How & Why to Corner Weight Your Car (FM Live)
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2020
- This week on FM Live, Keith discusses the benefits of corner weighting and shows us the basics of how to corner weight your car.
Original live video recorded 8-20-20. Join us on Facebook every Thursday at 2:00 PM Mountain Time for new live content!
Flyin' Miata is the world leader in Miata performance. We offer a wide range of parts for all years of the Mazda MX-5 Miata.
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always a good day when fm makes a video
Great explanation Guys, thanks for the content!
Thx for the instructive video! Very informative as a guide to a beginner!
Excellent explanation, thanks.
Grrrrrrrrreat information!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't wait to be able to do it to my Miata!!!! Thanks Again for another Outstanding Video!!!
as a beginner diving into track days and searching for a how to, your explanation is easy to understand.
Pure knowledge. That's why I bought the book from you all.
Thanks for making these.
Thanks. Learned so much.
Fantastic video
excellent presentation
Such a great video!! Thank you!!:)
this is a fantastic video
Great info 👍
Definitely answered all the important questions I had about this!
Glad it was helpful!
Absolutely great content! Thanks guys! 👍
Excellent video. Great job explaining the theory and and then demo-ing in practice. Really brought the concept home for me.
Glad it was helpful!
Best video I’ve seen explain the concept behind corner weight alignment !! Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
One of the best videos I've found on this subject
Thanks for watching! It really is a pretty simple thing.
I used to race 1/8 scale on road rc cars (formula 1 of RC cars) we used a tweek bar which is a 3 point balance system car would be center balanced on the 1point front then the rears left and right would be balanced then flip the tweek bar around so it supports the car on rear center and front left and right are balanced on the balance beam which seemed to work very well
Very helpful. I’ve got the braking problem you described, so this effort is on my list.
Glad it helped! Let us know if you have any questions that weren't covered in the video.
cant imagine doing this with the wheels on. pain in the ass. Great explanation and very easy to follow
This is awesome and needs to get more views!
Very valuable knowledge here
Thank you guys
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If you had access to a wind tunnel put the car on the scales flip the switch ,set the air speed,check, then check the scales for the effect
That would be cool
Super video however what would you do in this case
LF 1137, RF 1156
LR 1042, RR 1061
?
Great job explaining the corner weights. I am looking to put coil overs on my NA. What would you suggest for a streetcar that will be autocross and some track days?
That depends on your budget and how much is street car versus autocross and track days. Flyin' Miata has a few different options from our V-Maxx Classic to the Fox Racing setup seen on this car.
Kindly we try to also balance the corner weight of an rc car but the difference is that we adjust the ride height with what we call them droop screws and to move the weight and try to make the care balance we use the tension of the springs and it seems that it works!
That sounds like it's working well flor you.
@FlyinMiataVideo Today, I tried to balance the rc car with the droop screws ti change the height instead of changing the tension of the springs, and I use plastic rims without a tyre to try to make it to the nearest gram.
I will let you know how it came after I tested because when I put the wheels on, it changed the results!
I keep thinking about how to do this with bathroom scales only. Unless you have 8 scales, you will need to take four measurements.
I think you need to be very careful that the ground is flat. If the scale lifts the wheel by 2", you'd better put 2" spacers under the other three wheels, too. If one wheel has a height error of 1", I guess the weight will read 155 lb too high. (assuming VMaxx coilovers 258 lb/in rear and 391 lb/in front so the spring compresses 0.4" in the front left and 0.6" in the back right.) 1/10" will put you out by 15.5 lb, about 2.7% of one corner's weight or 1.3% of the diagonal.
As for doing it with one scale plus levers, you'd better be very careful to measure those lever lengths right. (And where, exactly is the point of application of the force to the scale top?) Levers sounds like a Gong show.
Very informative video! Thanks for the explanation as well as the demonstration.
So, in order to use the new (latest generation) Paco Motorsports hub system with scales, what size scale is needed? The base of the latest Paco Motorsports hub system is much larger than the ones you used in this video. Longacre sells 12” and 15” scales, so would the 15” scales be required?
We cornerweighted a car last week using the latest generation hub stands and these same scales. The base of the v5 hub stand is 12x12, so the larger scales would be recommended. We’d recommend them anyhow simply for ease of use.
learned so much t hi.
good video.
just did my Camaro today.
not an easy process even with hub stands + a lift.
@3rdGenGuy Thanks for watching! A lift and hub stands certainly make the job easier, but it still won't be a quick and easy job.
