Why didn't Sauron create more Nazgul?
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- čas přidán 30. 10. 2023
- In this video, we look at the possible reasons why Sauron never tried or succeeded in creating more Nazgul.
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The idea of the Nazgul having to nominally serve Frodo leads to some amusing scenarios. As Frodo had just made a terrible journey and was desperately hungry and thirsty, I could see him ordering the Nazgul to fetch food and drink for him and Sam. Another theory I have never seen any channel cover is this: "what if Bill Ferny didn't sell his pony to Strider and the hobbits, and they thus stayed in Bree an extra day trying to acquire a different pack animal?" If that happens, they are still in Bree when Gandalf arrives on Shadowfax that night, and opens up many different alternate scenarios.
Frodo: And bring Sam some taters!
Witch King; Whhhhatsssss tatersssss Massssster Bagginsssss...
The nazgul would have made awesome wingmen.
@Damon: that would be very interesting. One thing I wonder about; how would events have played out if Gandalf's letter had been delivered on time?
@@TJDiousPO-TA-TOES
@@morningstar577boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew.
I think another limiting factor with the idea of creating more Rings is the amount of power in the One Ring itself. There was a limit to how much power Sauron could put into the One Ring and that he put so much of his own power into it suggests to me the possibility that there was a limit to how many other Rings of Power could be subordinate to the One Ring.
I get the idea the rings take on power and life of their own beyond what their creators put into them
That sounds about right.
Yeah I also thought it was an issue of control. Like having too many might’ve just been too difficult. There’s this evil armor in another series I like where military commanders can dominate the will of their soldiers directly for better cohesion in a battle. However trying to manage too many connections at once results in the whole thing breaking apart
@@pIayingwithmahwiiname of that piece of media pls
Sauron did not think he'd need more. Sauron did not know Nazgul would be so powerful, and it took hundreds of years to turn a man into a Nazgul. He did not have access to the forges of Eregion, needed the rings he had on hand to snare other races he did not yet control.
How much of the power of the Nazgul is simply skill accumulated by the combination of natural human ambition and an indefinite lifespan?
@@ingold1470 Strategically, quite a bit, but its a fraction of many elves Sauron wanted to corrupt who were magically more powerful in their beginning and thousands of years older than the Nazgul. I think Sauron could not truly evaluate the effectiveness of the Nazgul because he accredited most of his success to himself, and probably felt than even without the Nazgul his vast intelligence and cunning would suffice. They were small pieces on his chess board of hundred of thousands. Maybe if a ring could control a Great Dragon or a Balrog, his effort to create another ring would be worth it, or maybe not. A Balrog could have broke free of his control and became a mighty rival. .
I think the whole point of the nazgul was to slowly corrupt the kingdoms they ruled to serve sauron and provide him with soldiers and slaves, and after they served their purpose they were basically just normal dudes with whatever powers they had accumulated in life, plus some bad breath and invisibility. I don't think most of them were much better than regular human fighters otherwise. The witch king seems to be the most powerful, being a warrior and a sorcerer, but even then afaik sauron still decided juice him up with his own power before battle...and he still died. I think making more nazgul was more about "which kingdom do i want to target and slowly corrupt over the course of an age" than it was about having an invisible guy in a hood to dump your chamber pot for you. I kinda think the only advantage of having nazgul was their loyalty and the fact that they can walk around invisible and be great spies. By the third age it seems that most of that kingdom corrupting work was done so there wasn't much of a point in continuing. Most of the kingdoms that were going to be corrupted had been already and the ones that hadn't would take too long compared to just invading them. He took the 9 rings back because they all have power in their own right that he can use. Remember, their purpose wasn't ONLY to corrupt the users, but also to give them the power to preserve and rule their kingdoms. They might have all had specific useful powers that sauron wanted for all we know. If morrowind taught me anything it's that you can never have too many enchanted rings.
I have always had a suspicion that The Mouth of Sauron was on his way to becoming a Nazgul. Think about it, he was powerful enough, and had been in Sauron's service long enough, to be Sauron's chief non-ringwrath follower, to be put in charge of Barad-Dúr, to represent and speak for Sauron, to have forgotten his own name, to harbor well-founded opinions that he would goven the west after Sauron had victory, ect. He must have been on the way to becoming a Nazgul.
He would need to be something more than a mere mortal if it’s the case. And the only plausible explanation would be that he perhaps was in possession of a ring.
I never thought of that. Maybe Sauron was planning on giving him the Witch-king's ring.
It's possible. Perhaps it would've been a "reward" had the Free Peoples been crushed. The Mouth would've been similar to Aragorn in age, so even with Black Numenorean ancestry he would've been fast running out of time. A Ring of Power would've changed that.
I disagree. I feel that mouth of sauron is his herald only. Other than a role of a messenger, a harbinger of Sauron's terrible words he does not seem to take part in any other roles the way how Nazguls does. I am not saying his position is weak, being a representative of Sauron is a powerful position not only that he speaks the words of sauron but the foul things he said have corrupted him to become this cursed thing that he is. I don't believe that he to become a nazgul. To be a nazgul you had to be a powerful being who fell from what you are into this undead thing via the rings he made. Mouth of Sauron was corrupted by other means, hence he is not meant to become nazgul. Besides it seems being a herald of sauron is the only role that sauron intended for him.
He was supposedly going to be gifted with a rebuilt Isengard thats no little thing. He could have been given one of the Seven and been a proto Nazgul not yet turned into a wraith. This would be kind of ironic seen that it has been largely theorized he was the messenger sent by Sauron to Dain offering a Ring back in exchange for news about Bilbo
Regarding Sauron offering to return the 3 Dwarf rings… in Fellowship of the Ring, The Council of Elrond, Gloin tells the tale of the messenger of Morder asking the dwarves’ help in finding the halfling that he’d learned of from Gollum . Sauron only offered to return the three dwarf rings *IF* they recovered and returned to him “a little ring, the least of rings… a trifle that Sauron fancies….” (The One Ring). So, he wouldn’t have given them the rings and been at risk of one of those rings being used against him or to control the Nazgûl until he’d recovered the One Ring and mastery over all the other rings.
Given Sauron's reputation, and the Dwarve's natural grumpiness, I doubt they believed that 'a trifle that Sauron fancies' line one little bit.
