What if Gandalf Had Not Fallen in Moria? Theory
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- čas přidán 14. 05. 2022
- Gandalf’s fall in Moria during his fight with Durin’s Bane changed many fates during the Lord of the Rings, but what if he had not fallen? Today, we explored what could have happened in such a case! Thank you all so much for watching, let me know your thoughts on this theory in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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I was actually expecting the balrog to show up to attack Gondor.
That would be scary. Since Balrogs are also Maiar, like Sauron, Gandalf, and Saruman, it wouldn't answer to anyone. After the fall of Morgoth, what Balrogs remained were essentially without purpose, so who knows what it would have done?
@@legionarybooks13 they were basically dragon tier. In terms of Melkior's ranks. Keep in mind, Sauron was the greatest among equals of the Maiar. So...he was stronger than the rest of them
@@johnnyscifi I would say that Balrogs were above dragons in authority if not power under Morgoth. After all, during the fall of Gondolin, Balrogs rode dragons into battle.
Imagine the poor cgi of that 😂😂😂
@@therealelderking5830 Debatable. Glaurung was certainly more powerful than most Balrogs, but I think there are greater dragons lesser dragons, and really depends on which dragon it is. Glaurung and Ancalagon the Black is an example of the "great" fire-drakes, as in the War of Wrath, many Balrogs were killed and posed less threat than the winged dragons.
He wouldnt have got the power-up from Eru Ilúvatar that enabled him to lay the smack-down on saruman
He wouldn't have gotten in that way. It could have happened elsewhere, in a different way, but...
That's not how the Force works.....
Saruman was already weak at this point.
Precisely.
It is a good theory overall. I just think Gandalf’s uses could be stretched further especially when he has the Lord of Horses to “show the meaning of haste.” I am not sure about the books but in the movies it is implied that Shadowfax was with Gandalf the Grey for many years previously. The thought being he could take Frodo on horse. I mean who knows if the Elves in Lothlorien could even loan them elven horses for the other members of the Fellowship to keep up. Approach Mordor from the North as you said. However, I think it would be a nice twist if Aragorn and Boromir took the Path of the Dead together for insurance to save Rohan/Gondor. If anyone wants to argue that Shadowfax wouldn’t be stealthy enough, Sauron thought Pippin had the ring at one point. Gandalf was able to get him from Rohan to Minas Tirith easily with no issues. I don’t imagine Northern Mordor would have much surveillance at all while Gondor was under attack. You are also talking about a Godly horse that stands straight at the site of the Witchking. Nothing until perhaps the Ash ground of Mordor is scaring Shadowfax away.
Boromir's betrayal would probably not occur, the Fellowship of the Ring would not break up. The consequences of this are that Rohan would not have the decisive assistance of Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Gandalf.
Aragorn would not have access to Palantir to challenge Sauron and make him hasten the assault on Gondor. Mordor would be much more garrisoned and Sauron's purpose would be much more the quest for the One Ring.
A guide like Gollum would probably be needed to find a passage to go the way to Minas Morgul. Most likely the quest for the destruction of the Ring would end in disaster.
And perhaps the oathbreakers would also never be freed
It makes me wonder if they were never released how would that make a difference if morgoth escaped the doors of night if the dagor dagorath happens in this timeline
I feel like Middle Earth is ultimately a deterministic place and that Eru would have inevitably ensured the destruction of the ring. That being said, I think there would be other consequences, death and destruction, and perhaps the legacy of Aragorn would have ended up far less joyful. Maybe humanity would have had to rebuild from the ashes rather than carrying forward the memory of the golden ages.
Pippen and Merry would not have been taken either (or all the Hobbits would have been - the end right there), so no Ents to attack Isengard and greatly weaken Saurman’s forces. Tho no telling if Theoden would have reason to head to Helm’s Deep without encountering the Three Hunters.
Its a fictional tale based on mythological beliefs of antiquity, it's not real in any way applicable to the world outside one mans goal to bring as rich a philosophy for the British people which we should applaud before your nonsense about what may have happened ?
Hey Yoystan, could you make a video talking about if Moria never fell to the Balrog and the dwarves still inhabited it during the war of the ring?
That and what if Gondor and Arnor hadn't fallen?
@@abhijitpawar1568 yes that is also interesting how they would be helping each other
What if Bilbo Baggins had been allowed to leave the Shire with the One Ring (17 years before the Lord of the Rings starts in earnest)? Let's say Gandalf doesn't grow suspicious of Bilbo's possessive behavior, and simply passes it off as him being influenced by "yet another ring of power."
Food for thought.
@@jacob4920 he would have been taken by orcs or possibly even the 9 if Sauron had them out searching.. he probably wouldn't have made it to Imladris
Boooo awful ideas 👎
"Needless were none of deeds of Gandalf in life."
This theory splits me right down the middle. On the one hand him surviving and staying the Grey is fascinating, where would they have gone? Would Gandalf let frodo go on his own? So much would change as a result.
On the other hand him falling and coming back had so many ripples that went out into all the world.
Still would want to see his wizards duel with saruman tho; knowing his treachery beforehand I think would make it a slightly more fair fight haha
Gandalf still would have been at a disadvantage, since Saruman was stronger than he before his 'reincarnation' as Gandalf the White. I do agree that that one action would have changed absolutely everything.
