Oxford counselor takes stand at James Crumbley's manslaughter trial
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- čas přidán 10. 03. 2024
- Shawn Hopkins, a counselor at Oxford High School who interacted with the shooter on the day of the shooting, takes the stand at the trial of the shooter's father.
I can't believe how many signs this kid was showing to all he could, yet no one caught on until it was too late.
!!!
He was begging for help and his parents not only ignored him but told him to get over it .😢😢😢😢😢
Not just the parents fault thow noone would think a child yet your very own would kill people especially other children
And in protecting his own ssa mr ejak is making it look like Mr crumbly shouldn’t have been alarmed
Yet their profession and study is in this field and yet it passed them. The school is responsible and there is a lot of people in there that missed the sign and need to be charged they have the degree in this field
What amazes me is that the shooter sat in the counseling office for an extended period of time knowing that the weapon was in his bag and he wasn't acting nervous or fidgety.
I agree with you but deeply troubled kids often don't react the way we think they "should".
Overworked and underpaid and understaffed it’s no wonder that this doesn’t happen more often prayers to the family
The parents should have taken him home when the counselor indicated that he was concerned. Period.
This is the parent's fault.They never got him real help.
He didn’t want the kid to go home he said he would rather he stayed there while his parents returned to work , CAUSE HE DID NOT WANT HIM TO BE ALONE AT HOME and staying in school was the decision the school chose had they of sent him home THIS WOULD OF NOT HAPPENED.
@@Queenme1978 I get that, but it was up to the parents to get Ethan the help that he needed. This is my point.The parents failed him.
@@Queenme1978
James was driving Door Dash deliveries as his ‘job,’ to earn. It’s completely optional to log in or not to accept ‘ops,’ available. Day, night whenever businesses offer pickups. The pay for the 4 jobs he accepted that day would have been less than 20.00, after fuel and tax. Insisting he return to work over prioritizing his son is preposterous. He’d already said (wtf?) at the drawings. in text/email with Jennifer before the school meeting🥹🧐. Bah-Bye James.🇺🇸⚖️🦉👍🏽
No, honey. The counselor is trained to recognize this stuff. The school is just as accountable. That's why the lawyers are setting up a trial against the school. I am happy the parents are in agreement.
Period.
A caseload of 400 students? Seriously? How effective can that possibly be?
Selecting classes and tracking graduation seems easy when it's by itself. But actually spending time with kids...
I would imagine that's pretty standard at most schools.
@@cubsfan1622000that doesn't make it right. In fact that's the problem, that's it's even remotely viewed as "standard".
@nuckinfuts7610 I know what you mean but it's even worse when you think about the lack of nurses and other staff in schools. Too bad enough people don't care about the services kids don't have and would rather speak about books in libraries.
@@Sochi314 for sure, and don't get me started on how we treat our teachers. America's whole educational system is no doubt sick. This is just one of the illness's many symptoms.
I gotta say, that student councillor was very well aware of how he expressed himself. He was not going along with any of the defense's games.
He’s personally under the gun in a civil case, as is the dean and others in the district.
Michigan has various levels of immunity for school personnel and there is ongoing litigation prior to the start of any civil trial.
He has a criminal defense attorney and has been well prepared for testimony. He’d be a fool otherwise.
I agree. He did a GREAT job as a witness & appropriately calling her out on her attempts to twist the facts and truth.
Female.attorney talks too fast. Sounds shrill. Hard to listen to.
agree. way to fast. i hope she listens to herself
She is quite annoying to me!! I agree about hard to listen to...egads!!😖😩
Literally gives me a migraine
It’s a amazing all the Oxford HS administration keep saying didn’t reach a level of concern
Well, the counselor clearly states that the drawing absolutely reached a significant level of concern. I mean, he called the parents to come in that same day, and asked the parents to get help for Ethan within 48-hours (and preferably that same day). Imagine the level of concern that they would have had if the parents had actually told them about the recent gun purchase.
Like Newtown....."under the radar hooey"....?
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩all over the place!!
As a parent, my kid my responsibility, BUT if my son is falling asleep in class I WOULD SURELY WANT TO KNOW!!
