It’s been a while since I read up on this, but I thought the animosity of Feanor and Fingolfin was mostly one sided (Feanor’s side). I recall Fingolfin going out of his way to build his relationship with his brother by not only accepting Feanor’s position of authority, but also never outright or openly challenging or disagreeing with him. He also personally offered to forgive Feanor of his actions in order to prevent his banishment but Feanor was too stubborn to accept it.
"High princes were Feanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwe, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions" - Of the Silmarils, the Silmarillion. I think that line makes it clear that both were at fault to a certain extent. But you're right that Feanor was by far the main aggressor, and that Fingolfin made multiple attempts to heal the rift.
" But it would still requires the Feanorians to remove themselves to the east of Belleriand, largely because Maedhros couldn't trust his brothers to not be assholes." = an Instant classic :)
What's to prevent him forging weapons and that might put him at similar power level to sauron during the LOTR? Remember this is the same elf who either himself or his line conceived of the palantiri, the silmarils, the dreadblades (that could combat Balrogs), tengwar script, rings of power, along with countless gems, jewelry, and armor. I see him being a major thorn in Morgoths side all on his own and one that he would undoubtedly try deal with first. If Feanor were allowed to come up with new weapon, artifact, or tool there's a chance that he could significantly tip the balance of power in the Noldor's favor divided or not. He forged the silmarils by capturing the light of the two trees. He could theoretically create lesser versions of the silmarils capturing the light of the sun, moon, and stars, new batches of palantiri, or something like a lesser version of the rings of power. Not to mention drastically superior weapons, armor, and tools with a mind devious enough to use them to there full effect. He might if allowed to grow in strength through these innovations become the single most powerful and prosperous elven king in Beleriand with grudge against Morgoth to boot.
It's an interesting thought. Feanor might eventually have ruled much of Middle - earth instead of Sauron, who finding himself eclipsed accepts the judgement of The Valar.
Such an underrated channel. I think your thoughts on Feanor surviving on spot on due to Feanor’s personality of being an ass to almost everyone. Also I like the theory of dwarves playing a bigger part in middle earth
Don't underestimate his hatred for Morgoth though. He could have found a way of breaking down the gates of Angband, and in the open field the Orcs were absolutely no match for the Noldor back then, so the siege would have likely happened anyway.
I think that Morgoth would have captured Fëanor, chained him to a chair on the slopes of Thangorodrim, and forced him to watch everyone and everything he cared about be cursed like Húrin.
ok this needs a “what if fëanor survived into the 2nd age” and so on btw I think that if fëanor and fingolfin went together to fight morgoth, morgoth would have lost. I mean those are the strongest elves that ever lived and by one of em slready kicking morgoth’ ass i think with fëanor they might actually won
Making a LOOOT of assumptions here. You grossly underestimate Feanor himself. Not to say he would singlehandedly compensate for the lack of cooperation (while he was really OP). But 1) Cooperation might still happen, just unwillingly. Mistrusting temporary allies against a common enemy is not as good as a wholesome alliance but it may still work. 2) Feanor might have burned the ships just to relieve Fingolfin from the Oath and giving him a way out. Be it true or not, Feanor might convince Fingolfin this was true, and hold him to his promise of following Feanor that he made back in Valinor. Many ways this may play out really. 3) Feanor's genius might actually find a way to breach the gates of Angband. He's a Maker before all else. If anyone could find a way to break down Morgoth's defenses, it's him. And he was incredibly strong, I'd argue stronger than Fingolfin in battle or at least on par. They might have had a much easier time killing Balrogs and Dragons with him alive. Truth be told, we can't know for sure, nor with a sufficient degree of probability. Feanor is a really volatile and multi-faceted character so it really could have gone in any direction had he survived.
Right. That's what I found so irritating about the siege of Angband. You'd think after the first 100 years the elves would realize they needed some way to breach the gates as it seemed Morgoth had no problem in creasing his army in his fortress and even feeding them somehow. I don't doubt Feanor would've realized that and devised some sort of engine to get past the defensive walls and gates.
I probably should've made it a bit clearer in the video; I don't think there's a way Feanor survives the First Age. He'll either die fighting Morgoth in one of the later battles or he'll die attempting to retake the Silmarils. He does not have a happy ending in any scenario.
@@istari0 honestly I agree, though I have always wished for something more epic. Though, I recognize the potency of the themes exercised in his rather foolish and ignominious death. Balrogs or not, it isn’t given nearly the fanfare of Fingolfin’s.
I love this sort of speculation. The events of the Silmarillion are so closely interwoven and so dependant on chance/fate/providence that small reversals can have large effects. Excellent points on Noldorin civil war and the tenuousness of the Siege of Angband. My favorite "if Feanor lived" theory is that, having survived the initial assault, he would have gone to treat with Morgoth instead of Maedhros, and gotten captured instead. Obviously Fingon's not about to come to his rescue, which would put his sons in an interesting position.
That was also my first thought; namely that Morgoth would have ended up capturing Fëanor although I'm not so sure Morgoth would have hung him from a cliff.
I'm not sure. Fingon would have saved him anyway, in the end. But losing his hand and being saved by Fingon would have humbled him a lot. The problem is Fëanor would not have accepted to talk with Morgoth because Morgoth killed his father. The problem for the Elves is, without Fëanor, they would lose a powerhouse; Morgoth would be forced to spend MUCH more power to defeat him and everything he would come up with if he didn't die. The real problem would be Thingol. Because Fëanor is the main person responsible for the kinslaying of the Teleri. BTW, if Fëanor defeated Morgoth and recovered the Silmarili, he and his sons would still be unable to hold them because of their actions. And instead of stealing the Silmaril from Morgoth Beren would need to steal it from Fëanor.
Feanor while certainly a great smith and contributed to the Elves, he is honestly a huge problem. He is the source of the kinslaying, and he also makes his sons carry on his do whatever it takes to get the Silmarill back. I can’t imagine that he would have had any good influence over the history of Arda. It’s unfortunate that he isn’t slayed when he steals the boats of the Teleri. It’s kind of amazing to me that the Ainur didn’t subdue him once they realized that he was on a destructive path following the death of his father and the stealing of the Silmarill.
The ainur couldnt directly intervene with the children of eru, they couldnt bring any harm or obstruction to them. Its why the Valar had to call on eru to deal with the numenorians. They could have turned the numenorians to dust but werent allowed to by Erus decree. So they could advise and warn the noldor but not actively prevent them from doing anything.
@@akeelyaqub2538 that’s a great point! I wasn’t thinking about their interference being limited and mainly observing Arda except In limited cases, but Faenor isn’t a big enough threat for their interference.
He is both a huge problem and a huge solution. I don't understand why people leave out the second quality. Without his extreme qualities and decisions morgoth would have destroyed middle earth. Heck, you could even argue that feanor making the silmarils is what initially doomed morgoth because he messed with the wrong elf. There's a reason why tolkien maintains, even after all his mistakes that he was the greatest of the children of illuvatar because of the sheer amount of impact his actions had on middle earth. You can hate him all you like but give the dude his due, you don't get to defeat a god by having a nice agreeable personality and smiling with everyone else.
Had Fëanor (and Elves in general) survived until Beren and Lúthien showed everyone how it's done, I wonder what would have changed. Thingol gets to wear a silmaril and I doubt Fëanor's might could have overcome the Girdle of Melian and it doesn't seem like fate favours Fëanorians to posses said gem. Thus I'd say Thingol dies insulting some Naugrim and the silmaril passes to Lúthien. I don't recall the exact words but I quite sure that the sons of Fëanor wouldn't dare assault them but I'm not sure if Fëanor's passion/obsession couldn't get the better of him.
Seem to recall the moment Thingol voiced his desire for a Silmaril, the Doom of Mandos broached onto Doriath. Once that happened, the Girdle of Melian was no longer effective.