Indeed, if you read on in The Council of Elrond, you find that Gloin says that they did “not need the fell voice of the messenger to warn (them) that his words held both menace and deceit, for the power that had re-entered Morder had not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old…”
I always did wonder: Why didn’t the witch king just stab 20,000 people with the morgul blade and make a wraith army?
First you need 20,000 Morgul Blades and after you did this you have 20,000 servants that are unable to interact With the physical world.
The blade was reserved as a punishment for the greatest enemies.
You know what I love about Tolkien fandom? The art work. Inspires such beautiful imagines, rich in story...
Really interesting. Was always interested in the 3 remaining dwarven rings.
Excellent video on Ringonomics :) Really logical takes on the multiple issues here!
Question for you about the Nazgûl. So when ever the baddies sent out the orc/goblins they had instructions to bring back the ring bearer. I’m assuming with how the ring was if a goblin/orc whoever was to pick up the ring it would seduce them also. So what would happen if the Nazgûl picked up the one ring? Would they follow orders or be consumed by it?
the nazghul are nothing without sauron wether he has the ring or not, the ring wouldnt work on them because they answer to sauron..putting on the ring would not make them do anything but bring it to sauron, they have no will or power of their own but from sauron
lets say it happends; one nazghul does put the ring on just to know how it looks like(or dominate), it wil probably be punished and burned by sauron but they never really have to be punished because they never will do anything but his saurons will
hence this scenario wouldnt happen, nazghuls have less identity then a corpse they are gone and empty as they can get, theres nothing left from to have somethig happen when wearing The One Ring, BUT if they would wear their own rings of power it would be different i'd say..
Yep, the Nazgul are entirely enslaved to Sauron's will. There's no chance of them taking it for themselves. As for Orcs, they don't know what the One Ring even is; they're ordered to retrieve a trinket. If they disobey that order...bad things happen.
I’ve heard rumors that Lobelia Sackville-Baggins wanted to control the Nine as muscle at the Party Tree in Hobbiton. 😮
Interesting and excellent reasoning!
Really cool topic cheers from Toronto 🙃
I've always thought there were more. Individuals that were stabbed by morogol blade like Frodo, and didn't get treated in time. But of course this probably didn't happen often.
I always liked the idea that Sauron returned the Witch King's ring before the battle of the Pelennor Fields, both granting him greater power, while simultaneously making his ultimate demise possible.
If that's the case, imagine if some random, ambitious soldier from Gondor or Rohan who was in the battle found it and started using it...
He'd probably end up avoiding all the negatives as well if that did happen, considering the rings all lose power when The One is destroyed.
First time I’ve heard this topic too 🎉
love it bro keep it up :)
Another possible limiting factor is the amount of time the process takes. From what we know of the Nine, they only became wraiths after their lives had been greatly extended beyond their normal span, given the already extended lifespan of Numenorians it is possible it took centuries.
On a slightly more speculative note, if the personal power of the ringbearer effects the power/skill of the resulting wraith (based mainly on the Witch King seeming to be more powerful than the others), it is possible that it was no longer possible to trick suitably powerful individuals into accepting and using the power of the rings.
the lack of corporeal form after the loss of the One Ring could also be an impediment, the Nine, Seven and Three were crafted by an elven master smith, the orcs and his other servants may have simply not been skilled enough to craft the rings for Sauron
Something I found interesting is that Gandalf mentions that the Nazgul have a mere shadow of the power they would have if Sauron regains the One. I think this is because he would be able to return to each their own ring of power. Also the problem of doubling the use of the nine would be that it would make a Nazgul subservient to the mortal that carried his Ring and even with the One Sauron has to take some time to dominate a new bearer, as its told that the Nazgul themselves didn't fall immediately
The question of control gets even more interesting with some edge cases.
Yes, if Gandalf claimed the One Ring then Sauron would be vanquished and the wraiths would change their allegiance. This is directly stated by Tolkien. However, what if a powerful elven lord claimed the ring? What if Gil-Galad, or Elrond, Galadriel or Cirdan claimed it? Even Aragon might be a possible edge case. Besides his own considerable will, Aragon's lineage is a noble one, with Numenoriean, elven lord, and even maia heritage.
I think it's questionable if Sauron would be brought so low that he'd loose control of his hröa. Certainly, it's doubtfull any of these characters could simply claim the ring and immediately vanquish him on the spot. All of them save Gandalf, Saruman, and maybe the Balrog would need time to master it. I doubt even Radagast, Maia he might be, had the innate skill of domination necessary to immediately dispossess Sauron of his strength.
Would the Nazgul be lost to him the moment Aragon claimed the one? I think this is unlikely. Rather, Sauron could continue the contest for Middle Earth. If I were Sauron, I'd strike this new lord of the Rings as swiftly as possible; if only to prevent his mastering of the ring and the marshaling of his allies. He's still the weaker party in a contest of arms, at least for a time, and Sauron's armies will fight on the field of battle. What's more questionable is if these same armies might stand or waiver if the king himself joined the field of battle and had the mastery of the ring. Sauron understands that scenario and would act quickly and perhaps rashly to prevent it.
This is, in fact, what he did, to his own destruction.
Sauron would need access to as much of his own native strength as possible in any of these scenarios should the one be found and claimed, as he fears. Giving other men or elves more rings dilutes this strength. It isn't worth the risk and wouldn't be entertained as an idea until he can repossess the One himself and he has vanquished his traditional foes.
Isildur was in possession of the One for 2 years and couldn’t control the orcs during the ambush. Isildur probably didn’t actively try to master the One, but he was arguably more powerful than Aragorn. I think no mortal could master it and it would take decades for Ainur like Gandalf or Balrog.
@@frggdeckkkydexhhgg Did Isildur actively claim the ring's power? We know he claimed it as a weregild, but that might be different to how Gandalf describes its use or how we see Frodo claim it at the Cracks of Doom. We know he was aware of its danger, so it's possible he held it in keeping in the same manner Frodo or Bilbo did up until his death. Either way, I agree with your main point.