@@FlyinMiataVideo
how much ride height change is normal?
I went from about 55% cross weight to 50.7%.(best I could do)
car drives much nicer now.
ride height change:
driver front: unchanged
pass front: dropped 1/8in
pass rear: dropped 1/8in
driver rear: gained 3/16in
Love the video very informative information. Have a question with a solid rear axle with an adjustable Watts suspension. If you change the adjustments will that change or shift the weight
Now that's an interesting question. We don't have much direct experience with Watts links. In theory, if your adjustments are just to things like the height of the pivot, that won't have any effect on static weight distribution. It will likely have an effect when you're actually cornering, but that's a different matter!
@@FlyinMiataVideo the watts link that I have for the pivot it has six positions and for the rod ends it has 6 positions as well for adjustment. I'm leaning towards coilovers instead of the stock 4th gen Camaro arrangement. And this was a thought after seeing your video on adjusting for the weight balance.
@@bobd9911 Those adjustments shouldn't affect static corner balance, they'll come into play when you're moving. The coilovers are what will give you the ability to corner weigh the car.
keith : adjustment tool, thingy.
me : spanner wrench for $500. :P
good video. wish they would do some 124 spider videos.
Many of our videos (like this one!) apply to the Spider. We don't offer any Spider-specific parts nor do we currently have one in our fleet, so our focus on Miatas will likely stay that way for some time.
C7 corvette. Should I focus on setting ride height the exact same as measured from ground per corner over setting shock perches in same starting point? So which one is more important to start with?
The initial perch setting is just to make sure you're in the ballpark as you assemble the car, it will get the cornerweights close and make your life easier. You'll want to level the car relative to the ground. It doesn't have to be the same at each end, but it should be the same side to side.
Awesome and very imformative to those of us with less knowledge. Now where to get scales??????
Summit Racing, Speedway Motors, Jegs and a whole raft of smaller suppliers. Or, if you want to be crazy creative, four scales from Ikea on each corner covered in a piece of plywood to spread the load!
Thanks guys. Keep up the good work.
Great video!! One question. Wouldn't the heavier wheel have less preload which needs it most to supprt and cause rebound?
More weight on the wheel does not change anything do to with the spring. Correct cornerweighting is the same no matter what you have for wheels. You might need to adjust the damping if it's extremely heavy.
We have done a couple of other videos on "preload" and how that's an incorrect way to think of setup.
@@FlyinMiataVideo thanks!! Will look into your other videos.
How often should you worry about getting your corner balancing redone? Is it like an alignment where you should have it checked and adjusted every year, or if no major weight changing mods have been made, do you more or less set and forget until you have issues pointing towards it specifically?
It shouldn't really change. If you have a spectacular off, you might want to double-check, but it's not something that happens with normal use. Also, if you are coil-binding or you notice your ride height changing, you will probably want to confirm it after fixing that problem.
corner weighting is especially important if you're driving a car with a stiff suspension and without ABS on a wet track...
I'm building my car for Northern California canyon roads. I drive very spiritiedly, but stay in my lane. do/should I need to CW the car for driving on the right side of the road? For example right turns equal low right shoulder, maybe a right side dirt drop. Left turn equals high inside of the turn, crest of the road.
Car has poly bushings hd sway mounts, steer rack bushings, frame rails, targa miata type durable set up.
I would still set the car up to be symmetrical. About the only time I'd recommend a staggered setup is oval track racing or perhaps extreme optimization for a specific track. For general road use, you'll have the best luck if it's equally balanced left to right.
Thank you for the video. Is corner balancing something done once or needs to be redone with future modifications. I understand that aero won’t affect it nor alignment as seen in other comments but how about change in springs, going from softer to stiffer front/rear? Would balancing need to be done again?
It should be checked any time you're messing with the springs or shock perches. Changing to a different spring rate will require a perch adjustment to maintain a given ride height, so I'd definitely want to check it again in that case. Ride height changes are another must-do, although if you're careful to keep your adjustments equal on both sides it should stay pretty close. It all depends on how close to perfect you want the car to be.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thanks for the quick reply. That totally makes sense.
Thanks for the video. Are the hood louvers SM legal?
It's unlikely, but you'd have to check the rulebook.
Great video! I just want to ask you one question, would it be easier for you to not remove the sway bar and just corner weighting with the sway bar on because you dont want to mess with the car weighting after you install them back?
