Is BJJ just Kosen Judo? Or is it a Judo which is more like Jiu-Jitsu?! - Kama Explains
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- čas přidán 19. 12. 2019
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You described the rules and context perfectly, keep in mind the rivalry between Kanemitsu and Oda was in the late 1910s and early 1920s, kanemitsu even invented the knee bar in 1922 to beat Oda's team cause Ashi Garami was banned a few years earlier, the point is they were doing leg locks and rolling way before the establishment of the Gracie Academy(1925) however i give credit to the Gracies to spreading the art but they shouldn't be credited for inventing ground grappling with the gi because it's a huge misconception, i discuss all this history on my channel i made tens of videos on this topic.
Excelent answer Chadi !!
100% true and it's weird why the Gracie family refuse to just come out and say that their GRANDFATHER learned Judo first there was no bjj back then, this is actually getting really silly and a martial art that has no History isn't a martial art plain and simple
Kanemitsu did not invent knee bar, things like knee bar and similar techniques were already present in the wrestling repertoire from some ancient civilizations even before Christ, there are paintings in vases and texts describing this type of techniques. And this is the problem with saying that someone invented a basic combat fighting position, for things as essential like this there is always someone who had make this move before, and this is why the system matters more than any particular position or move, the idea that you can attach a particular name to a fighting position is ludicrous. Names like "De la Riva guard", "kimura", or others are only names of convenience, any of this fighting postions have been done before their credited "invention".
@@truth-uncensored2426 show me evidence of a knee bar prior to 1921
@@Chadi I guess he couldn't find solid evidence 🤣
Coming from a Judo background who is currently active in BJJ, this has to be one of the best most articulated video I've seen regarding the difference between these two fine arts. Excellent job!
I think there would be a lot less resentment from judo and traditional jujitsu practitioners if there was more acknowledgement from the BJJ community about the roots of their art. I watched a video of Kron Gracie telling a room full of students that Helio invented the guard... I just laughed and turned it off right there.
Not true, Helio never said he invented anything he only “modified” what he was taught to accommodate his slight build, his lack of strength and athleticism. He eliminated a few things that Maeda taught as well because it was not efficient for him. He and his brother Carlos always gave credit to the Japanese. Any resentment felt by anyone is a lack of true understanding. The art and the sport community of Jiu-Jitsu has evolved well beyond those silly accusations against the Gracie’s, who by the way (in large part) spread this incredible fighting style around the world. There will always be those who hate and that’s what haters do. The evidence is clear, however.
@@duncansutherland47 Oh I know it's not true. But here's the video of Kron claiming the guard did not exist before Helio. This is the kind of thing that fosters the idea that they don't respect where their art comes from.
czcams.com/video/ilf9OoRNPRM/video.html
You're of course absolutely correct, Helio never claimed things like that, nor Carlson or Carlos. It's the later generations that are infamous for this sort of hubris.
@@duncansutherland47 I also agree wholeheartedly that the art has evolved beyond this sort of thing. I think this video is a great example of that. 👍
@@duncansutherland47 I love the BS of Helio being so small, un-athletic, and outsized. So, he therefore modified BJJ. Yeah, a guy of Scottish and Portuguese roots would be so much smaller and weaker than Japanese men of that (and prior) time frame.
It's propaganda through and through. Helio DID NOT reinvent the wheel- he taught the same amalgamation of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, Kito Ryu, and Fusen Ryu that would go on to be both Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
Hardcaliber19 If you substitute “adapted” for “invented” then the objections pretty much disappear. Adaption is common in martial arts. That’s why there are so many styles that claim to be unique but really have more in common and very little real difference.
I have been wondering this ever since I found out about Kosen Judo. Thank you for this video!! Btw, Masahiko Kimura still doesn't get the recognition he deserves. He was the true goat of his era
Rikidōzan Mitsuhiro Momota would probable dispute that.
Very good video, thanks! Good, researched and balanced view.
Great Explanation! Thank you.
I know this video is older but still very relevant. I was in line with your thinking but you mentioned some things that really helped me adjust my thinking on the separation of each art and why that’s important and what each art shares and why that is important. Thank you.
From a self defense standpoint ; I wish old school jujitsu / Judo was still taught . Seems most self defense techniques which are considered “ dangerous “ in sport competition are not taught anymore ?
In my opinion, judo and bjj are two sides of the same coin. Both beautiful, both affectively deadly
Excellent lecture. Thank you for sharing!
You're very welcome!
This video was very interesting and informative.
Excellent explanation
great video!
Great information!!!
I have criticized the channel in the past, but this one was a very well informed, well reasoned, Gracie mythomany&marketing-free video.
A good discussion, thank you
Great Post. Very balanced.
I am a judo player. But after listening to this guy talk for the first five minutes I already want to come to his club and enrol as a student. What a knowledgable coach. You understand the differences between the arts and give them equal respect outright. what a champ.
If you're humble/truthful/objective/honest you will talk about Judo with respect, because the absolute majority of JJ is just Judo ne-waza. That said, Kodokan/Olympic Judo that most of the world practices, in my experience especially, doesn't give groundwork nearly as much attention as it deserves.
I think lower belt JJ practitioners will definitely beat lower belt Judo practitioners if they manage to get and stay on the ground with a judoka. The opposite is equally true: Lower belt judokas will definitely beat lower back jiujitsukas standing and judo rules. I'm someone who has done Judo as a kid, and does JJ now as an adult.
I often start sparring standing up, and it sometimes takes just too much time for one to get the other to fall (I've forgotten a lot of my Judo). I wish Kosen Judo was more popular, they should have a more complete system. As it is, I'm considering supplementing my JJ with wrestling, which is what my academy offers for no extra charge.
Brilliant video good sir, the closest ive seen to Kosen judo here in Europe is Freestyle Judo. I lived in Japan for a few years when I was younger because my father worked for Honda. My Judo/Jujitsu sensi over there was a graduate of Kyoto university, he used to let us spar Kosen rules. I will say I felt more comfortable sparing bjj as it reminded me more of those days when I was younger. he also taught JJIF rules jujitsu so for me learning BJJ is more like what I have done previously so I've felt more comfortable doing it.
Excellent explanation, I came from Judo now doing both BJJ and Judo and equally loving them. And I have to mention that watching those guys in the background I told myself: that's a proper warmup👍
I just like to think of it as like Netball vs Basketball, they're the same thing just different rule sets.
In lot of the kosen tourneys that I've seen, their throws tend to focus more on sutemiwaza, more so then tachiwaza.
Thank you Professor Ryan for allowing Sensei Dean, to address the origins, differences and similarities between Brazilian jiu-jitsu and judo, without any biased prejudice. The way I see it many martial arts would be the source, from which other styles can evolve, develop and be modified, to suit the needs of the particular individuals who created those combat systems, as well as those similar to them, physiologically.