@@frggdeckkkydexhhgg As I understand, he did, in fact, try to bend the ring to his purposes for at least some of that time. Or, at least, I know that he stated in a written record that the reason for heading to Rivendell with the Ring (whereupon they got ambushed) was because he had realized that he could not master the powers of the One, and was seeking Elrond's counsel on what to do with it given how dangerous he had realized it was. I see three possibilities for why he couldn't master its powers:
1) He simply lacked the nature of dominance necessary to wield the One. This is plausible given that he shows (in the books, afaik) no real temptation or corruption by the ring any greater than Bilbo, and arguably less than that, given he almost certainly knew that the best advice Elrond could offer (if he knew) was how to destroy the One. You might say, "But he was a king," to which I'd say, yes, but he was as much (or more so) a paragon of a king as Aragorn: a leader more than a ruler, wise sage as much as a fierce warrior, and ultimately motivated to be king only because of his nature to guide and protect his people combined with his innate skill at doing so justly and positively. In the paradigm of justice that exists in the moral framework of ME, that justifies his role as King without him being considered or needing to be a dominator.
2) He just wasn't powerful enough. This is also plausible. Man, especially after the fall of Numenor (though Isildur is still pretty Numenorian) is simply less magical than Elves or the Maiar and Ainur. This is, in no small part, due to their being somewhat untethered from Arda, what with the Gift/Doom of Man and all that.
3) He could, in time, learn to master the One, but had recognized that it could do no good works, only evil ones. This could probably be checked against his exact words regarding seeking to set the One aside, but the idea here is that he was strong enough, but saw the inherent flaw in trying to do good through evil means. Isildur is certainly wise enough to have that insight, and strong enough of character to surrender the ring (though Tolkien says no one could ever deliberately destroy it). While it's true that Bilbo surrendered the ring after having it for a much longer period of time, Bilbo also displays a degree of jealousy about it from the start, hiding its existence and powers entirely from the Dwarves and Gandalf and lying first that the riddle game won his way out, then that it won the ring which Gollum surrendered willingly (which seems to have made it into at least one edition of the Red Book given early editions of The Hobbit) before finally being able to acknowledge that Gollum thought him a thief- though it does seem that Gollum did offer the ring as the prize against Bilbo's life for the riddle game, albeit with no intention to follow through.
Isildur seems to display no such jealousy surrounding the ring to my knowledge, though there are plenty of explanations to be conjured that do not support the idea of Isildur being inherently more resistant. I do think that Isildur would have been more susceptible the One's corruption in the long run than Bilbo, Frodo, or even Smeagol, due simply to having a more ambitious mindset, and a greater desire to shape the world to his goals. While any of the Hobbits might have turned into a creature like Gollum, that's pretty much the limits of their corruption, because by nature all they really want are simple comforts, while Isildur, being a king, claims the responsibility of shaping his society for the betterment of his subjects- a necessarily more ambitious and potentially dominating role.
@@Jallorn All good points. I think we are simply left to speculate on this since we don't have an exhaustive account of Isildur's character. We could perhaps extrapolate that he was at least modestly good at the art of domination. Most successful leaders need to have some practice at this, even if it's done for good reasons. Given Isildur is a key player in the founding of Gondor, it would be absurd to think he could not command and even dominate other men.
Tolkien clearly thought about this vulnerability inherent to leadership. We see something of this with Frodo when he takes charge of the quest following the breaking of the Fellowship. There's a bit of a chicken-and-egg conundrum about it all. Does the ring grant Frodo more strength of will, or does the responsibilities of the quest result in character growth? Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle, as Tolkien no doubt intended.
Tolkien actually covers this is a bit more in the same letter. He states Gandalf was the only one that could truly master the One Ring, therefore overthrowing Sauron. That being said, Gandalf would still be corrupted, and in Tolkien's own words, he would end up worse than Sauron. Tolkien also says that Galadriel (although she believed she could until she rejected the One Ring) and Elrond couldn't have mastered the One Ring the same way Gandalf could, but they still could've used it to great effect. They could've used it to dominate foes, raise armies, and destroy Sauron by force.
What if Morgoth corrupted the race of men into monsters? The elves became orcs, so what would men become? I'm picturing an Apostles from Berserk type of thing.
Men would become Philadelphians *shudder*
In Tolkien's later writings, Men could and did become Orcs as well. Saruman has Half-orcs in his service, and his improved Uruks are said to have been created from crossbreeding with Men.
Lotro actually did in theory used this in form of the carguls (so Frodo would have turned into one of these, but 3 feet tall😂).
Good topic
What would happen if Saruman succeeded in creating powerful rings?
Grima would become a sad and lonely parody of a Nazgûl
Honestly, I don't know how much of a difference it would've made. The main strength of the One Ring was to dominate others, but Saruman was already adept at that through the use of his Voice.
I have often wondered who else besides Glorfindel, Elrond sent out against the Nazgûl when Frodo was on his way to Rivendell. Glorfindel said there were few that could ride openly against the nine, but doesn’t name names. Any thoughts. Thanks as always for your excellent work!
By how it is phrased he obviously means "few in general", not in that specific day. Gandalf and other bearers of elven rings would more than qualify. In fact, Gandalf did give the nazgul front row seats to a fire show earlier in the story... And that was him being surrounded and possibly ambushed in a confined space. In an open field, during the day, Witch King flew waaay around Gandalf.
At least in the book Glorfindel alone, with a little Help from Aragon in the end, put the nine to flight.
The confrontation wasn't in the physical world.
While not in Rivendell at the time, Gildor Inglorion has been around since the First Age, so there might be a few other Elf-lords like him hanging around that were fairly powerful.
@@DarthGandalfYT Wouldn't say there are no Others, just that he left Rivendell alone.
@@DarthGandalfYT Any Noldor still around like Galadriel, and possible even the Lords of the Sindar like Cirdan and Thranduil.
There must be a reason why the Nine never touched the elven realms.
But they are all not Mortal Men.
Aragorn was at least able to make a stand against them, most men would be to affraid to do this.
I was literally just thinking this question going to bed a couple nights ago
Great video! Some additional observations: just as the Noldor probably couldn't have crafted the Rings of Power without Sauron's help (at least not as quickly), I don't believe Sauron could create more Rings of Power without the High Elves. Originally there were just 19 Great Rings of Power, and many lesser "practice" magic rings, with the intent of them being made by Elves for Elves. The Rings' intended purpose was to generate bubbles of Valinorean purity in Middle-earth so the Elves could live long-term in this world that they loved, Morgoth-poisoned though it may be. While Sauron captured all but the Three when he invaded Eregion and sacked Ost-in-Edhil, the jig was up and the Elves weren't going to be fooled again, so he passed the 16 rings he won out to Dwarves and Men as a makeshift Plan B. Over thousands of years the public conception of the order of Rings (the One, Three, Seven, and Nine) was set as we know them during the end of the Third Age, with songs and poems made about them.
