The best teachers are ready to change their view. Best teachers are also beginners in their mind. We have to recognize that our brain, our times, our views and opinions are always changing and we should embrace the idea of constant change. Nothing is written in stone, nothing is complete and perfect, and every lesson we give is dependent on the student, too. Keep on grinding, Josh!
hah! That's right brother. Dorky as it is, I always think of Suzuki's words when I'm trynig to learn something: "If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything; it is open to everything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few. If you discriminate too much, you limit yourself. In the beginner's mind there is no thought, "I have attained something." All self-centered thoughts limit our vast mind. When we have no thought of achievement, no thought of self, we are true beginners. Then we can really learn something.
Neuroplasticity, our brains are plastic and not stone. Theyre changing all the time, literally physically changing within your skull. I learned about this in outpatient treatment, but it applies to almost eveything
I started disc golfing maybe 2 months ago as a brand new beginner. I learned my walkup from a video (I think yours 😂) that told me to stagger my first step offset. Ive been rounding, throwing my elbow out, having knee pain, and not getting the disc very far despite tremendous effort. Im excited to start rebuilding my walkup using this video. Thank you for the update!
Yes!! I definitely struggle most with the brace and getting my heel down. I start to feel it in my knee after a while, so looking forward to more in depth teaching on that!
I love the idea of swooping the momentum tight into the body with your left arm rather than torquing it into the disc and over rotating the upper body, creating that pocket is one of the hardest things to get yourself used to. You're a great teacher!
I just want to thank the man/men/women who said "This is how you use your back leg....spin....pull through....etc. By figuring out why the past descriptions of what this feeling of actually driving a disc vs. throwing it with the arm or combination of arm and invented the mechanism of energy transfer, I think we are very close as evidenced by this video, and DG Spin Doctor"s response and content put out, to actually describing the core elements and mechanics of the DG backhand. This is no small feat. It is a complex move compounded by the mind's belief that 175 grams of plastic can simply be flung with the muscles of the arm and upper body. It would be easier to learn to "drive"a disc if we had no arm muscles. To all the teachers willing to state their working hypothesis on proper disc mechanics, thank you. Even if wrong, we wouldn't be here without your voice. RIP "The pull through"
The interesting thing about the "pull through" is how pervasive it is. The throw is often called a "pull" in ultimate. And the use of it and others like "reach back" in lieu of the backswing, and has confused some, while others have not been tripped by it. We've had "reach out" and "extension" as alternatives to "backswing" as cues to help correct this. Anyhow, it's been fun learning about this over time.
I'm excited for the new content. It would help me to see a slow motion of an actual drive along side your field explanation. Sometimes the field explains are hard for me to understand because I can't see how the mechanics of it work under the pressure of a throw.
I love that you show drills and break down the movements and parts of the whole process AND show what it actually looks in real time and practically. I rarely see that done. It is often either just drills (with no practical application to the drive ever shown) or just speeding through showing the drive with no breakdown of mechanics. Thank you, good sir.
It's really interesting to see the evolution of your coaching to be closer to how i used to coach ultimate throwers (eg deep pocket) with the arm, but further away from ultimate with the leg and body work. I've only been serious about disc golf for a couple of years and I'm finding it really educational to see how former ultimate players play. When you can't run up, and often need to step out sideways rather than forwards, as in ultimate, it's much more rotational, and people can throw golf discs in that style pretty well up until 300-350 feet or so. But they have way too much hip turn, and it takes too long to rotate them back around, so they can't take advantage of the momentum of their run up. Instead of bracing and transferring the momentum smoothly into the arm, they brace, then rotate for a bit, and by the time they actually throw the momentum is wasted. I've always loved the physics and biomechanics, so disc golf is a while new world of fun. Love your content.
The younger Ultimate players who have transitioned to Disc Golf (and have played Disc Golf already), players like Ella Hansen and Robert Burridge, may do better. Brodie Smith is an interesting case. One of the great throwers in Ultimate, while showing many signs of elite level play, he has yet to find consistency.
@@joeblow2426 Oh yeah, the pros can throw. I was meaning the average weekend players who've transitioned from ultimate (or still play both). Clearly Ella is using the brace pretty well! I now understand what people mean though when they say something like 'he's really pretty good even though his form is still ultimate-y'. The basic idea of where power comes from is so different to how (most) ultimate throwers generate power. The biggest throwers in ultimate do use the weight shift well, like the golfers, but they need to be able to throw in other ways too since there's often someone in the way preventing 'correct' form. And the majority of people (including me for a very long time) never really understand the mechanics of transferring linear momentum into a throw.
new OT coaching videos always go right to the top of my playlist, you guys do it right. i'm trying to figure out which of the steps in the process need to be intentional and which need to be handled by the subconsciousness as a result of hours of drills and practice. i have found recently that i need to force myself to coil fully and brace firmly; my walk towards the target and pre-determined release point should handle the rest of the business. anyway, I love your stuff, and I'm excited to see where you go next!