@@pjtorresjr no, that's not how that happened. The girdle of melian wasn't rendered ineffective until Melian left broken hearted after the death of Thingol.
@@pjtorresjr yeah what the other guy said. The fate was set upon Doriath, which is why Thingol dies by the hands of the naugrim, but the girdle itself doesn’t disappear until his death and Melian’s flight.
@@aesir1ases64 except he did… lol Morgoth, via his balrogs, literally stopped Fëanor and he was so arrogant and obstinant that he got himself killed for essentially zero tangible accomplishment.
Crazy what if moment here, and this is just for the fun of speculation and nothing else, as others have posited before me: what if Fëanor is captured at the faux peace (which perhaps he attended even though there would be no possible way he would survive the fight with the balrogs sans serious injury, so he would have been easier to capture. Also even if very hurt, Fëanor, I think wouldn’t allow any other to take his place at such a meeting. Also this whole hypothetical relies on Fëanor even accepting such an offer to meet, which seems highly unlikely even if done so with treacherous intent.) talks like Maedhros was, and then Fingolfin is the one to scale the peak and rescue him, most likely admonishing him thoroughly. Would this contribute to cooperation or just avoid full scale conflict? Also how might tortures under Morgoth’s care effect Fëanor?
there is of course the possibility that using his incredible skill for crafting and some breathing room, that feanor might invent a superweapon to blow the walls of angband to pieces, but short of that, i have to agree that this would probably be a much worse outcome.
I haven’t yet watched this, so here’s what I think. Honestly, if Fëanor didn’t die in the way he did, I feel he’d just die in the next major confrontation. If he survived that, he’d die in the next one. Bottom line, I don’t think he’d make it out of the first age.
in stories and shows, when someone does an 'unforgiveable' thing, like in this case the burning of the Teleri ships, it's like 'morally' that character has to perish to balance the scales, even if they managed a thing or two towards redemption before perishing.
Putting it the other way round you could regard Feanor's death as an altruistic suicide. He'd already proved his unfitness for kingship, and perhaps he recognised this on some level
I enjoyed it a lot! It is amazing to listen to essays that treat my favourite characters as real people with real motivations (not an old legend they are described as in the book), so they feel so alive! And I loled when it came to Fingolfin and Feanor not sharing much love really :D I wish I understood why Feanor burned the ships though, if was a psychotic move really, out of the blue....
i think its possible that Fëanor pulls a Fingolfin and calls out Melkor for a 1v1.personally i think he would do better then his brother did but would still die.
I think that the most probably scenario is that when the two host met they would destroy themselves. Resulting in the victory of Fingolfin host but with great casualties
In my opinion I think because Utumno (or at least the site of it's ruins, probably long since buried after many, many thousands of years after they were destroyed by the Vala and Maia) was so far away from civilisation, both then before the First Age, and later during the First Age, that the Valar would just come down and stomp all over Utumno deeming it far away from the Elves to be of no harm to them. Non-interventionist approaches became more typical of the Vala and Eru, though I think the First Age is 'border line' enough to have them come in an help. After all, the argument could be made that if the Noldor 'repented' they'd have to go back the way they came - which Melkor could cut off from Utumno. In this sense, it isn't particularly fair on the Elves to just leave a rebuilt Utumno sitting there spewing out serpents, Orcs and other monsters at a growing rate. Most likely they'd just go and destroy it again but refuse to win the entire war for the Noldor, passive aggressively sitting and watching the unfolding tragedy in Beleriand as kingdom after kingdom collapses and many tens of thousands of Noldor Elves perish. To be honest, the whole morality structure in Tolkien is a bit, iffy. There is this determinate and definite, unquestionable God, with shards of his divine being (the Valar, his 'Children'/First Born, children of the mind) being extensions and aspects of him taken to their extremes as deities in their own right. Of course the Maiar are the angels beneath the demi-gods/archangels represented in the Valar. However, if Utumno was allowed to exist, with Sauron presumably stationed at Angband as the auxiliary/secondary stronghold, then I'd imagine that the situation to spiral out of control too fast for the Eldar to contain. When the Valar and Maiar destroyed Utumno, the Elves could feel the tremors and quakes of the battle of immense, divine powers, many miles away. It was at a point when they were only just awoken, and pretty defenceless against the power of Melkor. Logically, if the celestial beings fought a literal 'War for the Sake of the Elves' when they were almost defenceless, their cultures forming and taking shape but their prowess in war being non-existent right at the beginning of their history, then you'd expect similar motivations to spur the Valar on to save the Elves in Middle Earth from simply being scoured off the map. After all, the War of Wrath was essentially the desperate cries for help of the dwindling Noldor, via Earendil the Mariner bravely reaching the Undying Lands, against all hope, *finally* being heard out. At several points along the way, there were appearances by Vala such as Ulmo, appearing to particular characters from The Silmarillion. The Doom of Mandos was upon the Noldor, and one way or another, they'd lose and come to disaster. So the entire First Age is basically the curse playing out; the 'naughty Elves' getting their 'comeuppance' - though it's kind of harsh to view it in such terms (but that is literally what is happening) The moment Feanor went off to Middle Earth, defying warnings to the contrary, calamity was set in motion. But in a way, this whole process of teaching the Elves some grand lesson over centuries, was kind of messed up. Arguably, the celestial powers could ride in and save the day whenever but they just let it carry on. The moral of the story is, that God has his way in this universe and even the most powerful men and Elves are just helpless in the grand scheme of things. Even all the might of the Feanorian Noldor, with all their allies, was slowly losing the war with Morgoth/Melkor. He was gradually beginning to overwhelm them - even without Utumno. Maybe the Vala would have pity on them and try and give them a fighting chance, by dealing with Utumno so it wasn't just _sadistically_ unfair (in the scenario where Utumno is remade) During the War of Wrath, the pleas of the Noldor were finally rewarded with the Host of Light (including literal air wings of Giant Eagles lol) and multiple Vala and Maia, along with countless Vanyar Elves from Valinor, surged across the Great Sea and helped drive Melkor's hordes back. But the Wrath of Wrath raged for 43 years nonetheless and shattered the landmass with the sheer powers being thrown around. The slaughter went on for decades as I say, and even many of the divine forces may have fallen. If Melkor was on the verge of winning it all within a few years had not the aid arrived when it did, then what he'd be like if he still had Utumno is pretty scary because the chances are, he'd have defeated the free peoples in Beleriand before help could even arrive. The Elves were therefore fortunate Utumno had been laid low long, long before the First Age. Alone, even the Noldor couldn't defeat Morgoth, and it took them several centuries to admit it. *Edit: P.S - Another thing to remember, is that even if Melkor did rebuild Utumno, the place would _never quite be the same again_ arguably, if you think about it. In it's prime it was practically the worst place ever made by the forces of evil, yet Melkor imbued his own power and strength into many of his works, and it just wouldn't be quite exactly the same the next time around. Not only would the vast damage and ruination to the structure be difficult to come to terms with as a repair project, but he wouldn't be populating it with quite as many spectacular beasties and serpents from the original way Utumno was. Maybe he'd fill it with hideous numbers of Orcs like before but there'd be fewer Balrogs now, as well as fewer this or that wingless serpent. Arguably if he had Utumno also churning out the Winged Dragons the situation could have been even worse for the Army of Light in the War of Wrath, even if they managed to actually arrive before it was just too late (which would be thrown into doubt if Utumno was also operational alongside mighty Angband) Until Melkor fills Utumno with his dragon hordes, then it won't be quite as scary as the place used to be. His winged dragon horde led by Ancalagon the Black, even temporarily pushed the Army of Light back, led by the Vala themselves. My guess would be that if Utumno was still operational and brought up to anywhere near how dangerous it was originally, then it'd be a game changer. Plus the Winged Dragons weren't even seen in Utumno so this would be something entirely new even for Utumno. That was a late war strategic reserve though and Melkor withheld them until everything and everyone else failed.
the thing with Feanor is that ALL elves after they die go to the house of Mandos, he didn't... i would say he had the same fate as mortal men, which is unknown...