It would have been a disaster. Gandalf would have remained weaker. Saruman stronger. Rohan would still be under Saruman's influence. The Ents would never have joined the fight. Gondor without Rohan would have been defeated. I have no idea what route Gandalf would choose, either. Eru Iluvatar moves in mysterious ways. What happened was the only way it could have happened.
You nailed it!
I include all of this misfortune as Eru Iluvitar telling Melkor that his discord during the songs of creation was also part of Iluvitar's plan.
I reckon the route would have failed, Frodo wouldn’t have ever been forced to try and take the route he did, he would have remained reliant on advice instead.
Wait, why wouldn't the Ents have joined the fight? I may be wrong but I think that in the book, the Ents decided on their own that they should intervene in the war.
Agreed, there is a constant theme of divine intervention or providence within the story, many things happen that could not have happened any other way
But it's destroying the ring that matters in the end right ? Gandalf would've certainly eased that...
If Gandalf had been desperate enough to break Frodo's mind to force him to destroy the ring, he himself would've been as corrupted as Saruman, and likely fallen into evil himself.
Gandalf makes it very clear that his purpose was to guide, inspire and advise, not to lead or dominate others directly as Saruman did.
after all, the one ring is not the only way a Maia can become corrupted.
Illuvatar could make Frodo slip just like he did with Gollum
Well that's one of the main problems I think with this theory, added it's doubtful Gollum would ever really give up on getting the ring back. So, with that in mind, even with Gandalf alive Gollum may have still had some part to play.
@@MVargicIlluvatar didn't make Gollum slipped.
always enjoy your 'what ifs'
though may I respectfully offer a counterpoint.
The only reason Sauron launched his assault on Minas Tirith at that moment was fear of Aragorn in the Isengard palantir.
If the King had not revealed himself the Dark Lord would have no need to launch a premature strike.
(however, another point of contention might fix this)
in the books Aragorn is not planning to go to mt doom, but to minas tirith with Boramir. His public display may have the same effect.
(legolas and gimli are also origionally headed home, not to mt doom, though they are need no persuading to stay with the group)
similarly i don't think sauron would empty his lands if gandalf was with the hobbits. The hobbits can go 'unnoticed' but gandalf, as a miar would stick out to sauron. (you seem to even mention this in your version). not sure that would dissuade gollum either.
Love your idea of scaling the mountains; I've often wondered what the plan was.
Nice Video, but as far as I remembered, Aragorn wanted to go to Minas Tirith, and only because of Gandalfs Fall he also had to play Gandalfs role.
Just finished re-reading the books and you are correct. Though that was Aragorn's original intent, I also felt he seemed a bit hesitant and uncertain. Going to Minas Tirith and reclaiming his rights as king may have just seemed the most logical at the time, seeing how he had Anduril reforged before they even left Rivendell, and not towards the end, like in the films.
I feel like the big brain answer is, "LEGO Dimensions is the alternative."
But I think this is an interesting dilemma, as with the other half of the company evading the Uruks, Saruman's double treachery wouldn't be exposed, meaning the factions of Isengard and Mordor have more time to spend as "alies" and potentially benefit from each other's assistance.
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
I do not think that even at the end of things that Gandalf would force his will over Frodo like that. I do not believe it.
Also I think the ultimate saddest thing about this is that Legolas and Gimli never have their great friendship.
I actually think Gandalf may have been a detriment if he was along with Frodo and Sam on the way to and through Mordor. While he could have fought off the winged Nazgul perhaps, his presence would have given away the importance of the party to Sauron. The bearer's quest always lay in stealth, not in strength, which is part of the reason Hobbits were the perfect beings to bring the ring to Mt. Doom right under Sauron's watchful eye.
Great video, and theory. I like how it wasn't just another "This person would be corrupted by the ring, and everything would have failed" type videos. I love that you highlighted the point that there are many different possibilities of success, some more bitter sweet than others.
Here's a question I haven't seen yet: If Gandalf linked his mind to Frodo's in order to dominate his will, would that not also link his mind to the One Ring, which would in turn dominate Gandalf? Especially in the very cracks of Doom where its power is strongest, and Gandalf already being extraordinarily powerful and therefore very easily corrupted despite his pure heart?
Being more or less powerful has nothing to do with how easy it is to corrupt a person in Lotr. If it was Elrond would have been corrupted by the ring, and taken it from the man and he had remained untainted.
Very interesting point. Yes, Gandalf was unwilling to take the Ring because he knew he'd probably be tempted to use it to try to make all end well ... and then it wouldn't end well at all.
@@TheFifhtEye Galadriel?
@@JohnLoKie What about her? She's immensly powerful and yet she withstands the corruption. While on the other hand you have Sam, who wields the ring for a period of time, hasno power whatsoever comparable and also isnt corrupted. I'd say it just reinforces my point, no?
Also Galadriel, Gandalf, Aragorn soon to be king, Elrond, are an impressive powerful group of those who resisted the ring
Now this is an interesting idea awesome video Yoystan
I think that legolas would accompany Frodo tho, he's too skilled to leave behind in Gondor
Honestly, this has been an interesting topic, one I believe that not everyone has thought about before. That was good video Yoystan as Always!
I love that your alternate history theories are thought out. I think there are holes, but what I love about them is you point out why what occurred in the books was necessary to the plan of greatest happiness and that suffering has meaning in our lives.