The sway bars can mask a cornerweighting problem when the car is at rest so they have to be disconnected. If you set the end links properly, they don't mess with the corner weighting when you reinstall them.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thank you for your response! Didnt expect you to reply to my question 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
If you use adjustable end links / drop links then when you put them back on you adjust the links so they aren't twisting the bar at the new corner ride heights. This means they won't affect the corner weighting when reinstalled. Set each side to a length that bolts up with no pressure needed on the bar.
Edit to add: at 36:17 adjustable end links are covered.
Want to set up for drift. 1991 NA.
Any shock front stiffness 10K vs rear weight 6K recommendations for drifting. Trying to put together my mind on my build.
We’re not all that well versed in drift setup, so hopefully someone in the community can help.
Very interesting Video.
I have just installed a set of Coilovers with independent height Adjustment without changing Spring Preload on my 1994 Miata.
At the beginning I set the right height to the recommended settings (Coilover length), but after a week I noticed that one diagonal is higher than the other (measured from Wheel arch to ground), so I changed ride height so every corner is roughly the same ride height. Was that a bad Idea ? Should I Go back to the same Coilover length on every side even if it means different ride heights (measured From wheel Arch to Ground)
Will I even be able to feel the difference on spirited driving on mountain roads ?
By "independent height adjustment" you mean a two-piece shock that can be adjusted to different lengths. Both the perch location and the shock body length will affect the ride height. So the first step is to make sure that both of those are consistent side to side. If they are, then it's time to look at the free length of the springs to make sure they're consistent. If you're measuring to the ground, make sure all your tire pressures are set as well.
Note that you cannot have one diagonal higher than the other unless your car is bent or is not sitting on a level surface. You can have one high end or one high side, but you can't have opposite corners being higher than the other two corners. That would require the car to be bent in the middle.
Generally, an NA or NB is set up with about 1/2" more rear height than front, measuring at the fender.
Also, if you've not seen our other videos: ignore spring preload. It's not really a tuning tool. It's a side effect. Set your shock length for maximum bump travel, then set your spring perch to get the ride height you want. If you set the shock length to anything else, you will be compromising your suspension setup.
@@FlyinMiataVideo thanks for the quick answer, I’ve set the perch location to the recommended setting, but I will check that again, maybe I did a mistake there, if not it might just be the tire pressure, or uneven ground. Hopefully that solves my problem, but I’m pretty sure I measured the opposite corners Being higher, but you are right, that shouldn’t be possible
@@FlyinMiataVideo thanks again seems like I took wrong measurements, now she sits nearly perfect. I find your Videos really helpful and interesting so keep on doin what you do. Really looking forward to buying FM Sway Bars and End Links, too bad there are out of stock now 😞.
My front-left tire always lock-up first, is it because the diagonal front-right/rear-left is too high?
Quite possibly, yes.
With coilovers with separate height and preload adjustment, would corner weighting be done only with preload adjustment? Assuming ride height is already dialed in.
Yes. See our other videos about preload. Use the shock length adjustment to set your range of motion, then use the perch height to adjust corner weighting and ride height.
I have a question about adjustable end links. 1) how do you know if you need them? My understanding is that to set sway bars up, you should end up with front & back bars being level to the ground. Is this right? If not, where am I wrong?
The ideal starting point for sway bars is for the "arms" to extend almost parallel with the ground in a neutral position. If you have lowered your car, plan on lowering your car, or need to corner balance your car you will probably need them.
How much does corner balancing with the front sway bar connected really affect end results?
The sway bar can transfer load from one side to the other if it has any preload in it, so it can end up fighting against the springs across the axle.
Kindly what are the best corner weight results? For example, you make the diagonal wheels of both sides the same or rear front wheels equal weight to go in a straight line.
We use powerful motors that we go 0 to 100km in about 1.5 seconds and we want it to go straight as much as possible!
We are usually more interested in cornering and handling than pure straight line acceleration. It’s a good question. It’s quite possible that you’d benefit more from equalizing the driving wheel weights instead of the cross weights for your use due to your extreme power/weight.
@FlyinMiataVideo the rc car is four wheel drive and we use thick silicone oil in the front diff and bit lighter at the back and we eliminate the third differential from the middle so we try to have all the power to all four wheels, even using stronger springs and Dumpers to try to keep the car straight when accelerating.
I already managed to do 0 to 100km/ h in 1.59sec and 40m in 1.98sec with a small 8s motor! Meanwhile if the car is not balanced it will not hold a straight line because it will spin more the one with less weight.
