What Is Corner Balancing and Why Your Car Needs It
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- What Is Corner Balancing? After installing and adjusting coilovers on the GTI, I had an Alignment done AND the car corner balanced. But what does it mean to corner balance a car? Why might you need to corner balance your car? Will a corner balance make your car drive better? Will corner balancing make your car faster on the track? Today we look at all of that and more. The cost for corner balance and an alignment will depend on the location and the amount of work needed to get your corner balance right.
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I remember back in Automotive School, we played around with corner-balancing a stock vehicle by adding weight at each corner, and it's incredible how noticeable a difference it made to how the car drove just around town.
it really is.
What school
then just fold a little pice of paper and put it under the wheel
nahuel luna 😂😂😂😂
yep , that'll work
Didn't even know corner balancing was a thing ...thanks
Thanks for watching! Corner Balancing is a pretty awesome process. If you liked the video, let me know, and give it a share!
Does a new car (unmodified) have a perfect 50/50?
Probably close.
Does a vehicle that is very far out of corner balancing (say 75/25) have symptoms similar to that of standard wheel balancing? Such as vibration in seat or steering wheel?
The factory specification for aligning most VW'S was 150lbs in the drivers seat and a full tank of gas. I loved the look on a customers face when I told the they needed a full tank before performing an alignment. I think they thought I had a deal with the gas station accross the street. lol! I would print out the procedure for them, Though it generally didnt satisfy them. Our shop was too cheap to spend the money on the scales.
Well explained and easy to understand. Great job.
Never heard of this but it makes so much sense. I always knew that having the driver front coil over sit about a thread or 2 would help keep the car level when you are in the driver seat for the car to be level.
Thank you very much for making this video. This really helps me out with making plans for my 2002 Jetta vr6.
That was a good demonstration of the the process. You nailed the balance pretty darn close, nice job.
Thanks!
this helped clarify my questions re: corner balancing. thanks for sharing.
That was actually a great way of explaining balancing thanks.
Although my build is finished on VR6 turbo corrado. I enjoyed binge watching your channel. Awesome work!
Thank you.
I highly recommend Automotive Performance & Chassis if you're in the Raleigh - Durham area. I've had work done on a few different cars and I've always been impressed.
Super, keep on going with the good work!
Thanks for showing our products in good light!
I think my car needs this. It feels less stable than before the coilovers were installed when taking a sweeping corner at 70mph. I can fit two fingers in the rear, but only one in the front so I know for sure the rear needs to be lowered.
Great explanation Charles, now we gotta get you to the track. :)
liked and subscribed, thank you for the video upload
Man so many knowledge
Very cool need a shop like that where I live 👍
The Vr is looking sweet as great work
Thank you
Thanks!
I take my Miata here. Nick is a great dude and has taken care of me every time.
Agree!!!
hi Keith, very nicely done... I am going to get my car corner weighted in a couple of weeks... should have done this years ago.... it is a 83 XJS now weighing around 3,200 lbs....What would you reccomend for alignment I have about 2.5 degrees camber, 3/8 inch toe out and about 3 degrees castor.. the car is used for tight courses primarily, and has been very sucessfull over the years, the car is somewhat lowered and lightened as much as possible with a V12 6.0 up front.. I usually run pirelli or hoosier slicks about a foot wide...biggest problem is getting round one spin cone at Portland International, it is quite tight for a biggish car. I only have adjustable coil overs at the rear, should I try and get a front set ? I also have a set of Spax 13 position competition shocks six in total, as the rear as you probably know use four..Many thanks for doing this very informative video, Art.
Love the wobbly table.
Right! Such an easy way to understand it
Once you said cary NC was close I subcribed👍🏾👍🏾💪🏾
Hell yes
Good video
Thanks :)
Hey, great video. What is the cost for this?
So if the spring rates are accurate we could basically measure the wheel from the arch distance and get it pretty close like you did? And set the front back by handling I guess. Would love to see a Jerry riged version of this, like a normal scale with a lever or something :)
For corner balancing, does the shop also adjust the level of coil over? Thanks.