I now know exactly where you stand and it is so refreshing to see your own evolution and willingness to admit where before you may have been wrong. It’s a constant journey, keep that open mind :)
Very exciting!! I have been learning A LOT from you guys, but I have recently been thinking about some of the stuff from old videos, and if I should or should not contact you with the specifics of what beginners that I teach really react well to. But then this vid came along. Excited to see you grow, your dedication is admirable and thanks for all the good content z3
Hmm I think this was a really good explanation and demonstration because I practiced last week and felt like there were maybe some elements I wasn't fully understanding... But this video connected a few more of those ideas to where I can practice again. I can think about the coil differently, the pocket, and simplify the brace and see what happens.
I have been using the idea of “sliding” into the power pocket since you mentioned it in your last coaching video. I feel like I’ve added like 50 feet to some of my throws, and I can rip my minds flat and far. Not sure what it was but I definitely had some unnecessary rotation that needed to be forced. But if I focus on sliding into the plant with my weight balanced, the disc comes out a lot more effortlessly.
Great video. I had these thoughts exactly about the weight shift a week ago and as always, there’s a video coming soon after confirming my suspicions. That helps a lot since I’m never 100 percent sure whether I get it right. So thank you for that. I’d like to get into teaching discgolf and you guys are just the prime example of how it’s done. One thing I found very useful is to view the xstep also as a weigh shift, letting the back leg slide behind the front leg. If somebody struggles with a big xstep I found teaching it like that super useful.
I like this a lot. I think you have the best drills among the online coaches, so looking forward to your new content. What you are saying in this video is very much in line with dgspindoctor's advise, and makes so much sense, to me at least.
I am so glad OT made this video, because like Josh says, I too get a lot of questions on what I think about him and why are we contradicting so much. We are not contradicting, not anymore.
Thanks for this lesson! The timing of the front foot rotation as you throw would be helpful. When I played before, I didn't know to rotate the front foot, and I got some serious knee pain from twisting on the front leg without rotating my foot. Thanks again!
I'd make a smart comment with words and stuff, But SpinDoctor nailed what needs to be said already. It's hard to change your view points, but I'm glad to see ya'll did and are progressing on your journey learning form. Watching this, I cannot say I really disagree with much of anything at all. Maybe some of your off side terminology or mechanics, but that's nitpicky stuff.
Great video! After the brace, your front foot stayed locked with no rotation on the heel. Please address this in future videos because I’ve learned the hard way through a horrible MCL tear on my front knee how vital it is to rotate the foot on the follow through to avoid injury.
So I like how you explain it what helped me learn what you are talking about is realizing your walk up looks like the old exercise we did in gym class called karaoke walks helped me learn the twist and to Stat under myself with weight shift now to get Mt reachback to not be rounding still working on that
Finally..someone says it so clearly: "Weight shift causing rotation" and I also think tiny amount of shoulder rotation causes hips to follow in that rotation, none of this "spin on your back leg, and kill your knees Mumbo Jumbo.
Great video. We need like a pdga approved form guide. They do this in ball golf, there is a PGA manual on swing techniques. I feel like overthrow and all the other guys are figuring it out as they go, which is cool -let's get the best of them together and partner with PDGA and generate a manual. A couple critiques. The stagger is also created by most of the pros by moving across the teepad at an angle that is offset from the throw. Most rhbh players move from back right corner of t-pad to front left. Also, the weight transfer to the front leg comes late in the throw. I think it's important to point out timing when discussing weight transfer from back leg to front leg, and like you say the weight stays behind the front leg so that it can brace and the momentum goes into the disc as opposed to carrying you over the front leg.
I suppose I'm stating the obvious, but this involves a habit of me intentionally staggering my front foot about heel to toe with back. My knees do ache at times. You are recommending a natural stagger of the feet brought on by the rotation as opposed to an intentional step-out of any type ? The feet fall how they fall by rotation ? Appreciate the content, always done thoughtfully.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf - Thanks. Tried the form to the best of my ability on 36 holes today, my accuracy was quite good, distance about the same. No knee pain, very nice.
Pivoting on the heel is harder for me than it seems to be for everyone else. You're leaning forward on your brace but your foot needs to be back on the heel. My natural tendency is to pivot on my toes and I've really wrenched my ankle and knee that way. Now I need to pivot on my heel or my leg is toast.
That's quite different! I'll be interested in seeing some of the new videos. While the concept makes sense, in practice (actually throwing), it is not intuitive in a throwing motion. Looking forward to the new content :)
Josh I personally think slingshot has a semantics error or misconception because I don't think there is such thing as a front foot or back foot disc golfer, if ur weights to far a head of u the body, the body naturally wants to go into extension, if that happens early in the throw u typically lose a ton of power and often accuracy, in ball golf they will sometimes refer to it as a reverse pivot, so it hard to think of that as a methodology for a throw it doesn't make bio mechanical sense It is interesting to hear your take on the last step of the run and whether you should stagger or not, the slow motion video you did of Simon really gives the illusion of it or maybe that's one of his quirks Anyways great video
I have to say I can't wait till this gets me able to properly throw a 13 speed. I mean realistically it's likely not just this video, but I'm throwing 11 speed quite acceptably, but got a new 13 that should be basically a faster version of my 11, and boy it flies almost nothing like the 11 right now 13 is super beef cake, about 280 ft on a good throw, but 11 speed is about 360-380ft on a similarly good throw.