He did go to The Halls according to Tolkien Gateway, but was not reincarnated as most elves are. I think the idea is that his spirit was too fiery to submit to incarnation. But he still has an important role to play in the history of Arda according to Elvish mythology.
@@alanpennie8013 you mean Feanor?... yes Melkor killed him, but Mandos couldn't hold his spirit, he was too strong-willed...("For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him." ― Quenta Silmarillion, "Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor")...funny on how the mightiest elf , kind of had the same fate as men , its my opinion that Faenor was given by ERU the "gift of men" (Ilúvatar willed that the spirits/hearts of Men are not content within Arda, and find no rest therein, and therefore seek beyond the world and its confines. They are not bound to the Circles of the World, as the Elves and all other creatures of Arda are bound to the Earth. The spirits of Men truly leave the physical world, and do not return. Thus their fates are completely sundered from that of the Elves, who do not die until the world dies, unless slain by violence or ill chance, or by wearying at last due to the passage of centuries. But as the years grow long and Time wears, even the Valar will come to envy the gift of Ilúvatar to the race of Men, that of liberation from the physical world, and the inevitability of loss and sorrows that must come with this existence within Arda.) ...........that's my point of view ,
Feanors spirit is imprisoned in Mandos Halls because of the Kinslaying and Feanors spirit unwilling to repent. Only after the Dagor Dagorath Feanor will return from Mandos Halls, having overcome his own negative character traits and he willingly gives Yavanna the three Silmaril so the Two Trees can be remade/renewed.
Very interesting theory! I've never actually thought about it... Just a tiny-whiny comment: from what I've read about Elvish pronounciation, "dh" (as in "Maedhros") is pronounced like a soft "th" (like in "there" or "that"). Thank you for the video!
He'd probably take Ancalagon as a personal insult to his honour and then try and take him down alone, recreating the Monty Python Black Knight sketch and howling Leeroy Jenkins for old times sake. I'm just kidding (or am I?) if he made it past the First Age though, it'd be quite difficult for Sauron. While I agree with you that he'd most likely be slain at some point in the First Age (maybe he'd die to the Balrogs at the Dagor Bragollach instead, in a similar manner to so many in that battle, cut off and simply overwhelmed if not incinerated; or just as likely in the War of Wrath) the idea of him reaching the Second Age alive is incredibly tempting because he'd be an even more powerful Noldor Elf sticking around like Galadriel did. Either he or Fingolfin, would have been insanely overpowered in the Second Age and especially, dare we imagine, the Third Age. Those two are arguably the strongest/joint strongest Elves Arda ever saw (in a variety of ways; generally they did a lot of heavy fighting and neither died easy) He'd be like an island in the stream, noticeably stronger than all the Elves around him - even stronger than Galadriel, I think his half-niece, and of course stronger than Celebrimbor, his grandson. Without going off on a whole big tangent here about the waning of powers and the diminishing of many groups over time, tending towards a Tolkienian, Classical Antiquarian inspired view on the declining of powers in mythological tales, which Tolkien knew about full-well, let's just say he'd be invaluable in the Second Age as well as the Third. Sauron would legitimately have someone to be seriously scared of. Here are some implications of Fëanor being alive in the Second Age: - Can we just appreciate how Celebrimbor would be able to work with his granddad and they'd probably be cranking out some of the maddest shit in the Second Age? Celebrimbor and Sauron made the Rings of Power, so can you imagine Celebrimbor and Fëanor? Maybe even them two, plus Sauron? (though I wouldn't put it past Fëanor to see through 'Annatar the Fair' like Galadriel, his own relative, also did in Eregion) But that is getting ahead of the game in a sense because the early Second Age had a lot going on long before all those shenanigans. - For a start we'd have to acknowledge that Fëanor would probably have been the one to assume the Kingship of Lindon, in any scenario where he is there, chillin' in the Second Age. - Maybe just by existing in that world, Fëanor would f**k things up like you know, bringing the curse along with him and if he lived why not son of his more troublesome sons? This is obviously assuming and skipping past a whole bunch of stuff, and you could write it to happen in countless ways with this, that or the other son living or dying etc. Once you start playing around with the timeline, anything can happen. Will the Sons of Fëanor sack the Havens of the Falas? Will kid Elros and Elrond be taken pity upon and thereby experience life in such a way to lead to their specific fates later on? Shall Fëanor's very presence stop the worst excesses of his sons or would he _make them worse_ in the long run? As I say it could be speculated to happen in all kinds of ways. - So just for the absolute sake of the theory, of having Fëanor alive post-War of Wrath, knocking around and being annoying in Lindon, Lorien and Imladris, which does assume an awful lot had to happen to allow it, then what would he represent? A total and utter anomaly compared to most of the rest of the Eldar remaining in the lands of Middle Earth. He'd be grotesquely, hilariously more powerful than almost all foes on Sauron's side, and he'd be so dangerous to Sauron, that it'd reshape the entire course of the Second Age. We're not talking some petty difference between that and the real history; it's a really big deal. Even Gil-galad and Elendil combined, essentially 'killed' Sauron (Isildur just finished him off, they did all the real work, to put it another way) Now, all due respect to mighty Gil-galad, though Fëanor is doubtlessly beyond him in power. Only Fingolfin truly rivalled him and he was his half-brother. Two sides of the same coin, sort of. If Sauron had to contend with Fëanor, he'd be in trouble. Sauron was very powerful and the nominally if not literally greatest of the Maia (debatable but in general, yes, though others were better in different specific ways and there were at least four I'd say were in with a shout of kicking his ass in a fight if things got down to it) But anyway, yes Sauron is a tremendously powerful adversary and the fact he killed Gil-galad with such brutality and relative ease (not saying it was technically easy, just that it wasn't exactly the hardest fight in Sauron's life up to that point; see Huan), does indicate a true nightmare. We all know how dangerous Sauron is in the Third Age. The exact same phenomenon going on with Galadriel, the Balrog and other rarely powerful relics in the Third Age, make them disproportionately dangerous and immense in their relative power. Sauron was strong in the First Age, yes, but still just one of many lieutenants of Melkor (his best, this is true, though still not so special that he was invaluable) In the Second Age his power was the stuff of nightmares even for the High Elves, but not insurmountable (as the War of the Last Alliance proved) In the Third Age? Sauron had lost the One Ring yes, though assuming he hadn't, he'd have just dominated the Third Age in a scenario where the free peoples lose the War of the Last Alliance. If he survived the war _with_ the One Ring (a scenario which is often overlooked I must say) then no doubt the Elves would try and hunt him down to the end of the Earth, but if he managed to escape, then who knows what else he'd get up to. This isn't to say Sauron can't kill Fëanor outright, he would just struggle with it (if a pissed off Balrog-gang was what was required to bring him down, then I'm not going to say Sauron will have it easy) Pretty sure Sauron would have more than met his match in Fëanor as a combatant. He'd match him. Ultimately, Fëanor being around in the Second Age begs a lot of questions and makes you have to think of the timeline a lot because his very presence in certain times and places would tip things on their heads potentially, especially if he also had his sons around with him. Would he die in the War of the Elves and Sauron? Would Fëanor absolutely lose his shit if Celebrimbor was killed and treated the way his corpse actually was in the history of the Second Age, or would he save him? Pretty sure the two of them together could take Sauron on (though maybe not his entire army with him; not that they'd be alone) If Elrond even is at Imladris (if it was even built in the first place?) then maybe they'd have a frosty relationship and he wouldn't be entirely welcome there (especially if what happened to the Havens of the Falas, _did_ occur in the timeline) - Galadriel would be forced to deal with more creepy half-uncle shenanigans from Fëanor (cue Fëanor loitering around Lorien trying to get Galadriel to send him 3 strands of her golden hair, and raging when she rejects him and generally just being uncomfortably annoying to all concerned) He'd probably be giving mad evils to Celeborn constantly (cut to Fëanor awkwardly, creepily standing outside Lorien, serenading Galadriel with a boom box on his shoulder and using a squeaky microphone to try and woo Galadriel, Wedding Singer style, while she has a nervous breakdown pretending she isn't home) That is what the Balrogs ironically stopped from happening think about it :p - Fëanor _most likely_ would piss someone off too far in either the Second or Third Age. I'd be really intrigued to see his relationship with the Numenoreans and their offshoot successors in Gondor and Arnor. Like, seriously, if he had a positive relationship with Gondor the world of men would be in a far better shape and maybe he'd visit Osgiliath and make it even more glorious. But the thing is, Fëanor is just too much of an asshole to trust not to piss someone off. Someone would probably throw a cow pat at him Joffrey style one day and he'd go all DEUS VULT magna-sperg on the lot of them. Figurative cow pats or literal cow pats, he'd piss someone off enough to trigger incidents so to speak. I can imagine his ego clashing with that of Ar-Pharazon the Golden's during the timeline of the Akallabeth, and being like 'lol you're being played by Sauron in disguise but maybe I won't tell you so my main rival in the region is destroyed :) ' that is one idea. Another would be for Fëanor to try and save Numenor, but ultimately fail and either die trying or to just survive. If it was him leading the War of the Last Alliance (though I suspect the military strategy and timelines of the wars would change considerably if he was around, on leadership alone) then he'd probably just kick Mordor's arse even harder than Elrond and Isildur (and the others) did. I'm guessing that Fëanor would fight Sauron _alone_ and very likely win.