Hey 2015 Jetta tdi. With a generic code reader got a p13d7. Car ran fine to work started when I left and check engine light. Checked with code reader when got home. Still looking for a vagcom guess now I gotta get serious.
wow dude, came to learn about corner balancing, found out you live right down the road from me lol
Nice!!!
was thinking of joining the crew member ship and was wondering if u had a VW/Audi training manual on the vr6 engine? btw keep up the good work love seeing all the work done on your Gti.
I don’t think we have anything on the VR..
sad day would love to have one for the vr6 u happen to know if theirs one for the 2.7t b5 s4
Lots of mention of VIR and tracking in the vid. You've got power, corner balancing, and soon a BBK, does that mean track time in the future???? I'd love to run into you at VIR one track weekend!
Where do I find a local place to do this? Northern New Hampshire, we have 2 places that do alignments and they're the old school method. I really want to do this when I get coil-overs. Guess I'm taking the 3 hour drive to Boston?
I found this place by just a google search. But it turned out I knew a guy that worked there, and my buddies recommended them.
Im putting carbon fiber body parts on my car is corner balanced needed for the less weight?
I wonder how new factory cars are set up. I just bought a 2018 cx-9 and is it already set up for the best corning?
It should be universally set up. Meaning it may not be set up for the best cornering or going around a track, but the beat overalldriving.
Hi mate. We are suspension setup specialist from Malaysia.
Just want to share our own experience.
Few years back we have a customer did this kind of balancing at some other place in my country doing what you’re doing. He took their car to test on Sepang International Circuit and getting as fast as 03minute 15second per round.
He then try our formula of suspension tuning.
After couple months, one of his teammates contacted us to let us know that now he can get 03minutes 00second sharps per round.
Since then, we knew that our formula is practical for race & on the road driving.
We need to practically understand how the centrepetal force works on the vehicle.
There is no way we can fix the amount of force generated on each cornering since there’s alot of variable parameters such as the speed, the distance and time to transfer the load from rear to front vise versa, left to right, etc.
Its acceptable if the circuit was like a velodrome and it’s only one car running inside the circuit.
But it’s not.
Ideally the Force = Mass * Velocity. But since it’s related to a curve, it became F=MVCos°
Even the jockey can’t fix the angle of cornering, then how it going to fix the amount Centrepetal Force.
We have tuned number of vehicles and having the consistent results on handling. It’s about formula. We didn’t and will never use this machine to “balance the weight “.
Plus, there is Sprung & Unsprung Mass. how can we ignore this factors and simply put it under one kind of weight. It weird.
We have FB & IG name Get It Tuned. You may follow our page if you this our explanation is make sense.
Thanks.
That is great, and not something most people are going to do
Didn't think unsprung weight effected corner balance? (brakes/wheels/tires/hubs/kunckles/etc) ???
Any videos on adjusting sway bar endlinks ??
Not yet. But I may do one on the R32s at some point
What if you wanted a 1-2 degrees rake
Interesting topic. It's very close but weren't they going for 50/50?
If it was a car I was trying to win races with, 50/50 would be worth it. For a street car this is a great balance
Hi i drive a mk4 ford focus st igot kw v3 coilovers on it but my issue is when on full accel taking a long turn the car starts to jack down on the rear its balenced out really good but just made a call for it to get the car on scales this is by far not plezant to drive hope the dude can fix it 🤞
*That Latte... throws the weight off... tisk tisk tisk.*
No it’s centered in the car and now accounted for. So I always have to have it. Ool
So Basic!
It’s true.
That latte is worth like 450 calories. You needed to add another 10 pounder to that seat after you consumed it.
The funny thing is, the only reason I stopped for it was because it was super cold that am.
Where or how can i find the weight required for my car and tires
I know this is an old video, but I will be installing a set of coilovers soon and was wondering where I can get my car corner balanced? What places offer this service, or how can I find a place that does?
Many alignment specialists do. I’d recommend finding a shop that does racecar things. They usually do
Thank you for the explanation. So to be clear, raising the ride height on a corner will INCREASE the weight on it and the opposite corner? Is that correct?
I think it is. But particularly, it’s picking up the lowest weighted corner and then increase its ride height.