Yeah, that was so WRONG, not informing parents. That could have been happening for sooo many reasons, including medical. It's not like teacher indicated occasionally--she said all the time. How could the school not inform parents? Now these particular parents wouldn't do anything, but most would.
No one should be given a caseload of 400 anything. Let alone when those cases primarily focus on the wide variety, unlimited needs of children. It's absolutely impossible to be effective and almost designed to result in failure.
And for those who say "bu-bu-but, look at the amount of patients doctors take care of." There is NO comparing the level of resources, assistance, funding, etc., that is readily and easily available to doctors and their FOR PROFIT businesses, compared to those who work in the highschool public educational system. Literally no comparison. Regardless, after all that's said and done, the parents (and obviously the shooter) are the only ones to blame.
Backward value system in the human world.
All these folks that insist this was foremost a school failure sure don’t want to pay higher taxes to fund better student/support resources‼️🤷♀️🇺🇸⚖️😡
Honestly. I feel so bad for this man.
Why?
This is all a moot point seeing how he already committed the mass shooting. The Parents should have done better. You can’t blame this on the school system. His parents failed him miserably. My prayers for the family and friends of the victims. 4 beautiful lives lost is so heartbreaking when it could have been prevented.
I want to add my story here because it’s massively different but also an insane amount of parallels. I graduated HS in 2023, which I think makes me 1 year older than the shooter.
Basically around the same time, November 2021, I was starting junior year and the pandemic was rough, and one of my biggest challenges was the reshuffle of friends, but the catalyst for my “incident” was getting broken up with sometime in November 2021.
I snapped, I remember getting in my car and just bawling my eyes out in the school parking lot, and I ended up texting my best friend and ex something along the lines of
“I should k*ll myself huh? You know I probably should, no one would give a $hi#.”
The next day, I get called into the counselors office and the whole 9 and I tried the playing it off, you know, I was just upset and I said some stuff in the spur of the moment, and it DID NOT work, it was taken very seriously, and both my parents had to come because they wouldn’t even let me drive my vehicle off school grounds it was pretty insane, it was not so much get therapy ASAP but more” he’s not allowed back in school until he’s assessed by a mental health professional.”
I’d argue mine was LESS concerning which is why I’m surprised I said “yeah I lost a bunch of friends, have zero clue wtf I’m doing after HS and I got broken up with out of nowhere and yeah the emotions were so powerful that I said some stuff I shouldn’t have, but at the same time I didn’t have a gun to me head”
I don’t think it mattered what I said; I remember thinking the school had taken it way too seriously, and maybe they did, but this is the reason I suppose.
Was also in the Midwest, Minnesota, not sure if different states have differing guidelines.
Wow thanks for sharing. Glad you did not do anything to hurt yourself and I hope any help they gave you did help you for future whirlwinds of emotion. Stay strong and we're glad you're here!
Thank you dear soul for sharing your personal experience and perception. I hope you’ve healed and found some peace since that time. Every school district is different but your contacts obviously reported your concerning messages. I have suicide amongst several family members since 1972. It is always better to overreact than under react to threats of suicide. It’s often an impulsive, emotionally charged situation. People aren’t making sound mental decisions and the outcomes are easily dire. Please seek out as many supportive resources that you can find. County, cities have mental health orgs and free support meetings, sliding scale fees etc. One day at a time or 1 hour at a time… Wishing, hoping and praying you will be comforted, safe and peaceful. Be well young neighbor..🌎🇺🇸🫶🏼🕊️
@@LindyQYup, it was just a bad rough patch. As m much as I feel the parents carry at least some responsibility, the one thing the defense did get right is the demand for mental health professionals was far higher than the supply at the time, and even for an urgent visit, the wait was a week.
But what ended up happening for me, well, my mother saw the texts and was more concerned than the school even was, and what happened what my father drove his car, because he WFH and I drove it to school, and my mom called off her work and drove me to the ER, where I talked to a psychiatrist and a therapist that same day, I went home with a therapist appt, and a note, my mother dropped it off at the school the next day, and went back to school that following Monday(So I "only" missed like 1.5 days of school). I saw the guidance counselor one time after that to confirm I was doing therapy and saw I was doing much better, and that was pretty much it.