Biggest issue i see with this theory is Sauron's motive for attacking Minas Tirith was removed due to Aragorn not confronting him with the Palantir which made Sauron think he had the ring and baiting him into attacking Gondor when he did. Not to mention w/o a false ring-bearer challenging him Sauron would still be gazing into Morder making it harder to make it to Mt Doom not to mention Saurons army would still be stationed there as in the actual timeline Sauron had emptied his lands during the Battle of the Black Gate and the Siege of Minas Tirith. Also one must wonder if Galdalf being there would actually hinder them since it could be implied that Sauron would have been able to sense him as the Wise were individually weaker but could detect Sauron during his time in Dol Guldur. I could envision Sauron setting the Nazgul loose on them then after confirming the Ring was with them either going himself or sicking his entire army on them. Even if everything went as the theory suggests at the point where the Nazgul would be driven off they would have told Sauron that they sensed the ring near the Ash Mountains putting him and all of Morder on high alert.
Yeah exactly what you said. I think Yoystan forgot the number 1 rule "One does not simply walk into Mordor".
I really love your videos, especially your "what if" sequences.
Maybe its dumb, but i draw a paralell line between them (your what if videos) and my life. I feel, that in my life, such as in Dear JRR. Tolkien's beloved canon, we all must endure many bad and dark things, end endure a lot.But we can see that maybe if something as dark happens, like Gandalf fall to the Balrog, that in the end it turns out to be better than we thought. So , that maybe today we feel that something terrible happened to us, but tomorrow will show us, that all will be good, and nothing happens without a reason. At least this is what i hope.
Thank you for your fantastic work, your videos and kind voice, and words mean a lot to me in these (for me) trying times.
Stay safe and happy.
Great stuff! I always find these fascinating
Appreciate this channel and all you do for us.
All that happened during the War of the Ring led to the same end, the defeat of the Dark Lord, proof that while there was pain, loss, and hardship on that journey strength and growth came only through that struggle. Had it been otherwise there would have been all the more suffering as demonstrated here.
Your narration and creativity in crafting these ‘what if’s’ are very enjoyable and thought provoking.
I see some of the main take aways of this scenario would be the near complete destruction of Rohan, but also a great redemption and character arc for Boromir. Also, the true final battle would take place with Saruman and his forces at Isengard, which makes for an interesting alternative climax.
While I can’t say it would be a better than the canon, it would be fascinating if this is how it actually played out.
Very nice!
Maybe a "What if Radagast was more helpful"?
Awesome! Great video idea as well and a question most Tolkien fans have likely been wondering about! 🥰
Thanks buddy! That means a lot!
🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩😎
Had Gandalf been present, Sauron would have detected his power approaching and foiled the attempt. Gandalf the Grey was weaker than Sauron and the home forces would have been too much for them.
Exactly. Gandalf only became THE WHITE, when he died, and spiritually returned to Valinor, before being sent back by Iru Iluvitar. If Gandalf doesn't die fighting the Balrog of Morgoth, this does not happen. He remains Gandalf the Grey. There is no way they would have traversed Mordor with Sauron being unaware of Gandalf's presence. Honestly, Gandalf perishing while fighting the Balrog was, overall, the best possible outcome of the quest. It simply didn't seem that way at the moment that it happened.
Agreed 100%.
@@jacob4920 hypothetically, if Gandalf was White when he entered Mordor would it matter? I don't think it would make a difference. Unless worse comes to worst and Sauron confronted them
While I agree that he would have probably detected the party, it was said many times that Sauron could not even imagine that someone would want to destroy the ring. He would most likely assume that they came to Mordor to assassinate Sauron or something similar. And with the ring in tow, the wisest move would be to lay in wait and set a trap for them once they enter Barad Dur, which of course they never would.
@@Dilmahkana If being the "White" Wizard mattered, then Saruman wouldn't have panicked, and tried to join Sauron on the first place. Obviously, from that reaction, we can infer that Sauron was more powerful than any of the Wizards, and definitely had more forces at his command.
And if Sauron detected Gandalf in Mordor, he would more than likely suspect the Ring was with him, in some fashion. A direct confrontation would have been inevitable.
Great video as always friend keep up the amazing work what a great theory I have just finished the Akalabeth section in unfinished tales again thanks for the great videos you have made over the years
Another great theory and telling. I enjoy your videos immensely.
Another well done video. Ty my friend
Amazing extrapolation - you are certainly a Master of the Canon to be able to create such a video.
Thanks to @dante v for suggesting this theory for many months! I hope it lived up to your expectations!
I've been wanting this theory for year's thank you
Great video!
Oh hey I remember suggesting this "What If" idea awesome! Thanks man!
Man What an interesting Theory to Take On, and it really would shake the world of Middle Earth, if he was still alive, not brought back to life!!! And Poor Frodo...
Thanks Mellon for this Epic Theory, Until Geography of our Boys/And Not Boy Sauron the Ring Crafters...Marion Baggins Out!!!
I love these “what if” scenarios. I also love your channel.
Your “What If” videos are always a pleasure.
Excellent theory, however I am glad that it ended the way it was supposed to. Sad as it was.
The books would only have been one book probably 😂
Gandalf is OP
Nice work dude
Nevermind
I love your WHAT IF tales, Sir
Never thought of that
You beat me to it.
This video was really interesting! I really liked the theory and the way you postulate how it would work out.
If you haven't done one about this yet, I think another interesting thing to think about would be: what if Faramir had gone to the Council of Elrond instead of Boromir? Book Faramir, of course.
