Oliver and White's Over Under Transmission - What is it?
Vložit
- čas přidán 10. 10. 2020
- I've had some requests to make this video, so here we go. The basics of Oliver's 3 speed , shift on the go, auxiliary transmission. It includes some tips on assessing the condition of a three speed without tools. Definitely not a substitute for a pressure gauge, but can give you an idea of the internal condition if you're looking at buying at tractor.
- Auta a dopravní prostředky
An acquaintance who was the main major equipment build shop for Dowell, a major worldwide oilfield service company, came into our dealership one day and was asking about the over/under shift box we had on our tractors. We gave him a demonstration and he said he wanted 4 of them. Not the tractor, just the over/under transmissions. They were building some pump drive units that they needed the ability to change speeds without having to declutch the engine to shift the gearboxes. Their pumps required about 200 hp minimum and when the pump output needed to be a little less or a little more the over/under provided the operator more control. Dowell sold out to Slumberberger (pronounced Slumberjay) Dowell had cornered the market on Allison/Packard engines after the war. They used them to power their hydraulic fracking pumps in the late 40s and into the late 60s. If you think a Detroit sounds great you should have heard those Allisons under full load. They were enclosed in the truck body that had shutters all around it. If one caught fire the shutters would close, CO2 flooded the compartment and hopefully saved the equipment. When they tested them with a choke in the pressure output line those trucks would vibrate. If one backfired the whole truck would rock sideways when the torque momentarily cut back and then hard the other way when the power came back online.
Cool history! Thanks for sharing!
The good ole over/under, I still can hear the sound of my dad's 1655 diesel when he would go from under all the way to over
I always loved how the Olivers and Whites would freewheel in under. I’d do exactly as you do when going down the road with hay wagons or a gravity wagons: just slow mostly down in over, then go straight to under as I pulled into the barn lot. I’d then throttle down the rest of the way and let the tractor coast down on its own. Not a feature, but if you knew to expect it, it sure felt like one.
This makes me miss our 1850. That was a great tractor!
We used a 1655 to feed cattle between 3 farms, every stop sign we came to we would see how far we could roll coal shifting up just as it ran up wide open. The last corner was a short 1/4 mile & we could leave smoke for almost the whole way until it was time to slow down, until dad caught us. We had a 770 with a heat houser when dad got the 1655 with a cab & heater, really nice for winter in N.W. Iowa. All the Oliver's we had I can't remember a power booster or a hydra-power ever causing problems. The loader tractor would get a clutch every summer but the field tractors would usually run 3 to 4000 hrs. before a clutch.
I worked on a hog farm in the 1980's and we had an Oliver and were told to "Never " shift the over/under/direct drive or it would leak and was hard to fix. I always wondered if that was a bull crap story.I never did shift it out of direct drive. If that tractor was not plugged in it would not start!I think it was a model 1855 or 1955 not sure, all it pulled was a honey wagon. Thanks for the video!
I/we had a white 2-105, the dealer advised us to always start work in under drive, lasted 20 years/6000 hrs no trouble.
Great video! Thanks for explaining and demonstrating how the shifting works.
For my nearly new to me, 2-135, this helps a lot. Thanks!
Thanks for the info, i'll be more well informed next time i go to look at a tractor.
Thanks for the explanation.
You are a wealth of knowledge and I really appreciate it. Thnx for your help.
Thank you!
Hello from Tasmania.thanks for the run down on how the over under drive works. I’m a Massey man it’s like the multi power used in the Ferguson’s but with only hi and low. They take off going downhill in low and hold in high going up hill.keep safe thanks Kerry.
Thanks Chris. You do a good job of explaining things.
Thanks, I appreciate that!
Enjoyed the video bro. Y'all stay safe
I just love cutting hay with my 1650 with the three speed. It’s a fantastic tractor for square baling hay as well. Super handy for thick hay for thin hay.
Good explanation Chris. The over & under was the best. Always wished Oliver would have offered a differential lock back in the day. That was the only thing the 4020 had on us. That and maybe a better hydraulic pump.
Yeah, they dropped the ball with the diff lock.
I remember growing up without those things . All were direct drive , back in the late 60 early 70 . 1600 , 1800 , 1850 , and a ( White/Oliver ) 1955 .
Very good info thanks.
I never knew that about the rolling backwards test. I remember being a young kid going down the road with the 1755 and a loaded hay wagon, and stepping from over to direct. It was a terrible noise and feeing and ever since then iv always gone from direct right to under and let it coast. Iv also never told anyone about that terrible noise that day 😂 great video Chris
Well now we know, and you will be reported to the authorities asap.
Thanks!