- Additionally, if Fëanor was around, would the Istari wizards even be sent? I think this depends on how responsibly he behaved or not. For instance, he might just not give a flying fook about the plight of the free peoples, and selfishly pursue his own aims (cough Galadriel, cough) Though, in fairness, he had such an enlarged hate boner for Melkor, that _any_ remnant of the evil of Morgoth, which Sauron was in every sense, as the bid baddie flying the flag for his long lost Master, the chances are he'd be on an endless crusade against Sauron regardless of what anyone else said or did. He'd probably be constantly attacking Mordor to the point the Elven allies of the Noldor would start to beg him to chill out so he doesn't get lured into a trap. The Wizards could still be sent, but perhaps to keep an eye on him as much as Sauron! A curious thought. I mean, he was still not entirely in the good books of a lot of people to put it mildly. Or his sons. Second Age and Third Age history with Fëanor plus the Fëanor Avengers ensemble, is this whole other version of the story and the worlds in question. Yes he is just one guy, and I'm not saying he is invincible or so powerful he'd be beyond making easy mistakes and just dying at some random ass point in the Second Age (maybe he'd die in circumstances similar - ish, minus the Balrogs - to how he died in the real story, as in, maybe he'd get carried away, overreach and get cut off, surrounded and killed in battle?) Maybe Sauron would put his main effort into killing Fëanor? To be honest, he'd probably _need_ to. Eventually he'd probably get him. Fëanor would still be outnumbered, and find it harder to assail Sauron in Mordor, than the opposite. Yet if Fëanor is around, could Sauron even hide in Mordor long enough to construct Barad-Dur? Not sure he'd allow it. Fëanor would be like, 'NOT ON MY WATCH HEATHEN HERETIC!' **heavy breathing, edgy lad noises** P.S - Also also, the Palantir; I'd imagine Fëanor wouldn't be in a sharing mood when it came to _his_ creations, his masterpieces. He'd probably go to war just to get them back from anyone who happens to have them. If they refuse to give them back, shit would well and truly hit the fan (and yes, I'm aware that Gondor and Arnor got theirs as gifts and heirlooms going back far enough, but _not_ from Fëanor himself) Most likely, he wouldn't want to keep them all in one place either so mayhaps he would share a few lesser Palantiri out, but still. The master Palantir will be with him. Gondor and Arnor without their history with the Palantir, for instance, would be curious. Maybe Steward Denethor II wouldn't have gone 'mad' (or at least, started to go mad when we find him in the ROTK) among many other things. Fëanor is just this whole other level of drama I don't think the Second Age or Third Age can handle lol let alone his combined sons.
Les illustrations de Jenny Dolfen sont sympa, mais il est bien spécifié que les elfes de la maison de Finwë (Noldor) sont grands, ont la peau blanche et arborent de.....longs cheveux foncés, souvent noirs, malgré certaines exceptions(chatain clair, blond)....
Considering his character and talents isn't it possible-even probable-that Feanor becomes the elven dark lord? He is willing to do anything to accomplish his goals and in the corrupting environment of middle earth could only have become worse. As Gandalf says "even Sauron was not evil in the beginning,"
Improbable because he's dead, but could he have become a Dark Lord? I don't really think so. I think he could've become a tyrant, many times worse than Thingol. I say this because he was driven by his passions, rather than a desire for power. I don't think he would've sought out domination, but I think he wouldn't hesitate to deal with anyone who tried to thwart him.
@@DarthGandalfYT Good point. But had he remained in Middle - earth men might have sought his leadership because they were so impressed by his technical wizardry. We could see a version of Jewish mythology about fallen angels instantiated in Middle - earth.
My guess is that there would have been a clash between the two elven hosts with Fingolfin's winning due being larger and some of the Fëanorians having had enough of Fëanor's leadership already. Regardless of the details, I think the Dagor Aglareb would would have had a different name as Morgoth would have ended up defeating the badly splintered elves and gaining control of all of Beleriand by the end of the 1st century.
Well its kinda hard to argue with that. But id put word in for Ecthelion and maybe Ingwe. But lets be honest, if it wasnt for his bad temper Fenor is the mac daddy of all elves.
Feanor was the greatest, that was the source of his arrogance. Almost identical, in a way, to Morgoth being the greatest of the Valar. That's an important distinction.
2:15 "controversial figure" is a nice way of saying impetuous easily manipulated arrogant braggart. He was an archetypal example of maximum intelligence minimum wisdom.
It’s been a while since I read up on this, but I thought the animosity of Feanor and Fingolfin was mostly one sided (Feanor’s side). I recall Fingolfin going out of his way to build his relationship with his brother by not only accepting Feanor’s position of authority, but also never outright or openly challenging or disagreeing with him. He also personally offered to forgive Feanor of his actions in order to prevent his banishment but Feanor was too stubborn to accept it.
"High princes were Feanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwe, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions" - Of the Silmarils, the Silmarillion.
I think that line makes it clear that both were at fault to a certain extent. But you're right that Feanor was by far the main aggressor, and that Fingolfin made multiple attempts to heal the rift.
Bro, Feanjr made him track through Middle Earth Antartica, he would be pissed off
@@DarthGandalfYT What if feanor sent the ships back.
" But it would still requires the Feanorians to remove themselves to the east of Belleriand, largely because Maedhros couldn't trust his brothers to not be assholes." = an Instant classic :)
What's to prevent him forging weapons and that might put him at similar power level to sauron during the LOTR? Remember this is the same elf who either himself or his line conceived of the palantiri, the silmarils, the dreadblades (that could combat Balrogs), tengwar script, rings of power, along with countless gems, jewelry, and armor. I see him being a major thorn in Morgoths side all on his own and one that he would undoubtedly try deal with first. If Feanor were allowed to come up with new weapon, artifact, or tool there's a chance that he could significantly tip the balance of power in the Noldor's favor divided or not. He forged the silmarils by capturing the light of the two trees. He could theoretically create lesser versions of the silmarils capturing the light of the sun, moon, and stars, new batches of palantiri, or something like a lesser version of the rings of power. Not to mention drastically superior weapons, armor, and tools with a mind devious enough to use them to there full effect. He might if allowed to grow in strength through these innovations become the single most powerful and prosperous elven king in Beleriand with grudge against Morgoth to boot.