The way that grandmaster Carlos Gracie and his brother Grandmaster Helio Gracie did things, will differ slightly, due to their individual body type, strengths, build and structure. From what I have observed even amongst his sons, Rorion, Rickson, Relson, Royce, Royler Gracie and so forth, their way of training, practicing, teaching and particular focus on certain techniques, will vary amongst them, despite all having been taught by their father, Grandmaster Helio Gracie.
So Brazilian jiu-jitsu itself emanating from Japanese Kozen Judo itself, how can it not evolve into a system being different in focus, approach and application of many of its techniques, compared to Judo? Judo itself is not a single unified system, despite the fact that its founder was Kano Jigoro. Even amongst students at the same martial arts school, irrelevant of the style, no two or more instructors under the same master, practice, teach, compete with the exactly the same manner.
It is better to focus and appreciate the similarities and comparabilities that judo and jiu-jitsu share in common and how they can benefit one another from cross training, as opposed to the childish bickering, of which style is more original, more practical, effective or better. Judo itself comes from Japanese traditional jiu-jitsu, which in turn Judo in Brazil evolved into Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Thank you also Sensei Dean, for taking the time to clarify things, in a respectful, non biased manner.
By the way Professor Ryan our Kyokushin Karate master has been teaching some Brazilian jiu-jitsu and wrestling, mixed martial arts students, our Kyokushin Karate striking techniques, they in turn have been teaching our master their grappling, ground fighting and submission techniques. This is beause this grapplers and ground fighters want to be more well rounded, for their mixed martial arts competitions. In turn our Kyokushin Karate master has begun to teach and let us practice ground combat techniques, as part of our Thursday nights fight class. I must say Brazilian jiu-jitsu or ground fighting in general, requires a different level of fitness, stamina and the body muscles to get used to, compared to stand up fighting, where unlike grappling arts, the opponent and their full body weight are on top of you.
Being a judoka to start with I love this topic.
We still train and compete in aau freestyle judo.
Ive been fascinated with this subject since forever
Then read Choque (Roberto Pereira) vols. 1-3
@@jasonjayalap Id love too. But i only can find a used volume 1 for 340 dollars. Any pdfs online?
@@Seegie16 The kindle ebooks are $10 USD each on amazon us.
@@Seegie16 Vol 1 epub is easily found
@@Seegie16 They shouldn't be 340 dollars. Email me i'll help. My username (no periods) at gmail.
Hi, I was wondering if Kosen Judo players also possess Kodokan Judo ranks, or does Kosen Judo have an entirely separately ranking system from Kodokan Judo. And what happens when a Kosen Judo player graduates from his university??
They are a part of the Kodokan and recieve their ranks and testing from the Kodokan. And most Kosen players after college dont compete in Judo anymore though a few have competed in ADCC like Kikuta Sanae(2001 winner of the 88kg championship).
Did any of the Gracies, other than Kron, state that "Helio invented the guard"? Kron is on CZcams saying it. I'm assuming he heard this from family but have no proof. Is there proof of anyone else saying this? Thanks.
Thank you for this video. I'm a brown belt judoka, been doing Judo for close to 7 - 8 years. My best friend does BJJ and he loves it. We cross train often, and I would visit his open mat when I have free time.
ALL my experiences at his open mat with his BJJ friends have been positive. We would roll and I can hold my own on the ground with most beginner to mid level BJJ. Now if I were to go against a brown belt BJJ (as a brown belt judoka) then I would struggle a bit and usually get tapped. And that's ok, cause in the process I've learned a lot from them.
The reverse is also true, some of the BJJ people would asked to start standing up with me, brown/black belt BJJ and I would do startup with them and throw them fairly easily, and they would have a good laugh at it and then ask me to teach them some basic stuff.
The point is, it doesn't hurt to learn, there isn't a "best" martial art, there is a "fit better" for certain situations. And it doesn't cost you brain "real estate" to learn both. A good throw on concrete can absolutely give someone a concussion and end the fight, but at the same time if you are mid 30s or 40s looking to learn some self defense with zero knowledge then taking a bunch of falls as an adult is very punishing, but you can start in BJJ and get in shape and slowly train your body for impacts.
So my take is just study whatever you like or close to where you live, but just be open to learning everything that you can get exposed to. Judoka can benefit a lot by visiting a BJJ gym and a BJJ person can benefit a lot from a bit of Judo too. Have fun!
Great points. Thank you!
The essential difference between Judo/Kosen Judo/Japanese Ju Jutsu on the one hand, and BJJ on the other hand, is that the former arts are all Japanese (with Japanese etiquette as a basis of practice) where as BJJ on the other hand is a collection of skills with zero etiquette (though some clubs pretend they have some or parrot Japanese etiquette without any real substance to it). Which is why BJJ should at least be up front with it's BRAZILIAN roots, and not try to brand itself as Ju Jutsu. Japanese Ju Jutsu and BJJ are worlds apart in every way. There is nothing Japanese about BJJ other than that all the skills originally came from Japan or Japanese teachers.
Speaking purely from a business perspective... If I'm a double black belt in Judo and BJJ then right now I'm branding my club as a BJJ club to get people in the door and charge them a monthly fee. It's what's getting the attention. If 10 years from now Kosen is the buzzword thats getting butts in the door then you can bet dollars to doughnuts I'm rebranding.
Finally a REAL Judo guy with sense! This is what I've been trying to explain to people for years.
Gracie’s didn’t invent anything they rebranded Judo and marketed it well. Too bad the Judo community didn’t call them out from day one. Too late now.
@@lancevelez1721 not entirely, they included some of the stuff used in traditional jj not used in judo (or historically used but banned or fallen out of favour because of the ruleset) and afaik adjusted some of the techniques. And kosen judo is not your standard judo either - if they weren't willing to export it (and do it in a personal way - kosen is a team sport) someone else made their judo and called it something else. And replacing the word judo with ju-jitsu isn't bad either, judo is a sport with rigid rules, jj is a word referring to the whole martial art, simple as.
However if anyone claims they, like, "invented" a martial art they're talking out of their asses, even gracies don't claim they did (and if some do they should get kicked out of family dinners lmao). It's just a certain form of jj, brazilian in this case, just like there's famous dutch muay thai, various local kinds of wrestling, or italian, english or german fencing and grappling.
Hell, I use "traditional" JJ in longsword all the time - partially because many techniques from treatises are either the same or very similar to what I've known since I was 8 or 9 lol
@@lancevelez1721 also judo community was too busy bickering about what should be banned next, and if 2 seconds on the ground are too much or not enough to reset, to see what was going on in Brasil lmao
Sk0lzkiy not really all techniques in bjj are judo so calling it bjj is a mismomer. Nothing new in bjj its just judo.
