Who could use the One Ring against Sauron?
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- čas přidán 29. 01. 2024
- In this video, we look at who could have possibly wielded the One Ring against Sauron, and how they would've done so .
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Definately a big misconception from the movies that the ring can't be wielded, when it actually can. In fact, Sauron thinks Aragorn has claimed it and has challenged him.
Yes - actually the Ring shouldn't be wielded. But Boromir wouldn't have listened to that argument.
It's not too messed up because they still include the idea that Gandalf and especially Galadriel could use it and would be tempted by it.
Sauron must have been drooling and shaking with anticipation when Aragorn, the assumed bearer of The One was foolishly marching to the Black Gate with only 6,000 men. Why else would Aragorn act so boldly and so confidently other than having claimed The One before having a chance to master it.
This is the dilemma that the Council of Elrond faced. The completely safe option would be to use the Ring, and give it to someone powerful. Victory over Sauron would be ensured. But as the video states, this would simply lead to the replacement of the Dark Lord. And Sauron would inevitably return, repeating the cycle from the 2nd and 3rd ages. The Council also discussed throwing it out to sea, and letting Ulmo drag it into eternal disuse. But this would lead to Sauron becoming unable to be destroyed, as the Ring would survive, and he’d inevitably return again and again, and they’d lose this war anyway. The only thing that could grant victory to the free peoples is the ring’s destruction. It is only option. It’s by far the riskiest though, as the unlikelihood of it being pulled off is high, and its most likely outcome is just handing the ring to Sauron, to the doom of all. If they weren’t feeling confident, they likely would’ve done with the safe option to simply overthrow Sauron using the ring, and agree beforehand to collectively assassinate the bearer of the ring by trickery, cunning, and power, and then try to destroy it. You could argue that’s the better option. But even despite that, none of these options are good options. So you can see why Sauron was so overconfident in his eventual victory and reclaiming of the ring. Even if he lost, he’d likely just come back again.
About the first part, I read a note by Tolkien that if someone effectively take control of the ring, it would have the same result for Sauron as if the ring was destroyed. He would permanently lose that part of his power that he poured into the ring, practically he would become a house less spirit (the same ruinous path as Tolkien would put it)
@@saeedshahbazian9889 : What happens if the person who took control of the Ring dies and the Ring is lost again?
@@timonsolus I think it is implied that no incarnate could effectively wield the one ring. So, no elves and definitely no men. And Ainur don't die
@@saeedshahbazian9889 : Both Gandalf and Saruman died though. (Along with the 2 Blue Wizards, probably).
@timonsolus yeah physically they died. (They were incarnates). They endured but diminished. Saruman is the cloud that is blown away to the east by the winds of Manwe. Gandalf's situation is more difficult to grasp. Did he go to Valinor? It is implied that he went out of creation, which is a very strange thing. (Ainur are confined to Ea) Maybe Eru summoned him to have a chat
Don't know really.
Aragorn confronting Sauron through the palantir was a master stroke. I think Sauron metaphorically crapped his pants when Isildur's heir tricked Sauron into thinking he had captured the hobbit and taken the ring from him. Clearly Sauron thought Aragorn could defeat him given sufficient time to learn how to master the ring.
The idea of sauron coming back and after somone else had taken the one ring and him being the one to rally people to resistance against the new tyrant is funny but also really cool 😂
Why funny? I find it bone chilling. I imagine Sauron's smile to himself when he finally lays hands on it, very very similar to Light in Death Note, when he...
SPOILER
...purposefully relinquishes the Death Note, thus makes himself honestly forget all about the crimes he has done, get exhonorated and cleared of suspicion, but he had set up a plan that would bring himself into contact with the Death Note again, make him touch it, regain his memories, and - voilà! - back in full swing as the dark tyrant, but this time free to act bc nobody suspects it is him anymore. And THAT EXACT SAME GRIN is what Sauron would have on his face!!! 😬
One of the themes of the story is that any one who wielded the One Ring is that they would end up as a new Dark Lord in his place. Tolkien stated in the forward that Saruman could have used the One Ring to challenge Sauron, with the outcome in doubt. He posits that Sauruman could have found the missing links in Ring lore to create his own Master Ring to challenge the Ring Lord. By that example, I would say that Saruman could have succeeded with the One Ring.