I doubt, with Gandalf present at all time, the ring would have won over Frodo. Also, Frodo would have endured way less struggles with the others at his side, making it easier for him to overcome the ring.
Gandalf not being brought back might have left him too weak to face the witch king, would there be an encounter
Scaling unscaled mountain range through unknown route is very unrealistic theory. If you look at the history of mountaineering, every route is a result of several attempts over a period of time and a result of precise planning and help of locals. If one has any kind of realism in mind, this cannot be Gandalf's plan.
So what was it?
@@Dilmahkana Out of universe explanation is obviously that there was never a plan, because Tolkien knew Gandalf would die and there needs to be no plan. In universe? I think we need some magic cloaking to go through gate? Seems far fetched, but what else? I have seen going around mountains before, but that seems too far. I do not have an answer, honestly.
I would suggest that Gandalf actually did not have a plan.
Maybe he planned to sneak through the Black Gates while the hosts of Mordor marched out. Or perhaps he would have chosen the canon path of Cirth Ungol. I doubt Tolkien planned it that far.
Very fun theory here! Thanks Yoystan 😄👍
Love these theories.
Love this theory, as well as some of those in the comments. One thing I kind of disagree with, regarding Yoystan's theory, is Saruman. He was a double-traitor and Sauron knew it. No way would Saurman come to his aid. I think he would have kept Rohan as his puppet state, while continuing to build his army and let Sauron battle it out with Gondor, Lothlorien, and Dale, then turning his attention to whichever side won (most likely Sauron). It would not be ideal, but with no hope of finding the ring it was really Saruman's only option. In the books, Lothlorien did repel orcish attacks, but these only came from Dol Guldur. The dwarves and men in the north were defeated at the Battle of Dale by the Easterlings, with both Kings Dain and Brand killed, and the survivors besieged at Erebor (so I guess it was a strategic draw). The army that attacked Gondor was mostly from the Morgul Vale, and it took all of the Minas Tirith Garrison, plus the Riders of Rohan, and the coastal reinforcements / Grey Company of Dunedain under Aragorn, to defeat them. The bulk of Sauron's army was still in Mordor and didn't budge until the Armies of the West marched on the Black Gate. Saruman would be left to hope that the conquests of Gondor and Lothlorien would sufficiently deplete Mordor's armies. I think Sauron would have attacked Saruman / Rohan / Isengard before dealing with the north, as the dwarves and men of Dale were contained at Erebor.
A couple of side notes: As has been pointed out, Aragorn used Saruman's Palantir to goad Sauron into launching his attack sooner than he wished. However, in the books Denethor also had a Palantir, albeit no one knew about it until after his death. Would he have kept that hidden from Aragorn? Maybe not, seeing how in the books he's far more competent than in the films (he's still a dick, but a capable one). And if not, then Aragorn would have still been able to rouse Sauron into his premature assault on Gondor.
There's also the issue with Gandalf being a Maiar and Sauron spotting him as soon as he set foot in Mordor. I assume Gandalf would be aware of this, though it's impossible to know what his plan was. As wise as he was, he was having to improvise big-time as they went, at least in the books.
Awesome video!
Hey Yoystan,
thank you so much for yet another great video and elaborated theory.
I really like the storys developent you outlined very much and you story clearly is coherent. Unformtunatly to me it seems to be too positive given how I see Middleearth at this point in the third age. Even if Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, Sam and the Ring Bearer could have crossed Mordor unnoticed, which already seems rather questionable to me, I'm afraid there would have been hardly a way The Ring could have ended up in the fires. Because in my opinion especially if Gandalf would have broke Frodo's will this would have attracted The Ring so much more to him that he much likely would have become currupted by its power in the very moment he would have tried to force Frodo to cast The Ring into the fires.
So eventually would have happened what Gandalf fired most; he would have took The Ring, fight Sauron and become the Dark Lord himself.
Of course, your version seems to be more desirable and the breaking of Frodo's will could be seen as "collateral damage" but I can't help but question it. ;)
So at last thank you for making us think about it, I'm looking forward to your next lore and theory videos.
Cheers, Nina
Hey Yoystan, could you make a video of if the Balrog was able to take the one ring?
Thank you for these videos! They're wonderful to listen to!
Epic, this was great.
A very cool theory and a good analysis of what would've happened :)
Gimli would never visit the Glittering Caves and Legolas would never see the Ents and Fangorn.
Haven't watched the video yet. But if the Balrog fell and Gandalf the Grey didn't, I'm betting that the Balrog would've chased after the Fellowship later on, sometime after the Fellowship left Lorien. I believe this due to the Fellowship having the One Ring, and also the Balrog could've very well developed a serious grudge against Gandalf due to the bridge incident, enough to chase Gandalf down outside Moria. Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas and especially the Hobbits wouldn't stand a chance if they got attacked by the Balrog later on, if Gandalf wasn't there to save them in time. I believe Gandalf even if he wasn't pulled down by the Balrog's whip, would've still stayed in Moria to deal with or at least hold off the Balrog. There's a point in their battle where the Balrog after being covered in slime is retreating away from Gandalf, but Gandalf chases the Balrog instead of trying to get back to the Fellowship for example.