I'm also of the belief that they needed each other. We see with Saruman's attempts that creating such powerful artifacts was not an easy task.
Could Sauron create more Nazgul?
In my opinion, No. At least not without the One. It was through the power of the One that the Nazgul were originally ensnared, bent forever to Sauron's will. When the One was lost, Sauron made it his mission to collect all the other rings (including the Nine). He did this, I believe, not because he feared the individual power of those rings used against him, but because he feared the bearers of those rings would fall under the sway of whoever might find the One.
An interesting thing to note is the difference in power of the Witch King early in the story to later on during the Battle of Pellanor Fields. Early on, he was chased off by Aragorn with little more than a flaming brand, but later was ableto challenge even Gandalf the White. I speculate that at first Sauron held all of the Nine rings, but then gave back the Witch King's ring before the last battle. This theory is not without it's problems, such as why no ring was found after the Witch King's defeat, but then the power disparity mentioned above is a problem of it's own.
But getting back to the point, Sauron could not create more Nazgul without possession of the One. His offer to give three of the Seven to Dain could have been a lie, or it could have heen earnest. It was rumored by Gandalf that the other four were consumed by dragons, so it may be probable the rings draw dragons to them. Another stretch, perhaps, since dragons didn't seem to be drawn to Frodo, nor to Sauron himself, but then Tolkien's world did operate off some rather soft logic.
Anyway, if you read all this, I thank you.
My thoughts exactly
To support your argument, consider the three Elven Rings. Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel were very much using them against Sauron's interests during the Third Age and there was nothing that he could do about it because he didn't have the One Ring, which would either control them or force them to stop using their rings. While the Dwarven Rings were touched by Sauron and had more of a corrupting influence as a result, corruption doesn't automatically mean that the ringbearers serve Sauron. They might produce "rogue" Nazgul who act as they choose because Sauron has neither the One Ring nor their individual Rings in his possession. I agree that the reason the Nazgul do not wear their Rings is because Sauron needed those Rings to control them in the absence of the One Ring. Logic: if destroying the One Ring dispersed most of Sauron's power, reducing him to a shadow of malice with no form, then destroying any Nazgul's Ring would likely result in them succumbing to the Doom/Gift of Men and dying final deaths.
This was excellent fun. I enjoy a bit of mulling over theories about Tolkien stuff as much as the next mild fan. But I come out in hives when people just descend into theory lunacy...as is currently happening with all things grrmartin Ice & fire related, - if all the theories out there are to be believed, no one is actually the child of their parents, every person is really someone else, and no one is ever really dead, in short .they all watch too many soap operas where such "plot" devices rule after X many seasons and "obvious plot devices" 1 through 12 have all been exhausted.
This video avoided all such nonsense, and was jolly. Well done indeed.
2:07 - Erm...are we sure about that?
"But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger."
"I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours! "
Gandalf didn't get distracted by some "pretty baubles" at Orthanc, and Saruman wasn't looking to open up an Etsy store. He was making rings of power...now how powerful they were is a whole other debate, but he wasn't making costume jewellery.
Also, Gandalf never disputes or casts doubt on his claims.
That's why I said "potent". If Saruman had succeeded in crafting a powerful ring on the level of Sauron's creations, he probably wouldn't have been reduced to such a pitiful state so quickly. I doubt the ring that he wore was little more than a vainglorious attempt at copying Sauron.
@@DarthGandalfYT Exactly, Tolkien states that in the case of the overthrow of Sauron by a western lord wielding the ring, Saurman would find his missing pieces of knowledge in Barad Durs Ruins and forge his own master ring (potent ring) before long. I presume machinery and machine forges is what he'd discover going by the sounds Frodo heard in Sammath Naur. The ring he made in Orthanc was just a slaves flattery of Sauron.
I assumed each Nazgul was linked to one of the Nine Rings of Men and as long as the Ringwraiths existed these Rings couldn't be given to other Men to create more Nazgul. I also assumed that it wasn't feasible for Sauron to create more Rings of Power without working with the Elven-smiths. Sauron had a lot of time before and after and didn't do it, which implies that he couldn't do it alone. Sauron created the One Ring alone but that was only after being steeped in the Ring lore he had developed in collaboration with the Elven-smiths.
My assumption is that part of his rising power was reclaiming some of the rings he had poured his power into. If he handed them out his own personal ability to act would be diminished, or at least delayed. Theres also greed to think of, he may have been content to expend much energy when he was strong, but after being reduced to nearly nothing, he would no doubt hesitate to surrender any stregnth himself even if it would strategically benefit his goals.
One master ring, plus three for elves, plus seven for dwarves, plus nine for men. We're missing the number 5!
They were all made for the Elves by the elves minus the ruling ring which was made by Sauron.
The problem with creating more nazgul using the current 9 rings would be the diminishment of thier power, the rings have thier own limit too remember, he could theoretically have let's say 18 nazgul but each one will only be half as effective
Is Eileen Elgar related to the composer?
What if an orc got a ring of power or was given one? Five rings for the orc lord in the land of shadow. Would an orc with a ring of power be on par with a man with a ring of power?
I would think so I think the orcs specifically the urukai seemed equivalent to men. Although the movie clearly defined orcs and goblins as a different race it was a little more blurred in the books and I think only the Urukai were more powerful on par wirh humans.
It comes down to one's inner strength and aspirations. Gollum was pathetic and loathsome even before he took the One Ring, so it corrupted him and reduced him to a sad state very quickly. Most Orcs are similar, and would probably end up in the same situation. A powerful Orc chieftain or an Uruk might be able to do a little more, but I think a Man like Boromir would achieve far more.
@@DarthGandalfYT tbh itd be a pretty quick story.
an orc possessed by the ring would be able to skip movies 1-2, and theyd walk through the black gate and then immediately die. lol.
Not sure if this is a unique question or if it plays into this one with his use of the nine to control the ringwraths but is there any evidence that Sauron wore and used any of the lesser rings? Especially while having lost the one? And what sort of effects would these lesser rings have had in such a scenario?