Finally, I will say that seeing a therapist is a great resource, I really think that therapy can be great for anyone these days, not just people with some kind of mental illness or problem. It's helped me a lot to deal with those problems and emotions, it's hard to explain, but it's helped me and I can only vouch for its effectiveness.
@@BeegirlsHoneyHouseFirst off, I am sorry for your losses over the years. I hope you can find peace through it.
I read this statement many many years ago, and it struck me, how accurate, "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem."
IRONICALLY, the person that said this ended up killing himself years later. Reason was because he'd suffered a heart attack and that can cause severe depression. It was Joan Rivers husband.
There is a fifth victim....that poor counselor😢
No way he failed
@@mistyedwards8940he's totally incompetent!
That counselor is NOT a victim. He is just as responsible as the parents. He let that kid return to class. 4 kids are dead, 7 others were injured. How dare you!
@@kristindelor9897 he had 90 minutes of information... he didn't know this kid's life.. he didn't know there was a gun in the house... he didn't know he was learning how to shoot a gun.... he didn't know he got a gun as an early Christmas gift.
He didn't know all the history of his mental problems and neither did his parents because he hid it from them. The shooter lied to the counselor and told him he wanted to go into video graphics or whatever.
One thing I've learned is that you can't trust your kids they're lying and they will deceive you and they will hide things from you!... and you have to get involved and get into their room get into their devices... be proactive!!!
But it is no way a counselor's job, who has 400 kids to take care of!! The parents only had ONE kid to take care of!! how dare YOU!
@@mspamela2008 he had 3 days of information from meetings he had with that kid. Emails from teachers about concerning behavior.
I would have called the child services on these two parents
EXACTLY! This is where the school failed!!
To report what?
I would as well the school didn’t bother to search his backpack because if they did this could have been prevented
I so feel for this counselor. As a school counselor, I just wish he would have assessed for risk of others given the nature of the math homework. 😢 Parents were at fault not informing school of the gun they bought him.
IF the parents had disclosed that they just purchased a handgun and ammunition FOR their son, and that the parents had witnessed mental health issues their son was exhibiting after all the losses he had experienced, then the counselor would have known the entire situation and could have reacted appropriately. This defense attorney is trying to put the sole responsibility on the school and avoiding the fact that the parents failed to inform the school officials of their son’s behavior at home and his access to a handgun!
@pretzeltime
The defense attorney is doing exactly what is required of an effective lawyer. She is raising a variety of issues in order to create reasonable doubt. That’s the legal and moral obligation and burden the defense bar assumes.
The state has the burden of making a case beyond a reasonable doubt. Our system requires these responsibilities on both sides.
@@melindaostergren8115 thank you. I understand the aspect of the legal system. I was merely pointing out the obvious.
I think the defense attorney is trying to show the shooting was not foreseeable for the parents and the counselor despite similar knowledge. Only then her defense strategy makes sense, otherwise both would need to be charged, but what she really wants is to show, that nobody can be charged with involuntary manslaughter.
Man I feel sorry for this counselor
In a way I do, but he's also a mandatory reporter who allowed the student to go back to class with a loaded gun in his backpack. He could have searched the backpack but did not. So this guy to me has liability in this case just like the other school official who was in the room.
@@cubsfan1622000 yea, he definitely made a mistake
Firstly, no one including the parents said they owned a gun nor had given him one. They had phone call, e mail and in person meeting and never said anything about the gun- the focus was on Ethan self reporting his sadness about situations lately. He didn’t “let” him take a gun - there was no mention of a gun so how would he know!
exactly this, it's easy to have hindsight and say he should've done this or that. When you have these meetings often with other students, I can understand thinking this is another case where the parents will get the student help. It is their responsibility after all. It's also very hard to deal with parents in a school setting, administration will often not side with the personnel over the parents actions/decisions. This guy had 400 students to manage. He knew this was beyond his scope and contacted the parents and gave them all plenty of information so they could get help. IMO, he did his job with the knowledge and the resources he had. @@noreengardner1075
@@noreengardner1075 exactly. 💯🎯 The ONLY adults who "let" him have access to a gun were his wildly absent and irresponsible parents. This counselor did everything he was mandated and hired to do. Unwarranted search and seizures was not one of them.