It's an interesting thought.
Feanor might eventually have ruled much of Middle - earth instead of Sauron, who finding himself eclipsed accepts the judgement of The Valar.
Such an underrated channel. I think your thoughts on Feanor surviving on spot on due to Feanor’s personality of being an ass to almost everyone. Also I like the theory of dwarves playing a bigger part in middle earth
Don't underestimate his hatred for Morgoth though. He could have found a way of breaking down the gates of Angband, and in the open field the Orcs were absolutely no match for the Noldor back then, so the siege would have likely happened anyway.
Amazing. You are the best lotr channel on youtube. Incredibly underrated.
True!
So true
I think that Morgoth would have captured Fëanor, chained him to a chair on the slopes of Thangorodrim, and forced him to watch everyone and everything he cared about be cursed like Húrin.
Feanor's early death was fortunate for everyone, including the mighty king himself.
If Feanor survived, everything would have been better, by far. He is the greatest elf ever by far
ok this needs a “what if fëanor survived into the 2nd age” and so on
btw I think that if fëanor and fingolfin went together to fight morgoth, morgoth would have lost. I mean those are the strongest elves that ever lived and by one of em slready kicking morgoth’ ass i think with fëanor they might actually won
I don't think Morgoth would have accepted the pairs challenge like he accepted Fingolfin's , he'd have at best swarmed them with Balrogs anyway
@@Marcusjnmc true
@@Marcusjnmc they would have wrecked those Balrogs though.
What if feanor sent the ships back
@@zayedbinimran957 Best idea. 🧠
Making a LOOOT of assumptions here. You grossly underestimate Feanor himself. Not to say he would singlehandedly compensate for the lack of cooperation (while he was really OP). But 1) Cooperation might still happen, just unwillingly. Mistrusting temporary allies against a common enemy is not as good as a wholesome alliance but it may still work. 2) Feanor might have burned the ships just to relieve Fingolfin from the Oath and giving him a way out. Be it true or not, Feanor might convince Fingolfin this was true, and hold him to his promise of following Feanor that he made back in Valinor. Many ways this may play out really. 3) Feanor's genius might actually find a way to breach the gates of Angband. He's a Maker before all else. If anyone could find a way to break down Morgoth's defenses, it's him. And he was incredibly strong, I'd argue stronger than Fingolfin in battle or at least on par. They might have had a much easier time killing Balrogs and Dragons with him alive.
Truth be told, we can't know for sure, nor with a sufficient degree of probability. Feanor is a really volatile and multi-faceted character so it really could have gone in any direction had he survived.
Right. That's what I found so irritating about the siege of Angband. You'd think after the first 100 years the elves would realize they needed some way to breach the gates as it seemed Morgoth had no problem in creasing his army in his fortress and even feeding them somehow. I don't doubt Feanor would've realized that and devised some sort of engine to get past the defensive walls and gates.
I probably should've made it a bit clearer in the video; I don't think there's a way Feanor survives the First Age. He'll either die fighting Morgoth in one of the later battles or he'll die attempting to retake the Silmarils. He does not have a happy ending in any scenario.
This video is gonna pop off, I'm sure!
Goddammit he's such simp material ugh
I would say he does not deserve a happy ending.
@@istari0 honestly I agree, though I have always wished for something more epic. Though, I recognize the potency of the themes exercised in his rather foolish and ignominious death. Balrogs or not, it isn’t given nearly the fanfare of Fingolfin’s.
The only way I think he could have survived was if he was the one who is ironcally straped to the chair at the top of Morgoth's fortress.
I love this sort of speculation. The events of the Silmarillion are so closely interwoven and so dependant on chance/fate/providence that small reversals can have large effects. Excellent points on Noldorin civil war and the tenuousness of the Siege of Angband.
My favorite "if Feanor lived" theory is that, having survived the initial assault, he would have gone to treat with Morgoth instead of Maedhros, and gotten captured instead. Obviously Fingon's not about to come to his rescue, which would put his sons in an interesting position.
That was also my first thought; namely that Morgoth would have ended up capturing Fëanor although I'm not so sure Morgoth would have hung him from a cliff.
Perhaps morgoth would have corrupted him into serving him instead
@@tomdeluca5946
Morgoth didn't have that power.
I'm not sure.
Fingon would have saved him anyway, in the end.
But losing his hand and being saved by Fingon would have humbled him a lot.
The problem is Fëanor would not have accepted to talk with Morgoth because Morgoth killed his father.
The problem for the Elves is, without Fëanor, they would lose a powerhouse; Morgoth would be forced to spend MUCH more power to defeat him and everything he would come up with if he didn't die.
The real problem would be Thingol. Because Fëanor is the main person responsible for the kinslaying of the Teleri.
BTW, if Fëanor defeated Morgoth and recovered the Silmarili, he and his sons would still be unable to hold them because of their actions. And instead of stealing the Silmaril from Morgoth Beren would need to steal it from Fëanor.
@@tomdeluca5946
Never!
There is another possibility: Feanor surviving due to help from someone else. That may also make him cool down a bit use his brain slightly more.
Feanor while certainly a great smith and contributed to the Elves, he is honestly a huge problem.
He is the source of the kinslaying, and he also makes his sons carry on his do whatever it takes to get the Silmarill back.
I can’t imagine that he would have had any good influence over the history of Arda. It’s unfortunate that he isn’t slayed when he steals the boats of the Teleri. It’s kind of amazing to me that the Ainur didn’t subdue him once they realized that he was on a destructive path following the death of his father and the stealing of the Silmarill.
The ainur couldnt directly intervene with the children of eru, they couldnt bring any harm or obstruction to them. Its why the Valar had to call on eru to deal with the numenorians. They could have turned the numenorians to dust but werent allowed to by Erus decree.
So they could advise and warn the noldor but not actively prevent them from doing anything.
@@akeelyaqub2538 that’s a great point! I wasn’t thinking about their interference being limited and mainly observing Arda except In limited cases, but Faenor isn’t a big enough threat for their interference.
He is both a huge problem and a huge solution. I don't understand why people leave out the second quality. Without his extreme qualities and decisions morgoth would have destroyed middle earth. Heck, you could even argue that feanor making the silmarils is what initially doomed morgoth because he messed with the wrong elf. There's a reason why tolkien maintains, even after all his mistakes that he was the greatest of the children of illuvatar because of the sheer amount of impact his actions had on middle earth. You can hate him all you like but give the dude his due, you don't get to defeat a god by having a nice agreeable personality and smiling with everyone else.
Had Fëanor (and Elves in general) survived until Beren and Lúthien showed everyone how it's done, I wonder what would have changed. Thingol gets to wear a silmaril and I doubt Fëanor's might could have overcome the Girdle of Melian and it doesn't seem like fate favours Fëanorians to posses said gem. Thus I'd say Thingol dies insulting some Naugrim and the silmaril passes to Lúthien.
I don't recall the exact words but I quite sure that the sons of Fëanor wouldn't dare assault them but I'm not sure if Fëanor's passion/obsession couldn't get the better of him.
Seem to recall the moment Thingol voiced his desire for a Silmaril, the Doom of Mandos broached onto Doriath. Once that happened, the Girdle of Melian was no longer effective.
@@pjtorresjr no, that's not how that happened. The girdle of melian wasn't rendered ineffective until Melian left broken hearted after the death of Thingol.