@@ChesterHsu Yes, thank you. That is my understanding too. There are so many opinions but no definitive answers. I tried to imagine doing the "Wheelbarrow race" where a friend picks up your legs and you have to walk on your hands. The higher they lifted your legs the harder it was. Remember?
Is corner balancing a thing if I just change out shocks in a non-coilover setup?
No just do a swap. Alignment is a good idea too
Wonder what's the cost to do that 50 50 adjustment. Good video.
It will all depend on how much adjustment is needed. It can be as simple and easy as a 1/4 turn on one leg, or take hours. I was planning for about $200, but since it was so close it wasn't needed.
HumbleMechanic OK understood.
We charge $100 for basic 4-wheel performance alignment.
$150 for basic 4-wheel performance alignment w/simple scale corner balance/cross weight adjustment and first hour of alignment/adjustment labor/time,
Plus $100 per additional hour plus materials/parts for complex/difficult to adjust vehicles.
I'm three years in and the supension settles in storage. I have Voghtland identical to those visually. Did you eyeball that ride height setting?
Measured with a tape measure.
HumbleMechanic I'm MK3.5( 12V) Cabby swapped. I have an 02M but it's still too stiff. Maybe I can run custom springs. Maybe a corner weigh, then order KW(custom rate)?
That would be cool. Yours have any damping adjustments
What does Corner Strut mean?
Dam, so alignment then corner balancing or other way? Or back to back until perfect setup?
Alignment, the CB, then confirm alignment is the “best” way
Corner balancing, you'll need adjustable drop links for the anti roll bars too, otherwise you'll get unequal spring rate across the axle?
Ja son The bar is not really supposed to be there if you are running coilovers. The suggested set up on a MK3 is no sway in the front and 28mm in the rear.(The spring rates are too high and there is not enough travel to necessitate a sway bar.
From my understanding, if u wind one wheel up or down relative to the other side, u will effectively be twisting the anti roll bar (sway bar), and by placing a load on the bar you are effectively changing the spring rate on that side. I've seen videos of tweaks done on cars which run quarter mile, and they talk about tweaking the drop links on the rear to have an overall effect on grip on the side which has least traction, in order to get as much balance of traction across the rear tyres... They call this preload.
I've also read that when you change ride heights you must fit adjustable drop links to prevent having undesirable amounts of preload. You're supposed to set the height you want with the anti roll bars disconnected, then hook up the anti roll bars and adjust the drop link lengths to the desired length without any load on either side of the bar/car. If we are talking 49/51% accuracy as per that video, then surely you would need to also account for anti roll bar preload.
+Ja son
Sorry, but anti-roll/sway bars do not change the coil-over spring rate.
Unfortunately, there is an abundance of misunderstanding and bad, unvetted/unscientific advice, opinion, info and data on CZcams, numerous forums and the internet.
If the vehicle is ride height level laterally/left to right there should be no anti-roll/sway bar induced preload, unless there is improper installation, bent/damaged/defective/maladjusted components or it is intentional.
There is no sane reason for static anti-roll/sway bar induced preload for most vehicles.
Symmetrical static ride height as shown in the video is not affected by the anti-roll/sway bar and vice versa.
Yes, some drag race competition vehicles employ asymmetrical left to right static and dynamic/instant offset preload on the rear suspension.
Ja son I am only referencing the model and make shown in the video. You can confirm my info on Vwvortex. Sway bars are only good in MK3 VW cars with coils like H&R or what have you.(Exept in the back you go big.) It helps the front end load the tire/motive traction/reduces understeer and bump steer in A mk3 VW. Make Shure you have a ZF rack plus suspension if your car is VR swapped like my 3.5 Cabby.
jeremy whittler I'm not doubting that sway bars are good or not. I'm talking about the fact that if u have different ride heights across an Axle (for the sake over corner balancing) then you must dial out the unnatural loading you've then placed on the sway bar. Which is called preload if I'm not mistaken. This video talks so much about balancing and the benefits of doing so, but yet they don't cover off the basic fact that the sway bar will be unnaturally loaded on one side, or shall I better say there'll be more spring rate on one wheel due to the twist of the sway bar from un equal ride height across an axle.