Yeah you could have a ring on every finger with all 9 Nazgûl rings and the One. Would be an awesome boss fight
We don't know what Sauron did with the lesser rings. I assume he either locked them up in his personal vault or had them on his person at all times. He had nine fingers left, enough for the Nine, but not enough for the three Dwarven rings he recovered. And I don't know if they would've had any effect on him because they were not crafted for him.
Another reason to get all the rings of power back is that at some point Sauron would have learned of Saruman and that he was researching the rings of power. Over many years, he managed to sway Saruman to his side, but could never trust him, and I don't think he would underestimate the threat of a Maiar with a ring of power to study, even if it wasn't the One Ring.
"Fifty thousand rings for mortal men doomed to die" doesn't quite have the same ring to it (pardon the pun!) as "nine rings". And the concept of a large force of wraiths was more or less covered by the oath-breakers that Aragorn led from the Paths of the Dead. No rings needed.
Great video thanks I now have an answer for my girlfriend who asked me this as she watched the films for the first time
Sauron had 3 lesser rings(he got from the dwarfs) that he was not doing anything with it. He could have give it to a man if he wanted
Curious, were the Nazgul loyal to Sauron, or extensions of Sauron? For example, I wouldn't call my fingers 'loyal to me'.
He only had so much dark force to put into cursed rings ... and for some numerological reasons.
Not true. Sauron only made one of the Rings and that is the ruling ring. This is the one he poured his life force and will to dominate into, the other 19 were all made by the elves. 16 of which under his supervision and 3 without.
Interesting insight.
That explains why the Nazgûl couldn’t take the ring at Weathertop, while Frodo wore the ring, the ringwraiths were subject to Frodo’s Will by proxy of the one ring.
Not sure about that because Gandalf later told him the Ringwraiths could see him on Weathertop and may have seized him.
I think on Weathertop Frodo merely wore the ring in an attempt to escape rather than claim it as his own.
Not quite. I actually have a video on that topic called "How the Witch-king failed at Weathertop". Basically, the Nazgul retreated because of the presence of Aragorn, the invocation of Elbereth, and the presence of enchanted barrow-blades frightened them. And with Frodo wounded, they believed it would be a matter of days before he succumbed to being a wraith and sought them out. Unfortunately for them, Hobbits were tougher than they realised, and Frodo made it to Rivendell.
@@DarthGandalfYT good point, since it was Merry stabbing the Witch King with the barrow blade that made him vulnerable to Eowyn’s sword strike. I had forgotten that.
One must claim the ring as their own to become its master. Frodo did not do this until the very end of the story. Carrying/using the ring doesn’t make one the master.
Gandalf the White, when he first shows up, says that the only way to win was to use the One Ring, and then he looks far to the horizon, sees that its out of reach and is relieved. Then he starts to form a plan 'B.'
But its expressed (but not stated) that he could have, as Gandalf the White, dominated the ring.
I guess that means he would have controlled the Nazgul as well?
I wonder if it would have corrupted him as Gandalf the White, in the same way it would have as Gandalf the Grey.
Or, was the point of that moment in the book to show that he was beyond corruption?
Its almost a throwaway moment, but I am reading through LOTR currently, looking for all the details I missed the other times I have read it.
This stood out as peculiar.
No, it was not possible to use the Ring for good. If Gandalf had taken it and used it, he would have become like Sauron. Or, as Tolkien described, even WORSE than Sauron. For he would have enacted a brutal tyranny in the name of what he THOUGHT was good. That is, the "greater good." Which very easily becomes the exact opposite of good.
I never have the idea of Sauron holding onto the 9 rings of men and 3 rings of dwarfs a thought till this video. To be honest, it makes perfect sense that he would hold onto the rings to have the Nazgul under his control since he didn't have the one ring as well as not giving out the dwarven rings due to the fact that he "couldn't" control the bearers of those rings. Which brings up an idea that if Sauron had the 9 rings and Frodo had the one ring, would Frodo have control over Sauron and the Nazgul since Sauron was in possession of the 9 rings and the Nazgul were tied to them?
Frodo's will could not possibly contest with Sauron's. If he tried to dominate Sauron with his own Ring, Frodo's mind would snap like a saltine cracker. The only people who could have possibly overthrown Sauron in the manner you describe would be Maiar of similar rank... Gandalf, Saruman, or maybe the Balrog. Gandalf is the only one Tolkien mentioned directly in a letter.
There are some other powerful beings (like Elrond or Galadriel) that could have used the Ring to empower their armies and take on Sauron by force. But they could not have contested him directly in a battle of will.
The Ring enhances the bearer, but it's still limited by the native strength of the one wielding it. Frodo's strength was not in domination, but in perserverance. And even that failed him at the last.
I guess wanting to create more nazgul is one of the reasons why he so desparately wanted the dwarven rings back
Can you read Nazgul? It`s related to Summer but beast looks like winter
Weirdly enough I always thought creating rings of power is like making horcruxes in the HP universe, namely splitting your soul apart and putting some of it into the item. U can just do it so many times or it will cripple your spirit and power signigicantly. Not sure if Maia souls can be split or if souls correlate with power, but the comparison above kinda makes sense for me :)
Sort of but not really. I'm not really familiar with HP so I might be wrong, but aren't horcruxes effectively phylacteries? You can't split your soul in Tolkien's universe. The One Ring wasn't designed to keep Sauron alive because he never intended to be separated from it. It was a side effect which initially worked out well for Sauron, before inevitably leading to his destruction.
I have wondered if The Mouth of Sauron might have been a “young” or proto-ring wraith.
I hadn’t really thought of this before, but in regards to Sauron taking back possession of the Nine Rings or Men… the Nazgûl, do you think this helps to explain the puzzling impotence of the Nazgûl against no more than Aragorn, Glorfindal (no small opponent), and a few hobbits, whereas in tales of the second age the powers of just the Witchking were rather awesome? So, maybe while they retained their powers of terror, and some moderate amount of “magic” that they weren’t overwhelmingly powerful because Sauron, not the Nazgûl themselves, held the Nine?
I've always thought that five Nazgul would have easily butchered Aragorn and the hobbits on Weathertop.
@@Mathemagical55 you have to consider the Witch King also led massive armies in his northern conquests. He wasn’t just fighting alone.