@@pjtorresjr yeah what the other guy said. The fate was set upon Doriath, which is why Thingol dies by the hands of the naugrim, but the girdle itself doesn’t disappear until his death and Melian’s flight.
Feanor would def attack whomever had the silmarills, not even the Dark Lord himself could stop his attempt.
@@aesir1ases64 except he did… lol Morgoth, via his balrogs, literally stopped Fëanor and he was so arrogant and obstinant that he got himself killed for essentially zero tangible accomplishment.
Crazy what if moment here, and this is just for the fun of speculation and nothing else, as others have posited before me: what if Fëanor is captured at the faux peace (which perhaps he attended even though there would be no possible way he would survive the fight with the balrogs sans serious injury, so he would have been easier to capture. Also even if very hurt, Fëanor, I think wouldn’t allow any other to take his place at such a meeting. Also this whole hypothetical relies on Fëanor even accepting such an offer to meet, which seems highly unlikely even if done so with treacherous intent.) talks like Maedhros was, and then Fingolfin is the one to scale the peak and rescue him, most likely admonishing him thoroughly. Would this contribute to cooperation or just avoid full scale conflict? Also how might tortures under Morgoth’s care effect Fëanor?
there is of course the possibility that using his incredible skill for crafting and some breathing room, that feanor might invent a superweapon to blow the walls of angband to pieces, but short of that, i have to agree that this would probably be a much worse outcome.
Love the quick little advice at the end of the videos.
I haven’t yet watched this, so here’s what I think. Honestly, if Fëanor didn’t die in the way he did, I feel he’d just die in the next major confrontation. If he survived that, he’d die in the next one. Bottom line, I don’t think he’d make it out of the first age.
This was amazing!!
in stories and shows, when someone does an 'unforgiveable' thing, like in this case the burning of the Teleri ships, it's like 'morally' that character has to perish to balance the scales, even if they managed a thing or two towards redemption before perishing.
Wow I never really thought about this what if scenario. Awesome.
Putting it the other way round you could regard Feanor's death as an altruistic suicide.
He'd already proved his unfitness for kingship, and perhaps he recognised this on some level
I have long thought about this. So thanks for the video
If feanor survived he would have major injuries for the rest of his life humbling him
This is a great video with great insight
I enjoyed it a lot! It is amazing to listen to essays that treat my favourite characters as real people with real motivations (not an old legend they are described as in the book), so they feel so alive!
And I loled when it came to Fingolfin and Feanor not sharing much love really :D
I wish I understood why Feanor burned the ships though, if was a psychotic move really, out of the blue....
i think its possible that Fëanor pulls a Fingolfin and calls out Melkor for a 1v1.personally i think he would do better then his brother did but would still die.
Great video.
This is a great video idea
I think that the most probably scenario is that when the two host met they would destroy themselves. Resulting in the victory of Fingolfin host but with great casualties
Keep up the great content 👏
Great video!!
Imagine feanor and fingolfin vs morgoth... i still think they'd lose but it would be epic to see
I think it's more likely there would have been a duel between Fingolfin and Feanor, one that may or may not have ended with one of them dead.
Feanor does survive. He's an Elvis impersonator in Vegas. I saw him! He's not really good at it though. B+.
Can't feanor get a redemption arc like ATLA Azula? Or is he doomed to be an asshole for all eternity.
What if Utumno was rebuilt and became Morgoths seat of power for the first age?
In my opinion I think because Utumno (or at least the site of it's ruins, probably long since buried after many, many thousands of years after they were destroyed by the Vala and Maia) was so far away from civilisation, both then before the First Age, and later during the First Age, that the Valar would just come down and stomp all over Utumno deeming it far away from the Elves to be of no harm to them.
Non-interventionist approaches became more typical of the Vala and Eru, though I think the First Age is 'border line' enough to have them come in an help. After all, the argument could be made that if the Noldor 'repented' they'd have to go back the way they came - which Melkor could cut off from Utumno. In this sense, it isn't particularly fair on the Elves to just leave a rebuilt Utumno sitting there spewing out serpents, Orcs and other monsters at a growing rate.
Most likely they'd just go and destroy it again but refuse to win the entire war for the Noldor, passive aggressively sitting and watching the unfolding tragedy in Beleriand as kingdom after kingdom collapses and many tens of thousands of Noldor Elves perish. To be honest, the whole morality structure in Tolkien is a bit, iffy. There is this determinate and definite, unquestionable God, with shards of his divine being (the Valar, his 'Children'/First Born, children of the mind) being extensions and aspects of him taken to their extremes as deities in their own right.
Of course the Maiar are the angels beneath the demi-gods/archangels represented in the Valar.
However, if Utumno was allowed to exist, with Sauron presumably stationed at Angband as the auxiliary/secondary stronghold, then I'd imagine that the situation to spiral out of control too fast for the Eldar to contain. When the Valar and Maiar destroyed Utumno, the Elves could feel the tremors and quakes of the battle of immense, divine powers, many miles away. It was at a point when they were only just awoken, and pretty defenceless against the power of Melkor.
Logically, if the celestial beings fought a literal 'War for the Sake of the Elves' when they were almost defenceless, their cultures forming and taking shape but their prowess in war being non-existent right at the beginning of their history, then you'd expect similar motivations to spur the Valar on to save the Elves in Middle Earth from simply being scoured off the map.
After all, the War of Wrath was essentially the desperate cries for help of the dwindling Noldor, via Earendil the Mariner bravely reaching the Undying Lands, against all hope, *finally* being heard out. At several points along the way, there were appearances by Vala such as Ulmo, appearing to particular characters from The Silmarillion. The Doom of Mandos was upon the Noldor, and one way or another, they'd lose and come to disaster. So the entire First Age is basically the curse playing out; the 'naughty Elves' getting their 'comeuppance' - though it's kind of harsh to view it in such terms (but that is literally what is happening) The moment Feanor went off to Middle Earth, defying warnings to the contrary, calamity was set in motion.
But in a way, this whole process of teaching the Elves some grand lesson over centuries, was kind of messed up. Arguably, the celestial powers could ride in and save the day whenever but they just let it carry on. The moral of the story is, that God has his way in this universe and even the most powerful men and Elves are just helpless in the grand scheme of things. Even all the might of the Feanorian Noldor, with all their allies, was slowly losing the war with Morgoth/Melkor. He was gradually beginning to overwhelm them - even without Utumno.
Maybe the Vala would have pity on them and try and give them a fighting chance, by dealing with Utumno so it wasn't just _sadistically_ unfair (in the scenario where Utumno is remade)
During the War of Wrath, the pleas of the Noldor were finally rewarded with the Host of Light (including literal air wings of Giant Eagles lol) and multiple Vala and Maia, along with countless Vanyar Elves from Valinor, surged across the Great Sea and helped drive Melkor's hordes back. But the Wrath of Wrath raged for 43 years nonetheless and shattered the landmass with the sheer powers being thrown around. The slaughter went on for decades as I say, and even many of the divine forces may have fallen.
If Melkor was on the verge of winning it all within a few years had not the aid arrived when it did, then what he'd be like if he still had Utumno is pretty scary because the chances are, he'd have defeated the free peoples in Beleriand before help could even arrive. The Elves were therefore fortunate Utumno had been laid low long, long before the First Age. Alone, even the Noldor couldn't defeat Morgoth, and it took them several centuries to admit it.
*Edit: P.S - Another thing to remember, is that even if Melkor did rebuild Utumno, the place would _never quite be the same again_ arguably, if you think about it. In it's prime it was practically the worst place ever made by the forces of evil, yet Melkor imbued his own power and strength into many of his works, and it just wouldn't be quite exactly the same the next time around.