She’s just trying to put all the blame on the school officials! BS the parents could have stopped this before it started
😂 that is her job, literally.
Grrr… the defense attorney trying to pigeon hole, project his answers and blame him for EC, not James. 😡🇺🇸⚖️
Pigeoning holes is what every good defense attorney must do. They usually get sympathy only in cases when an already convicted person is assumed to be innocent because of the new evidence and the media reports it. I am always frustrated when defense attorneys get insulted for doing their job.
@@MrsLangue
It’s a filthy job but everyone has a right to a defense representative in the united states. Defendants that have clearly been shown to neglect basic common sense accountabilities should plead guilty and quit wasting taxpayer money trying to fabricate a cover of innocence. Pity you find frustration for the defending of the indefensible with these tactics. 🤷♀️🌎🇺🇸⚖️
@@BeegirlsHoneyHouse If a defendant decides to plead not guilty, the defense lawyer needs to defend him to the best of his ability independent from his personal opinion. If he would not do it then a conviction can be appealed and that would be a real waste of taxpayers money. Additionally, this case was a precedent: even independent legal analysts were not sure if the charge of involuntary manslaughter can be proven (instead of lesser charge of child neglect or the failure to properly secure a firearm, which were usually used in such cases). So why should the defendant plead guilty to the more serious crime if legal minds said the case will test the law limits? A defendant might also feel responsibility, but that not directly translates to which kind of crime he would plead guilty. He does not really have the necessary legal knowledge to make that assessment if alternative charges are possible. The prosecutors also play dirty sometimes and try to impact the jury in an inappropriate way (for example they put sometimes negative speculations forward about witnesses and defendants, that they cannot really prove).
I too feel sorry for this counselor with a terrible work load BUT he missed it with likely the most needy, serious, damning troubled student in his entire career. What is the point in having counselors if they can't even notice the most blatant cry for help!?!?
He did notice, the parents just ignored them when he brought them to their attention
She makes statements instead of asking questions-soooo offputting
In my experience school counselors do the least they can. They have so many students and if you’re withdrawn and quiet they will just be happy you’re not causing problems and not intervene further. This case is so sad though, I feel for the counselor, the parents totally dropped the ball. They were also trying to do the least and the results were tragic.
A risk assessment required asking if he has thoughts of harming others or a plan as there was evidence of risk call resource officer go get your stuff - Back pack and locker search end of story.
yes
Or considered homicidal signs not just suicidal he had evidence of gun references
Having gone to school to be a counselor, I realize the general population puts way too much blame on mental health professionals as if they have the power to predict and stop these kinds of things and they absolutely don’t. People can only be helped if they WANT help and WANT to stop themselves from doing something horrible. We can only identify the problems in hindsight. This guy had very little context as to what was actually going on and the risk factors. The parents knew the risk factors and did nothing.
@skeeveynicks
I was with you until your last sentence.
Mr. Crumbley’s lawyer is very much more skilled than his wife’s lawyer. Whether or not she has a claim for ineffective counsel remains to be seen.
Also, this kid has to know they are on to him with all these meetings but it wasn't enough to stop him smh
A sign of his mental health struggles, being fixated on the topic. Not able to change his behaviors despite redirection.
Pretty sad that TEACHERS noticed that the teen had potential psychological issues, but not his CLUELESS, UNATTENTIVE so called "parents". So sad. This kid was self aware enough to notice HIMSELF that he desperately needed help...& they did NOT, nor attempted to try and help when he told them that. It's unfortunate he didn't express that to his counselor, who seems very understanding & caring, but things like that are hard for a young teen. This counselor had so much concern and empathy for him ...yet could only do so much. Just an extremely sad situation. And now fatalities occurred that makes this even more tragic. SHAME on these patents!! They are absolutely GUILTY in more ways than ONE!!