I always wanted a car with an over-under in it! LOL! Those things really shifted good! What I always did when starting out on the road with a load, was use the clutch to lessen the hard shift. No one had a better set up than Oliver did.
I've been thinking a 4-53 with an over/under, coupled to to a 4 or 5 speed manual. Speed shifting would be smooth and easy in under drive, and you'd have 2 speeds to drop back climbing hills. Put all that in a 1 ton pickup.
@@ThatOliverGuyChris that sounds interesting, Chris. Funny though they have a transmission in drag racing that is really neat,
Thanks for the explanation Chris. I hope harvest has been going well for you.
Thanks! Harvest has been going good so far. Beautiful weather has kept me busy! I've been falling behind on editing and watching, but it looks like things have been progressing well for you?
We been busy getting equipment ready. We're hoping to start with high moisture corn today, then move into dry corn then beans. It gets kinda frustrating when it feels like everyone else is making so much progress and we don't get the work done in the fields the other guys do. I try to be patient, having dairy cattle just makes everything take longer, which I know you know our situation.
Everyone had a two or three speed.. seems like low always freewheeled..
Thank you for the video Chris!!
Thank you for watching!
Over/under hydraulic shift. Had 1 on my white 2-105. great for haying/plowing. just don't go into under drv while going down hill. the sprag clutch in under drv caused hard shifting.
Good info!
A repair video on the O/U is the one I've been waiting for. I've got one that needs a rebuild and am looking for any tips that can help, as I am planning to do it myself for the first time. Thank you Chris for another good video.
We fixed ours just with the original White workshop manual ,it was pretty easy from memory, but that was over 30 years ago .
Thxz Chris. Eaglegards...
I've had guys tell me that to about International you should never pull the torque back into low when you're wide open on the road that's the hardest thing on them
Thanks...!!!
Thanks for another great video. Some release date info would be interesting. I recently had a discussion with a local farmer about that, he tried to tell me the over/under didn't come out until the 55 series, but the tractor in this video was obviously a 50 series which is when I thought the over/unders first came out. Happy and safe harvest....
The over/under was introduced in late 1967. The new 1950-T was the first model to have it, and the others didn't get theirs until 1968. It was available in the 1650 up through the 2150, with the exception of the 1950 GM. For reasons I don't know, they never offered a factory over/under in the 1950 GM. Part of design criteria for the over/under was that it had to fit in the same space as the hydra-power, so there's no physical reason for it to not go in the 1950 GM.
Thanks for that information Chris. I thought if anyone knew the release date it would be you...
@@ThatOliverGuyChris I literally just asked Mr. Bolte why they didn't put the O/U in the 1950 GM's. He said "the 1950 GM's only had the Hydra Power Drive from the factory because the engine oil cooler used up all of the available space." He then added, "however several have been switched to the O/U post factory, so I don't know if they are missing the oil cooler or what?"
Thanks for this video by the way. I learned from you that I can shift from Over all the way down to Under today. I will keep that in mind for my 2-110.
If anyone would know, it would be Blane. It makes sense too, there's a fuel cooler and hydraulic cooler in front of the radiator. There's not room for much else up there. Physically the 3 speed will fit, I know of few examples, mostly pullers.
@@ThatOliverGuyChris I had to laugh when I was reading this conversation about the 1950 GM and the O/U. I was like “Hey, I just learned about this the day before. I can help convey information for once” lol
Hope Harvest is going good for ya Chris
Got 1968 oliver 1650 with 3spd my grandpa and dad bought new the 3spd started giving trouble right away the dealer put update kit in it 7000 hours still works great
I was cleaning in my basement recently and found a stack of left over seals and parts from updates they did to over unders back then.
Excellent aux trans,,,if all the tractor co,s had that it would been sweet,,,we had a 1555 tricycle,,,,it was a tank could make it have problems even if you tried,,,occasionally a flat tire, and seem like the hydraulics were alittle slow,,,it was our only tractor for several yrs,,,we used the crap out of it,,,for every crop,,bush hogging, plow oh man 3 an it was all it wanted but did the job,,chop silage,disk, plant,everything,,,an boy the girl was heavy,,walkashau 6cyl gas. Ya man it loved it gas
Great tractor!
Freewheeling downhill always a surprise. Massey's freewheeled in multi-power mode
I used the main clutch when I was in sixth. A clutch is easy and "cheap" to replace so I preferred to soften the blow that way
My cousin does that with his manure tank with his White 185. Zero issues with his over/under and still got thousands of hours out of his clutch.
I have a hydra power that does not work right that you could work on. It is on a 1650 diesel and one side does not work. Also must have some issues with the buttons on the hydraulic valve levers that I do not know how to use/not use that makes it try to operate both valves at the same time? The down side it is in Oklahoma.