We always try to improve and we reached a point were it us difficult to handle the car in a straight line due to bigger motors with more power.
I did not see or hear you explain or demonstrate your practical demonstration with the weight of a common driver in the seat.
You balance the car in the state you want it to perform best. This particular car almost always has a passenger, so weighting just one seat would not be appropriate.
Actually adding weight to the seat is a simple matter. You can even use the actual driver if you'd like as long as they don't squirm around too much when you're taking measurements. Once you've got that weight in place, the procedure is the same.
When would you do the corner balance with driver in the car?
When you have a driver that can sit still and you want the car to be optimally balanced with one occupant. You can also put weight in the driver's seat if you don't have the first requirement.
How much will height change when tweaking via the spring perch? If more than 1/4” and you decide to correct height using lower mounts will that affect the weight?
I'm not sure I follow the question. In almost every case, you set the car up to get maximum compression travel as limited by the suspension kinematics. Then you adjust the perch heights and spring lengths to get the ride height you're looking for. Then you do the fine-tuning of the perch positions to get the corner weights correct, which was the goal in this video.
The ride height change depends on the motion ratio of the car. An ND will change a different amount than an NA because of their different suspension geometry.
My question my car jacks down in a long sweeping turn on the rear under full accel its a 1620kg fwd mk4 focus st estate with kw v3 coilovers does this eliminate my issue its been set equal ride hight kind regards bart
This sounds like weight transfer (body roll) that could benefit from sway bars or a suspension that needs some tuning or adjustment, but without a lot more detail it is hard to know for sure. We're also not experts on that platform, but a lot of the same theory should apply.
@@FlyinMiataVideo its gonna be put on the scales in july hopeit gets sorted out other wise im forced to get stiffer arb's thx for your reply
Great video and demo. I missed it live, but have a question. Do you do cross weight adjustments before alignment (or after?!?). Or are the two processes independent. Thanks!
I’d say before if I were to guess. The alignment won’t affect your height, but corner weighting can affect the height if you aren’t careful. Adjusting the height of the coilover will affect the camber.
@@WTFibangdrums If you do it right, corner weighting will not affect your height. Watch the video :) So you can do the two independently of each other if you do them well.
Flyin' Miata oh I did. I’ve been curious about corner weighting for awhile. I didn’t know how much the strut/shock height even if same relative ride height would affect camber movement, and that’s more what I was trying to relay.
@@WTFibangdrums It's the actual ride height that's going to affect camber, not how much load that corner is carrying.
Flyin' Miata that answers it. Thank you!
What you call the jack stand in the video?
Hub stands from Paco Motorsports.
www.flyinmiata.com/default/paco-motorsports-hub-stands-version-5.html
I had the understanding that driver weight should be added when doing corner weight. this would be for spec Miata setup. comment please.
As noted in the video, you want the car to be as close as possible to your "ideal state" when doing suspension setup. However, this is a demonstration of the process and this car rarely runs without a passenger anyhow.
@@FlyinMiataVideo my bad, Thanks for the reply
Can you corner weight with one scale?
Have 3x platforms the same height as the scale (making the car level) drive onto the scale and platforms, record data, drive off, move scales to another wheel and repeat?
Crazy?
High effort, but it sounds plausible.
@@FlyinMiataVideo great! Low cost but high effort suits me because I'll likely only do it once.
Thanks for replying!
These videos are super helpful!
Not sure if i missed it but was there a target front to rear percentage. Or just the 50 percent cross?
To change front/ rear, you need to physically move masses in the car. Like the battery.
@FlyinMiataVideo i get that. I mean like in karting we run 43 percent front weight 57 percent rear (as a starting point) then 50/50 side to side and cross. Im guess a front engine car is going to be different and just want a starting point for front to rear. Or do i only need to worry about left right and / or cross?
@@erikanovember9485 In karting, you're probably adjusting that weight using ballast or maybe even moving the driver. There aren't as many easily moveable weights in a car, so mostly front/rear just is what it is.
Hi...i like the black car in the back ground...awesome...what car is that?
That's Keith's custom built MGB-GT V8!
That’s Keith’s 400 hp MGB GT. We have a tour of it on our channel.
When I don't have a possibility to weight the car, I should be able to corner weight the car by measuering the compression of the springs, right?
Technically, yes. But they’d have to be very precise measurements and you’d have to have very consistent springs. The softer the spring rate, the better it would work.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thank you for your reply. A great show by the way. It is rare to find high quality information on CZcams on such topics.
