel like crying... this guy is a giant...
this is simply incredible, the effort you put into your projects. I sometimes wonder whether the internet is more education or distraction. your videos make me forget all the distracting stupid bs out there and make me really really glad to live right now and to have access to such incredible content.
there are no words to express my gratefulness to you! thank you!
Terrific to have your support mate :)
I was wondering what the flat surface on the center pin in the diving table was for, seeing that ruler lay flat against it was surprisingly satisfying.
That is one beautiful gear you made.
Martin Tandrup I wonder how he machined it to the exact centre.
Define (quantify) "exact"...
Martin Tandrup: So that the length of the flat equals the diameter of the rod.
One easy way, measure the diameter with calipers (or micrometer), remove material until the remaining piece is 1/2 that, as also measured with calipers. I suspect Clickspring has a set of calipers accurate to 1/10,000th of an inch.
But that would be trial and error and too easy.
Clickspring is my favorite on CZcams. I tell as many people about this channel as I can; and I love explaining this mechanism to people as well. The history and wonder is great! As well as the craftsmanship! ❤❤
As if recreating the mechanism alone isn't enough, every step you are trying to recreate the PROCESS. I am beyond impressed. Thank you for sharing this.
I can't imagine the amount of work off camera that this thing takes. Nice work!
wonderful, simple and very logical approach. Ancient Greeks also had Heron's Pantograph, a device that used large scale templates to accurately copy/reproduce smaller duplicates.
This is what happens when a master tool maker makes a tool to make a tool to make a tool etc.
Interesting speculation. I think the greeks could have started with their dividers and gone up to dividing plates. There is another way to divide. Wrap a strip of paper around a cylinder and cut it so it is an exact fit. Now divide your strip into N equal intervals. This is done by projecting another strip with the divisions onto our original strip. Wrap the strip back on the cylinder and transfer the marks. This was a method taught in colleges when there was no CAD at all. It is more accurate and much faster than the walking divider method. Who knows. Maybe they made dividing plates by the strip method and then used plates to mark as you did.
Lovely project. I've been reading up on Antikythera and I think it is properly an orrery.
Chris...your workshop Nobility man! No question about it, never seen such tenacious and relentless pursuit of the perfect whatever it is I'm making right now!!!!!
Historians and archaeologists can speculate pretty accurately on how things were made, but it takes someone actually trying it to see why things would or wouldn't work. Really love the content, as a CNC machinist it can be easy to let computers and automation do the hard thinking, so it's always great to watch Chris work
My jaw is frequently open watching the genius of Chris and just pure elegance of his approach and thinking.
This is why archaeology, and all sciences, needs interdisciplinary influences. It's easy to get bogged down in theoretical details without realizing how difficult that theory is to execute in a real life setting. Keep up the great work Chris!
The sonar ping sound effect was perfect. Well done.
Chris, with this Antikythera project, not only do you provide us with great entertaining and educational content, as usual, and build from scratch a beautiful and unique project. By documenting the building process of such a relevant artefact, with so much detail and in publicly available audiovisual media, you're also making a great contribution to the study of history and, by extension, to the knowledge of mankind. I hope you're aware of that.
Funny. Before you started the large jig, I said to myself, "Why doesn't he scale up and work down from there?" I had a huge smile on my face when that's exactly what you did.
To say that I am impressed with your patience, your meticulous attention to detail, your ability to explain things and your skills would be a gross understatement.
This is the stuff that needs to be on TV, not the "reality" TV crap we have now. . . . .
Now Chris, you very quickly glossed over the making of your straight edge, ESPECIALLY how neatly registered the numerals were. All of us would love to see that jig, even if it's just a manufactured one. Thanks !
Subdividing the circumference into 6 equal parts is easy as the dividers just need to be set to the radius of the circle. I'd try to base as many of the subdivisions on that fact as possible. Even number subdivisions can also be made by drawing a line between two points and creating a perpendicular bisector which will bisect the arc perfectly at the halfway mark.
my jaw is on the floor, your jig was just awesome.
You produce some of the most interesting videos I have ever seen. The quality of your work, attention to detail, and methods used truly boggle the mind. Also the production quality of your videos are second to none. My hats off to you sir, and thank you for making these videos.
Your craftsmanship is amazing
The work of a genius. Both the original builder and the people who worked out how it was done.
Really really fantastic quality of work in this video, and the others from this channel.
The practical act of attempting to build this mechanism will surely throw up many more discoveries, and i feel is an important bit of research which i hope historians are incorporating into their view of how these ancient artefacts were made.