I like your videos!
She reminds me of the 1800 we had.
I want a 1680 i have one 2 wheel drive run good as hell
I worked for a family farmer when I was young kid growing up and they had a 77 wide front end Diesel and a 77v front-end gas a 1600 V front-end gas 18:55 diesel a Super 88 V front end and I can't remember if it was a 1900 or 1955 with a cab and the big four-wheel drive with a cat and they had to Gleaner combines and my other friends they had some white tractors and to be honest Chris I think Oliver and whites are the best-looking tractors out there I sure do miss it they sold their Farm years ago they were related to Smucker's jelly their name was smoker but they didn't think that would be a good name for the jelly that's why they named it Smuckers they originally come from Ohio and move to Indiana and the road they lived on was smoker Road in Centerville Indiana meek Road crossed it the main road coming in was Centerville Road really good people I started working for them when I was about nine years old My Grandmother Had a 45-acre Farm and they would Farm it and sometimes she would let the Touchlog's Farm it I had a lot of fun on those tractors the one I like the most was the 1855 and I love your 1755 you got an awesome collection man all day yesterday the day before and today you are on my TV I'll take a break from CZcams sometimes but you are very well-educated you have a lot of knowledge and I just hope there's people in your family that can pick up on that it's a Dying Breed hope you have a great one Chris you have a good one buddy😎💚🤙🏽🤙🏽👍🏽👍🏽👊🏼👊🏼
Thank you for the kind words!
@@ThatOliverGuyChris biggest welcome ever my friend you are truly amazing😎👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Great vid thanks! Did Oliver get the over under concept from Cockshutt? I remember hearing about a 580 prototype with a multi speed, shift on the fly transmission. After Oliver took over it was destroyed. Only 1 580 survived, it is not equipped with that trans.
I'm not familiar with that, so I can't say for sure if it had any influence. The hydra power was basically a self contained, pressure lubed, wet clutch version of the power booster drive. When engineering was assigned the task of adding a 3rd speed, they were told it had to fit in the same space as the hydra power. They had engineers that came from MM and Cockshutt working , so the inspiration may have come from there
Hey man can you do videos about the transmissions for the rest of the brands? Your videos are great. Thank you for them
My knowledge of other brands is very limited. I lived a sheltered life. Lol
@@ThatOliverGuyChris lol it would be nice for someone to.l explain stuff like you did on other tractor brands.
Interesting on how those work and they do seem to be a simple setup .. What i wonder about is how far was oliver into a power shift trans or cvt when they were folded into Minnie Mo and white ??? since i have seen only one prototype powershift that minnie had tried
Oliver, and really all 3 companies for that matter, was working on a CVT transmission in the late 60s into the early 70s. It would have set the tractor industry on its ear. It was called the Corporate Tractor since it would be a single tractor line to sell for the 3 brands, or possibly as a single brand with the White name. All of the prototype pictures I have seen had styling similar to a Minneapolis Moline, with Oliver colors. They were designing all new engines to go with the all new transmissions, including the CVT. There was a 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, and even a v8 that would go into trucks. White had built a brand new engine factory in Canton, Ohio to produce these engines, while the rest would be made at existing facilities. The early 70s turned out to be financially tough for White, and the whole corporate tractor program was scrapped. I was told by one of the engineers that only 1 CVT was built, and it was never put in a tractor because it fell off a truck. He also told me they were having trouble refining the CVT, because it could sometimes start moving on its own when it was supposed to be in neutral. He said what they were lacking is what we have today, sensors and computers to make adjustments. They were having trouble because oil viscosity changes with temperature, so the CVT would work differently at different temperatures. White sold the new engine factory to Perkins, and all designs were filed away. It seems crazy to me to be so close to having an all new tractor, but with money being so tight, tooling up to put these tractors into production was more than White could afford. The same engineer told me that before the AGCO acquisition of White tractor they were working on redesigning the over/under to get rid of the sprag clutch and possibly add a 4th speed. They were told it had to fit in the same area as the 3 speed, and that was proving to be a challenge. At a dealer meeting to introduce the 6000 series powershift tractors, AGCO told us they built a 4 speed powershift that White had on the drawing board, and were not satisfied with it. That's when they decided to use the Funk transmission the used in the 6000 series.
Great video Chris. I think I'll stick to my John Deere 8 speed and maybe in the future 15 speed power shifts. It always makes me wonder though what John Deere could've had back in the 60s if they had something like an over/under in front of 8 speed power shift or synchro transmissions to get 24 speeds.