Good points on there being two ways to use the Ring: Challenge and Sauron directly (only Gandalf and perhaps Sauruman would have any hope of success); or use the Ring to create your own empire and servants/slaves to overwhelm Sauron via military might.
The problem was never that no one could have used the ring against Sauron, it’s that whoever used it would likely have become just as bad as Sauron if not worse. In the book Tolkien actually devoted a lot of time to discussing potential ways to deal with the ring including giving it to powerful beings like Gandalf, Galadriel or even Tom Bombadil, but every alternative would have been worse than destroying the ring.
Another difference between Frodo and Gollum is that Frodo had knowledge of the Ring, what it was, and what it could do. I wonder how different things might have turned out for Smeagol if he'd actually known what he had.
I enjoy your videos immensely, and I am working my way through all of them bit by bit. I especially appreciate that you are backing up your suppositions (in videos like this one, where you are speculating on a "could have" scenario) with information directly from the Legendarium and sources like JRRT's letters; too many Tolkien content creators wax philosophic without backing up any of their claims, thus making their "research" suspect and/or hard to accept. Thank you for taking the time, and doing the work, to not only tell us what you think is possible, but WHY you think that way.
Great video. Thank you for using your own voice, for giving credit to the various artists on screen AND for using non-AI artworks. Your hard work is much appreciated! Cheers.
I already know this video will be great.
I am always right.
You deserve more subscribers and views. Truly underrated channel
One does not simply create a Darth Gandalf, as it were.
great video bro thanks for the lore, cheers!
Interesting remark considering Galadriel... at first glance you might think she is maybe the most likely to successfully wrest control of the Ring from Sauron. She seems to wield her own Ring the most, shielding Lothlorien from outsiders and to an extent, from Time itself. And as she states to Frodo, she certainly has considered it.
But this might simply be because she's one of the last pure Noldor who left Valinor, similar to Glorfindel but of a higher rank and House (and not fully repentant yet); still proud and arrogant to some aspect. In the end, she concedes she should not take it, and perhaps, CANNOT truly take it. Just as Feanor could never truly throw down Morgoth and retake the Silmarils, no "mere" Elf, even a great Noldor, could force a powerful Maia to submit to her will.
At most, Galadriel is a lesser reflection of Melian, under whom she learned awhile. Melian could hold off Morgoth's forces at a distance, up to and maybe including Sauron. But she could not hold off the power of the Valar (the Silmaril, hallowed by Varda, allowed Carcharoth to breach her Girdle). Morgoth also was powerful enough that he himself would have done so. Galadriel states (or infers, can't remember offhand) that Lothlorien is safe- her own "Girdle", unless Sauron himself comes. If she were to claim the Ring, he would come and take it.
another great video !!!!🎉
Interesting question
I think Sauron would eventually have overpowered any other ring user... there is only one Lord of the Ring.
Not a maiar like Gandalf. Tolkien explicitly states that Gandolf had the potential to wrest control of it, permanently sundering Sauron from the bulk of his strength. Where this gets iffy is characters like the high eleves or other Maiar.
Gandalf the white could defeat him.
But could Gandalf the Grey do it?
@@saeedshahbazian9889 I don't think so. Saruman was able to imprison Gandalf the Grey but Gandalf the White broke Saruman's power.
One of the possible ways that is discussed (and rejected) for how to deal with the Ring in the Council of Elrond is to take it across the sea to Valinor.
Questions for Darth Gandalf: ignoring the dangers for why the above was rejected, what would happen if the One Ring found its way to (for instance) Aulë?
Other possible questions concerning individuals who could have used the One Ring to raise armies against Sauron: what about Dain? You mentioned Elves and Men, but not Dwarves.
Very interesting question, if the Ring found its way to Aulë; a question I never thought about in the last decades. The Sammath Naur were the only place in Middle-Earth where the Ring could be destroyed, but I think Aulë, the Master, could actually undo it. Unfortunately the Valar were out of the game by the end of the Third Age, even though I think Aulë would - despite the evil contained in the One Ring and the horror of its dark magic - secretly be a little proud of his former apprentice for his craftsmanship.