@@lancevelez1721 This is not correct. To say BJJ is just judo is to throw over 60 years of Gracie family modification and pressure testing out the windows as well as at least 30 years of american wrestling.
And just to be clear Judo is not what the Gracie family was taught. At least as we know it.
The positioning of BJJ and Judo are differents. I recommend the video of John Danaher talking abou how BJJ is a four step system. Is great.
Thats danahers opinion,not a fact,judo and bjj are basically the same at one time then judo went more throws,less ground and bjj the opposite but carlos and helio learned judo and nothing else.
hope to meet you sometime
Me too Goltz Sensei! Let me know when you are in Texas next.
If you're interested in a kosen event taking place in March of 2020 in Cape Coral, Florida, feel free to contact me.
I'd recommend the new documentary by robert Drysdale and checking out some of his many interviews on the origins of BJJ and it's judo origins it dispelled many myths with verifiable historical facts
I think it's important to understand that there is only ONE JUDO. That is Kodokan Judo. Kosen schools are/were Kodokan Judo schools in the sense they were following the techniques and principle of Shihan Kano, but applying, when competing against other Kosen schools, a different ruleset for Shiai. Remember at this time there was a lot of experimentation in rule set (there still is!) and Kodokan rules were not particularly well defined.
Kosen is not a different form of judo, or "scholl" or Ryu. Kosen school members could rock up at the Kodokan, receive training etc. they still do in fact. This is all Kodokan Judo/Kano Ryu Jujitsu.
Now, there is no evidence that Maeda was a Kosen judo "guy". There's no evidence that he studied any other Jujitsu other than Kodokan judo other than mentions of him practicing some Sumo as a young man. HE WAS A KODOKAN JUDO GUY. I also don't believe that BJJ evolved with much direct influence from Kosen Judo. Maeda (and others) taught what they taught in brazil and then left and BJJ evolved in a degree of isolation to the rest of the Judo world for a good few decades at least. Certainly until the 50s and by then the attitude clearly was that is was a different "art" - at least on the Brazilian side. That's why the rivalries were what they were. Thus I think Kosen and BJJ were separate coincidental evolutions of a more Ne-Waza based judo. The common root being KODOKAN JUDO.
Both Kodokan (especially the modern Olympic rules) and Kosen Judo sound more sport oriented with their pin winning conditions. But modern day Brazilian Jujitsu also seems to have become more sports oriented when compared to the days when the Gracies competed in no holds barred/Vale Tudo events
Absolutely correct
Pull guard, sweep then stall for the win! lol
Good evening everybody from Spain.
At first, I would like thanking all the clear and right explanations about this subject.
Well I'm member of Dai Nippon Butoku Kai since 2005. This old japanese organizations was founded in1895.
Just to preserve japanese martial culture of extintion with the opening of Japan to the west in 1864 and its new european habits.
Jujutsu, Kenjutsu and other old (koryu) schools were alive thanks to this organization. Jujutsu became Judo as an educational way also Kenjutsu to Kendo.
But Old Jujutsu schools were still practiced.
As very well explained at the video. Koto Sammon Gakko was a professional. martial arts Instructors school. Kosen Judo was born because Kodokan Judo forbid a lot of techniques to avoid injuries during Randori or free practice and on tournaments.
Kosen Judo still used these dangerous techniques with limitations obviously.
When Jujutsu and Judo was introduced in the west all the japanese masters like: Mitsuyo Maeda in Brazil, Katsukuma Higashi at the States, Gunji Koizumi in the UK, Mikinosuke Kawaishi in France and a lot of other experts all over the world.
They were Jujutsu and at the same time Judo ones.
Because Judo is Jujutsu but with an educational and sport focus.
The old Jujutsu and Judo taught by pioneers was almost lost because the sport side was not present and the only purpose was Self Defense and body & mind balance.
Kosen Judo it's old Judo focused on Ne Waza or ground work.
Gracie Jiu Jitsu and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are part of an heritage from the old Jujutsu and Judo through Mitsuyo Maeda as the Japanese Jujutsu Master of Master Carlos Gracie and by study and adapting this method to himself : Master Helio Gracie.
I think we all are brothers in the same arts with different approaches and at the same time with the same: health, friendship, self defense, sport and so on.
But the methodologies are different and that's a real treasure for all.
I study, research and teach the Kawaishi's Judo Jujitsu method and other wich derive it from like old Pariset Atemi Jujitsu Self Defense method.
But with all my respect and interest Gracie Jiu Jitsu it's my third method to study and to progress and I'm very happy for it.
Discovering a lot of details and things I didn't see before with that approach.
The one who doesn't want to learn.
Always will say the mine it's better than.....
For me the best method on ground fighting or Ne Waza, it's Gracie Jiu Jitsu and its ground Self Defense methodology too.
There is a lot on learning also standing both sport and Self Defense.
So Gracie Ju Jitsu, it's a school and style with all the legitimacy to say: it's a martial art.
My late belgian Sensei very long ago and my father who my first Jujitsu/Judo Sensei were.
They always told me: "Keep your mind open and try to understand and respect the others. Because every day you can learn something to make you better : keep on learning".
With all my respect and best wishes for all:
Daniel.
5th Dan Jujutsu.
2nd Dan Judo.
3th Dan Aikido.
The comment done in this video was well done. Judo and BJJ are equal and different at the same time. Let’s say the same sport with different set of rules. Where the emphasis of the rules and the way of practice make each of one stronger in one aspect. About who is the origin of the other one, I mean. The old Jiu Jitsu in Japan originate Kodokan and Kosen Judo. What Judo brought new to BJJ was the way of training. The old Jiu Jitsu practice was used as set of techniques to supplement a Samurai sword fight and practice. However, the fight of a samurai with its sword might have to fight without a sword in case of loosing its sword. In that way, the warrior eventually would have to use Jiu Jitsu as a supplement sword fight. When Judo was created as an education system. The way of training became more specialized as it is, but not as a supplement fight for a sword combat. In consequence of that BJJ used the same principle of specialization as Judo had done before as it was created by Jigoro Kano. Nonetheless, going back in time, 5000 years ago Jiu Jitsu was practiced in India with the same name as “Jiu Jitsu”. The word Jiu Jitsu is not Japanese word. Actually it is Sanscrit word. An old language spoken in ancient India. And the ancient Jiu Jitsu practiced in India was similar to Japanese Jiu Jitsu practice to supplement sword fight. The meaning of Ju Jitsu in sanscrit is “Fight of War or Art of War.”