I feel like it's always important to have one or two discs in your bag that are too fast for you, either for like utility discs or wind. But personally for me it's motivation to actually go do the field work that will make me better. It's a reminder of the process, that I haven't always been able to throw 350 ft, once upon a time 150 was hard, but that soon became 200, 250, and it eventually became 300, then I had my first off season and I've come back from that having done nothing for disc golf and I went from about 315 at the end of last year to 350 this year. I think sometimes your body just needs time to smooth out the timing of your form. But yeah I need to be Paul/Simon and you know throw a mid for 400 ft casually, otherwise I'm just not even human ;).
Hoping for an interview vid with Caroline Henderson sometime in the not too distant future! I'm sure by now you have seen her fantastic forehand video. Would love to see an interview, similar to what you have done with other pros, where you break down some form stuff because she seems to really understand the mechanics and how to explain them well (at least for forehand,) as do you!
I know you said you're rethinking some ways of teaching. One of the videos that helped me click was your lag and snap drill. I think it was the Slappy Bird? Is that still around and still a relevant drill with this new line of mechanics? Signing up for the Patreon this week to check my form anyway! Whenever I throw a good drive now I mentally make the "pyew" sound you do in other videos so thanks for that as well lol.
It's interesting too because I watch baseball sometimes and if you look at players like Shohei you see that same effortless power via shifting pressure and creating that same lag and acceleration.
Ordering my jacket this afternoon! Need to look at the discs as well to add to my order first. Haha. So my form is complete trash and I know it’s because I am trying to rush though it and muscle it. I have thought about going to a complete standstill(no one step). I know there will not be as much momentum but how do you transfer pressure from the back to the front? Do you push off the back foot? Thanks!!
I think I disagree about the left arm. IMO it's helping to add more power to the rotation. It looks to me that almost everybody is pushing the left arm to their body to cause more power to the rotation. Also there is the term "double move" where the left arm starts coming forward when the right arm (holding the disc) is straightening (or in a sense going backwards).In Paige Pierce's throws this is quite easy to see.
Hey Josh and Mikey, can you add camera angle from underneath the throwing arm in some videos to demonstrate wrist and finger movement? GoPro on the ground or something :)
4:38 - I see now why that’s a better explanation, you do use the strength of your back leg to push off, but you don’t try to stay with your weight on your back leg - the problem psychologically remains, that people want to open up too early and shift their weight forward too early and pulling the disc (that’s the reason the backleg theory was the first technique that helped me get over 300ft consistently, but I understand now, that it’s not the pinnacle of form theory)
The difference between front leg and back leg dg is that FL is easier because you’re bypassing the strength and flexibility BL is hard because it takes time to build the strength and skill up. If you aren’t throwing at least 400 feet with zero effort after the coil you never did BL.
Just bought a rain jacket, When the back foot slides forward at the end of the throw, does it come forward in front of or behind the front foot? Does the back foot come forward like in bowling (behind)?
So one of the things that coach Steve talks about when talking about the double move versus the power pocket is some of the lag between the left hand, moving in with the rotation of the hips and the right hand moving out at that time rather than into the power pocket in order to create more coil, removing the obvious notion that flexibility and core capability are going to be different for everyone across the board. It sounds like that would make more sense than simply proclaiming that keeping it in the power pocket longer is going to provide that. I will share this video to you, although I'm sure you've already seen it. Josh, I'm just curious what your thoughts are in terms of that idea. I know that you didn't quite get into that in this and there may be a lot more to reveal as time moves on. I'm just curious because I'm a curious guy lol czcams.com/video/fwWp_9EaXc4/video.html&feature=share7
Josh, could you please make a video on reducing wobble? I have high amounts of wobble for both backhand and forehand. I think "swing theory" that's out there doesn't quite touch this issue, and for people like myself, I feel like I've tried everything, but something about how we hold the disc and position our arm throughout the swing causes a lot of off-axis torque. If you start out throwing one way, and it's incorrect, it can become nearly impossible to change, unless the correct swing is reproduced, and then repeated. I can't even get to the first step, to build good form through repetition. It's more than just cocking the wrist back. It's the position of the wrist, elbow, and shoulder in the swing. Does the disc remain in roughly the same plane throughout the swing? Can the second arc of the swing in particular (the in-out just prior to release) remain level the entire way? I just can't do it. Maybe you can help me and others by addressing this in the future. Thank you.
Currently, for a straight shot, I move from back right to front left corner of the t box. Is that an indication of over rotation? You mentioned that the walk up is in the direction of the target, so I should be walking up down the middle of the t pad?
I’m a bit confused on one part of this video: the “throw out” part of it. Am I supposed to keep my arm in the power pocket and extend my forearm outwards away from my body, keeping the bicep at 90 degrees with the shoulder? Then open the shoulder in the follow through? Or should the bicep and arm extend out together during the throw? I’ve been doing the latter since I started but have been trying to do the former after watching videos on the power pocket.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Thanks for you response and all your content! That makes sense. I got caught up in the 90° bend concept. I also just checked your overhead video of Simon’s slow motion shots and it’s back to being clear. Your videos have really helped me change my form and stop pulling through with the shoulder and tearing the joint to pieces lol.