Superb workmanship, production values and intelligence went into this , thank you very much, extremely enjoyable and informative.
Thank you very much Paul, terrific to have you watching :)
What impresses me even more than your already very impressive skills, is your patience. I don't think i can even begin to fathom the amount of patience one would need to do what you do, and as is with your skills, i also lack the patience to do anything like this which is why your videos are so interesting, they allow me to share the experience without sacrificing the countless hours to do it. Thank you for sharing this with us.
I tell every friend I got about your channel brother. There's nothing quite like it on CZcams and I can't tell you how awesome these videos are! Everything is pleased so well it is such a delight to behold. Thanks again man keep up the great work!!
Your creativity in solving the issues that come up in a build like this is very impressive. Great work. I cant wait to see the completed unit.
set aside the fact that the content is highly original, this channel also might be the highest quality production on CZcams
Terrific to have you watching :)
And the day is 1000x better. Keep going man!
I could watch this channel all day
Excellent theory to bygone days engineering problem solving. A history class and an engineering master class in one channel. Very interesting content.
How could anyone dislike this beautiful video?
You sir. Are the most patient and skilled Aussie I have ever seen. Keep up the good work.
From a heavy plate welder. I really enjoy watching this👍👍
Terrific to have you watching Rhys :)
What I love about this video is that it's just as applicable now as 2000 years ago. I'm an amateur machinist and poor student to boot, I can't afford equipment like a dividing head, but with a method like this anyone can do accurate dividing without costly gear
I love the machinist enthusiast community. From AvE to ToT to Abom to this friggin genius of an Australian. Everyone is stoked. I'm willing to bet, I'm not the only one here whose never even seen a lathe in person, but is obsessed with em.
Your ability to solve these problems is mind blowing.
This is amazing and I cannot get enough of these complex tasks completed with simple tools.
Every one of your videos are breathtakingly brilliant. Your thinking and execution is elegant, clear, clean and insightful. If you aren't offered an honorary PhD for this work, even just the antikythera related stuff then there is no Justice.
Thank you Michael :)
Sunday morning and another video. Great!
Man. You are just, amazing. My brain can't even comprehend that fine of a level of detail. Excellent excellent work! I like that your fastidiousness also shows in your video editing.. it really makes your work "pop"! Cheers
As this continues to build, I'm left in awe of the ancients workings. You have opened many eyes into this project which has again left me in awe of your work. Brilliant 👍🏼😊
Man, I am never anything less than captivated and impressed when I watch one of your videos. Even having no idea what machine you are talking about just watching you meticulously reproduce ancient technology and the precision you can achieve and how steady your surgeon like hands are at making those parts by hand is nothing short of mind blowing. I have trouble drawing a straight line even using a ruler so watching someone with as much talent is just awe inspiring. Thanks for also taking the time to film and produce CZcams videos showing us and possibly teaching us a thing or two.
Looks promising. Would be interesting to see the final build.
This is next level. Astonishing.
This series is riveting. An absolute gem.
This is an incredible undertaking and I admire not only your ability and as far as I'm concerned genius but your guts to even tackle this project. I was a machinist for quite awhile and had some very complex parts to make but I would have told my boss that he should give this project to some one else. ha ha
Can't wait to see the rest of this build.
Peter
Terrific to have you watching Peter :)
I'm in awe everytime I watch one of your videos
Ancient greeks had same eyesight as us, perhaps even poorer, but they were just as smart. They definitely used a jig.
Look up the video about the Parthenon build built and how they discovered a clever trick used by the ancient greeks to taper their columns (a visual refinement) by using a simple measuring tool. Absolutely amazing.
You need to be a public educator. This project is worth a PhD, no question.
you know Chris, there are times i look at your channel hoping to see the latest video and sometimes I'm ashamed to say I'm frustrated there isn't one and wonder why, then suddenly there is a new video and i watch it and think "now i know why its taken so long" when i see the level of detail and research you are putting into this build, as with the clock build I am enjoying the process of building the tools required to make the parts for the mechanism as much as the build itself! Thank you again Chris for letting us into your shop and watching a master of his craft at work!
OMG, not only are your creations a work of art, your tools and jigs are also works of art.
The clock maker would have loved to meet you.
I'm also sure that the greeks also had magnification lenses
WOW! mind blown..such level of detail,and skill.
Really enjoyed this video - the simplicity combined with the accuracy of the dividing jig really pushes this engineers buttons!