Yes, of course, but we constantly seem to be missing the point. Bjj, at least the old school, was for actual fighting. (AKA self defense), the Gracie's were not going to start throwing out the most effective fighting techniques because some sport flakes wanted to make a game out of street survival...and then the game (ego fantasy) actually becomes more important than reality (actual fighting) and you end up with the ridicules state of modern Judo (lets forget guard work and turn our backs as our primary defensive strategy on the ground and wait for a ref to save us....ETC which is worse than not being 'trained"). Kosen dreamed up other rules, that happened to have a lot in common with BJJ, but were they trying to preserve the fighting techniques of the original judo? Maybe, since its a common tactical idea that smaller competitors can hold off the larger and more powerful players by using ground work and get the "Draw". but there is a hell of a lot more to self-defence and real fighting than ground work. and if Kosen is not doing punch defenses (standing and on the ground) and Vale Tudo training etc..and all the other rapidly disappearing elements you need to remain the most powerful self defense system, then it does not have all that much in common with old school BJJ. And we should stop comparing "rule sets" to understand BJJ, when in its original form it was the rejection of a rule set becoming more important than actual unarmed combat and the testing ground was vale tudo (no rules) not dojo pajama play fighting.
Amen. Well done.
I have been training Judo for a long time. GJJ is different than Judo. This was a great video. In my experience, most people that say BJJ is just Kosen Judo are purists or naysayers.
Its different to judo only because of the rules,its very close to kosen judo without the pins.
I think that the 'problem' is only claiming that BJJ was not a continuation of kodokan judo/kosen judo. I did hear that statement before. Nothing else. Knowing history and being honest about origins makes the whole "debate" disappear. Bushido, Jujitsu, Judo, BJJ... Evolution.
Also good to mention (and You have mentioned it) judo and BJJ suplement each other very well and it is good to know both.
Brazilian jiujitsu is NEWAZA/KOSEN JUDO . Regardless of what u think . I love both . This isnt to start a war . The facts are the facts. They modified what Meada taught them .
I thought Jiu Jitsu (traditional) was practiced by the Samurai for thousands of years to compliment their sword fighting judo as I understood it was derived from the traditional art for sporting reasons such that people can watch and nobody dies? Do I have this all wrong? What part of judo was jiu jitsu derived from?
Jujutsu->Judo->Jiu-Jitsu
Samurais were paper pushers by the meiji restoration and their techniques long useless. Kano saved some of their techniques as Judo in the late 1800s. Judo wasn't purely sport but became completely that by post WW2. Safe sparring was indeed an emphasis.
Jiu-jitsu in brazil started out (~1913) as misnamed Judo, taught by immigrant Judokas, their students, and translated books. It was performed as a ring/circus sport as a niche variant of luta livre matches (catch/grappling) with a gi. The gracies sucked as standup so they did groundfighting. By "gracies" i mean George and gracie students. Omori and Ono pointed out that what the gracies did was just judo poorly named (and with no throws), but it didn't matter until after ww2 when judo was fully international and sport and re-imported as a juggernaut.
Finally someone explaining the correct differences with disrespect. And of course we can even go deeper into history and dive deep into the details, where the roots of Japanese Jujutsu came from or why for example Maeda left Japan with friends from the Kodokan, to the US, Mexico, Cuba, Caribbeans, Central Americas, Latin America, Europe and finally returned to Brasil. His friends Sataki and Omori were also the fathers of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. The whole world is talking about the 2 Gracie brothers as the real founders of BJJ. That is wrong, the Gracies were the founders of GJJ. Let us all never forget Luiz Franca (The same class where Carlos Gracie was a student of Maeda) and his student Oswaldo Fadda... Fadda continued Fraca's philosophy by teaching BJJ to the poor, instead of only the middle or upperclass of society. The Gracies were for the wealthy Rio's City Centre, while Franca worked in the favela's and the outskirts of Rio de Janeiro. BJJ was created for all peple from their fathers Maeda -> Sataki -> Omori, Franca-> Fadda. Never forget the root differences between BJJ en GJJ!! Osu!
by the way, de la riva guard is old school, its nothing new to their practice, as a matter of fact Chadi now has a video uploaded where u can clearly see kosen judokas around the 1960s where theyre using de la riva, ricardo de la riva was either an infant or wasnt around yet when these recordings took place
So the biggest difference between Judo and BJJ basically is just the rules for competition and the focus on ground fighting?
yes
@@javierraul1466 I see. Tnx.
Thats why i actually think there is some legitimacy to the way gracies call everything jiu jitsu.
There is some truth to the idea that kanos jujutsu is indeed just a variety of jujutsu and bjj is also another variety of jujutsu.
They all have the same origin, but they are structured and trained differently.
So that perspective seems to have a lot of merit.
One thing I am glad that Japanese immigrant jūdō experts in Brazil are finally getting their due - not only Mitsuyo Maeda (1878-1941), who settled in Brazil and became a naturalized Brazilian and adopted the name, Otávio Maeda and taught Carlos Gracie - but other Japanese-born jūdōka, such as Soshihiro Satake, who in 1930 also became a naturalized Brazilian, Antônio Satake, and Geo Omori (1898-1938). These and perhaps other Japanese-born men introduced and taught their brand of Kōdōkan jūdō to local Brazilians and were the fathers of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Satake, Omori, and Maeda taught Luiz França, an often overlooked pioneer of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. França's best known student, Oswaldo Fadda (1921-2005), led the non-Gracie line of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. More exposure and coverage should be given to the Japanese-born and Brazilian-born martial artists, who were not named Maeda and Gracie, and who were so important in the development of Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
Kōdōkan jūdō, created by Jigorō Kanō (1860-1938) during the late 19th century in Japan from primarily various Japanese jūjutsu, or jiu-jitsu, styles he had studied, was called "Kano jiu-jitsu" during the early 20th century. See, for example, the book, "The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu [Judo]," by H. Irving Hancock, originally published in 1905. Even today, Gracie University refers to Japanese jūdō as "Japanese Jiu-Jitsu.."
so what did the Brazilians exactly do for them to get credited for BJJ if kosen judo already existed before BJJ was created? alot of people might say "well they perfected the ground game" but the fact is the ground game already existed which laid the foundation for BJJ.
jujutsu existed before (kosen) judo, karate, aikido, kendo, kempo...
so why are those all recognized arts when ALL of it was already in jujutsu?
or, do you just have something against Brazilians?
Kama Jiu-Jitsu nothing against Brazilians at all, I just don’t get why they make it seem like BJJ originated in Brazil when in fact it’s been around since forever.