I feel that I can’t get my upper body to get loose enough to get that whip when I follow through on my drive. Any suggestions on how to train my body to stay loose? Thanks.
I've got a couple of suggestions that might help a little. 1) throw into a net. It's possible that your conscious mind is so keen not to throw something embarrassingly bad that you can't just let it all be loose. Stand 2m from a net and you don't have to give a crap about results until you're able to feel looser. 2) Often, people who have issues with being unable to stay loose are compensating for errant positioning elsewhere in the throw. Eg if you're over-rotating and throwing chest-on to the target, then keeping the arm loose will collapse the pocket, and so you'll tend to use the muscles in the arm and shoulder to get into a reasonable position and you won't be able to be loose.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf really? I've thought I've had this one for awhile 🤨 one day when the bills end, I'd like you to have a consultation with my 10 year old (I'm a lost cause haha.) He is an absolute freak and mims the pros to a T. Every tournament I put him in, he wins. I wouldn't hesitate to put him up against teenagers. I'm going to get this kid sponsored one day soon as I can figure out how to go about it haha.
It would be really helpful to actually see the maneuver in real time. At one point in the video you say "here it is in real time" then you proceed to pause halfway through again.
I get this form break down completely…… but only for a certain shot. Not every shot is creating that power pocket form you’re showing. I honestly wish someone would talk about how training your throwing arm to be more limp. Being able to control your throwing arm as a noodle arm, to throw the disc. Making your arm work as if you are whipping a towel. This is why when you watch different videos of pros playing random holes, their form will change for that specific shot shape. But what stays similar is the whip like effect from their arm.
not a good look for you. (shave (or wash) your neck) not trying to be mean. just saying, because you're the face of these very public vids, and you want to sport the look that works best for you.
Could you please, finally, take yourself at your own word as a teacher and coach, and knock it off with the background music during the actual teaching / coaching parts of your videos? It is distracting enough to make your content unwatchable for me. I would even be willing to pay for "clean" noise-free versions by subscription on Patreon or wherever. #accessibility #universaldesign
We’ve had music in every video on our channel since starting. That’s a big ask. Question. Does music in other learning type videos bother you as well? From what I’ve experienced on CZcams there is music in most well known CZcamsrs videos so I’m curious if it bothers you elsewhere or just with ours? Genuinely curious.
The best teachers are ready to change their view. Best teachers are also beginners in their mind. We have to recognize that our brain, our times, our views and opinions are always changing and we should embrace the idea of constant change. Nothing is written in stone, nothing is complete and perfect, and every lesson we give is dependent on the student, too. Keep on grinding, Josh!
hah! That's right brother. Dorky as it is, I always think of Suzuki's words when I'm trynig to learn something:
"If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything; it is open to everything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few.
If you discriminate too much, you limit yourself.
In the beginner's mind there is no thought, "I have attained something."
All self-centered thoughts limit our vast mind. When we have no thought of achievement, no thought of self, we are true beginners. Then we can really learn something.
What’s next full reachbacks and pull throughs. This is a flapping demonstration and you know it
PHD student here….couldn’t agree more
Stay green and growing my friends
Neuroplasticity, our brains are plastic and not stone. Theyre changing all the time, literally physically changing within your skull. I learned about this in outpatient treatment, but it applies to almost eveything
40k!!! Let’s freakin go!! Stoked for yall, and always impressed with the humility required to go back and say how your coaching has evolved. ❤❤❤
I think the best saying to describe walk up speed is "As fast as you can, but as slow as you need". Great video as always!
Also, look at pro's like Paul Oman and Tristan Tanner, they have a super slow walk up and can crush
I started disc golfing maybe 2 months ago as a brand new beginner. I learned my walkup from a video (I think yours 😂) that told me to stagger my first step offset.
Ive been rounding, throwing my elbow out, having knee pain, and not getting the disc very far despite tremendous effort.
Im excited to start rebuilding my walkup using this video. Thank you for the update!
Yes!! I definitely struggle most with the brace and getting my heel down. I start to feel it in my knee after a while, so looking forward to more in depth teaching on that!
I love the idea of swooping the momentum tight into the body with your left arm rather than torquing it into the disc and over rotating the upper body, creating that pocket is one of the hardest things to get yourself used to. You're a great teacher!
Very good Josh. The most coherent explanation of the backhand throw I’ve ever heard (and seen)!
Stoked for a new Playlist, I've watched the old videos so many times I feel like I could recite them!
I just want to thank the man/men/women who said "This is how you use your back leg....spin....pull through....etc. By figuring out why the past descriptions of what this feeling of actually driving a disc vs. throwing it with the arm or combination of arm and invented the mechanism of energy transfer, I think we are very close as evidenced by this video, and DG Spin Doctor"s response and content put out, to actually describing the core elements and mechanics of the DG backhand. This is no small feat. It is a complex move compounded by the mind's belief that 175 grams of plastic can simply be flung with the muscles of the arm and upper body. It would be easier to learn to "drive"a disc if we had no arm muscles. To all the teachers willing to state their working hypothesis on proper disc mechanics, thank you. Even if wrong, we wouldn't be here without your voice. RIP "The pull through"
The interesting thing about the "pull through" is how pervasive it is. The throw is often called a "pull" in ultimate. And the use of it and others like "reach back" in lieu of the backswing, and has confused some, while others have not been tripped by it. We've had "reach out" and "extension" as alternatives to "backswing" as cues to help correct this. Anyhow, it's been fun learning about this over time.