Too bad the school didn't contact the parents for the previous concerns for Ethan. The school held information from the parents and the parents held information from the school.
The school knew he went to the shooting range.
In one of the instances that caused concerns about Ethan, the teacher said never mind he was just joking with other students. That aligns with what Jennifer crumbly said. He was always joking. Ethan manipulated them all. Although it would be very hard, I hope the jury can put their feelings aside when making their decision. I just don't see how it was foreseeable what Ethan did. Not one person thought he would have done what he did. It irritates me that people think he was begging for help. The kid is a phycopath.
@@kirbykirbalicious448I went to school during the post-columbine era and nobody took these things as "jokes" then. You can't just take the kids word for it that it's a joke. Especially now when there's so many school shootings.
Son: "Halp meee". Mom: "Lol. Horse back riding ttyl"
The defense attorney is asking a lot of what-ifs and hypotheticals. I compliment the counselour for his focus.
Yeah, can't compliment him on anything else since he's totally incompetent.
I wonder if they will put Ethans friend, who he confided in, on the stand🤔
I was think about this, they really should. I bet he knows so much more than all these people combined. But would he actually admit any of it 🤔
This man and the dean of students should be charged for negligence as well. They saw the math paper, knew he was looking up bullets in class, and knew how depressed he was. These men were in a position to do more, and they did nothing. They failed the victims and the entire Oxford community. This whole thing could have been prevented if they would've used their freaking heads and took action. This infuriates me so much as a lifelong Michigander.
His definition of suicidal ideation is weak and inaccurate. It is having suicidal thoughts, but not yet having a specific plan nor exhibiting gestures/behaviors toward suicide (extreme reckless behavior, dangerous substance use, etc). Helping a child differentiate between thoughts and active intent. Making a safety plan (with parents) when there is ideation vs hospitalization when there is behavior and imminent safety is at risk. The rest of his testimony seemed appropriate. It was good to hear he would have called CPS the following day if parents didn’t follow through. He made a judgment call. So I’m less critical of this testimony vs what I saw in mom’s trial.
Knowing I gad a plan, if and when is actually what kept me around.
I wish they did just go have a nice day with their son and show they actually cared i think it could have changed the way Ethan felt and if he would had gotten some mental health help he wanted and needed this could have beeb prevented
It’s unbelievable to me that with all the school shootings that happen in this country and neither him or the dean that saw Ethan’s drawings and the WORDS written on them and NEITHER ONE OF THEM weren’t alarmed enough to DO MORE! How much more serious does it have to be to take more drastic action!!! The signs were right in front of their faces on 3 separate occasions!!!! I mean come on!!! It doesn’t take a frigin rocket scientist to look at those drawings and the words written on them and realize the kid was very disturbed!! A frigin 10 year old could have looked at them and come to that conclusion but your trying to tell me that A SCHOOL COUNSELOR and THE DEAN of students that both have degree’s in that field didn’t think it was SERIOUS ENOUGH!!! LIKE WHAT!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!
Yes!!! Thank you!! For educated professionals, these two look incredibly stupid.
broken system = broken parents.. they go hand in hand..
Omg this judge is not listening!
School admin knew their students were under great stress from the disruptions, isolation, cancelations of needed activities, and the face masks.
They knew kids were at higher levels of abnormal strain. Tge staff madexacdecision to keep the student in the building. They know some kids shoot schools up. They had a kid drawing violwnt pics and researching funs. They did not empty the kid's backbpack.
School is as liable as the parents.
The administration did not take teacher concerns seiously
The parents (who knew the student was experiencing mental health issues, had requested help that they had not provided, had access to an unsecured firearm and ammunition, and was making related drawings at school), chose not to tell school personnel or to take the student from school to get help or to look after him. The student’s behavior at school prior to the shooting didn’t rise to the level of arrest or involuntary hospitalization or to a lesser extent disciplinary action (in school suspension, etc) so what else was the school to do? In the absence of additional information (like that withheld by the parents) what legal grounds did the school have to search the student’s bag?
school had very good cause to dump the backpack . They still weren't allowing lockers to be used but there was clear cause to dump a locker and dump backpack. Violent drawings, focus on guns, desperate pleas in writing, researching ammo , parent trip to shooting range ,as reported bythe student. All of this justifies , nay, demands search of backpack and locker. That would have definitely resulted in call to cops and trip to mental hospital through the ER.