These beings could use the ring to some degree: Gandalf, Glorfindel, Aragorn, Saruman, Durin's Bane, Elrond, Durin's Bane, Galadriel, Celeborn. Effectively use the ring to challenge Sauron: Gandalf, Galadriel, and possibly Glorfidel who was granted the power of a maiar, and had the strength of will necessary to bend a large part of the power of the ring into their service.
Nonono, I refuse to believe Saruman+Ring would still lose to Sauron. Curunír studied the Ring-magic for centuries, and was granted the most power out of the 5 Wizards.
Ok, that later reflection, that it could ne used in other ways. I didlike that, too much confusion. Just have belief in Men, Erudammit, write them so they can challenge Sauron!
Neverminding all that, wouldn't a wiser plan from Gandalf's standpoint be:
>Give the ring to Denethor
>Denethor defeats Sauron
>they simply walk into Mordor
>Gandalf pushes Denethor into Orodruin
Could balrog have mastered the ring? If he did, he’d turn middle-earth into a dreadful hellhole, worse than if Sauron got it.
That’s my thought, that the Balrog of Moria being a follower of Morgoth and a Maia would make him a uniquely qualified user of the ring, probably better for Morgoth even than Sauron. For Sauron had set up a temple in Numenor to worship Morgoth, but he himself never truly believed in Morgoth’s vision and instead used his connections to create his own order. A Balrog, a spirit of fire, would simply burn down the whole world to glorify Morgoth.
@@TheLyricalCleric That's a good prediction.
Durin's Bane would have been the worst being to get the ROP because it was already evil, and a former ally of Sauron in Morgoth's service. The ring would be more likely to be more apt to DB's will sensing their former relationship, or simply because the ring sought out certain tools to use like men, and possibly a Balrog. The Balrog would most likely either use the ROP to consolidate its power in Moria or seek to conquer Middle-Earth, and could claim the allegiance of orcs, trolls, Nazgul, etc. nigh as easy as Sauron. The Balrog could also recruit or seduce dragons of the north into his service. None of the dragons left were as great as Smaug, but they were still very large and powerful.
Marvelous video! Very informative.
Even if the Free Peoples had decided to choose the 2nd option for using the Ring (use it to raise armies to fight Sauron), I wonder if they would have had the time to do so. It was less than 6 months from the time of the Council of Elrond to Sauron's assault on Minas Tirith. How long might it have taken for even someone like Gandalf or Galadriel to learn to use the One Ring well enough to raise such armies and draw off soldiers from Sauron's armies? It might have made the war longer but Sauron might still have defeated the Free Peoples.
Depends on whether the Ringbearer has the skill and mental power to mentally twist the minds of the weakest minded Orcs, and bring them over to his side. If so - imagine a very large part of Sauron's army changing sides in mid-battle!
@@timonsolus I wonder if Sauron's long history with Orcs, dominating them and even breeding them would have actually made it harder for a Ringbearer to break Sauron's hold on them.
@@timonsolus This is a good point because during the Disaster at the Gladden Fields, Elendur actually asks Isildur if he could use the One Ring to command the Orcs, but Isildur basically states that he can't. If Isildur, after two years, couldn't use it to master the Orcs, then I doubt any other mortal Man could. You would need someone stronger or they would need more time, which was obviously running short during the War of the Ring.
@@DarthGandalfYT : Well, I guess that just leaves Saruman then. Or maybe one of the Elves, maybe Thranduil?
My criticism of the use of the One Ring: I see no differences between the Sauron of the First Age and the Sauron of the Second Age.
The One Ring could be shown in a clash perhaps between Sauron and Ossë or even Eonwë (in some action not sanctioned by the Valar or Eru). This would demonstrate the danger of the One towards the powerful, of how Sauron could overcome them through the corruption of minds. But, we only see Sauron corrupting Saruman (and without a ring), and no one else.
The corrupted were those with "inferior" minds: Orcs, Men, Trolls, etc.
I believe Sauron could corrupt far more but never really got the chance.
Just about all the Ainur left Middle-earth after the War of Wrath. Before the wizards showed up, the only other "big ticket" targets were the last dragons and Balrog(s), which were both not easily accessible and not an immediate threat to Sauron. So it just made the most sense for him to target the leaders of Elves and Men.