@@KamaJiuJitsu I like BJJ (i'm just a recreational level purple belt but anyway, and also 3º Kyu Judoca), so my opinion is that the problem with the Gracies and BJJ in general is that they sistematically denied their Judo foundation. For example. in interview with Yoshinori , Rorion said "I have a strong impression about judo that judo is a sport where the objective is to throw the opponent to the ground using power", what is obviously not true, but he said that in order to remark the "leverage" invented by Helio and discredit the true principles of Judo (and of course is not a sport, it's a Budo wich has been sportified). Also, if the Gracies learn Ju Jutsu instead of Judo, the question would be: ¿what school of Jiu Jitsu they learn? Jiu Jitsu is no an art per se, is just a general term (along with Yawara, Tai-Jutsu, etc.), so if you claim you know Ju Jutsu, you had to provide your lineage. So, i would say the Gracies learn Judo (and please enough of the "at time they call it Jiu jitsu", because we and they know today that what they learn at that time was strict Kodokan Judo), empashize the newaza, developed rules-sets for a more dynamic combat and marketize to EE.UU. Of course this has merit, no one can deny that, and because of that the ground game was still very alive. Besides, there is a point that makes a direct link between Judo and BJJ: the open system of instruction, that is, the allowance of teach the art to anyone, something that the traditional JJ doesn't have, and that explained the internationalization of Judo. Search for traditional Ju Jutsu schools (I mean real traditional, before Meiji era, and not traditional with 30 yrs of existence) and the requisites for atending them, they are, still today, very close in that matter. Anyway, thanks for this channel, helps me with my Judo/BJJ comprehension and with my english (as you can guess, I'm a not english speaker). Cheers
@@KamaJiuJitsu all those arts are very different from jujitsu so of course they are separate arts.Kosen and bjj are virtually identical.
@@KamaJiuJitsu
Most importantly,
Maeda who taught the Gracie Family Judo, was a Kosen Judo expert .Maeda was also a prize fighter who learned American folk style wrestling ( submission wrestling ) ... He taught the Gracie family his version of Grappling. The newaza focused Judo and wrestling.
Now, according to History, this is what Carlos Gracie said
''As Maeda passed away,Carlos Gracie sr, took over his Judo club and eventually began referring to it as “Gracie Jiu-Jitsu”, dropping the “Judo” name due to a desire Maeda reportedly expressed to him before passing away that he should go back to the traditions of Jiu-Jitsu and away from the increasingly “sportive” side of Judo."...
So, with that being said... Lets not call it Kosen-Jitsu, Maeda-Jitsu or Judo... Lets call it Gracie-JIU-JITSU..
Do you see a problem with that?
I think part of the draw is the desire for a more balanced art without cross training. Judo originally had more balance, Judo became very stand up centric and banned loads of techniques and BJJ very ground focused.
Kosen Judo is still a martial art, albeit one that is extremely focused on competition; though Judo can be said to have the same focus vis-à-vis the Olympics. However both of these Judos still retain Kano’s rules of conduct and respect and self-development in the context of improving society. These are necessary and definitive features of Judo.
BJJ however does not have these intrinsic principles it aims to instill in the BJJ-isto. In the event these ideas appear they are borrowed from the later-developed curriculum of Judo, not original to the lineage of BJJ.
So, of course a combat sport will develop more competitive techniques and rules. But winning isn’t supposed to be the point of Judo.
Definitely a continuation of Judo, I mean that's where BJJ came from anyway, and Judo from traditional Jujitsu, I don't see a problem with telling the truth. BJJ just concentrated on Newaza instead of Tachiwaza as did Kosen.
What do you think of the Freestyle Judo ruleset?
I love the freestyle rules! I think it offers more balance between newaza and tachi waza, and I like the fact that it preserves leg grabs. I've seen tournaments experimenting with other rules as well, including adopting a two ippon rule (Fight 2 Win does this). The more variety the better, as it creates a more well-rounded martial artist. As a general point, though, I think it is important to train the entirety of judo or bjj, without regard for what the rules of the next tournament are. If the training is solid, then modifying things a bit for competition should work just fine.
What ground techniques does BJJ have that Kosen judo does not have?
Good question
All half guards; leg lock entries; most head arm triangle chokes like darces and anacondas; lower lapel chokes since they're banned in judo; peruvian necktie; MAYBE the ashi garami game that's in the current meta in nogi since judo never had any records of competitors being leg lock + single leg x guard experts; heelhooks and kneebars since they were never originally Judo and BJJ got them from outside sources like prowrestling/cacc.
Both could instantly adopt any innovation by the other, improve on it, and give it back. More to the point, a MA isn't defined just by its collection or invention of techniques.
pulling guard and stalling... so it's basically BJJ? :)
Thats sport grappling or sport BJJ, NOT Gracie Jiu-jitsu. Two completely different things.
@@dragonballjiujitsu potato potato
@@sirkickassalot123 Would you like me to explain to you the differences?
@@dragonballjiujitsu the difference is that jiujitsu was seen as the mother of all martial arts, and judo as a sport with clear and objective rules, focused on ippon...
That's why you studied jiujitsu and with these techniques you could fight judo if it was judo rules, or you could fight jiujitsu if it was mma or submission rules...
Judo was seen until WWII not only in Brazil but also in Europe and the USA as a sport within jiujitsu, a part...
segue abaixo...
@@dragonballjiujitsu Gracie Jiujitsu was NEVER ground game only...
In the ground Helio emphasized guard because he considered it the best option for the weakest to be able to fight the stronger... if you're weaker you'll always end up on the bottom...
But Gracie Jiujitsu is like that...
The Japanese said that jiujitsu was the mother of all arts and that it had everything, punch, kick, takedowns, wrestler, grapling, etc...
The Gracie learned only a small part of JUDO, so Hélio assembled the rest of it by mixing it with other arts...
From Capoeira he took the double leg, high kicks, kicks to the legs and ribs, knees, elbows and headbutts, from boxing the punches, from also tee mix with the luta livre (wrestler culture)...
Catch on CZcams Carlson Gracie's fight against Waldemar Santana, Carlson was only 17 years old, and he was trained by Hélio... that was Hélio's Jiujitsu...
Waldemar himself was a student of Hélio...
There is a legend that Hélio took the fight to the ground and submitted it... and that's not even true, there was a 1:40 fight where Helio avoided the ground and spent the fight kneeing and elbowing STANDING... because he was a 100 kg wrestler and he thought he would be crushed to the ground...
Against the Japanese, Helio said that it was impossible to take them down, that they were very good takedowns, then he would take them to the ground and submit them, but they were fights with limited rules, no punches, no kicks, and with gi...
Helio fought vale tudo, Gracie jiu jitsu was a COMPLETE style... and not just newaza...
But it didn't have a formal structure, curriculum, etc...