Not only good cause to search but a Duty to make sure the school was not in eminent danger.
Do not get me wrong , i am frightened by the negligence of these parents.
FOUR adults failed in their responsibitlies to the kid and the school.
@@nancykaplan7163 generally speaking, law enforcement would need probable cause and school personnel would need reasonable suspicion to search the bag. Parents have no legal limitations on searching the bag of their child. They could have done that themselves or requested that school personnel do so, but did not. If a student or faculty member reported seeing a weapon there would have been legal grounds to search. As the facts have been presented in now the third trial related to this terrible chain of events, the parents held all the cards that would have given school personnel sufficient cause to search or take more substantive action.
Where is that friend that the shooter was texting! Lets ask those parents a few questions, they probably moved away because they knew the shooter had issues, the Crumbly's don't know anything unless it's horse related. Charge them with child neglect!👩⚖️
I was wondering if the other kid’s parents wanted to distance their son from EC. They did say that friend had stopped answering his text.
400 cases! How many of those did he actively see regularly? How do you do that adequately?
Sadly, that's pretty standard in my experience working in public schools. Most students are NOT seen regularly because counselors are busy checking in with the ones who are of most concern and connecting the high achievers with opportunities like enrichment programs. At my school, they are also sometimes responsible for creating presentations on various topics for students and teachers. But most people don't want to pay more taxes to support schools, so here we are.
I got lost in the school system. 400 cases per 1 adult is crazy. I am grateful I had excellent parents to help me further my education.
I dont understand why school counselors are also in charge of their schedules. They just cant possibly balance social emotional needs and the deadlines of schedules and college applications etc for 400 students. Admin should do schedules.
“Guidance Counselors” used to be responsible for academic and career planning but over time morphed into “School Counselors,” who are still responsible for academic and career planning but somehow also social emotional support and education. School counselors are not mental health professionals per se (although some counselors actually are trained clinicians, it is certainly not a requirement). School counseling is not intended to be therapy and counselors do not diagnose or treat. (In most situations school psychologists and school social workers who might also possess clinical credentials do not provide those services either - evaluations, testing and psychosocial histories for the purposes of determining what, if any accommodations should be required at school to support learning is essentially the extent.) Roles may vary by school system too. In some instances, school counselors may serve ostensibly as assistant principals, truancy officers, or some other purpose altogether… As you point out, most school counselors are responsible for too many students to effectively do all of the things heaped on them. Such is the case for most public school employees (faculty, substitute teachers, administrators, support staff, security officers, bus drivers, cafeteria workers, custodians, etc.) - too few expected to do too much for too many.
Will this look like the same trial as his wife? Copy and paste ?
So far pretty close with the exception of a less annoying defense attorney.
Pretty much. The prosecution already have proof of concept.
There is not enough mental health help in schools.
Maybe that Oxford HS administration who were involved in this case should have been held criminally accountable
Yes, Who are the professionals here?. Just what is their responsibility? Just seeing that everything is "politically correct" or Lord knows we couldn't have anything reflect bad on the school ! And then if they do say something they would get sued by the parents!
This entire case, and the one against his wife, just reeks of hindsight bias. Nobody could predict what happened. Ethan's parents never had a chance at trial.
100 fact
Guilty or not what is going to be the out come of this very sad for both of them the parents ❤🙏
I bet if ethan would had mentioned to the counselor how his parents tell him to suck it up when he asks for help it would have been taken more seriously
It's not child's job to do the job for the counselor.