Of course, we would all love to see how Smaug or Durin's Bane would have responded to Sauron's ring-enhanced influence.
@@saeedshahbazian9889 But I'm talking about Sauron using the One Ring in his hand to defeat, either with his increased power, or by corrupting his enemies.
Tolkien says that the One Ring helped him corrupt minds (as he did in Númenor) and control the Earth (natural phenomena, for example).
@@rafaelgustavo7786 Let's not forget that Sauron, with the one ring, was defeated by the Last Alliance. Both Gil Galad and Elendil brought him down. Eonwe and beings of the like would be able to contend with the ring. Saruman was an Istari, stripped of knowledge and power. He was not meant to contend with or rival Sauron.
@rafaelgustavo7786 yeah I got that as I sent the previous comment and I edited it to say something relevant lol
I think the reason is that the second age is mostly not detailed. But I agree that it would've been awesome to see more of the ring in action.
What we are told is that the ring grant powers based on the nature of the bearer. There fore the power the ring has at a given time based on who, if anyone, holds it. When it was in the Anduin for all that time or even with Gollum deep inside the mountain, it was more of a remote threat. Even Frodo having the ring, merely guarding it, keeping it secret, safe, unused keeps it powers muted, all though the threat that this could change in an instance if the ring is taken from him or he gives it to another bearer makes it a looming threat. However, if Gandalf or Aragorn took or were given the ring to overthrow Sauron the power of the ring would be much greater. Like Gandalf said if he took the ring, through him, it gain a power even greater. People talk if the ring enhancing the power of it's wielder but it's actually the other way around.
The Ring really was the true villain. Even its creator wasn't terribly different from anyone else who was drawn to it's promise of power.
Sauron was a villain in the First Age. Long before the creation of the One Ring.
The Ring was essentially an extension of Sauron, who was the primary villain in Middle-Earth in the 2nd and 3rd Ages.
These are things I know. I think my point was missed. Perhaps the One Ring is better labeled as the true threat as it's influence would continue to cause turmoil indefinitely. And while Sauron isn't influenced by the One Ring, he does need it to properly achieve his goals. So his dependency leaves him desiring it in a similar fashion to those who have been influenced by it. Causing further turmoil in his pursuit. An item that will corrupt anyone that possesses it should be regarded as it's own threat.
Another thing. Reading the books I've always been under the impression that if the Council had decided to use the ring it would have been Aragorn who was chosen. As a mortal he would pose less of a threat to his friends and allies. Second, since his ancestors cut the ring from Saurons hand and claimed it as his own by force of arms, it might actually work better for him as he had a legitimate claim to it. This sort of thing seems to be a consistent theme in the Tolkien universe. Aragorn was able to defeat Sauron in the palantir because the palantirs rightfully belonged to him.
“No sooner had he come in sight of Mount Doom, burning far away, than he was aware of a change in his burden. As it drew near the great furnaces where, in the deeps of time, it had been shaped and forged, the Ring's power grew, and it became more fell, untameable except by some mighty will. As Sam stood there, even though the Ring was not on him but hanging by its chain about his neck, he felt himself enlarged, as if he were robed in a huge distorted shadow of himself, a vast and ominous threat halted upon the walls of Mordor. He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows. Already the Ring tempted him, gnawing at his will and reason. Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dur. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be.”
I, for one, welcome our new agrarian overlord
Best re-envisioning of the LOTR based on this video: Saruman becomes Sauron's servant through the palantir. Doesn't get the one ring. Gandalf escapes him, does the Fellowship thing, and takes the ring for safekeeping when Frodo wants to walk to Mordor. Gandalf overthrows Saruman, then goes to Minas Tirith to 'save' the city but has to kill Denethor who resists him. The Witch King breaks down the gates of the city and at the same time Gandalf fights Sauron for possession of the ring. Gandalf defeats Saruman, making the ring his own, and making himself master of the Ringwraiths. Aragorn and Saruman arrive right after this occurs and are powerless to stop it. Aragorn repudiates Gandalf. End of trilogy. Next 3 books are about Aragorn leading the Rangers of both kingdoms in an insurgency against Gandalf and the transition of Saruman the White into Saruman the Grey, the leader the Valar always intended him to be.