I'm excited for the new content. It would help me to see a slow motion of an actual drive along side your field explanation. Sometimes the field explains are hard for me to understand because I can't see how the mechanics of it work under the pressure of a throw.
Very refreshing to see a coach willing to change their philosophy as they evolve. This only translates to better results for your students.
Omg the very first tip...on staggering...ty so much. I've been working on this very thing.
I love that you show drills and break down the movements and parts of the whole process AND show what it actually looks in real time and practically.
I rarely see that done. It is often either just drills (with no practical application to the drive ever shown) or just speeding through showing the drive with no breakdown of mechanics.
Thank you, good sir.
It's really interesting to see the evolution of your coaching to be closer to how i used to coach ultimate throwers (eg deep pocket) with the arm, but further away from ultimate with the leg and body work. I've only been serious about disc golf for a couple of years and I'm finding it really educational to see how former ultimate players play.
When you can't run up, and often need to step out sideways rather than forwards, as in ultimate, it's much more rotational, and people can throw golf discs in that style pretty well up until 300-350 feet or so. But they have way too much hip turn, and it takes too long to rotate them back around, so they can't take advantage of the momentum of their run up. Instead of bracing and transferring the momentum smoothly into the arm, they brace, then rotate for a bit, and by the time they actually throw the momentum is wasted.
I've always loved the physics and biomechanics, so disc golf is a while new world of fun. Love your content.
The younger Ultimate players who have transitioned to Disc Golf (and have played Disc Golf already), players like Ella Hansen and Robert Burridge, may do better. Brodie Smith is an interesting case. One of the great throwers in Ultimate, while showing many signs of elite level play, he has yet to find consistency.
@@joeblow2426 Oh yeah, the pros can throw. I was meaning the average weekend players who've transitioned from ultimate (or still play both). Clearly Ella is using the brace pretty well!
I now understand what people mean though when they say something like 'he's really pretty good even though his form is still ultimate-y'. The basic idea of where power comes from is so different to how (most) ultimate throwers generate power.
The biggest throwers in ultimate do use the weight shift well, like the golfers, but they need to be able to throw in other ways too since there's often someone in the way preventing 'correct' form. And the majority of people (including me for a very long time) never really understand the mechanics of transferring linear momentum into a throw.
new OT coaching videos always go right to the top of my playlist, you guys do it right.
i'm trying to figure out which of the steps in the process need to be intentional and which need to be handled by the subconsciousness as a result of hours of drills and practice. i have found recently that i need to force myself to coil fully and brace firmly; my walk towards the target and pre-determined release point should handle the rest of the business.
anyway, I love your stuff, and I'm excited to see where you go next!
Intentional brace and intentional right arm
I now know exactly where you stand and it is so refreshing to see your own evolution and willingness to admit where before you may have been wrong. It’s a constant journey, keep that open mind :)
This is awesome. Josh out here leaned out leveling up 🤙🏾
Oh! It was a pre-order! That explains why i couldn't find them😅
Very exciting!! I have been learning A LOT from you guys, but I have recently been thinking about some of the stuff from old videos, and if I should or should not contact you with the specifics of what beginners that I teach really react well to.
But then this vid came along. Excited to see you grow, your dedication is admirable and thanks for all the good content z3
Lookin leaner Josh! Let’s go buddy!! Killin it with the overview as well. Thanks, my backhand is greatly improving
Hmm I think this was a really good explanation and demonstration because I practiced last week and felt like there were maybe some elements I wasn't fully understanding... But this video connected a few more of those ideas to where I can practice again. I can think about the coil differently, the pocket, and simplify the brace and see what happens.
Great analogy with sliding on floor keeping your weight centered. Similar to stopping in hockey also
Hockey is such a good crossover sport
I have been using the idea of “sliding” into the power pocket since you mentioned it in your last coaching video. I feel like I’ve added like 50 feet to some of my throws, and I can rip my minds flat and far. Not sure what it was but I definitely had some unnecessary rotation that needed to be forced. But if I focus on sliding into the plant with my weight balanced, the disc comes out a lot more effortlessly.
Great synopsis! Look forward to the videos to come.
Great video. I had these thoughts exactly about the weight shift a week ago and as always, there’s a video coming soon after confirming my suspicions. That helps a lot since I’m never 100 percent sure whether I get it right. So thank you for that. I’d like to get into teaching discgolf and you guys are just the prime example of how it’s done.
One thing I found very useful is to view the xstep also as a weigh shift, letting the back leg slide behind the front leg. If somebody struggles with a big xstep I found teaching it like that super useful.
I like this a lot. I think you have the best drills among the online coaches, so looking forward to your new content. What you are saying in this video is very much in line with dgspindoctor's advise, and makes so much sense, to me at least.
I am so glad OT made this video, because like Josh says, I too get a lot of questions on what I think about him and why are we contradicting so much. We are not contradicting, not anymore.
@@ryosapien27 Thanks!