Given that the distribution is 50/50 on the cross pairs of wheels, what would it be on the axle pairs, front and rear? Does that not matter?
Do you mean the weight carried on the front VS weight on the rear?
Yes - weight distribution front versus rear. I would imagine this would affect braking, for instance. Are cars normally set up with an even split?
The front to rear split can really only be close on RWD mid engine cars. Otherwise the engine over the front is going to make the f front always weigh more.
That makes sense, thanks.
Hey Charles, I just found out that you are based in NC, my car is in need of a clutch, (it is a 2013 Civic SI) but i am having trouble finding a trusted shop to do the job for me. Would you recommend me any good shops in NC. I am in Greensboro but i can travel anywhere around NC. Thank you.
I know a great VW shop in the area. Not sure if they would do Honda work, but a clutch is a clutch. They are called Everything Euro. Give them a buzz. If Tom and Walt aren't equipped to do it, I bet they know someone local that is.
Thank you. I will contact them. I will also drive up to Automotive Performance and Chassis to get my Civic corner balanced.
They are awesome! Let me know if you do. If I can I will meet ya up there for lunch or a beer or something
I took my VW GTI MK6 to this shop recently and they did a fantastic job on the alignment. Highly recommend these guys to anyone in the N.C. area.
edit: Love the mk1 TT 16" 5 spoke wheels! Had the same wheels on my mk3 VR6 in Windsor Metallic Blue and they fit the car perfectly down to the wheel offset.
Awesome!!!!!
But technically the brakes are not supported by the spring so its not actually throwing off the balance right? Especially being so close to the ground its not being top heavy and equal on both sides. Just a thougjt
If the weight is much less is changes the overall weight. This can upset the balance. For this car, probably no need to worry about it.
Great job Charles! You get a pass on this one for letting the balance guy do the explaining. Next time I expect to see the white board. ;)
lol. He did such a great job.
His practical wood thingy helped make this so much simpler. Good video
Ayyy fat fives 🤙🏽
Have you checked out the 1552 Turbomac? Those are begging to be on the wookie in white. 18' would look really great, there are a few pics floating around.
jeremy whittler not a fan of the style plus 18s on a mk3 is a bit to much I like it clean and low but that’s just my opinion , them rotiform blq or bbs rx do look nice check dem out
lito vega Absolutely, but you can't get the Rot'is in 17". The BLQ were my first choice.
lito vega I ordered the 1552 in Candy and they look great. My buddy had the 18" Rotiform on a Mk4 and they were sick.
lito vega Here is what happens , the 17" doesn't fit either. By the time you roll your fender, your back @ 18" Fitment wishing you had bought those. I have an R-32 front end that requires a lot of ground clearance, if I could fit a 19" I would run that for the ground clearance.(Now you looking @R32 oil pumps and short pans).
Broooooo that’s the same place I was gonna get my car corner balanced at!!!!!!!!
Hell yea. They are great. I need to get my Miata up there for an alignment
Also a hazelnut latte😂😎
Always remember, camber affects toe, but toe does not affect camber...
What does your guy charge for a race balance/alignment vs standard one?
Beaver Lake Motorsports I don’t know for sure. I think it all depends on how much work they do. To me it doesn’t matter the spec I’m setting to.
HumbleMechanic Was just wondering because there was a shop near montreal that had a deal for a race alignment with corner balancing for 250$.
That’s a good deal I think. As long as they actually balance it
Since i built my car myself, I don't trust any dude to touch it without me giving him the thousand mile stare while he works... I even talk to them with trick questions that I already have the answers to just to make sure they have the required competence. So i doubt they would skip anything.
I feel that. Lol
Spend the money on better tires instead. Tires are the quickest source for performance upgrade.
Agree on the tires. But if your suspension geometry is not right your car will not be right.
With wrong geometry your brand new tires will get uneven.
How much these guys charge to corner balancing a Porsche?
Another reason to poo same time every day.
Hahaha..so funny :D
Ahh.... no wonder i shake so damn much.
would you have to add your driver's weight into account?
Did you not watch the video
By adjusting your coil height you change your spring rates. Is this something they accounted for?