NA with 1.8 upgrade what weight can be removed?
It all depends on what you're willing to live without. A heater? Stereo? Top? Windshield? Padding on your seat?
With weighted drivers seat?
Optional depending on how you want the car to be optimized. If you're setting up to run with a passenger most of a time, you'd leave the seats empty. With the position of the driver in a Miata, the corner weights don't really shift that much. In a car where the driver is very close to one axle, you'll see a greater effect.
I didn't see if you leveled your scales. If not you will not get an accurate reading
Hello, You forgot to add weights on the driver seat to simulate the weight of the driver.
If you only drive the car with a solo driver, that's appropriate. If you usually have two people on board, that's not necessary. This car is set up that way because that's how it's operated. Basically, put the car on the scales in the condition you want to be optimized.
Coner weight first or alignment
Both
I just took my ND2 to get corner balanced and ended up at a 49% cross weight with me in the car, but the ride height was all over the place. I came in with a static height of 13" front and 13.5" rear and left with LF: 13.75", RF: 13.5", LR: 14.06", and RR: 13.38". Should the mechanic be able to get close to my desired ride height and get the car close to a 50% cross weight? Also, how much would I, a novice track driver with only 2 track days, notice the cross weight being off by 1% or 5% or 10%?
Yes, the mechanic definitely should have been able to corner weight the car without messing up the ride height. The procedure is detailed in the video.
The place that inaccurate cornerweights show up most obviously is under braking. You'd find that your ABS is engaging earlier than it should - but that can be hard to determine as opposed to a non-ABS car obviously locking the same wheel over and over. You'd probably notice some asymmetrical handling characteristics at 10% and 5% off. At 1%, it's pretty unlikely.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thanks! Would you recommend starting with getting the ride height correct and then attempting to corner balance the car? Should the coilovers (perch to perch) typically be equal in length side to side at the front and rear, respectively (e.g. X" long on both rears and Y" on both fronts)?
@@tomgawel8518 Yes, that's the first step. Get in the ballpark by setting the coilover perches equal side to side then fine-tune it where you want it to be, then go for the cornerweight.
@@FlyinMiataVideo I had them take another shot. Balance w/ driver ended up at 49.8%. Static ride height w/o driver ended up LF: 12.75", RF: 12.94", LR: 13.63", RR: 13.38". Closer to what I was shooting for from a ride height perspective and marginally better balance. Handled great at the track, but I did notice some very slight rub marks on the plastic front fender linings after I got back home. If I understood your video correctly, I would be able to raise both front sides by an equal amount (e.g. 1/8") and the balance should remain unchanged, correct?
@@tomgawel8518 Raising both sides by the same amount should have no effect on the balance. However, raising the car won't prevent rubbing. It might decrease the frequency of it, but if you want to prevent it you need to either limit the suspension travel or you need to move things out of the way. For example, a different alignment or (more likely) some fender rolling.
Who.. the hell... downvoted this.. I'll take you all on at once lol.
What is the black car in the back right? MGB GT?
On the outside. On the inside, it’s basically a 400 hp Camaro with a Miata front end. There’s a tour of it on our channel.
@@FlyinMiataVideo oh snap! I known what video to look for now!
There we go. Saved to watchlist. I have always wondered if you could do a body swap on the MGBGT onto the Miata skeleton.
Does alignment matter before or after?
You should set your ride height before alignment and corner weight, but corner weighting can be done before or after alignment. There is some theoretical crossover between the two processes but in reality it’s lost in the margin of error most of the time.
@@FlyinMiataVideo ok. Thank you. My ride height is already set but I want to get an alignment on my Ariel Atom. Just didn’t know which I should get first. My Atom is all exposed and weights 1400 pounds so I can adjust everything without taking the wheel off.
Travis may need to wear a mic when he reads the question.
Our solution there is to have Keith repeat the question.
You have to sit in the car right???
Not necessarily. If you're setting the car up for two people, you'll get the same results if it's empty. You can also put weight in the driver's seat. If you do use a human as ballast, they have to sit still when you're measuring the weights.
Why is it so heavy?! My caged na weights 1950
I'm pretty sure it has either an LS3 or an L33
Which also obviously means trans + rear end + etc are heavier
It's an LS3, plus everything else you need to make the drivetrain bombproof with over 450 hp at the wheels. It's also fully weatherproof and wears a bunch of skid plates underneath from when it was a rally car. This thing is built like an anvil because its job is to take abuse. It's also road legal.