Also there's the threat of Saruman. Even if the Ents still take over Isengard and trap Saruman in Orthanc, Saruman would escape from Isengard much quicker, considering he'd still have his staff. Basically there'd be a Balrog AND Saruman problem(s) still. Saruman could then go to Mordor to help out Sauron in some way, making Mordor even more dangerous. I doubt Saruman himself would chase after the Fellowship to get the One Ring since he'd rather have his forces do that, but a funny corny nightmare scenario is if Saruman escapes Isengard fast enough to hunt down the Fellowship at around the same time that the Balrog is lmao. Or if the Ents never attack Isengard due to Merry and Pippin never going there, Saruman staying in Isengard and being left undealt with would also be bad, making Rohan unable to send aid to Minas Tirith.
Lastly Gandalf the Grey isn't as well suited to taking on the Nazgul as Gandalf the White is.
Based on my comment last night on a similar video you made, that was truly inspired storycraft! Yes, there were great losses but the ring and Sauron were destroyed. You’ve shown a way to meet the same objective without having a positive (questionable if Gandalf not falling is a positive since he then becomes Gandalf the White) alteration necessarily destroy the final objective. There were great prices to pay, and your allusion to Aragon and Gandalf trying to restore Frodo was poignant, but Frodo also paid in the main story. He was never really able to recover from the stabbing of the morgal blade and I sensed that he was also never really over being separated from the ring.
As soon as I see one of your videos it's a instant like 👍
Then the poor Balrog would have no one to play with on top of his mountain! :/
Poor guy :(
@@MenoftheWest oh I know! Incredibly disheartening
I'd thought of the Balrog encounter like a grumpy old dude stepping out onto his porch with a paintball-gun. "All you mortals get off my lawn!" (cracks whip on a wall). He was napping underground until the dwarves dug too deep the first time, and then didn't show up in pursuit of The Fellowship until Orcs made a ton of noise attacking and pursuing the fellowship. "Ah, a fellow old-dude with magic! Our battle will be legendary!"
Great video indeed, I've been wondering about this for quite a while, but never really thought I'd find such video for it.
I wonder if you could shine a light on wether the "Black Riders" could show their true selves (Ghostly, fast killing machines as seen in Dol Guldur) and how is that "secrecy" was important to Sauron. I can't imagine anyone except Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel (not Saruman cuz he's corrupted now) would be able to even harm them? Wouldn't they have been the most pain in the ass? They could easily outmatch Aragorn atop Weather Top..
Men of the west can you make a somewhat hard theory, were Morgoth uses successful strategies to defeat the Elves and Valar and conqueror Arda with a representation of the way this happens
Would greatly appreciate it and thank you
Some quick thoughts:
1. I suspect the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and siege of Gondor have been a good bit later, given that Pippin and Aragorn would not have handled the Orthanc stone. Sauron would have more time to gather his forces, given as far as he knew that no one had claimed the Ring for themselves yet.
2. Gollum is missing. Even with Gandalf and Aragorn accompanying Frodo, I think he'd have stalked them all the way to Mount Doom where he'd have played the same role. He might even have tried to take it earlier (if ever Frodo found himself unwatched for even a moment) and been captured, acting as a guide. I suspect it would have been impossible to cross into Mordor unseen without knowledge of its hidden passages, and perhaps Gandalf was hoping to find some way in by chance or simply push through the mountains... but that seems unlikely to succeed, so they may have had to follow Gollum regardless.
3. Saruman's doom was probably still sealed from the moment the Fellowship set out (as in the original tale). The Nazgul discovered his treachery (lying about the Shire) when they found Grima. In this timeline, Saruman probably conquers Rohan easily, but then it would be in his best interests to fortify his holdings and try to capture the Ring. But since the Ring would quickly pass beyond his reach after the Fellowship escaped his orcs, he was doomed no matter who won the War of the Ring.
Awesomr, I really like the move to go over the ash moutain, also Gandalf breaking Frodo makes absolute sense, only the Nazgul leaving that group alone didn't make much sense to me, at least they'd have sent a strong orc force to intercept imho
This was almost certainly possible in the Jackson adaptation as he wasn’t pulled down immediately by the Balrog’s whip but was able to grab onto the rocks and they could have pulled him up as the orc archers still afraid of the Balrog hadn’t arrived yet. At the very least, they could have _tried._
But no, Boromir was playing the long game and realised he had the best chance of obtaining the ring if Gandalf was out of the picture, and just got lucky everyone else let him get away with it. 😂
Do you think Boromir thought it all through at that moment?
But from time to time I wonder if Gandalf didn't at least half intentionally let go of the stone he got hold of...
Great video
It's likely that it would have gone down similar to that but with one key difference: Aragorn would have gone to Gondor with Boromir, Legolas, Merry, & Pippen. I think that taking the Sword of Kings back to Minas Tirith was Aragorn's intention all along, and he would've realized that he would be of little help in Mordor. If the group was discovered one more warrior wouldn't make much difference, and in Gondor, he could be of much more help to the Free Peoples.
where to find the illustrations displayed on the video? especially those that are shown in 1:43 and 3:04?
A few disconnected thoughts:
- You're right that the Balrog's living on in Moria would have prevented the Dwarves from ever reclaiming it, but that fact, in turn, lends itself to two insights. First, that the prophecy of the Dwarves' return may have preordained the balrog's destruction and indirectly, Gandalf's fall in order to amke ti happen. The second is that the Balrog might have resurfaced if Gandalf had survived, since he would not have pursued it in a fight to the finish and ultimately killed it, and that meant that it could have returned in the same capacity as they had fearerd Smaug would: as Sauron's living weapon, perhaps particiapting in the assaults on either Lorien or Erebor. That would be bad.
