Alignment Basics (FM Live)
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2020
- This week on FM Live, Keith goes over the basics of Alignment Theory! Learn the essentials about alignment angles and how they effect your car's handling.
Original live video recorded 8-27-20. Join us every Thursday on Facebook at 2:00 PM Mountain Time for new live content! This is a quick overview video to inform our customers, and is not intended to be a guide or installation tutorial of any kind.
Flyin' Miata is the world leader in Miata performance. We offer a wide range of parts for all years of the Mazda MX-5 Miata.
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I'm an rx8 owner, but still love this channel for its content!
We appreciate it!
@FlyinMiataVideo no problem. There is a lot of cross over. If I'm not mistaken the NC borrowes it suspension from the Rx8
Keith - Thank You & the staff at FM for doing these videos!!! I've learned quite a bit from them.
Good, that's the goal!
Omg, i would love to sit down at a party and pick your brain! I think that is THE most interesting thing to do. Learn learn learn.
Thanks Again for another informative video!!! I'm Learning a Lot with each. Best Always, Chris
Thanks for the video Keith, I wish I had seen your video a lot earlier. I drove my stock ND to twisty roads, mountain togues and short track day, pretty normal steps to learn and get use to its dynamics. After 2 months when I was changing a new set of tire and wheels, the mechanic told me my alignment was a disaster. lol we cant believe it but its true, seems the factory really have a wide acceptance range on their alignment. Truly like you said, I would highly recommend everybody to check their alignment the first thing when they got their Miata.
Im watching this video three days after buying my nb preparing to tell the alignment shop what i want lol. Such good info. Im lucky i live 15 minutes from fm too
Very Informational - And I'm just trying to do an alignment on my Hummer H1. Time to do some SCCA Autocrossing :) thanks Keith and team! Subscribed.
Just watched. Thank you for filming and passing on your knowledge on alignments. I hope you post a sequel that explains rear wheel alignment.
This video does cover rear wheel alignment. It's basically the same as the front but caster is not involved because the wheels don't steer.
Hi Keith, I am VERY impressed and I know now who I am going to want to talk to about aAlignment. I watched the sway bar video and the corner weighting video yesterday, and today the alignment video. My Miata’s wet NAs (93 and 96) and now an ND2 (2021). In between the 96 and the 2021, I drove a C5 and a C6 (Z06), (and loved both of those Vettes, but not as much as I have loved the Miatas because of the more hands-on interaction).
You guys rock.
FM: I am installing Fox coils soon on my NB, I am planning to take the car for an alignment after that. I was thinking of replacing my eccentric bolts to make it easier on the alignment shop - so they don't have to deal with any bolt drama.
Is it possible to replace the eccentrics one by one and not slip my alignment? My gut tells me no... but thought I would ask.
Maybe instead I just break each bolt loose and re-torque it in the garage so that I know none are seized up?
Thank you for all the content, these videos have caused me to spend SO much money at FM this year - lol
Alignment settings for NC (2014) stock everything for the best handling daily drive front and back please.
Thanks
Would you please specify the setting numbers for NC please?
Thanks
Thank you for creating this and other informative videos! I live in California and have an nd2 rf. I’m wondering, have you addressed the varying corner heights for an nd2 on video?? Specifically, the front right sitting higher than the left, and rear being off as well?
We didn't realize this was a widespread issue. The NDs we have access to are nearly identical left to right, with any subtle difference being negligible. We have a video on corner balancing that may help answer your questions, or feel free to reach out to our customer support team directly. They'll be more than happy to discuss and help if your ND has issues.
I bought a 1994 Mazda Miata a few Months ago. Its completely Stock and im Pretty sure i have pos camber up Front (Not a lot but u can tell by looking at it and measuring with a Spirit level), im also pretty sure its about the same amount. Do i have to worry about it having Bend Suspension or is it Just badly aligned? Because you Said something about pos camber on a Miata its broken?
When i lower it (with Good coilovers) and do an alignment afterwards it shoudnt be a big problem ? Am i Right?