Adjusting coil-over ride height does not change spring rate with most springs.
The spring rate will only change if it's a progressive spring. Most coilover springs are linear and not progressive meaning the actual rate itself will not change if you happen to adjust the preload while changing the height.
On these types of coils you are mainly effecting the actual travel length in the shock by dropping the ride height. Ie decreasing the amount of travel. There are other brands of coil overs which have additional adjuster rings and a different shock design (a lot of Modded Japanese cars run them I've seen) where you can adjust the ride height withour compromising the travel in the shock, and also be able to adjust height and spring rate independently
By changing the height of your springs on your adjustable coil overs you can affect your spring rates, was taught that at Motorsport engineering college (yeah I get this car is no race car). To change the weight balance you can shim or move your coil over away from its mounting in the vehicle body
+Tim’s Tools
The coil-overs shown in the video are "Partially Threaded Coil-Overs" with linear rate springs and the ride height is not independently adjustable.
Changing the ride height on these adjustable coil-overs does not affect the spring rate of the springs.
Adjusting static preload coil-over ride height/corner weight/cross weight/wedge on Partially Threaded Coil-Overs without regard if the spring is linear or variable rate is optimally somewhere near 50 percent of the shock stroke travel.
What you say you were taught is not accurate for progressive/variable rate springs or linear rate springs.
Spring rate is set when the spring is manufactured.
Spring rate is not field adjustable.
Applying Hooke's Law, spring preload does not alter the spring rate for linear or progressive rate springs.
Here is a published statement from industry respected coil-over/spring engineering/manufacturer QA1 on the subject:
"Does raising the spring seat increase spring rate?
No. Once the weight of the car is set down on the shock and spring combination, raising and lowering the spring seat will only serve to change the shocks eye-to-eye measurement and also the car ride height. The compressed length of the spring at that point will not change unless it has something more than the weight of the car to work against, such as the shock is topped out or bottomed out."
www.qa1.net/technical-support/street-performance-racing-faqs#seven
There is much more about this subject, but I currently do not have the time to publish a deep dive into the how and why physics in a CZcams comments section.
Can somebody elaborate on why the vehicle needs to be rolled on and off the scales? I re-watched that bit but I still don't get it.
to let the suspension settle. anytime you lift a car and set it down, the suspension will remain "upset" until the vehicle rolls a bit.
Yep. What Joe said.
Interesting. I wonder which forces act there. Hey humble, poke EE and make him mention it in a video :P whiteboard mandatory!
Good idea. I think that we may collaborate on that next go around. Yesterday we filmed a turbo blanket video.
Next time you jack up your car and then drop it back down, have a look at that tyres sidewall angle/stretch. It will almost always be tucked back in under the car. It's to do with the way the suspension angle travels... So that's why they roll the car back and forth, to allow the tyres and therefore loading to be correct
i have questions...1. what should be done first, the corner balancing or the alignment? 2. do the sway bars have to be disconnected? 3. should you add weight to simulate possible passengers? 4. lastly, should the static ride height be decided before the corner balancing? thanks in advance
Alignment first
We did ours with sways connected. I’ve heard both ways
Yes simulate the driver as we did in the video.
Yes set desired ride height first. That the big adjustment and corner balance is the fine tune
@@HumbleMechanic thanks for the reply. i need more clarification and i apologize if I'm asking too many questions. i will be doing this soon on my car that has a ton of adjustment...
so, i should set the ride height first...should that only be done simulating the drivers weight? what about passengers weight when setting ride height and corner balance?
what is actually best when balancing, sway bars on or off?
thanks again💪
THIS IS A VERY AMAZING INTERESTING VIDEO.... BUT I WAS ALSO THINKING AS WELL ABOUT MECHANIC UNIFORMS ... WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT WEARING A TIE AS A UNIFORM FOR AUTOMOTIVE . DO YOU THINK IT WOULD LOOK GOOD ???
I'M WEARING ONE I GUESS LONG AS I WEAR A TIE CLIP ... GIVE ME A ANSWER MR.HUMBLEMECHANIC ??
Tinted taillights? Are you 18?
What are you talking about? Those are OEM tail lights. :/