Not only would the vast damage and ruination to the structure be difficult to come to terms with as a repair project, but he wouldn't be populating it with quite as many spectacular beasties and serpents from the original way Utumno was. Maybe he'd fill it with hideous numbers of Orcs like before but there'd be fewer Balrogs now, as well as fewer this or that wingless serpent.
Arguably if he had Utumno also churning out the Winged Dragons the situation could have been even worse for the Army of Light in the War of Wrath, even if they managed to actually arrive before it was just too late (which would be thrown into doubt if Utumno was also operational alongside mighty Angband) Until Melkor fills Utumno with his dragon hordes, then it won't be quite as scary as the place used to be.
His winged dragon horde led by Ancalagon the Black, even temporarily pushed the Army of Light back, led by the Vala themselves. My guess would be that if Utumno was still operational and brought up to anywhere near how dangerous it was originally, then it'd be a game changer. Plus the Winged Dragons weren't even seen in Utumno so this would be something entirely new even for Utumno. That was a late war strategic reserve though and Melkor withheld them until everything and everyone else failed.
the thing with Feanor is that ALL elves after they die go to the house of Mandos, he didn't... i would say he had the same fate as mortal men, which is unknown...
He did go to The Halls according to Tolkien Gateway, but was not reincarnated as most elves are.
I think the idea is that his spirit was too fiery to submit to incarnation.
But he still has an important role to play in the history of Arda according to Elvish mythology.
@@alanpennie8013 you mean Feanor?... yes Melkor killed him, but Mandos couldn't hold his spirit, he was too strong-willed...("For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."
― Quenta Silmarillion, "Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor")...funny on how the mightiest elf , kind of had the same fate as men , its my opinion that Faenor was given by ERU the "gift of men" (Ilúvatar willed that the spirits/hearts of Men are not content within Arda, and find no rest therein, and therefore seek beyond the world and its confines. They are not bound to the Circles of the World, as the Elves and all other creatures of Arda are bound to the Earth. The spirits of Men truly leave the physical world, and do not return. Thus their fates are completely sundered from that of the Elves, who do not die until the world dies, unless slain by violence or ill chance, or by wearying at last due to the passage of centuries. But as the years grow long and Time wears, even the Valar will come to envy the gift of Ilúvatar to the race of Men, that of liberation from the physical world, and the inevitability of loss and sorrows that must come with this existence within Arda.) ...........that's my point of view ,
Feanors spirit is imprisoned in Mandos Halls because of the Kinslaying and Feanors spirit unwilling to repent.
Only after the Dagor Dagorath Feanor will return from Mandos Halls, having overcome his own negative character traits and he willingly gives Yavanna the three Silmaril so the Two Trees can be remade/renewed.
Video idea: how could elven kingdoms function as a society? Economically especially?
Very interesting theory! I've never actually thought about it... Just a tiny-whiny comment: from what I've read about Elvish pronounciation, "dh" (as in "Maedhros") is pronounced like a soft "th" (like in "there" or "that").
Thank you for the video!
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Maybe I'll just have to jokingly refer to him as the "eldest son" in future videos.
Thanks
He'd probably take Ancalagon as a personal insult to his honour and then try and take him down alone, recreating the Monty Python Black Knight sketch and howling Leeroy Jenkins for old times sake. I'm just kidding (or am I?) if he made it past the First Age though, it'd be quite difficult for Sauron.
While I agree with you that he'd most likely be slain at some point in the First Age (maybe he'd die to the Balrogs at the Dagor Bragollach instead, in a similar manner to so many in that battle, cut off and simply overwhelmed if not incinerated; or just as likely in the War of Wrath) the idea of him reaching the Second Age alive is incredibly tempting because he'd be an even more powerful Noldor Elf sticking around like Galadriel did. Either he or Fingolfin, would have been insanely overpowered in the Second Age and especially, dare we imagine, the Third Age.
Those two are arguably the strongest/joint strongest Elves Arda ever saw (in a variety of ways; generally they did a lot of heavy fighting and neither died easy) He'd be like an island in the stream, noticeably stronger than all the Elves around him - even stronger than Galadriel, I think his half-niece, and of course stronger than Celebrimbor, his grandson.
Without going off on a whole big tangent here about the waning of powers and the diminishing of many groups over time, tending towards a Tolkienian, Classical Antiquarian inspired view on the declining of powers in mythological tales, which Tolkien knew about full-well, let's just say he'd be invaluable in the Second Age as well as the Third. Sauron would legitimately have someone to be seriously scared of. Here are some implications of Fëanor being alive in the Second Age:
- Can we just appreciate how Celebrimbor would be able to work with his granddad and they'd probably be cranking out some of the maddest shit in the Second Age? Celebrimbor and Sauron made the Rings of Power, so can you imagine Celebrimbor and Fëanor? Maybe even them two, plus Sauron? (though I wouldn't put it past Fëanor to see through 'Annatar the Fair' like Galadriel, his own relative, also did in Eregion)
But that is getting ahead of the game in a sense because the early Second Age had a lot going on long before all those shenanigans.
- For a start we'd have to acknowledge that Fëanor would probably have been the one to assume the Kingship of Lindon, in any scenario where he is there, chillin' in the Second Age.
- Maybe just by existing in that world, Fëanor would f**k things up like you know, bringing the curse along with him and if he lived why not son of his more troublesome sons? This is obviously assuming and skipping past a whole bunch of stuff, and you could write it to happen in countless ways with this, that or the other son living or dying etc. Once you start playing around with the timeline, anything can happen. Will the Sons of Fëanor sack the Havens of the Falas? Will kid Elros and Elrond be taken pity upon and thereby experience life in such a way to lead to their specific fates later on? Shall Fëanor's very presence stop the worst excesses of his sons or would he _make them worse_ in the long run?
As I say it could be speculated to happen in all kinds of ways.
- So just for the absolute sake of the theory, of having Fëanor alive post-War of Wrath, knocking around and being annoying in Lindon, Lorien and Imladris, which does assume an awful lot had to happen to allow it, then what would he represent? A total and utter anomaly compared to most of the rest of the Eldar remaining in the lands of Middle Earth. He'd be grotesquely, hilariously more powerful than almost all foes on Sauron's side, and he'd be so dangerous to Sauron, that it'd reshape the entire course of the Second Age.
We're not talking some petty difference between that and the real history; it's a really big deal.
Even Gil-galad and Elendil combined, essentially 'killed' Sauron (Isildur just finished him off, they did all the real work, to put it another way) Now, all due respect to mighty Gil-galad, though Fëanor is doubtlessly beyond him in power. Only Fingolfin truly rivalled him and he was his half-brother. Two sides of the same coin, sort of.
If Sauron had to contend with Fëanor, he'd be in trouble. Sauron was very powerful and the nominally if not literally greatest of the Maia (debatable but in general, yes, though others were better in different specific ways and there were at least four I'd say were in with a shout of kicking his ass in a fight if things got down to it) But anyway, yes Sauron is a tremendously powerful adversary and the fact he killed Gil-galad with such brutality and relative ease (not saying it was technically easy, just that it wasn't exactly the hardest fight in Sauron's life up to that point; see Huan), does indicate a true nightmare. We all know how dangerous Sauron is in the Third Age.
The exact same phenomenon going on with Galadriel, the Balrog and other rarely powerful relics in the Third Age, make them disproportionately dangerous and immense in their relative power.
Sauron was strong in the First Age, yes, but still just one of many lieutenants of Melkor (his best, this is true, though still not so special that he was invaluable) In the Second Age his power was the stuff of nightmares even for the High Elves, but not insurmountable (as the War of the Last Alliance proved) In the Third Age? Sauron had lost the One Ring yes, though assuming he hadn't, he'd have just dominated the Third Age in a scenario where the free peoples lose the War of the Last Alliance.