I have a new ND RF, 2000km at the moment, and I noticed today that the rear left wheel seems to have more negative camber than the rear right. I checked the camber bolts, and they turn out to have a different setting, the right one is pointing straight up, and the left one is off by 2 notches. Is this something they do at the factory to compensate for tiny manufacturing differences, and/or does it have to do with break-in of my suspension (all the weight on the left side, I'm the only person in the car) and will it balance out after a few more weeks of driving? Can't really find an answer on the forums...
Congrats on the new car! We'd recommend you take it in for a precise alignment no matter what. It really should be part of buying a new car. Mazda sets the cams to approximately the middle, which means it's within a fairly loose definition acceptable - but as you can see, it's definitely loose. There's no break-in period required.
We have some recommended alignment settings on our site: help.flyinmiata.com/en_us/align-your-suspension-chakras-By4oIc2zj
Thanks for the video !
I'm about to get the alignment done on my NB with your setting (car equiped with the KONI, FM Springs & swaybars, etc..).
I was just wondering if the car has to be with the driver in it, maybe with the tank full, etc.. during the alignment or not ?
Or maybe the difference of weight is not that significant ?
Thanks for you reply !
For the most accurate alignment, you really should have the driver, or comparable weight, in the driver's seat, but most alignment shops won't allow you to sit in the car while the alignment is done. Unless you are tracking the car, you probably won't notice a huge difference with no weight in the car.
At about 9 minutes, you mention that adding camber in the rear will cause oversteer. That sounds backwards compared to what you said right before that. Can you clarify?
Thanks. My NA6 has a stock set up but is about an inch, nearly 3cm, lower on the RHR (Driver) compared to LHR. I've checked the top hats from to the top in the boot, and there is no noticeable rubber collapse. Suggestions on the cause on the sag, and what I should look for/measure to locate the cause of the sag? thanks heaps. PS: this is measuring from the ground BTW, not centre of hub, to apex of wheel arch
Given the RHD reference - are you in the UK? I'd start by looking for a rusted and broken spring. The UK does not have a kind climate for steel.
Thnx
Not UK, Australia 😆
Tho i can see a bit of sag, i did some accurate measuring from hub to arch and difference is just nudging 10mm, which is just within OEM spec i believe. Unfortunately we get spare wheel and Batt on our Driver (sag) side ... maybe just normal spring variation over 30 years???
@@alexmessina3383 I meant no offense! ;)
In the MG world, asymmetrical spring sag like that is called "the bachelor lean". It's quite possible that's what is going on. You could try swapping the spring/shock assemblies side to side, but after this many years it may be time to consider new springs.
Yes. Funnily, Im looking at an MGB at the moment. Plastic bumpers tho.
Offended?? What can i do if 90% of the world keeps putting the steering wheel on the wrong side.
Dont even talk about driving side. Ladt yime i was driving in LA & NY i think i was declared a threat to the National Interest.
You mentioned the wide variety of alignment settings from the factory and to have it checked-I’ve got 250 miles on my new, bone stock, 2020/RF/Club/mt/MX-5, used for in-town and fairly aggressive canyon driving (therapy). Do you have a preferred alignment set-up for this type of street use?
We do! We recommend running the maximum camber and caster you can reach on the front, the matching the rear camber to that number. Slight toe-in in the rear. And congrats on the new car!
Flyin' Miata: Thank you-Loving this car! Put your door bushings in just to try something. What would be a slight toe-in be in degrees? Also, thank you for your videos!
@@watercooled8105 We usually recommend 0.15° total, or 0.075° per side.
Is the effect of camber, toe and caster greater on stock suspension (stock shocks springs sway bars) than on tighter aftermarket suspension? Would you recommend playing with these suspension elements even if I have stock suspension?
A stock suspension generally moves through a greater range of motion during use, so proper static alignment is arguably even more important. We recommend a good alignment no matter what suspension you have.
Can you recommend a tire replacement for my NB (205/50r15 or 195/50r15) for year around daily use? I will be driving in cold temps less than 45f at times, but not in snow. I’m hesitate to put summer tires on my car due to driving below 50f .
Tire Rack sells a Sumitomo HTR A/S PO2 tire in a 195/60/15 that is a FANTASTIC daily/spirited driving tire that I have used for years and absolutely love them. It's a bit larger rolling diameter tire (in this size- about 24.something inches), but this helps bring down the top gear highway rpms a bit. Worth a consideration for the price!