I love the sturdy description of the rain jacket.
Probably one of the better videos and seeing it referenced quite a bit.
Thanks for this lesson! The timing of the front foot rotation as you throw would be helpful. When I played before, I didn't know to rotate the front foot, and I got some serious knee pain from twisting on the front leg without rotating my foot. Thanks again!
I'd make a smart comment with words and stuff, But SpinDoctor nailed what needs to be said already. It's hard to change your view points, but I'm glad to see ya'll did and are progressing on your journey learning form.
Watching this, I cannot say I really disagree with much of anything at all. Maybe some of your off side terminology or mechanics, but that's nitpicky stuff.
Great video! After the brace, your front foot stayed locked with no rotation on the heel. Please address this in future videos because I’ve learned the hard way through a horrible MCL tear on my front knee how vital it is to rotate the foot on the follow through to avoid injury.
For sure
So I like how you explain it what helped me learn what you are talking about is realizing your walk up looks like the old exercise we did in gym class called karaoke walks helped me learn the twist and to Stat under myself with weight shift now to get Mt reachback to not be rounding still working on that
Finally..someone says it so clearly: "Weight shift causing rotation" and I also think tiny amount of shoulder rotation causes hips to follow in that rotation, none of this "spin on your back leg, and kill your knees Mumbo Jumbo.
Exactly. Brace + Arm = rotation.
I pre ordered that rain jacket like a boss. My daughter loves the thorn test picture. "DROP!"
Thanks coach. & Mikey. 🙏
Great video. We need like a pdga approved form guide. They do this in ball golf, there is a PGA manual on swing techniques. I feel like overthrow and all the other guys are figuring it out as they go, which is cool -let's get the best of them together and partner with PDGA and generate a manual.
A couple critiques. The stagger is also created by most of the pros by moving across the teepad at an angle that is offset from the throw. Most rhbh players move from back right corner of t-pad to front left.
Also, the weight transfer to the front leg comes late in the throw. I think it's important to point out timing when discussing weight transfer from back leg to front leg, and like you say the weight stays behind the front leg so that it can brace and the momentum goes into the disc as opposed to carrying you over the front leg.
This makes me happy, you are teaching the same thing as DG Spin Doctor.
I've been currently going through a form change and I had it about figured out but your explanation filled in the gaps I think I was missing
My wife and I were up doing shadow form in the living room in our socks and I noticed the sliding thing.
Love it. Can’t wait to see it all.
I suppose I'm stating the obvious, but this involves a habit of me intentionally staggering my front foot about heel to toe with back. My knees do ache at times. You are recommending a natural stagger of the feet brought on by the rotation as opposed to an intentional step-out of any type ? The feet fall how they fall by rotation ? Appreciate the content, always done thoughtfully.
This is what I’m advocating for most people
@@OverthrowDiscGolf - Thanks. Tried the form to the best of my ability on 36 holes today, my accuracy was quite good, distance about the same. No knee pain, very nice.
Thank you very much, always helpful tips :D
Awesome job and thank you for the great knowledge
That would explain why my back hurts all the time. Thank you Josh
Pivoting on the heel is harder for me than it seems to be for everyone else. You're leaning forward on your brace but your foot needs to be back on the heel. My natural tendency is to pivot on my toes and I've really wrenched my ankle and knee that way. Now I need to pivot on my heel or my leg is toast.
Man I've been trying to figure out how to keep my knee safe too. Can't play more than 2-3 times a week currently
@@radagascar1 dang stay healthy man. Me too. I had surgery on this knee from skating already and I gotta find the safest way to use it when I throw.
Great work on the weight loss bro!
That's quite different! I'll be interested in seeing some of the new videos. While the concept makes sense, in practice (actually throwing), it is not intuitive in a throwing motion. Looking forward to the new content :)
Josh I personally think slingshot has a semantics error or misconception because I don't think there is such thing as a front foot or back foot disc golfer, if ur weights to far a head of u the body, the body naturally wants to go into extension, if that happens early in the throw u typically lose a ton of power and often accuracy, in ball golf they will sometimes refer to it as a reverse pivot, so it hard to think of that as a methodology for a throw it doesn't make bio mechanical sense
It is interesting to hear your take on the last step of the run and whether you should stagger or not, the slow motion video you did of Simon really gives the illusion of it or maybe that's one of his quirks
Anyways great video
Agreed on all counts
Love the video! Tripod link is the same as the Mic :)
I have to say I can't wait till this gets me able to properly throw a 13 speed. I mean realistically it's likely not just this video, but I'm throwing 11 speed quite acceptably, but got a new 13 that should be basically a faster version of my 11, and boy it flies almost nothing like the 11 right now 13 is super beef cake, about 280 ft on a good throw, but 11 speed is about 360-380ft on a similarly good throw.
I feel like it's always important to have one or two discs in your bag that are too fast for you, either for like utility discs or wind. But personally for me it's motivation to actually go do the field work that will make me better. It's a reminder of the process, that I haven't always been able to throw 350 ft, once upon a time 150 was hard, but that soon became 200, 250, and it eventually became 300, then I had my first off season and I've come back from that having done nothing for disc golf and I went from about 315 at the end of last year to 350 this year. I think sometimes your body just needs time to smooth out the timing of your form. But yeah I need to be Paul/Simon and you know throw a mid for 400 ft casually, otherwise I'm just not even human ;).