- If Gandalf had not gone to Gondor to help lead its resistance, then it would have been a great opportunity for the plot twise that you suggested many months ago: "Arwen Goes South." She might have fulfilled a lot of the same purposes that Gandalf did, in the same position. Just think about it.
- Third, that the picture you used in the climax at Sammath Naur suggests another way that the Ring could have been destroyed when Frodo and all else failed; Gandalf could have simply "detonated" the mountain, as it did when the Ring was destroyed anyway, annihilating it at the cost of their several lives. That would have changed the aftermath of the War of the Ring considerably!
Here's an interesting What if to ponder, we know that the only reason Sauron's forces knew the ring was in The Shire was because they captured Gollum and tortured him until speaking the two words "Shire" and "Baggins" before Gandalf The Grey got to him. But what if Gandalf had actually managed to find him first? How would the story change if Gollum had met with the Grey Wizard? Would Sméagol never have turned on Frodo? Would he have even joined the Fellowship to begin with?
Even after Moria and Lothlórien I think the events would play out similar.
-Fellowship leaves Lothlórien with gifts (if Gandalf gets one depends) and in the boats. Passing the kings statues and landing onto the shore.
-Resting after Lothlórien and the events of Moria collecting wood.
-Boromir still confronts Frodo
-Uruk hai still attacks
Here's where I think it differs
-Gandalf and Aragon discuss the next course of action.
-When Boromir confronts Frodo plays out the same.
-Merry and Pippin gets attacked by the Uruk hai Boromir uses his horn leading Gandalf, Aragon, Gimli and Legolas assist to save Merry and Pippin which still gets captured.
-Aragon still let's Frodo go.
scenarios:
1). Aragon, Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli manage to get in time to save Boromir.
Merry and Pippin still captured. This time the fellowship will be split into threes. Either Gandalf accompanies Boromir to Gondor and Minus Tirith. Aragon, Legolas and Gimli go after Merry and Pippin which could be different by entering the forest since Gandalf survived and didn't ascend to white Which depending on how powerful Gandalf is as Grey would he be strong enough to rid the king of Rohan from Sarouman cluches. Battle of helms deep could turn out the same or better maybe if Boromir convinced his father to send aid to Rohan and the riders of Rohan assisting.
2). Boromir still gets killed this time leaving Gandalf, Aragon, Legolas and Gimli maybe all four search for Merry and Pippin. Gandalf trusting Frodo and Sam to find a way to Mordor.
3). Boromir doesn't get tempted, Gandalf is alive and the fellowship is intact.
I think Saruaman would have taken Rohan and finished off Gondor before the ring was gone , his special breed or Orcs might not have lost there will like Saurons did when the ring went into the fire, plus he had men under his command. Maybe setting Saruaman up to Control Orthanc , Minas Tirith , and the Golden Hall. Then Gandalf would have to rally with Lorien , Rivendell and the lonely Mountain crew to take back the big 3.
A good video, to be sure, but Gollum would never quit following the Ring. It might well end up similar to the original ending. Gandalf tries to compel Frodo, the company starts arguing the action, Gollum panics, attacks, and so on.
Gandalf did say that Gollum still had a part to play.
That was a great video. In my opinion I don't think that Gollum would give up on getting the one ring. I do believe that when Gandalf tells Frodo do throw the ring in the fire he would say no and claim the ring his, but in that moment Gollum would jump him from behind like he did in the movie and Gandalf would stop everyone from helping Frodo and it would happen just like in the movie Frodo would put the ring on, Gollum bites the finger and falls in the lava with the ring. Then everyone helps Frodo up just like Sam did. Let's not forget that Gandalf believed that Gollum had a role to play in the story and this was his role, Gollum was always meant to die with the ring as I think that it is impossible for a ringbearer to freely destroy the ring, it had to happen the way it did or it wouldn't happen.
Very interesting theory. I personally think it would be a much harder journey for Frodo if Gandalf had been there--because I suspect Sauron would have been aware that a great power (Gandalf) was in Mordor and getting closer to Mount Doom. Two small hobbits, aided by their elven cloaks, crept unnoticed through Sauron's land, but Gandalf would have found it harder. Sauron could well have become aware of Aragorn, too.
In your scenario, the Ents don't play a part, and without them, could Saruman been defeated? He was more powerful than Gandalf until Gandalf was reborn (after his battle with the Balrog) as Gandalf the White. I'm not sure that a Gandalf who was still the Grey would actually have been able to stand up to Saruman, who, after all, was able to imprison him on the very top of Orthanc.
It is also conceivable that without Gandalf leading the defense of Rohan and then of Gondor, Lothlorien might have fallen. Was Galadriel a match for Sauron if she was unaided? Could Rivendell have fallen?
I note that the prophecy was that the Witch-King could not fall to the hand of Man. It needed a woman and a halfling to destroy him. If Merry had not been with the Rohirrim force, half of the Witch-King's foes would be missing. And if Rohan had fallen, there would have been no cavalry from Rohan, so no Eowyn!
Without Aragorn revealing himself to Sauron through the palantir, Sauron would not have had to make a hasty attack on Gondor, so Mordor would not have been so empty of his forces. And it would have been harder for Frodo and company to cross the land to Mount Doom unnoticed.