@@pauljohnson7382 I’ll check them out thanks
It's been far too long since I heard the term "Dave Point". I miss the 'ol SCC mags.
Congrats to him though, last I knew he was a higher-up at Mazda. "Vehicle Dynamics Manager" or something.
Canyons here in NorCal have a little bit of everything, elevation changes and sometimes harder to read sudden turns. Car feels a little twitchy in the rear and unstable under braking. Would Toe out in the rear help stabilize this?? Maybe increase dampening in the front?
Canyon Car (Targa Miata Inspired) 2003 NB (Engine Stock w/ intake
FM V-Maxx XXtreme Stage 2 Sport package suspension kit (with bars).
Poly Bushings (all), BAUER extended lower ball joints. Alignment set to zero all around.
15x7 +35s and 205/50/15s
What canyons are you running? I'm a little past sac and I usually go on 193 and 49 / Salmon Falls, but any other places would be good to know
@15:15 I recently bought a 2017 ND1 Soft top. It had a horrible on-center feel, making it hard to drive straight at high speed. Just had alignment done as per Flying Miata specs. I can feel the self-catering has improved but continue to experience the sticky/stiff on-center steering wheel feel. Do you have any suggestions?
A vague on-center feel is unfortunately a feature of the 16-17 soft top steering racks. A 17 RF or 18-22 soft top rack should bolt in and give a nice improvement. Other than good tires and a good alignment, we don’t have a lot of other suggestions.
@@FlyinMiataVideo thank you for the reply 🙏, is there any electronic configuration need to be done following the replacement? I think I read that the ECU self-learns (calibrates) steering position. Also, have you seen many people do this swap for the same reason or are they just putting up with it? It’s a safety concern in my opinion 🤷🏻♂️
How does castor affect toe curve
In Nascar's Cup series, I see pit crew put a wrench in the rear window to make an adjustment. What are they doing?
I believe they're adjusting the track-bar.
@@patrickfargie1146 Thanks. How does the track bar affect alignment?
Also known as the Panhard bar, it's part of what locates a solid axle in a NASCAR suspension. Adjusting it allows you to mess with the roll center and thus the handling balance.
Miatas don't have one. There are probably a handful of Miatas that have been converted to a solid rear axle as part of a V8 swap, but they're very rare and the only reason we mention it is because otherwise someone else will pop up and start talking about theirs :)
Another question: Im living for spirited driving on twisted Mountain Passes/Roads ( in germany we call it Landstraße). But I have to Daily it Every other day because a Student like i am Can only afford one Car.
Should i Go max camber at Front and align the rear same? Or More Rear camber Like Factory spec.
My Car is still a 94 Miata 1.8l
That alignment recommendation was for the ND model specifically. For the earlier cars, we have specific recommendations on our website.
@@FlyinMiataVideo ok thanks for the quick answer
hi is it possible to do the proper caster with 2016 st Miata without changing the rack ? thanks
Definitely. You never have to change the rack to get a proper alignment.
Wheel spacers also affect Roll Centre, a tiny bit.
What are the Flying Miata alignment specs? For not a race car.
Depends on the year of the Miata. They can be found in the technical section of our website.
@@FlyinMiataVideo sick.
Very informative! ButTravis needs a microphone... 🤭😎😉
Which alignment should I use on the Autobahn with my CAN NA HZ Miata ;)
Could you share some alignment recommendations for drifting? (Car is an NB 1.8 sport with a fully adjustable coilover suspension).I know for sure maximum caster is a must. What about the other parameters?
We don't really know much about the requirements for a good drift setup, sorry. At least you're not worried about long-term tire wear :)
You look great in lab coat!
This guy is stupid smart yo.
Can you go a bit more in-depth as to why toe in is more stable in the front?
In both toe in and toe out, once you perturb the front wheels such that one of the wheels straightens out, the other tire will always “win out” by inducing a yaw moment which is not counteracted by the wheel on the opposite side.