You crack me up, always looks like you just rolled out of bed with your bed head and neck fuzz. As always great content
Hoping for an interview vid with Caroline Henderson sometime in the not too distant future! I'm sure by now you have seen her fantastic forehand video. Would love to see an interview, similar to what you have done with other pros, where you break down some form stuff because she seems to really understand the mechanics and how to explain them well (at least for forehand,) as do you!
Hoping for an interview as well
I really found this helpful! Did you intentionally not discuss your philosophy regarding which movement initiates the forward movement of the swing?
Not intentionally. The brace is first. Then the arm.
*Chefs kiss
I know you said you're rethinking some ways of teaching. One of the videos that helped me click was your lag and snap drill. I think it was the Slappy Bird? Is that still around and still a relevant drill with this new line of mechanics? Signing up for the Patreon this week to check my form anyway!
Whenever I throw a good drive now I mentally make the "pyew" sound you do in other videos so thanks for that as well lol.
I took it down. Not that it didn’t help but that I’ll explain getting into the pocket better
It's interesting too because I watch baseball sometimes and if you look at players like Shohei you see that same effortless power via shifting pressure and creating that same lag and acceleration.
How far can Josh throw a driver?
Should you curl with the wrist before the release I'm not getting the snap and still stuck on 250ft drives.
Yep. Maintain slight curl
You're looking trim!
Ordering my jacket this afternoon! Need to look at the discs as well to add to my order first. Haha.
So my form is complete trash and I know it’s because I am trying to rush though it and muscle it. I have thought about going to a complete standstill(no one step). I know there will not be as much momentum but how do you transfer pressure from the back to the front? Do you push off the back foot? Thanks!!
💕 and affection to you sir.
Tough question. Kind of like walking. Is there a push? Kinda? But I’d slide around a bit and see what that feels like
I think I disagree about the left arm. IMO it's helping to add more power to the rotation. It looks to me that almost everybody is pushing the left arm to their body to cause more power to the rotation.
Also there is the term "double move" where the left arm starts coming forward when the right arm (holding the disc) is straightening (or in a sense going backwards).In Paige Pierce's throws this is quite easy to see.
I once thought this opinion to be correct. I no longer see it this way
Hey Josh and Mikey, can you add camera angle from underneath the throwing arm in some videos to demonstrate wrist and finger movement?
GoPro on the ground or something :)
I’d assume he’ll say something like “if you’re thinking about your wrist and fingers, you’re overthinking it” but that’s just me.
@@WillEnj0y not thinking about them but it would give a visual about how the disc gets going when throwing properly
Forehand coming next?? Pls
4:38 - I see now why that’s a better explanation, you do use the strength of your back leg to push off, but you don’t try to stay with your weight on your back leg - the problem psychologically remains, that people want to open up too early and shift their weight forward too early and pulling the disc (that’s the reason the backleg theory was the first technique that helped me get over 300ft consistently, but I understand now, that it’s not the pinnacle of form theory)
The difference between front leg and back leg dg is that FL is easier because you’re bypassing the strength and flexibility BL is hard because it takes time to build the strength and skill up. If you aren’t throwing at least 400 feet with zero effort after the coil you never did BL.
Just bought a rain jacket,
When the back foot slides forward at the end of the throw, does it come forward in front of or behind the front foot? Does the back foot come forward like in bowling (behind)?
Thanks for buying the jacket!
The foot does go behind first and then will swing around during the follow through
Is the idea behind not popping that left knee in to prevent over rotation? Been working on this specific aspect of achieving the ideal “power pocket”.
Correct.
Whoop whoop
So one of the things that coach Steve talks about when talking about the double move versus the power pocket is some of the lag between the left hand, moving in with the rotation of the hips and the right hand moving out at that time rather than into the power pocket in order to create more coil, removing the obvious notion that flexibility and core capability are going to be different for everyone across the board. It sounds like that would make more sense than simply proclaiming that keeping it in the power pocket longer is going to provide that. I will share this video to you, although I'm sure you've already seen it. Josh, I'm just curious what your thoughts are in terms of that idea. I know that you didn't quite get into that in this and there may be a lot more to reveal as time moves on. I'm just curious because I'm a curious guy lol
czcams.com/video/fwWp_9EaXc4/video.html&feature=share7
Im also curious about this.
Josh, could you please make a video on reducing wobble? I have high amounts of wobble for both backhand and forehand. I think "swing theory" that's out there doesn't quite touch this issue, and for people like myself, I feel like I've tried everything, but something about how we hold the disc and position our arm throughout the swing causes a lot of off-axis torque. If you start out throwing one way, and it's incorrect, it can become nearly impossible to change, unless the correct swing is reproduced, and then repeated. I can't even get to the first step, to build good form through repetition. It's more than just cocking the wrist back. It's the position of the wrist, elbow, and shoulder in the swing. Does the disc remain in roughly the same plane throughout the swing? Can the second arc of the swing in particular (the in-out just prior to release) remain level the entire way? I just can't do it. Maybe you can help me and others by addressing this in the future. Thank you.