This post is a bit disjointed, I fear, because I'm thinking as I write. I just want to add that if Gandalf had not fallen in Moria, some of the main themes in LOTR would have been affected--for the worse, I think. For example, one theme is the effect the least important protagonists (hobbits) could have on the world's history. With Gandalf leading the way to Mount Doom, the hobbits' self-reliance and valor would not have been so tested; they would not have grown into full adulthood. Another theme is the importance of mercy and pity--shown by Bilbo and then Frodo in their dealings with Gollum. Without Gollum's "part to play," would Frodo (along with Sam) have earned the saving of Middle-earth? Another theme is the growing of Aragorn into his stature as King of Gondor--without Gandalf always by his side, he has to make decisions that earn him his proper place (and Arwen's hand), from the decision to follow Merry and Pippin to that to take the paths of the Dead. And of course, if Aragorn had gone to Mordor with Frodo (which was not the original plan! --he was heading to Gondor), he wouldn't have been in a position to show the Gondorians that he was the rightful King and be chosen by them.
There are lots of little pointers and foreshadowings in "The Fellowship" and later volumes of all the intricate threads being woven together to produce the outcome of the defeat of Sauron. I suppose JRRT would have had to rework those and could have come up with good substitutes, but I for one would regret the loss of the LOTR as we have it.
Hi, awesome theory. But I would dare to have some minor objections.
Firstly, I believe, that Merry and Pipin would not part from Frodo willingly. In the book they make it very clear, that they go allways with him, and they finally part only because there was no other option. Gandalf could maybe comand them, but I doubt he would. It was after all him who supported them as members of the fellowship and saw them as important.
I am also not sure, if Aragon would go with Frodo. He originally planned to go in Minas Thirith where he saw his responsibility. But this one is pretty unclear (it would be great dilema for him though).
Timing of attack on Minas Thirith and Frodos company reaching Orodruina is really dramatic and climactic, but highly improbable. Attack on Gondor came really quick but scaling unknown mountains could take weeks (if even possible). Without any other random event, Gondor would probably fall long before they even enter Mordor.
Mordor would definetly not be empty. The force attacking Gondor was just smaler part of Saurons army. And Mordor would be still full of backup army that originally needed to be lured by Aragon and rest if west armies to clear path for Frodo and Sam.
I don't believe Gollum would give up so close to ring. Expecialy if he somehow thought that ring could be in danger. I think he would follow them desperatelly and even against sence of self-preservation.
If Aragon would acompany Frodo, I am not sure if he would become king (even if Gindor somehow survived). His claim was not strict and instant. He could be simply denied. In the book he gained kingdom more through his deeds and fulfilment of phropecy, than through just law. If he would acompany Frodo, he would remain some unknown foregine hero for most of Gondor. Mabye if Boromir would survive, he would support Aragons claim though.
And finally, i don't think defeating Saruman would be easy or even possible. With destroyed Rohan, almost destroyed Gondor, elves in defencive positions and quickly leaving Middleearth, and dwarves very weakened by fight for Erebor, there would be almost no one to opose him. He would not be even threathened by Sauron (and thousadns of scattered Saurons orcs would seek for shelter and leadership). Actually I thing that this situation would be almost jackpot for him. Yes, ring is destroyed, but Saruman remained with most powerfull and capable realm in Middleearth, and with enemies so weakened, that he has plenty of time to even strenghten his possition and continue with conquering. I think he could be main villan for whole fourth age.
Anyway, this is all just nitpicking, and my personal theories.
Thanks for your video.
That's a pretty epic fire from a computer game, must be a regular used one for travellers!
Thanks guys
Excellent theory
Great video. Maybe the balrog would have attacked lothlorien with the forces from dol guldor? The shire scouring would not have happened?
If the Balrog lived, and Moria was still full of orcs, I think the battle in the North (Dale & Erebor) would have gone differently as well. Amuch reduced Gondor would find itself with few allies, and the Fourth Age would be one of constNt strife with the Easterlings and Haradrim etc.
I don't know, i struggle with the thought that Gandalf would cross the Ash Mountains and take the Ring THAT CLOSE to Barad Dur. Maybe over the Shadow Mts. north of Cirith Ungol? Such a fascinating "what if"
Hey Yoystan could u do a theory what if smeogal survived after accidentally dropping the ring at the crack doom?? Thanks
Very interesting. I don't think both Gandalf and Aragorn would have gone with Sam and Frodo. I suspect Aragorn would have while Gandalf went with the others. I also suspect he would have chosen to go to Rohan first. It's hard to say how everything on the west side of the Anduin would have played out but even if Saruman is defeated, Rohan's forces will likely be smaller and there will be no reinforcements from the south for Minas Tirith; it would have been the Corsairs. You end up with both Gondor and Rohan crippled. It does make sense to me that the White Council would eventually come for Saruman but I also think they would have dealt with Durin's Bane as well.
Here's a question for you? Why did Eru Ilúvatar send back Gandalf as the new and improved Gandalf the White? Was it the fact that in the end he died from the wounds inflicted by the balrog or that he was willing to sacrifice himself against the balrog? If it is the latter then there is the possibility Eru would have done something else to elevate Gandalf to Gandalf the White if Gandalf the Grey did not fall in Moria.