When the UFC is successful, what everyone wants to learn from jiujitsu is newaza, then around 1994, newaza competitions begin, BJJ appears only with the newaza part, and with the evolution of MMA, no a complete style makes more sense, jiujitsu was good on the ground...
For kicks it's better to learn muay thai, for punches it's better to learn boxing, for control it's better to learn Wrestler
Renzo, Rickson, Carlson students, they all had good wrestlers but they didn't train wrestlers, they trained Gracie Jiujitsu, even because it's really hard to find a wrestler teacher in Brazil...
In the following generations, you will observe that there is a GAP, jiujitsu students learn only ground...
Because Jiujitsu was a SMALL scene, most of the best ones went abroad, abroad they were good on the ground, but it made sense to learn wrestler with them having better wtestlers... the same worth for kicks boxing,
It ended up dismembering jiujitsu because of the very fast and disorderly growth...
And I think it was better that way, it's more efficient for the arts to specialize instead to put it all together...
And then you train each part with the BEST in that part...
For me the best comparison is with Football (soccer), brazilians did not invent football but they certainly developed a way of playing it that probably has influenced this sport in different ways, so much so that we can talk about a brazilian style or a brazilian school of playing football, some people call it "joga bonito" (beautiful game). So it's similar with BJJ, brazilians did not invent the basic ground techniques used today (not even the japanese invented by themselves all the techniques) but they certainly developed the ground game and refined it to a high level of excellence and gave it a particular system that has been proved successfuly in real world combat scenarios, and they are doing this by about 100 years, so for me it's clear that BJJ deserves to be considered a separate branch of the grappling arts, even though it shares the same trunk with others.
Another interesting point is that the first masters that transmitted the basic teachings to the brazilians, Maeda, Satake, Omori and Yano, lived for many years in Brazil and basically became naturalized. Maeda married a brazilian, and Omori, Satake, both died in Brazil, so these fighters are brazilian as well, not only japanese. What many people don't know is that Brazil is the country with the largest japanese diaspora in the world, no other country has had so much japanese immigration (not even the US), if there is a country in the world which can claim to inherit an aspect of japanese culture this country is Brazil.
Besides that as I said in another comment the original Gracie Jiu Jutsu (BJJ) incorporates wrestling holds and throws, strikes, and also the stand up techniques of Jujutsu to disarm and sweep the opponent. By incorporating these different elements BJJ already becomes a distinct martial art compared with Judo or Kosen Judo, period, you don't even need to discuss the rule set. The Valente brothers are still teaching this aspect of BJJ.
They should have just change the Brazilian jujitsu name to a native language it sounds like an offshoot because its still bares jujitsu
JUDO all the way !
So it's just Newaza under a Brazilian flag with higher monthly dues.
Riiiiight.
😂😂
What submissions did Helio even invent?
None of the first generation Gracies really invented any submissions some improved them or edited them to be slightly different but you have to go to relatively modern jiu jitsu to see techniques that weren’t already in judo
Ash-waza = Ne-waza. Ground techniques and standing techniques were developed together! Somewhere along the way the techniques got lost in translation
Ashi waza are leg throws. I think you mean nage waza.
Or tachi waza/ne waza
isalehyan thanks for the correction my friend. My Japanese absolutely sucks! lol
I just started to take BJJ classes recently and here are the reasons:
1. Relatively safer martial art to train.
2. More ground fight lessons which most street fights will end up.
3. Cooler judogi !
>judo. springs under mats in basically all legit judo dojos and stringent rules and safety measures for all things judo like crash pads and ETC
>BJJ. hard mats in most places hardly any teaching of proper standing techniques and lack of understanding between practitioners on the mat that all play at different paces and frequently get hurt ESPECIALLY in BJJ competition
> anyone who knows anything about judo knows a proper sensei will teach as much newaza/groundwork as standing Tachiwaza/standingwork
Most street fights end up on the ground but all street fights start standing up. A good throw on concrete would for sure knock you unconscious :)
I did other martial arts including an year of judo, personally don't prefer to strike or throw for self-defense that cause serious legal issue and tbh the standing grappling in BJJ classes is more than enough for self-defense already.
A wild wrestler has entered the chat
Wrestler uses Body Slam. It was very effective. - Rusty
Kama Jiu-Jitsu 😂. But seriously I think wrestlers and Judokas are generally better grapplers than bjj guys. I think more bjj schools should adapt judo and wrestling to their curriculum. I hope you don’t get offended because I love bjj
@@treroney4720 I would tend to agree, we just sit down all the time hahah. By how to you explain that it's always BJJ black belts that win ADCC?
Timothy Hodges Most of The guys who win ADCC have a lot of judo and wrestling in their styles. Also BJJ has one technique to wrestlers is an Achilles’ heel. Leg locks
@@treroney4720 very true, I think jujitsu schools need to teach more standing grappling to really be effective against other grappling arts and for self defence.
Humm someone didn't read Robert Drysdale book.. 😒😒
This video predates his book, IIRC.
Kosen Judo is Judo the only difference is Kosen is 90% grappling and 10% throws but Judo was introduced to Helio Gracie so the original martial arts that the Gracie Family learned was Judo but they stopped teaching throws and only trained grappling which is a major mistake and weakness in bjj, just Imgaine if with your bjj you also trained the throws and takedowns and takedown defense and reversals like using Sumi Gaeshi against any wrestler, bjj would be that much better
Professor Ryan you should do a video of BJJ warm up drills
We have. It’s on Dave Kama’ Patreon Channel.
I have also read that Carlos Gracie only got to brown belt from Maeda. If that is true, then technically the Gracies gave themselves black belts. I do not know. Discuss if you wish...
He didn't get any belt from Maeda ,its even doubtful he learned from him at all. Maeda didn't give any Brazilians any belt at all.
Of course the first generation gracies gave themselves every belt,nobody thinks any different.
The whole Kosen thing is interesting but fairly irrelevant to the history of BJJ. Kosen is not a style of judo, it is just competition for kids at school & uni. Just as the olympics is not a style of judo, it is just a competion for judoka; the olympics does not define what judo is or is not.
Robert Drysdale is coming toward the end of what looks like a fantastic project in which he and a team have deeply researched the early days of jiu jitsu in Brazil. The Brazilian library started to digitise their content which has made it easier for people to research this topic & that has made information about what happened 100 years ago easier to find. I would urge anyone interested in this subject to check out the many interviews that are available as podcasts & on youtube that Robert has done this year and also keep an eye on the development of his upcoming film 'Closed Guard'.