I think Sauron was wearing all the rings to gain back some of the power he put into them, at least it's a good reason why he didn't make anymore Nazgul
There is no justification for claiming that the rings could or could not bind more than one person at a time. We cannot know that, since JRR and Christopher are dead! The prolonged life span argument doesn't hold: Gollum and Bilbo begin to age when the effects of having owned the ring cease. Their longing may be due to withdrawal symptoms. The longing seem to continue after the One Ring is destroyed.
If it was possible to have two Nazgûl for one ring, Sauron might've feared that doing that would weaken the loyalty of the Nazgûl.
I imagine that a Nazgûl would not be too happy about someone else claiming his ring, and since someone else has the ring, Sauron wouldn't have as much control over him.
Is it only a movie thing, or could Sauron order his troops to stab a bunch of people with Morghul blades for more wraiths?
9 for mortal men doomed to die. Maybe Sauron should have been more patient and let Celebrimbor make some more rings before making the One.
I think people imagine if Saruman or Gandalf got the one ring they would have destroyed Sauron...... However people forget that sauron and the one ring are one in the same had gandalf or Sarumon wore the ring it likeoy would have eventually corrupted them becoming a host body for Sauron's spirit. We are also assuming that Gandalf or Sarumon are strong enough to master the one ring. The only being that could master the one ring would be a maia of equal power and malice as Sauron.
Initially though it would be down to Sauron being unable to create more rings necessary to enable him to corrupt and turn new servants into Nazgul. Though him being worried about losing control over his most powerful servants and not making more to have the problem added to, makes just as much sense too.
It’s not that he isn’t able to it’s more that he wouldn’t be able to trick people into keeping them as easily considering most in middle earth are aware of what happened and how. Plus, it takes 1000’s of years to crest wraiths therefore it isn’t exactly beneficial for him to want to do so during this time.
@@ItsSVO True, however, there are always people, hungry for power, whom wouldn't mind becoming one to acquire it. As Saurman tried to make his own ring and then to acquire the one ring to rule over middle earth and would still have been plenty of like minded tyrant as across middle earth especially in the south and east, whom would fit said personality.
@@wedgeantillies66 eh I’m not so convinced that would be enough. There’s also the issue with Sauron not having the ruling ring anymore therefore no real control over the other rings.
Saruman did try and make his own ring but it wasn’t of any use, it’s why he was looking for the one in the gladden fields many years prior. Saruman wouldn’t have been able to master the ring and challenge Sauron anyway, that’s something Tolkien said only Gandalf would have a chance of achieving out of anybody else in middle earth.
@@ItsSVO If he had no control over the other rings, then why did the Nazgul continue to follow and obey him, after his defeat by the last alliance. The fact that they continued to do so, indicates to me that if he had dished out the three dwarves rings in his possession and used them to ensnare three new nazgul, he could have gained three new servants.
Agree and yes, if anyone had tried to take and master the one ring, than suspect only as you say Gandalf or one of the elven ring bearers would have stood a chance of mastering it.
@@wedgeantillies66 he can’t control the other rings without the ruling ring in his possession, it’s why the the 3 elven rings are used after Saurons defeat and throughout the war of the ring.
The reason the Nazgûl obey him is because Sauron also has the 9 rings in his physical possession. Without the ruling ring in his possession he cannot control any of the rings he doesn’t possess. If he gave any of the 16 rings to men then over time yes, they’d have turned into wraiths but they wouldn’t be under his control without the one ring so it would be detrimental for him to do this. He also doesn’t need any more wraiths than he has so giving out rings is a risk for him.
Tolkien was clear on this, that only Gandalf could have had a chance of mastering the one ring and also over throwing Sauron and that’s only a chance not at all a certainty. No elven lords would stand a chance of overthrowing Sauron he is still very powerful without his ring and the ring is his after all whether somebody else claims it or not it is deceptive and trying to return to its maker.
Algormancy!
If I'm remembering correctly didn't Sauron and the elves create many "lesser rings of power"? Couldn't or shouldn't have those rings have been able to create lesser wraithes tied to the One Ring?
We're not sure what those lesser rings could actually do. A mortal wearer would only become a wraith if the ring extended their lifespan.
@@DarthGandalfYT Yeah, Gandalf mentions that he thought Bilbo's ring was one of those lesser rings for a long time. He seemed to think that that wasn't a big problem and only suspected the One after Bilbo stopped apparently aging.
First comment ur channel is awesome
Because Sauron thought Nine Is Enough?
Sauron saw Kamul’s incompetence and decided to not add more Nazgûl to the line up
To be fair to Khamul, no one could've stood up to Farmer Maggot.
Wine & chips time 😎😎
In the third age did Sauron reconstituting his body?
I think you're downplaying what we see with Gollum and Bilbo. In both cases, we see the effects of the ring lessen the longer they're away from it. Gandalf says as much in "Shadow of the Past", stating that it would be long before Bilbo could safely see the Ring again (an event proven true when Frodo and Bilbo meet in the Hall of Fire). Gollum held the Ring longer, but was also without it longer, and we see a definite progression--Gollum swears on the Precious, but at the same time we see him actively fighting the effects of it, and possibly could have become free of it over time, even while in close proximity to it.
Given that, I think that should Sauron have given the Nine to other people, the effects of the Nine would have faded over time in the Nazgul. They'd had their Rings a LOT longer than Gollum had the One Ring, and technically they still possessed them even if Sauron held them (a distinction that's shown to matter in the fact that Frodo didn't age, despite not using the Ring). If Sauron gave a Nazgul's ring to someone else, it's entirely possible that the effects of the ring on the Nazgul would diminish over time.
Yeah, I agree- at the very least, even if never able to be truly free of the influence of their rings, the Nine would have diminished in power if another was wielding the might of the rings in a way that would turn them into a wraith. Given how Sauron tied himself into the very art of ringmaking, its possible no one else could have taken the Nine's rings without them diminishing, and he may still have not been able to draw upon the power(s) of the nine rings without diminishing the powers of the Nazgul. Alternately they were diminishing and weakening, and Sauron simply accepted that as better than letting them break free of his control.
All that said, I think creating more wouldn't be something he could even do without the One. A human could wield a ring of power and become a wraith, sure, but without Sauron having the One, that human would only be twisted to Morgoth's evil, not Sauron's domination. The Nine were under his domination for so long he could still command them, but a new growing power wouldn't bend to Sauron's will if he didn't have the ring whose entire purpose was to dominate other ringbearers.
Another question: why were only Men turned into Nazgûl, and not Elves or Dwarves?