Always semi wondered whether Gimli would've been a better ringbearer than Frodo. I know, I know destiny "meant to find it" only way etc, but the fact that Dwarves are extreme resistant to domination must count for something...
Lesser rings drove dwarven kings into wanton pursuit of material wealth and much evil came of it. I shudder to think of the one ring influencing Gimli in that direction
Gimli likely would have been the best choice if something had happened to all the Hobbits but Hobbits were in general better suited because few of them were ever really interested in things like power and ruling others.
The One Ring would massively amplify Gimli's initial distrust of the Elves, and would also make him hungry for power. He would likely want to make himself King under the Mountain, and king of all dwarves.
Random, but what would happen if you put the One Ring on a non-humanoid but still sentient lifeform, like a monkey or a cat (I guess you could put the ring around its tail), or even around an Ent's twig.
I could do it
Wouldn't wearing the ring give the bearer control over the Nazghul? Odd that Sauron could still control them without the One Ring.
nan ichir gelair!
Suffer me now
One has to wonder what would had happen should Bilbo gave the one to Thorin. He was already a very charismatic dwarf leader.
I think the One Ring would overpower Thorin's mind. At the very least, he would become a very evil dwarf, and would probably unite the Dwarves in a great war against King Thranduil and the Wood Elves - perhaps by digging a very long tunnel to reach the elvenking's halls. Which Sauron would be delighted about!
Once Thorin was of no more use to Sauron, the Dark Lord would simply send the Nazgul to take the Ring from him. Thorin would have no chance against the Nine.
I bet if Aragon got it he would eventually get a bunch of elves to…. copulate with some select humans so that he could have a near immortal army. (An army with very long life spans)
I get that throwing it into the ocean is bad because things can live in the ocean but why dont they just throw it somewhere no one can live like a volcano. One that isnt mount doom so its closer and not protected with enemies but still no one can go into the lava to pick it back up
Oh how about heavily guarding the path to the straight road then have Aule unforge it.
The problem is the stupid Valar dodging responsibility for one of their peers action.
If someone could wield the one ring, would they be able to control the ringwraiths? Or The Balrog? Or any of the nameless things?
What about Tom Bombadil? Could he have used the ring to dispatch Sauron?
I don't think this is a question of power level, but rather of nature. Tom is not on the same playing field as everyone else. He is not affected by the Ring at all, and shows only passing interest in it.
I believe it's said at the Council of Elrond that Sauron could possibly defeat Tom only after Sauron had conquered all of Middle Earth outside the Old Forest. That implies that Tom could defeat Sauron at any earlier time. But he really couldn't, because it simply isn't in his nature to get involved in such matters.
No. No one could have ever actually gotten him to do that. The One Ring not only didn't affect Bombadil; he simply had no real interest in it or Sauron. That's why at the Council of Elrond, the idea of taking the One Ring to Bombadil was rejected. Even if they left the Ring there, eventually Sauron would have come for it and Bombadil would have not been able to resist the full might of the Dark Lord.
@@istari0 , or Tom would have given the Ring to a squirrel on a whim, and Sauron would have found the squirrel. Which would be worth it for the image of the Nazgul desperately hunting for a squirrel. 🙃
@@isomeme : Why a squirrel, and not a magpie? Magpies like shiny things.
@@timonsolus , and that would be even more fun for the Nazgul to chase! 😁
First
To use the ring against Sauron
Nuh-uh.
Morgoth 🏃🏾
So can it be said that the desaster of the gladden feels was actually of great for Gondor and Arnor as otherwise Isildur would have become a terrible tyrannt.
In Unfinished Tales, Tolkien wrote that Isildur was going to Imladris on his way back to Arnor with the intent of turning the One Ring over as he had realized his error in keeping it. Of course, we don't know if he would have actually been able to go through with this but if he had then it seems likely that Gondor and Arnor would have not become divided as they did so soon after Isildur's death. Possibly Arnor might have even not fallen.
@@istari0 but, than just Eltond would have had it which would be no better, because even he couldn't destroy it.