Helio, Carlos, Oswaldo, George Gracie & their fellow students were practicing judo:
Maeda was a student at the Kodokan (Jigoro Kano's school of martial arts). Contrary to internet myth, Mitsuyo Maeda did not study any other ryu or japanese ju jitsu style, he just trained at the Kodokan while in japan. The Kodokan were teaching grappling martial arts that included BOTH standing grappling (tachi waza) & ground techniques (ne waza). The Kodokan did not commonly use the term judo until the mid 1920's. When Maeda left japan to travel the world it was still commonplace for the Kodokan style to be known as ju jutsu which became spelt jiu jitsu when it was taught in Brazil. The Gracies and their fellow students concentrated more on the ground aspect of judo (ne waza) while judo in Japan began to dismiss much of the ground game, forbidding many of the original judo techniques from their competitions & not giving much time to practise it in many of their schools. By far the biggest governing body of world judo is the IJF who oversee all the major competitions, decide the rules of major sports judo meets and in turn decide what is practised at most judo schools around the world. They have banned or made it dificult to use much of what was taught during Jigoro Kanos days of the Kodokan. Luckily for us, the gracie family & their training partners were never affiliated with the any of the judo federations and just practised, what they still referred to as jiu jitsu, independently in Brazil. We owe them a huge debt of gratitude for preserving and mastering many of the lost techniques of old school judo and spreading their amazingly effective form of fighting skill around the world - that is their true legacy.
As we all know, from the 90s onward Brazilian jiu jitsu exploded onto the martial arts world scene & many new techniques & tactics have been used to expand the repertoire of a Jiu Jitsero, making modern day BJJ / submission grappling its own martial art style distinct from what is pracised in most modern day judo schools.
It is true bjj is kosen judo but .. kosen judo players love bjj because it’s a style where kosen judo players can practice there type of judo game without being discriminated.. bjj tournaments are heaven sent for a kosen judo player because kodokan rules are not fare to the newaza player
Judo/bjj dos caras de la misma moneda.
I have been doing bjj for a long time and I have learned relatively nothing new, only that in competition I can apply techniques that in Judo competition I cannot and now I understand more the reasons for the prohibition of certain techniques by the IFJ although I do not fully support them....at last BJJ = Basically Just Judo...
Learning nothing new in BJJ? That's bullshit lol
@@graciederangementsyndrome3669 not really, there is a point at least in the competitive style, or the sport only idea, where it's difficult to learn something new, specially because it would be banned
@@reaper6796 So where in Judo will you learn the latest leglock entries from the bottom and the half guard game?
@@graciederangementsyndrome3669 in a good dojo clearly, or in an mma one, easy
@@reaper6796 Such Judo gyms don't exist unless you have proof. Evidence please!
Now if Ryan would just watch this maybe he would understand that Kosen is not separate art it like all Judo is Kodokan Judo
Watch it? Shoot, I was there when Rusty filmed Dean doing this video for y’all.
BJJ is kosen judo without the throws I think.
So ...BJJ is NOT some kind of Brazilian style of Judo because of the rules...(although same outfits like Judo and the foundation techniques/positions as in Kosen Shichitei/Nanatei Judo) ( ?! )
Mmmkay !
Well ... Whatabout ADCC and 10th Planet ?! ( No gi and different rules ...)
- "Ohh no... That is Jiujitsu too!! "
Yeah. Whatever.... 🤷🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Wrong. Jigoro Kano invented a whole system of various Jiu-Jitsu styles of which he was a master of, and refined Jiu-Jitsu techniques to make it into a sport for physical and educational development.
Jiu-Jitsu throws usually were designed to maim and throw someone on their head - Kano reengineered them.
Moreover, Kano extracted the hidden principles of Jiu-Jitsu and elaborated them in Judo. Things like off-balancing - those concepts were in ancient Jiu-Jitsu of warriors with armor, but he had to translate such concepts to a gi. He combined ne waza from another Jiu-Jitsu style, as well.
Jigoro Kano set the art up to be a Olympic sport, finalized by Kyuzo Mifune.
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has absolutely no comparison to the genius of Jigoro Kano, and yet I absolutely agree that they've added techniques and elaborated in the way the sport is practiced, with no-gi, etc. There is no doubt the Brazilians have enriched the ground game to new heights.
So Kosen would be the best all round art to learn
More like the jack of all trades. A Kosen judoka would get smoked by an Olympic level judo athlete and get destroyed by BJJ competitors who are champs in IBJJF and ADCC competitions.
@@graciederangementsyndrome3669Kosen community is very small compared to the overall IJF Judo or BJJ community, if IJF make a new judo rules identical to BJJ's, in no time the ground level will be the same. If IBJJF make a rules similar to Judo in no time BJJ can get to the same level of throws like Judo. Do you get it? Rules dictate where the art progress
s BJJ just Kosen Judo? it s submission wrestling in pyjamas.
Kosen judo is Kodokan judo with different rules. All the techniques are the same.
You can do wrist locks in Kodokan?
@@junon Nope
BJJ: guard.
Kosen: turtle position or laying on your belly, hands on your collar.
Brazilian jujitsu is just judo with different competition rules, as far as the art is concerned it's still judo, I fail to see the difference. sure there is different guards and what not that have developed in jujitsu and a few more submissions but that hardly makes it a new martial art, and most of new submissions high level competitors would never used because meat and potatoes are best and less complicated. if we just went back to training and teaching judo and jujitsu the way they were intended in the beginning they would be a mirror image of each other. it's like comparing club to club in each art, jujitsu clubs can give u a black belt with shitty stand up and judo with shitty ground, but there are clubs that teach it the way its supposed to be in both clubs and when that's done you wouldn't see a difference in either student, so the stereo types about judo and jujitsu is the fault of the teachers because in essence the arts are the same
What guard does jiujitsu have that judo doesn't?
@@teovu5557 ruber guard for one was invented by jujitsu practitioners is one example, but if judo wasn't molested for the Olympics I'm sure it would have been able to evolve organically and we would have seen that kind of thing develop, not saying rubber guard is some mystical thing just an example
Spider guard is another one, mostly 10th planet jujitsu stuff but as far as Gracies go I don't think they invited anything
Spider guard has been around since before I started.
@@KamaJiuJitsu yes judo had a closed spider guard and then jujitsu started using a open so I guess that one was a bad example
Do you know who I am!!!!
Famous videographer?
Cliffs Notes, please. This guy loves to hear himself yap.
#cantpleaseeveryonecanwe
Maybe BJJ should have been called Brazilian Newaza (Evolved Newaza)
The original Kodokan Judo is the parent: Modern Judo, Kosen Judo and BJJ are the children. That is my take. The main differences are the "spirit" behind each child art and what techniques are allowed from the vast array of possible grappling techniques. For example leg locks are banned techniques in competitive Judo but allowed in some BJJ competitions.
Judo & BJJ: same art (besides philosophy), turned into two sports with different emphasis.