Suicidal ideation is statement or thoughts of harming self. Did he say that? Homicidal ideation is thoughts actions ideas of harming others
The whole thing makes me so sad I feel for this kid but also don’t believe in killing others his parents needed to be their for him it’s so sad this all could of been prevented innocent lives lost for no reason he should of been sent home no matter it’s the parents responsibility. Why didn’t they check his backpack the police should of been involved it’s just so sad to me
If my child needs help I’m on it
School employees had no reason to believe he had access to firearms. As others have said, without reasonable suspicion that the student was planning a criminal act, they didn't have the right to search his backpack without his parents' permission. Perhaps they should have asked his parents, but again, they didn't know the parents had an unsecured gun.
It is very evident that Ethan Crumbley's parents did not care about their son . Jennifer Crumley was having her affairs, like James crumbly whom also, was having his affairs. Afterwards, that they had satisfied their selfish needs, the crumblies left their son unattended. Had the crumblies both been concerned parents for their son, whatever mental dysfunctional disability that their son had, in the first place conversation should have never bought their son a gun irregardless the third son wanted his parents to buy him a gun. Mr and Mrs crumbly should have been more intelligent as parents Karma and put their concern for their child first above all, but no Mr and Mrs crumbly bought their son immaturely a gun knowing that their son suffers from mental disabilities. Were there are many couples who desire to become parents, they would have been better parents to Mr & Mrs crumley's son, whereas, Mr and Mrs crumbly did not care about their own son. They were too busy tending to their own selfish interests, and now, both Mr and Mrs crumbly are on trial, because of their irresponsibility as parents, that they both ignorantly committed the unsinkable act against parenting, when they bought their son a gun that was specifically used in their son murdering for innocent classmates of his. Maybe Mr and Mrs crumbly did not physically murder 4 of the sun's classmates, but irregardless the very gun that was used in the murder, is the very reason why both Mr and Mrs crumbly are on trial. Mrs crumbly went on trial 1 to 2 months ago, and now Mr crumbly is the front of the honorable Judge being tried for four counts of involuntary manslaughter. This entire crumbly family home has been physically / mentally destroyed destroyed, because of the ill will actions that Mr and Mrs crumbly did not take to prevent the murders of 4 innocent teenaged children Hisense classmates of Mr and Mrs Crumley Mr crumbly is his equally guilty as his wife. They both should never see the outside of prison again when Mr and Mrs crumbly bought their son a weapon, they signed their son's death warrant, because now karma for sure he is locked up for the rest of his Natural Life, whereas, if Mr and Mrs crumbly sincerely loved their son the state genuinely were concerned about his welfare, their son could have received adequate psychological help is before these innocent teenage children were murdered. Therefore, Mr and Mrs Crumley are equally guilty for the same crimes. Well now, like Mrs crumbly and both their son are in prison now, and soon to follow Mr crumbly will be convicted as well. This entire family has been completely destroyed, because of the ill will of parenting, this is the reason why Mr and Mrs crumbly are held accountable. They are not being accountable for their son's crime of murder, that Mr and Mrs crumbly are being held accountable for buying their son a weapon, and the consequences of their poor parenting skills, their son committed murders of four innocent classmates of his. They both are being held accountable, because they did not prevent their son from committing a crime, Mr and Mrs crumbly as parents did not seek psychological help for their son. They both knew the third son had some deep-seated mental problems, and they just merely sat on their butt Palma and ignored the signs of their son Distributing mental set logical problems. There isn't a appellate court that will overturn Mr and Mrs crumblies convictions, or at least presuming that Mr crumbly will be convicted like his wife was convicted also. This is a sad situation, but could have been prevented, if only Mr and Mrs crumbly had displayed more concerned for their son, rather than entertaining their affairs with other men / women. Where does it say in the textbooks that the schools are responsible for the parents children question mark where is it in the medical book that says that doctors slash nurses are responsible for children of parents it is up to the parents to take care of their children at all times.
This terrible but their son was not at this time "diagnose " with any mental disabilities that I have heard of. It is easy to say things after the fact. Evidently the courts prosecuted him as having his faculties. School counselors should have some power to demand medical help. Yea , try to get help. You can not even get many offices to return your call for an appointment!
The son should of gotten help from them both wick are his parents
All I hear are excuses of a school counselor. The school should be held accountable as well
Judge talks too quiet...i haven't heard anything she says. Also the witnesses can't be heard much either.