Less wobble means more spin. There are a couple things that go into that but video inbound
@@OverthrowDiscGolf cool, thank you!
Where do I have to look to get a little help and does it have what you charge readily available?
Patreon. And the link is in the description. I would wait until the start of next month though
@@OverthrowDiscGolf thanks chief your the best
Do you think Slingshot disc golf explains it incorrectly?
Yes
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Good to know, thanks coach!
I like that "start reach back while plant foot weightless". Good cue.
Currently, for a straight shot, I move from back right to front left corner of the t box. Is that an indication of over rotation? You mentioned that the walk up is in the direction of the target, so I should be walking up down the middle of the t pad?
Totally depends on the line you’re taking and where the basket is located.
Should I be doing my best to keep my off arm close to my body during the entire run up?
Not necessarily during the entire walkup but that might not be a bad way to learn
Do you recommend beginners throw standstill or do you think it makes more sense to learn xstep right away?
Standstills are great to start
I’m a bit confused on one part of this video: the “throw out” part of it. Am I supposed to keep my arm in the power pocket and extend my forearm outwards away from my body, keeping the bicep at 90 degrees with the shoulder? Then open the shoulder in the follow through?
Or should the bicep and arm extend out together during the throw? I’ve been doing the latter since I started but have been trying to do the former after watching videos on the power pocket.
The power pocket might start at 90 degrees but then it opens up past that. Probably around 130 degrees for most people.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Thanks for you response and all your content! That makes sense. I got caught up in the 90° bend concept. I also just checked your overhead video of Simon’s slow motion shots and it’s back to being clear. Your videos have really helped me change my form and stop pulling through with the shoulder and tearing the joint to pieces lol.
I feel that I can’t get my upper body to get loose enough to get that whip when I follow through on my drive.
Any suggestions on how to train my body to stay loose? Thanks.
This is the number one thing you have to learn on your own
I've got a couple of suggestions that might help a little.
1) throw into a net. It's possible that your conscious mind is so keen not to throw something embarrassingly bad that you can't just let it all be loose. Stand 2m from a net and you don't have to give a crap about results until you're able to feel looser.
2) Often, people who have issues with being unable to stay loose are compensating for errant positioning elsewhere in the throw. Eg if you're over-rotating and throwing chest-on to the target, then keeping the arm loose will collapse the pocket, and so you'll tend to use the muscles in the arm and shoulder to get into a reasonable position and you won't be able to be loose.
I request you fix my overrotation thank you
You guys coming to Jonesboro again this year?
Not this year. It was fun last year though. Gonna hang back and focus on content
Great teaching, bad socks.
Are pros doing a "weight shift" or a "back leg rotation"? I don't really know what to do.
Weight shift.
Rewatch video
I've missed you Marty. Being forehand dominant, I certainly have a need for improvement for my backhand. As a lefty, it's difficult.
You change your username so much lol
@@OverthrowDiscGolf really? I've thought I've had this one for awhile 🤨 one day when the bills end, I'd like you to have a consultation with my 10 year old (I'm a lost cause haha.) He is an absolute freak and mims the pros to a T. Every tournament I put him in, he wins. I wouldn't hesitate to put him up against teenagers. I'm going to get this kid sponsored one day soon as I can figure out how to go about it haha.
@@OverthrowDiscGolf keep up the amazing content brother. You deserve it and we all appreciate it.
what size is rainjacket?
You get to pick!
@@OverthrowDiscGolf Too bad sold out
Since when is it considered “open minded” to knock things you haven’t tried?
Looks like you've been losing some weight! Looking good!
So he is against backleg throwing and pushing the left arm in on rotation.
Correct
My man Josh is like a standard sized Marty McFly
It would be really helpful to actually see the maneuver in real time. At one point in the video you say "here it is in real time" then you proceed to pause halfway through again.
I get this form break down completely…… but only for a certain shot.
Not every shot is creating that power pocket form you’re showing.
I honestly wish someone would talk about how training your throwing arm to be more limp. Being able to control your throwing arm as a noodle arm, to throw the disc. Making your arm work as if you are whipping a towel. This is why when you watch different videos of pros playing random holes, their form will change for that specific shot shape. But what stays similar is the whip like effect from their arm.
I miss the old music. Great video though, thanks!
Ahhhh the old song
not a good look for you. (shave (or wash) your neck) not trying to be mean. just saying, because you're the face of these very public vids, and you want to sport the look that works best for you.
Thanks for the advice. The look seems to be working alright
Could you please, finally, take yourself at your own word as a teacher and coach, and knock it off with the background music during the actual teaching / coaching parts of your videos? It is distracting enough to make your content unwatchable for me. I would even be willing to pay for "clean" noise-free versions by subscription on Patreon or wherever. #accessibility #universaldesign
We’ve had music in every video on our channel since starting. That’s a big ask. Question. Does music in other learning type videos bother you as well? From what I’ve experienced on CZcams there is music in most well known CZcamsrs videos so I’m curious if it bothers you elsewhere or just with ours? Genuinely curious.
Meh, isn't the best instruction/thought on the backhand. I'd rather learn from several others that aren't still learning like Josh.
Go for it