Men became Nazgul because their lifespans were unnaturally stretched until their bodies faded, turning them into wraiths. Elves are biologically immortal, and Dwarves were resistant to those effects.
The elves never used the rings they made once Sauron made the one ring to dominate them as they became aware of him. The Elves wouldn’t have become wraiths as they’re immortal but had they worn their rings whilst Sauron had the one it’s very likely they’d have been under his dominion in one way or another but not as wraiths.
The Dwarves as a race were not created by the same means as Elves and men (Eru) therefore the rings which were designed to effect Elves simply did not work in the way intended whereas with men it did.
So, leave it to a guy who studies ancient texts to ask a text history question. Where does the poem Gandalf quotes in full in Chapter 2 come from? The "One ring to rule them all..." has to be older since it's actually inscribed on the One Ring (in the Black Speech). It's known to the elves; I presume it's the actual incantation which powered up the One. Celebrimbor and the other holders of the Three overheard it and removed their rings. But the other 16 had not yet been distributed. Thus the poem incorporated the incantation with later knowledge of the Second Age distribution. But it does so in the Common Speech of the Third Age. This suggests a later date for the whole poem, possibly in the Third Age.
Along the same lines, let me also point out the convenience with which the Black Speech of the inscription scans exactly the same as the (English) "translation." As a translator, my grown up self finds this a wildly impossible coincidence. And I have to figure that at some point the philologist in JRRT also noticed this! He might even have thought about covering his tracks; this is, after all, a rare extended glimpse into the Black Speech! But the narrator won out over the pedant in the end. Just think, though. In that fragment we get the root "nazg", we get four verbs in infinitives with "-at" endings, and a Hebrew-ish use of suffixes to extend those verbs ("-ul" for direct object "them" and "-uk" for "all.") The language clearly works! The narrator won out, but the pedant creator of languages lingers on. Well done, Professor T! 😃
That's a great question. Unfortunately, we don't know where the Ring-verse came from or who wrote it. If I had to guess, it probably has its origins in the late Second Age, maybe just after the Nazgul appeared. It might've then become common knowledge where the other Rings of Power ended up after Sauron took them.
At what point did Sauron regain the 7? In the 2nd Age or the 3rd? If the 2nd, why not redistribute what he had then, when he ruled the greater part of Middle-earth and could prevent interference of the corruption process fairly well using only geography? All I can think is that there must have been political reasons, or blue wizards, making that more difficult.
I would imagine it was during the Third Age. Some Dwarves actually fought on the side of Sauron during the War of the Last Alliance, suggesting that he wasn't pursuing that policy just yet.
The 9 rings for men where done with the collaboration of the Gwaith y Mirdain and Celebrimbor. After the sack of Eregion and their death he couldnt remember the formula. Just like he couldnt create more rings,for the elves to get them under his thumb. Lets face it, without the elves Sauron was a pathethic ringmaker.
This isn’t correct at all.
The elves made all 19 rings of power. 16 under the guidance of Sauron and 3 without his awareness. The reason Sauron had the elves make them is because they were less likely to suspect anything than if a stranger turned up and gifted them, it wasn’t because he “couldn’t remember the formula” that’s insanely stupid considering Saurons knowledge of Ringcraft was what he offered the Elves in the first place.
He didn’t create more rings for the Elves because they’d have never taken them from him once he revealed himself and his plan to them after wearing the ruling ring.
Sauron isn’t a pathetic ringmaker without the Elves, the opposite is true hence why he made a master ring that could ensnare all of the rings the elves made.
Couldn’t the morgul blades turn others into wraiths?
I definitely like the Halloween aspects of lord of the rings
This question will seem dumb, mostly because this video already implies that it is wrong, but..
Why does craft cost Sauron things, but not others? For Sauron to make the One Ring, he basically had to carve a significant portion of his native power off of himself, if you will, and then tie it up in an object; in this case, the One Ring. Considering the magnitude of the achievement, and what he wanted it to do, that makes fine sense, until two Elves effectively do the same, but for free?
Feanor basically hand-crafts several of the most impressive artifacts of Tolkien's verse; he forged the Palantiri orbs, and the Silmarils, and unless you deem that this "depleted" his decency, luck, or chance to live a good, peaceful life, they were free. No, he can't create more Silmarils, but that's implied so because there isn't more of the special substance that they are made out of, while the Light is also all gone. It's never implied that these extreme feats of skill took away from that skill, or his long life. His hands weren't slowly withered by the strain of their manufacture. Celebrimbor is much the same. He and the Gwaith in Meredin, and yes I butchered that spelling, forged who k ows how many rings, and then fabricated the 19 we know about. Again, there seemed to be no "cost" incurred, on the part of Celebimbor, other than drawing the ire of the Dark Lord, and getting murdered. Maybe that makes some sense with the first sixteen, as Sauron was supervising, but then he left, and Celebimbor made three mote, completely without Sauron's knowledge, so he didn't "pay the tax" fir them. While it still annoys me even that Sauron could guess how strong he needed to make the One Ring, when he wasn't even aware of the Three, to know how powerful they were, it really annoyed me that these two Eldar seem to get Cart Blanche to make amazing things, bit the literally celestial being had to hack his own soul to bits, just to do the same? Otherwise, from where came the "essence" the Palantiri, the Silmarils, and the Rings of Power, when hands more grounded in the physical world elected to make them?
Sauron was using the One Ring to enhance himself. That is, it did more than just give him dominance over the others. There's another video on CZcams that gets into that... I think it's about Morgoth's Ring. (Morgoth's Ring being the entire planet.)
Effectively Sauron made himself the physical equal of Morgoth by forging the Ring. That's no mean feat for a Maiar. (Though Morgoth's strength was also reduced by what he had done to Arda.)
I'd say the difference is that Sauron intentionally poured most of his power into the One Ring. He was using it as a way to focus his vast power. He didn't have to pour all that power into the One Ring. In the end, it yielded mixed results; it kept him around after the War of the Last Alliance, but it separated him from most of his native strength.
@@DarthGandalfYT There's an interesting question... could Sauron have stood against Elendil and Gil-Galad WITHOUT the One Ring? Or would they have beat the snot out of him?
@@Swiftbow before he made the One Ring or after.
Before - yes, After - no.