Did anyone else notice James C flipping off the court as Day 3 ended???
Also does anyone else notice the prosecuter sometimes asks questions youd think the defense would be asking?
Like hes asking did you know anything about them having a gun etc.
That is nothing special. The prosecutor knows the answer, which is beneficial to his case.
I really like the counselor. The attorney is annoying to me.
Counselor flat failed, but Ethan was manipulating him. How could he have known?
I think that once Ethan's demeanor changed from "oh, this was just a video game" to expressing sadness and mentioning the recent sad events that had happened, the counselor probably could have tried to connect that sadness to the words "The thoughts won't stop" on the drawing, to dig a little deeper to see if he was experiencing thoughts that went beyond typical sadness or grief. But outside of that, I'm not sure what else he could do. The parents not mentioning the recent gun purchase or checking his backpack is the most egregious failure, and is largely why they ended up being charged.
Just like healthcare. The learning system is way down. To many substitute teachers. School systems always about budget
So we can count on your to vote for more taxes to support schools in the future? Great. We school employees thank you.
This guy messed up and he knows it
How did he mess up?? He didn't know about the gun purchase, because the parents intentionally withheld that information. The parents should have checked his bag.
He knew they went to the gun range
@@Chris-kl2xz Big difference between simply going to a gun range and having been bought a 9mm semiautomatic handgun just 4 days prior.
As owners of guns we have a hudge safe and it is never unlocked. Gun safety. I think parents neglected to put that gun in a safe locked place. Idk why they didnt buy a lock that goes on the gun itself. You never buy a child a hand gun. Sad but i dont think they thought there son was going to go n school and kill people. God bless those kids families.
The school should be charged
So 3x wtf
I would not feel comfortable talking to this guy if I were a student. His facial emotions are way over the top to take him seriously. Schools need good counselors and lots of them.
He reveals too much information. Just answer the question. Sometimes that’s just a yes or no
Not guilty
This unseasoned/untrained counselor missed every single red flag; every single one. He is inexperienced and covers it up by talking a good talk. Listening to him makes me physically sick.
'Based on what he told me, etc', where is your f clinical intuition?
This dad does not belong in jail. Period.
I disagree. I think both he and the mom were very reckless and negligent when they made the decision not to tell the school officials about the recent gun purchase, check Ethan's backpack, or take him home (or at least, away from the school). But it's curious that you just say "this dad does not belong in jail." Does that mean you think the mom actually does belong there, or that neither parent does?
He did NOT SECURE THE FIREARM. END OF STORY
This counselor is just as guilty. If he really wanted the best for the kid he would have pushed for parents to take out school. And he hardly ever followed up leading up to shooting
He had no chance to follow up because the shooting happened the same day. This counselor had to work within the bounds of the school, you can’t force negligent parents to take their kids out of school. Counselors don’t actually have that much power, to call him just as guilty is you wanting a scapegoat.
It's ridiculous to say that the shooting is a result of this counselor "hardly ever following up." He had made himself available multiple times to Ethan and offered to get him help...something the parents never did. And at the end of the day, most people can only be helped if they want it. He's not "just as guilty" whatsoever. He didn't know about the gun purchase. It was much more incumbent on the parents to check his backpack and make sure the weapon wasn't there. The parents' lack of exercising reasonable care contributed way, way more to the shooting than anything the counselor ever did.
Thank you for providing supportive comments for this counselor. School personnel have very little control of students or their parents at all. He is devastated.🌎🇺🇸🫶🏼🕊️
"He would have pushed for parents to.."...why? Final responsibility is the parents...teachers, counselors play supportive roles in educating children but raising them starts and ends with mum and dad ...there should be no "pushing" involved.
@MichaelCestare - Curious how old your children are? 🇺🇸🌎🤷♀️
I’m sorry but I don’t believe this counselor at all.
What about his testimony do you not believe? I am not judging your oppinion - i'm just curious.
yeah I feel that way too. something is off about him.. but when james lawyer cross examine the counselor you can tell his attitude is ugly as if he is annoyed. Like even his face is frown up.
This councilor is worthless-