That was incredible, I always wanted to learn how to make gears, and this has just blown my mind.
we often took things for granted, we often overlook just how much effort it takes to make this one single video, amount of time invested in it was mindblowing.
You should set up a live stream of you working. You dont have talk if you dont want to but it would be amazing to watch you make every part in real time.
Incredible workmanship! I may be stating the obvious, but I do question the assumption that the original workers had only primitive tools available. The discovery of the mechanism was the first inkling we had of such precision in the ancient world. Surely there would have been many more instruments and tools in use, so that one accidentally preserved in a ship wreck is probably only one of many. When I worked in a machinist shop for a short period, the master machinist would spend hours studying a drawing, then spend as long a needed creating jigs (as you do) to make the final build of the target almost a non-event. Surely a civilization capable of the precision of the mechanism would be able to build tools with the same or greater precision. Probably not run by electric motors, but there are many other sources of power available from hand powered to water wheels.
In any case, thank you for a very enlightening and beautiful project.
I loved your build series of the clock, but what I love most about you and your channel is when you can't fully do a task, you proceed to build your own tools, such an inspiration.
I love the scientific approach of this video. I always wondered how they used to manufacture these gears, without modern technology
If theres one channel on YT that deserves to have millions of subscribers and views, its this man.
That's awesome how high precision can be achieved with basic technology. Thanks for sharing.
Fascinating. I think most people don't realize just how technologically advanced the Greeks and Romans were. To give you an example: they had a perfectly functioning steam engine (primitive design of course), they also could make high vacuum and batteries. The reasons why they weren't really applied are many, quite complex and much argued today.
that dividing plate and straight edge, is more beautiful that most things i've done! i just love your work!
Amazing as always, new Clickspring video is always exciting :)
Chris, you need to make a John Harrison wooden clock next, using the traditional method.
You Sir,are a Master Craftsman.
every video blows me away, your content is very captivating.
+Clickspring .. I have to admit that your videos are simply awe inspiring. Your videos has been a considerable factor for me to take a machinist apprenticeship instead of a straight up engineering degree. Best decision ever!
keep up the fantastic work you do!
I do not know when i am going to be so precise at work.
I love how not only do you step through every step of the process, but you also explain how they would have accomplished it. Also, telling us the uncertainties in the design are really cool! Keep up the great work!
Awesome. That jig is very ingenious. This video series show how far you can go with simple hand tools. Keep up the good work. I really look forward to watching your videos. Man, those ten minutes and forty nine seconds really went fast.
The mind boggles...
I am almost speechless.
Beautiful!!!
Brilliant work. I love the way you are breaking down the thought process of how this astonishing mechanism may have been made. I say "may" have been made but your reasoning seems very sound. Going to take a trip to the Patreon page. Looking forward to seeing the next video.
How proud your children will be of you :) Thank you again for your marvelous job and hard effort.
Amazing. I expect that this is only one of many ancient machines that were produced so one has to believe that the mind that conceived this device also developed a similar method for marking the wheels. Great work Chris. Always wonderful.
I wish there was a way to do just more than like this. I also wish I had the money to support you on the patron side of things. great video and please keep it up
Amazing video as always! Thank you for taking the time to make them!
Someone linked me this when talking about ancient soldering and I've been hooked on watching you build this since.
This video in particular really sticks out to me because I feel like this dividing plate jig is exactly what the maker of the Antikythera would've used. It just makes sense. The other tools and creations that we've been able to reproduce or were fortunate enough to be preserved allude that the Greeks were crazy smart, and a smart engineer will find the easiest solution to a problem because they're lazy. This is a motif that seems to span all manners of engineering. Look at any modern feat of engineering and it seems very complicated, but underneath it all is just very simple concepts.
The 223 teeth being used twice makes perfect sense if paired with the assumption that the maker used a jig that already had the divisions. The division plate itself just feels very appropriate for what we know about ancient Greek culture. Personally I think that's exactly what would've been used. Maybe not precisely the same as you made it or what future incarnations of it looked like, but definitely similar in principle. It's a simple and easy solution.
Click you continue to amaze.
Please upload more! Great as always
really enjoying your channel! Despite religiously watching about 15 channels yours is the first and only one I have decided to back on patreon! Thanks and keep up the great work!
As an architecture student obsessed with craft, my mind is blown with every new video of yours! Your dedication to your craft is immensely inspiring!
Always impressive work on your videos! Loved the geometric aspect of this one! Thanks for sharing!
i followed that explanation all the way to,"Gday Chris here,and welcome back to clickspring"after that i was completely lost,stilled love the show