If he survived the war _with_ the One Ring (a scenario which is often overlooked I must say) then no doubt the Elves would try and hunt him down to the end of the Earth, but if he managed to escape, then who knows what else he'd get up to. This isn't to say Sauron can't kill Fëanor outright, he would just struggle with it (if a pissed off Balrog-gang was what was required to bring him down, then I'm not going to say Sauron will have it easy) Pretty sure Sauron would have more than met his match in Fëanor as a combatant. He'd match him.
Ultimately, Fëanor being around in the Second Age begs a lot of questions and makes you have to think of the timeline a lot because his very presence in certain times and places would tip things on their heads potentially, especially if he also had his sons around with him. Would he die in the War of the Elves and Sauron? Would Fëanor absolutely lose his shit if Celebrimbor was killed and treated the way his corpse actually was in the history of the Second Age, or would he save him? Pretty sure the two of them together could take Sauron on (though maybe not his entire army with him; not that they'd be alone) If Elrond even is at Imladris (if it was even built in the first place?) then maybe they'd have a frosty relationship and he wouldn't be entirely welcome there (especially if what happened to the Havens of the Falas, _did_ occur in the timeline)
- Galadriel would be forced to deal with more creepy half-uncle shenanigans from Fëanor (cue Fëanor loitering around Lorien trying to get Galadriel to send him 3 strands of her golden hair, and raging when she rejects him and generally just being uncomfortably annoying to all concerned) He'd probably be giving mad evils to Celeborn constantly (cut to Fëanor awkwardly, creepily standing outside Lorien, serenading Galadriel with a boom box on his shoulder and using a squeaky microphone to try and woo Galadriel, Wedding Singer style, while she has a nervous breakdown pretending she isn't home) That is what the Balrogs ironically stopped from happening think about it :p
- Fëanor _most likely_ would piss someone off too far in either the Second or Third Age. I'd be really intrigued to see his relationship with the Numenoreans and their offshoot successors in Gondor and Arnor. Like, seriously, if he had a positive relationship with Gondor the world of men would be in a far better shape and maybe he'd visit Osgiliath and make it even more glorious. But the thing is, Fëanor is just too much of an asshole to trust not to piss someone off. Someone would probably throw a cow pat at him Joffrey style one day and he'd go all DEUS VULT magna-sperg on the lot of them.
Figurative cow pats or literal cow pats, he'd piss someone off enough to trigger incidents so to speak. I can imagine his ego clashing with that of Ar-Pharazon the Golden's during the timeline of the Akallabeth, and being like 'lol you're being played by Sauron in disguise but maybe I won't tell you so my main rival in the region is destroyed :) ' that is one idea.
Another would be for Fëanor to try and save Numenor, but ultimately fail and either die trying or to just survive. If it was him leading the War of the Last Alliance (though I suspect the military strategy and timelines of the wars would change considerably if he was around, on leadership alone) then he'd probably just kick Mordor's arse even harder than Elrond and Isildur (and the others) did. I'm guessing that Fëanor would fight Sauron _alone_ and very likely win.
- Additionally, if Fëanor was around, would the Istari wizards even be sent? I think this depends on how responsibly he behaved or not. For instance, he might just not give a flying fook about the plight of the free peoples, and selfishly pursue his own aims (cough Galadriel, cough) Though, in fairness, he had such an enlarged hate boner for Melkor, that _any_ remnant of the evil of Morgoth, which Sauron was in every sense, as the bid baddie flying the flag for his long lost Master, the chances are he'd be on an endless crusade against Sauron regardless of what anyone else said or did. He'd probably be constantly attacking Mordor to the point the Elven allies of the Noldor would start to beg him to chill out so he doesn't get lured into a trap.
The Wizards could still be sent, but perhaps to keep an eye on him as much as Sauron! A curious thought. I mean, he was still not entirely in the good books of a lot of people to put it mildly. Or his sons. Second Age and Third Age history with Fëanor plus the Fëanor Avengers ensemble, is this whole other version of the story and the worlds in question. Yes he is just one guy, and I'm not saying he is invincible or so powerful he'd be beyond making easy mistakes and just dying at some random ass point in the Second Age (maybe he'd die in circumstances similar - ish, minus the Balrogs - to how he died in the real story, as in, maybe he'd get carried away, overreach and get cut off, surrounded and killed in battle?)
Maybe Sauron would put his main effort into killing Fëanor? To be honest, he'd probably _need_ to. Eventually he'd probably get him.
Fëanor would still be outnumbered, and find it harder to assail Sauron in Mordor, than the opposite. Yet if Fëanor is around, could Sauron even hide in Mordor long enough to construct Barad-Dur? Not sure he'd allow it. Fëanor would be like, 'NOT ON MY WATCH HEATHEN HERETIC!' **heavy breathing, edgy lad noises**
P.S - Also also, the Palantir; I'd imagine Fëanor wouldn't be in a sharing mood when it came to _his_ creations, his masterpieces. He'd probably go to war just to get them back from anyone who happens to have them. If they refuse to give them back, shit would well and truly hit the fan (and yes, I'm aware that Gondor and Arnor got theirs as gifts and heirlooms going back far enough, but _not_ from Fëanor himself)
Most likely, he wouldn't want to keep them all in one place either so mayhaps he would share a few lesser Palantiri out, but still. The master Palantir will be with him. Gondor and Arnor without their history with the Palantir, for instance, would be curious. Maybe Steward Denethor II wouldn't have gone 'mad' (or at least, started to go mad when we find him in the ROTK) among many other things.
Fëanor is just this whole other level of drama I don't think the Second Age or Third Age can handle lol let alone his combined sons.
More optimistic what if is, what if Feanor dies before burning the ships so Fingolfin leads the noldor through the entire war wit Morgoth.
Les illustrations de Jenny Dolfen sont sympa, mais il est bien spécifié que les elfes de la maison de Finwë (Noldor) sont grands, ont la peau blanche et arborent de.....longs cheveux foncés, souvent noirs, malgré certaines exceptions(chatain clair, blond)....
Considering his character and talents isn't it possible-even probable-that Feanor becomes the elven dark lord? He is willing to do anything to accomplish his goals and in the corrupting environment of middle earth could only have become worse. As Gandalf says "even Sauron was not evil in the beginning,"
Improbable because he's dead, but could he have become a Dark Lord? I don't really think so. I think he could've become a tyrant, many times worse than Thingol. I say this because he was driven by his passions, rather than a desire for power. I don't think he would've sought out domination, but I think he wouldn't hesitate to deal with anyone who tried to thwart him.
@@DarthGandalfYT
Good point.
But had he remained in Middle - earth men might have sought his leadership because they were so impressed by his technical wizardry.
We could see a version of Jewish mythology about fallen angels instantiated in Middle - earth.
What if Godolin never fall.
What if feanor sent the ships back
My guess is that there would have been a clash between the two elven hosts with Fingolfin's winning due being larger and some of the Fëanorians having had enough of Fëanor's leadership already. Regardless of the details, I think the Dagor Aglareb would would have had a different name as Morgoth would have ended up defeating the badly splintered elves and gaining control of all of Beleriand by the end of the 1st century.
Fingolfin was the greatest of the Ñoldor, change my mind
Well its kinda hard to argue with that. But id put word in for Ecthelion and maybe Ingwe. But lets be honest, if it wasnt for his bad temper Fenor is the mac daddy of all elves.
@@gamble9437 Ingwë was Vanyar, not Noldor.
true, I was thinking best elf in general I guess.
Feanor was the greatest, that was the source of his arrogance.
Almost identical, in a way, to Morgoth being the greatest of the Valar.
That's an important distinction.
@@AlyssMa7rin That is fair. I meant greatest more in the sense that Fingolfin is the best
8 dislikes were from the sons of Feanor.
2:15 "controversial figure" is a nice way of saying impetuous easily manipulated arrogant braggart. He was an archetypal example of maximum intelligence minimum wisdom.