Take two teams of wrestlers in two different gyms without contact between them, put a gi on every of them and give them a defined ruleset. Within a few decades, they will come up with the same techniques and transitions. Alter the rules for one of the gyms and suddenly some techniques disappear from training and some behaviours which were previously deemed useless might become the norm under the new man-made rules of the sport.
I like BJJ, I do not like when some BJJers pretend Helio invented the wheel and "made it better for weak people" (while I gladly admit judo newaza training may have become worse with its development as a Olympic sport). The triangle choke was not even a thing in BJJ before the 70's while it existed in judo in the 20's, same thing about the "Ezekiel choke" in the 80's.
Equally, it makes me cringe when I hear a fellow judoka overlooking the ground-fighting skills of BJJ practitioners.
IJF judo is not traditional judo.
No, it’s not.
No competition ruleset MA is the traditional MA it was designed as
Jigaro Kano DID invent one really important thing, namely Randori, or what other people call full contact sparring, which we now know is a must for developing effective techniques. Or actually, he saw what wrestlers, boxers and savateurs had always done The old styles of ju-jitsu he practiced and incorporated into judo almost exclusively practice katas and pre-defined attacks and defences. True Japanese ju-jitsu still do, as preserved in certain families.
And also, I wouldn't say basically just judo today. Far from it. But up until the early 90s it was true, "basically". And there is no BJJ lineage to any japanese ju-jitsu style. Everything comes through the Kodokan and therefore BJJ IS an offshoot of Judo and no "jiu-jitsu" style, with some catch thrown in, but since then they styles have diverged heavily from each other. Whether the name stems from a deliberate naming or it was just the word people outside Japan was used to, I cannot say, but it's confusing. The Gracie myth is extremely widespread within the BJJ community and that is what pisses many judokas off. Brazilian Judo would have been a better name pick TBH.
Kano didnt invented Randori. Just research his life and you will find that he himself had already practiced handori in other jujutsu arts before invented Judo. Sumo guys are others that also did handori way before Judo.
I'm not sure I appreciate using JJ and BJJ interchangeably, JJ also technically includes Judo (as you yourself point out). But outside of that - awesome video, factually accurate, without tribalism and other garbage. I wish there were tournaments that suit my taste in the western world - I'm not into this pinning win (maybe pin causing a submission by the pinned), but the rest sounds great - newaza only/lack of throw KOs make BJJ kinda boring, while classic judo removes the strategic elements of groundplay and tiredness it brings (Rolling with bjj guys is almost as good a cardio as a lethwei sparring lol).
Judo (including Kosen) has standing and ground techniques. BJJ seems to be all about the ground. Hardly a surprise the bjj would or could have better newaza simply because that's where the focus is. BJJ is as much judo as open water swimming is being a triathlete.
IJF judo has ground transitions, NOT really ground fighting. It's a very different concept: newaza is meant to capitalize on an opponent being out of position due to a throw (either taken or narrowly evaded). That means you learn some submissions and some breakdowns (attack the omnipresent turtle, quickly evade a late or poor attempt to block you in half-guard after a landing). But the whole concept of open guard playing AND passing doesn't exist, because the moment you stand up OR away from your opponent it's matte. If you close the guard it's also almost instantly matte. If you pull guard...well you can't. Also, if your opponent forces you to the ground without a valid score (or more typically, you drop to your knees to evade a bad position as judokas often do, let's be honest), you can't even grab your opponent's leg to establish a guard until and unless he chooses to engage into newaza.
So there, basically open guard doesn't exist, and open guard (playing or passing) is like 2/3 of bjj.
@@36424567254 so judo does not have rolling?
@@Supermomo2007 Largely depends on your club, and your definiton of rolling. Mine barely does any "rolling" (which I don't mind since I train it much better in BJJ).
But even when there _is_ newaza, sure you may get a little more time than in an actual judo match, but the rules are still the same. Ofc nothing is stopping your particular club to train differently, but why would they? Most clubs train according to competition rules, because anything else you learn would be wasted time for anyone who competes.
Only exception is techniques required for grading (kata etc), because...they are required for grading, and people want to get graded.
right. same goes for competition BJJ schools. throws/takedowns are only 2 points. better to learn to get to mount/seatbelt, since they are 4 pts.
Judo rules!
kosen judo is the origin of brazilian jujitsu the thing is that jujitsu have evolved very fast the last years due to
the promotion of brazilian jujitsu and technology like internet to spread the new techniques and ways of winning
tournements .
brazilian jujitsu is in a new version than at the starting .
is like to compare the olds cars from the past and the news ones in the futur
Bjj is not kosen, Judo.. Kosen judoka knows how to throw.
One would hope. But they pull guard, too.
So called "BJJ" is nothing else but "ne waza judo"... Period!
I guess you didn’t understand the video. Watch it again butt hurt 😭
@@nstv23 Alot of butthurt JuJOKAS in the comments LOL
BJJ is basically JUDO, lets be real about it. LOL.
lol, in bjj you can be black belt and have a few and very shitty takedowns
True
And in judo they can be a black belt and have a very watered down or as you would say “shitty” ground game
@@wayne47able you both are right. That's why is important to train both.👍
@@wayne47able not kosen judo tho
Insert name here Kosen Judo is not a style but a rule set. The average BJJ world champion would run through an entire Kosen Judo rule set tournament with relative ease.
Wanna really get some Judoka twisted up?
Start talking about Yudo....
EVERYBODY should watch this video and stop these silly "Gracies invented everything" vs "it's just Judo on the butt" claims and arguments.
We just need to drop the "B" that's why ppl get in a snit . Honestly the country doesn't need or deserve credit. It's all just Jiu-jitsu/ ju-jutsu what about how much more advancements have been made in the USA are we going to start calling it American Jiu-jitsu? Because by the logic that some argue that the "B" should be in there. If we want to be efficient with history and naming let's just call it Jiu-jitsu/ ju jutsu or at the very most say "modern Jiu-jitsu " or even western JJ or American JJ (Brazil is south America, usa , canada N America this covers all bases) I'm all for ppl using their last name because that has always been done in whatever country so that makes sense. Plus the B in there is and oxymoron linguistically if ya ask me . So yea not 1 in the same but drop the "B" grandmaster Rickson had right idea drop the B imo even if it wasnt his intention #jjgf. Osu!
i agree with you on this.
Brazilian jujitsu is just judo without ne waza
@GeminiJets37 How is that false look kosen judo
@@darylfields the way you worded that is wrong. It should be Brazilian jiu jitsu is just judo "with emphasis" on newaza. Newaza is the ground game in judo.
@@jayp4772 I respect both but let's face a bjj practitioners look down on judo
@@darylfields without a doubt
@GeminiJets37 I know I just get angry when people say bjj better than judo