@@Enerdhil Yes, I think Eru restored most or all of Gandalf's original powers because he was willing to sacrifice himself if necessary. If Gandalf had survived the encounter the need to enhance Gandalf's powers still existed and he has still demonstrated his commitment to his mission beyond any reasonable doubt. So, Eru would have figured out another way to do that. My guess is it would have happened in Lothlórien.
Hilarious to me that the LotR themed virtual run was the ad that played before this video 🤣
Could you ever do a timeline if Durins Bane got the ring? Also would this new timeliness change the northern battles that aren't in the Books but in the histories? Who would stop the southerns from keeping their fleet for instance?
What a shame.. I'd much rather loose a finger than have a broken mind. Nice video!
I feel Aragorn would have gone to Mina’s tirith with boromir. It seemed to me that in the book that was where he truly wanted to go but couldn’t because Gandalf was no longer around to lead frodo
I think this is a fair assessment. They'd arrive at the same end, with a similarly high price, though the journeys there would be different and the shape of the world would also be different, with a much weaker Rohan in this timeline, but the end result would still be the same - the Ring destroyed in Mt Doom.
You don’t address the punishment that would await Olorin. Ilúvatar himself would have to pass judgment for Olorin did the one thing which Ilúvatar deemed evil: using your powers as an Ainu to force the children of Ilúvatar to submit.
I think that ultimately Olorin would be forgiven by Ilúvatar for he would see that it hurt Olorin far more then anything else.
Why didn't someone just kick Frodo in the nuts and have gandalf break the rocks that had the ring on it to make it fall?
I was half expecting Gandalf to toss the little shit into the volcano himself.
Greeting. Can you please do a "what if" video on the topic. What if Sauron had the 3 rings of power Naria, Nenia, Nilia. 🙂
You should do another Theory video on, "What if Turin saved Finduilas instead of going after his sister."
Excellent theory, but I think Gollum would continue to pursue his precious no matter what, which would cause unknown additional complications.
I very much enjoy these hypothesized alternative stories in the cannon for LOTR. I do, however, take umbrage with the idea that the way the story did happen was necessarily the best way. With an infinite number of possibilities, some would necessarily be as good, and others yet still could be better. That said, this story alternative at least showed an alternative where the ring was destroyed.
I feel like there are a holes in this theory. The biggest one is the palantír. Denethor would have inadvertently transferred the knowledge of the ring and the quest to Sauron if Boromir would have returned and told him of it, and the quest would have been doomed.
Another big problem is the entire reason Mordor was emptied so that Frodo could get to Mount Doom is because Sauron became convinced that Aragorn had the ring, and Aragorn marched on the Black Gate. This never happens in your scenario. Mordor would have been filled with an army the fellowship could not have fought through.
I do not feel Gandalf would have wanted to split the fellowship. It was very clear that the fellowship was meant to journey to Mount Doom with Frodo together. Gandalf had no additional information to work off of that would have made him question the decision. I don't think even Boromir would have wanted to leave the ring while it was being marched into Mount Doom. However, Gandalf didn't know that the ring wraiths were going to be passing over the marshes while they would be there. I think if Gandalf used his powers to suppress the ring wraiths, Sauron would almost certainly have learned of it. And if Gandalf knew that Aragorn would serve better as a distraction in the west, that'd have been decided at the council, but it wasn't.
Lastly, the Uruk-Hai were excellent trackers and they could travel much faster than the fellowship, and they would have caught up with the fellowship eventually once they left the river. I do not think it would have been possible to evade them. They would have needed to be dealt with, preferably before they left the river, because a large battle at the foot of the ash mountains would have certainly attracted attention.
The plan may have been to split at the anduin, gandalf staying with the halfings and the others going to gondor getting aaragon to Gondor would may have persuaded Sauron to attack prematurely thus opening a chance for frodo to fly in on the eagles and destroy the ring
I'm reminded of what happened at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields: Gandalf stood down the Witch King at the shattered gates of Minas Tirith, just as King Theoden launched his charge. Yet Gandalf was not in the battle, where he knew that many would be hurt or killed, and his ancient sword Glamdring (made in Gondolin) was not used for the war. Instead, Pippin called Gandalf away in desperation to save Faramir. Gandalf was reluctant to be drawn away from the battle, for, he said, "if I do, then others will die, I fear....Evil and sorrow will come of this." Theoden would die, but so would the Ringwraith, and all the army of Minas Morgul, and the Haradrim & Mumakil: for Aragorn's Grey Company had succeeded in leading the Dead Men of Dunharrow to Erech, invoking their broken oath, defeating the Corsairs at Pelargir, and brought an army out of Gondor's coastlands up the River Anduin. Gandalf's plans were vague and did not see exactly what Merry & Pippin would achieve with Treebeard, nor what Gollum would do either.
Interesting post. I note that at the Council of Elrond, Elrond wanted to send Merry and Pippin back to the Shire to lead its defense when threatened by Saruman or Sauron's forces, but Gandalf had a feeling (hunch) that they should be part of the Fellowship--that they had some part to play. Gandalf had instincts that guided him even when he couldn't see a definite course of action. In other words, he didn't have exact precognition, but he had a pretty good sense of what might be possible.
You made my video!!! Thank you!!!!
Thanks for the reminders to make it buddy! Really appreciate the continued support, it was the least I could do!
@@MenoftheWest Was a great theory! Always fun to think about these things and I appreciate that you were willing to do so!!!