@@lukasmeier9245 Yes, Elrond could not have destroyed it either but it was specifically Isildur's death that led to Gondor and Arnor quickly becoming two separately ruled kingdoms as there was no High King for them. We don't know how events would have played out had the One Ring been kept in Imladris or some other location but there is at least the possibility that some method of destroying the Ring could have been found in the 1000 years before Sauron began his return. Or some other disaster could have happened.
Why did it have to be Mount Doom, and not some other volcano? In creating the One Ring there, did Sauron do something to it that made it capable of destroying the ring?
Mount Doom was not just another volcano. Melkor actually created it back in the 1st Age and it was a particularly corrupt part of Middle-Earth, made more so when Sauron decided to establish Mordor as his kingdom and use Mount Doom as a forge. There was no other place like it in Middle-Earth in the 3rd Age.
Use it as what? Use it as what?!
As Sauron would use it.
As a tool to influence the material world I think
I NEED to know!!!
@@lawrencetalbot8346 nobody knows exactly lol
Tolkien magic system is famously and intentionally vague.
Think of it as raw power. You have to learn to use it as you will. That's why only the very powerful have a chance of using it
I think he was implying wearing it on a certain part of your body other than your finger.
@@tathemrelag3123 : That could be painful. The Ring has the ability to change its own size at will.
Are the Three Rings of the elves evil and why weren't they dominated by them?
The Three are technically "good" rings because while they were created using Sauron's teachings, they weren't created with Sauron's direct help. They wouldn't corrupt the user, but while Sauron wielded the One Ring, he could still dominate the wearers of those rings, which is why the Elves took them off. They became safe to use once Sauron lost the One Ring.
What about the Balrog? Already evil and powerful in its own right.
What if the noldor left middle earth for valinor after the end of the war of wrath
What if durins bane was destroyed in the war of wrath
What if numénor wasn't created by the valar
What if Huan killed sauron on minas tirith the fortress city on the sirion
THey just had to get the ring to valinor where the Valar or even by then some crafty elven smiths would have the knowledge to destroy it. It's that simple. IF it can be made, it can be unmade.
The Valar would refuse to accept it. Their position (like it or not) was that dealing with the One Ring and Sauron was a matter the Peoples of Middle-Earth needed to handle. Of course, they did send the Istari to help.
What would happen if Eonwe wore it?
I think Eonwe, as noble and wise as he is, would reject it utterly.
He didn't even catch Sauron at the end of the first age (i believe he had the power to). Just said that he has to come back to be judged. I think it can be inferred that he just does what is commanded by Manwe, ie capture Morgoth and bring him back (which inturn would break his power). There was no other task.
So he would not take the ring
@@saeedshahbazian9889I do believe he would resist it. I just wondered if he had the same will that Tom does. That he would view it as a trinket. Or if he could actually increase his power, I think the former makes the most sense.
@@thomasalvarez6456 Tom is really weird. I don't think Eonwe has his sense of humor lol
Do Ainur even have a sense of humor?!
@@thomasalvarez6456 I thought only the Valar, Tom and Ungoliant would consider the ring as a mere trinket or disregard it. You think other Maiar could reject it completely?
Well, Gandalf did, didn't he? (Olorin)
I believe some of the Maiar would reject it. Some of the most noble and wise.
Sauron is an idiot. If he had forged a butt plug of power instead, they couldn’t have cut it from his hand and he would have been victorious, if slightly uncomfortable.
I could master the Ring. Most of you would become wraiths.
"I'm just built different".
I think Trump would be strong enough to use it. #Trump2024
trumps just a human, lore wise he’d just turn into a wraith. sorry my dude
@@juliangarcoa6090 So is Aragorn but he got a thumbs up
@@jackkennedy70 We don't know that. Tolkien himself was unsure. Remember that Aragon isn't entirely human. He has both Elvish and Maiar blood in him. Tolkien also states that intentions also play a role in outcomes. Aragorn is noble, selfless, and self-sacrificing. A human with less noble intentions would fall under Sauron 's control swiftly. This is directly stated by Gandalf himself.
Lol I think Trump has already got an evil ring
Biden Administration is using the one rung to flood the US/Mexican border with illegal immigrants.