@@Swiftbow The fact that Sauron went from personally leading armies in the Second Age with the One Ring to hiding in fortresses and fleeing faraway in the Third Age without the One Ring makes me believe that they would've beat the shit out of him.
Because, There were only 9 rings for humans.
I Guess He Lacked a Physical Form
...Sauron couldn't find competent help.
S: I'M SURROUNDED BY IDIOTS!!!
If Nazgul couldn't be killed (until the Ring was destroyed, of course) why didn't Sauron just have them assault Minas Tirith by themselves before Gandalf got there?
They could all be killed. Eowyn and Merry dispatched the Witch King a good week before the One Ring was destroyed.
He was defeated by a two-fold blow... Merry's dagger was crafted by Aragorn's people in the northern kingdom specifically to fight the undead hailing from Angmar. Thus, when he stabbed the Witch King's knee, he damaged the sorcery that kept him functional. That made him vulnerable enough for Eowyn to finish him off.
Minas Tirith would have had access to similar weapons, especially given the amount of time they faced off against the Nazgul. They also had trade with the northern kingdom before its fall.
Beyond that, the Nazgul were also vulnerable to being "decloaked." Without special clothes/armor, they couldn't interact with physical objects at all (not even their own weapons). That's how they were defeated at the Ford of Bruinen... the flood took out their armaments and they had to flee to Mordor to be redressed.
Insert Nazgûl = horcruxes here.
Heh Clone the Nazgul
are we recording in a pringles can?
No, but I actually do have a can of pringles next to me right now.
😢😅
he couldn't he needed rings to do that and he didn't have the ability to forge rings on his own and his own power would have been diminished if he did/had
This is simply incorrect in nearly every way.
Sounds like these rings are more trouble than they are worth.
He would have been better off not making them in the first place.
He didn’t make them, the elves did.
what's wrong with your audio? there's an echoing
The other reason is Tolkien needed plot devices to extend his tales like not having the Great Eagles fly Frodo and Gandalf straight to Mt Doom with the ring of power to destroy the ring.
That's not a plot hole, if they tried to fly eagles into mordor right away they would have been vastly outnumbered & defeated right outside mt doom. It was only due to the prolonged war in gondor that mordor was empty enough for the hobbits to use stealth to sneak through. It's kinda like asking, why didnt the allies just fly planes into berlin & kill hitler? Because even if they were successful getting there in one piece (unlikely), they would then have to make a ground assault on Mt Doom, in the middle of enemy territory, while all of their reserve troops are still stationed on defense there. One does not simply fly into mordor
Lets not forget, the eagles did as they pleased
He only had NINE RINGS-count ‘em-for the race of men. Sauron’s ring-making days were over after he distributed the rings to various mortal kings made by Celebrimbor but infused with Sauron’s dark sorcery. When Sauron created his own ring, he put the greater portion of his power into it. His ring-making days were done. All he could do was captivate the Nazgul with the Nine, try to collect as many of the Seven as he could (for what purpose is never known or addressed). The Three Great Elven rings could not be used by Sauron, for Tolkien assures us that they could not be turned to evil. But they could be used to expose their secrets and the minds of their wearers if Sauron regained The One. There you have it.
I think the video explained it well enough... he collected the Seven so that they couldn't be used against him. His plan to corrupt/wraithify the dwarves failed spectacularly. Largely because I don't think he knew when he gave the rings to the dwarves that dwarves were incapable of fading. Or that the worst effect of the rings on them was to amplify their greed rather than turn them into slaves of Sauron. His rings, rather than turn the dwarves into his minions, mostly served to enrich his enemies. (The dwarves were able to use their rings to generate more gold so long as they had some to start with... it's left rather vague as to how exactly they did that, though.)
He was ticked off that the dwarves were so resistant to his will and took the rings back as a petty revenge. He may have come up with a new plan for them later on, but that was secondary to removing them from active use.
There were actually 16 rings that were exactly the same and they are the ones eventually given to men and dwarves after Saurons initial plan to subjugate the Elves with them failed.
Also, the three Rings made without Saurons supervision could’ve been controlled and used by him when wearing the one if the Elves had worn them but not in the same way he could use the other 16 as the powers were different.
There is no justification for claiming that the seven were equal to the nine, and could be used to snare a human. I would rather think that they couldn't.
They were the same. 16 rings were made by the elves under Saurons supervision which are the 9 given to men and the 7 given to the dwarves. The other 3 rings were also made by the Elves but without Saurons supervision. Once the elves were made aware of Saurons plan they refused to use their rings which thwarted the original plan forcing Sauron to take the 16 back during his war on the Elves in eregion after which he redistributed them to dwarves and men as he’d failed with his initial target.
If Sauron's physical form was limited to whatever he was in his tower, he wouldn't have the mystical mojo to make anything worthwhile. I agree. What I really wonder, is why he didn't recruit more beings like Aragorn. Mortals with more than just physical prowess. Mortals with power or connected to it. Imagine a corrupted Elrond...
He tried to corrupt elves like Elrond. It didn't work because they caught on to what he was doing and took their Rings off until after he was defeated. (Elrond didn't get his Ring until he inherited it from Gil-Galad after the Battle of Dagorlad.)
As to mortals, Sauron basically did exactly that. The Nazgul were all powerful Men. Some of them were Numenoreans.
Because magical rings that enslave the souls of men don't grow on trees.
I disagree. It is pronounced Thray-in.
Also, Gandalf said, "the Nine the Nazgul keep."
Pointless argument, he made a certain amount of rings so......
True, but to be pedantic, Sauron didn’t make any of them solely except for the one ring. 19 rings (minus the one ring) were created in total by the elves, 16 of them under Saurons guidance and the other three without. When his plan had failed Sauron went to war with the elves in eregion where he stole the 16 made under his supervision and redistributed them to dwarves and men as a plan b.
I think there might be just a teeny bit of over-thinking in this video.
That's my entire channel.
a Nazgul is the flying creature the Wraith...
You re really that dumb? 😂🤦
The question "WHY DIDN'T (fill in the blank)?" could be asked about 100 different things in these books. It's infuriating.
Dumbest "I am completely unaware of the lore" question ever.
Your audio sounds like you’re recording from inside a fish bowl. Interesting topic but I couldn’t get more than 10 seconds into the video.
We can all be glad, that the nazis could just realize a fraction of these megalomaniac plans.
Some of their ideas are so damn ugly.. 😂