Toe In (perturbation causing steering to the left)
Front
| \
| |
Rear
Toe Out (Perturbation causing steering to the left)
Front
\ |
| |
Rear
In both cases the perturbation is not counteracted by anything. Yes the toe-out car has a bit more Ackerman angle so it’s all else equal easier/willing to turn than the toe-in car but that cant be the reason for small perturbations which is by definition what stability means (the Ackerman itself doesn’t cause the steering to “want” to return to center)
Finally if you use the above example, you can see the toe-in car has the right front wheel turning left which is the tire that’s going to get loaded more in a left turn, which if anything, the dynamic load transfer of toe-in setup creates a positive feedback loop which should make stability WORSE.
Imagine a toe-in car where the left front wheel hit a patch of ice/sand, now your front left tire provides no/less traction and your front right tire makes your car turn left, loading up your front right tire even more, causing the yaw to increase (the toe out car would cause your car to yaw right, marginally unloading your front right tire, and hopefully helping your left front tire regain traction, straightening yourself out)
This is my logic and given it’s opposite to literally every single source i can find, there must be something wrong ... i just cant figure out where it is for my life.
Edit*: The only thing I can think of is that for toe in, you get the slip angle imparted drag offsetting the yaw imparted by the perturbation itself. It’s hard to intuitively tell which effect is bigger or if they’re even close to the same magnitude.
Edit2*: grammar in main body
Can you go into more detail on the scenario you're imagining? E.g. is a car driving on a straight road and one wheel hits a bump and is compressed? Or are you thinking about steering turn-in?
In either case I think this is where tyre physics starts to get a whole lot more nuanced. You might need to consider factors like tyre load (weight force) impacting lateral forces. The outside tyre in a turn will have more load, and thus might contribute more force etc
Sam Douglas
The perturbation could be induced by anything. Let’s just say turn in (driver input) to eliminate confounding factors like bumpsteer.
So for both toe in and toe out cars, it takes a certain amount of steering angle to “straighten out” one of the wheels. If the cars were both setup with equal amount (but opposite direction) toe, the amount of steering input required for this is the same.
Now the car has three wheels tracking straight and only one wheel wanting to initiate a turn, and whether that’s the front inside tire or outside tire at turn in doesn’t make much difference in my mind intuitively speaking in regards to the car’s inherent “willingness” to turn.
Furthermore, I outlined an example above where two identical cars with opposite toe settings running straight down a road but subsequently hits a patch of sand/ice on their front left wheel leading to momentary reduced grip. The toe out car will now experience a yaw to the right ( it’s front right tire “wants” to turn the car to the right which WAS counteracted by the toe out on the front left tire, but due to the ice/sand the force is now imbalanced. The yaw will cause load transfer to the outside (left) wheels which serve to mitigate the original imbalance.
In a toe in car the opposite happens, there is a positive feedback loop causing the initial disturbance to increase.
In my edit above I mentioned a possible differential in slip angle induced drag but I’m not convinced this can have a big effect given the small toe settings used in practice.
I’ve been racking my head around this problem basically ever since I heard people say toe in at the front is more stable/toe out more twitchy (many many many years ago) so would really like to pick an expert’s brain on this matter.
Edit1*: Added some stuff
@@DominicLeung87 What you are saying makes sense, but that would only apply if you run a really high amount of toe. In real world, people run tiny amounts of toe which wouldn't lead to any noticeable weight transfer or changes in direction. With those toe settings, other factors like tire flex and suspension flex play a much bigger role in car stability. Basically the car suspension and tires are extremely complex and a lot of times it's really difficult to understand why a certain change makes a car more/less stable. It's just generally accepted that on most vehicles toe-in equals stability and toe-out gives better turn-in.
@@vicciu3850 yeah figured it would be something like that
Just because something works in a free body diagram doesn't equate to it being true in real life
What I am interested in is that given we know toe in front setups tend to be more stable, what is the mechanism behind it?
Many of the "explanations" commonly given are just wrong
(with toe in the tires fight each other... Well with toe out they fight each other as well)
(Ackerman geometry makes the car more willing to turn in... Really 1 or 2 degrees of Ackerman is responsible for this?)
@@DominicLeung87 I totally agree. Most internet explanations on this topic don't make much sense to me either. I think that the only way you'll get a good answer on this topic is by talking to someone who's actually designing/tuning performance vehicles.
he _or she_ wins lul