Kenny I spent summers helping my grandfather and uncle farm running a 4010LP and pair of 4020 diesels. I’d estimate I helped rack up at least 3000 hours on them. They were all synchro-range but the 4010 had a third reverse gear that could test your backing skills. A little later a 4630 came along with the 8spd powershift and then a 4440 with quad range. For some reason the one with 3 reverse gears was my favorite... 😂
David Waggoner Yeah the 4010s had a reverse in the third station but it was too fast and too hard on the transmission from what I've been told so they blocked them off on the 4020s. All of the gears for that reverse are still in 4020s but are just blocked out in the shift column which can be cut out to access the extra gear. I'm thinking by the nature of how the gearing was actually set up that there would technically be a reverse in the 6/8 range as well. I would have to look in the service book to find out for sure though.
Yes from what I heard there is a fourth reverse under 8th gear if you grind out the dash below 8th you can access it. I've never done this but I read an article in Green magazine about a guy who knew of someone who did this.
In road gear is it ok to disengage clutch partially when shifting up to over-drive
Yes. My cousin does with his 4300 gallon manure tank. I resealed his 3 speed a few years back, and it was in excellent condition.
Them work pretty much like a TA in the IH.
The exception is, the over under has 3 speeds.
And the over under is FAR FAR FAR more reliable. You can treat each speed as a working gear without worrying about something going wrong.
The torque assist has a bad reputation over unders are reliable.
Morning, I have a 1650 with one 12 volt battery, should a put a 12 volt back in it or should I use 2 6 volts or 2 12 volts in parallel? Thank You! Love your videos!
I personally use a single 12 volt, group 31 battery. Less money and fewer connections to go bad. If you're starting it in cold weather and really need the amps, I would put in two 12s in parallel. And thanks!
If possible, and if you haven't already done so, do you think you could do a video on how to fully shift this power train setup? From 1st under to 6 over I mean.
It's not like a car. You just pick whatever gear range you want and then have your 3 speeds in the gear. You don't go up from 1 to 6. You'll just pick like 5 and take off in under and use your 3 speeds.
Baling hay on the side of a hill, rpms up, shifted from direct to under and the chain coupler let go...it was a bad day.
That would qualify as a bad day.
@@ThatOliverGuyChris it was a lot of work just to start baling again. Fixed the coupler there in the field since it was a rented farm. We did the clutch in my brothers 1550 at a rented farm too. Knew it was getting weak, but thought it could be babied until getting it home. Talked about hauling it and decided to attempt it there under a tree. Not a terrible deal.
With hydrashift going down hill, in low and coasting faster, use brake to slow down to normal before shifting to direct then this 2 speed transmission will last & last.. my family had an early 1800 from about 1962 til after year 2000..
So I caught this video in my feed and I was wondering how they compare to a White American 80, like mine and yours? I think it all sounds the same, mostly, the White hydraulic over/under is controlled electrically. I have trouble shifting when it's in overdrive, not so much in direct, none in low, am I missing anything? Thank you Chris, have a good one!
The 3 speed in the American is the same basic unit, the big difference is it shifts with solenoids and a switch instead of mechanical linkage. It's normal for them to shift hard in overdrive, under drive makes for the easiest shifting.
@@ThatOliverGuyChris Thanks for the info.
You probably said and I probably missed but what tractor was that?
2050
Chris, I have a 2-85 that has problems with the under/over drive. It was getting hard to shift between under, direct, and over and then it got stuck in under. I would really like to PM you somehow but I don't know how.
You can email me at Hpocachris@gmail.com
My 2-85 has no noticeable speed change from direct to under. But holds in direct downhill and coasts in under.
That's weird. Even in road gear?
We have an 1855 and it jumped out of 3rd gear one time and now it won’t move in any of the gears. Haven’t taken it apart yet but what do you think it could be
Does it load the engine if you try to move it in gear, or does it not move at all with no load on the engine?
That Oliver Guy - Chris Losey it does not load the motor at all
Does the chain coupler spin? My first guess is the hub broke free on the main clutch disc. If the chain coupler does spin, see if transmission input shaft is turning. The splines may have stripped there. If that's turning, I would pull the transmission cover. You may have a broken shift rail or shift fork.
How much are the rebuild kits? I’m putting one in a 1900 project and if they arnt too terribly I’d let you rebuild mine.
Last time I bought a kit it was about $350, and a new sprag was about the same.
Is that the original steering cap, where can I find one?
Korves Oliver has them. Www.korvesoliver.com
Chris, I had an early 1850D one time and it had a O/U swapped in place for the hydra-power, they had it hooked up to the original pull for the hydra-power. When that swap is done does the linkage swap or was that a "Rigged" setup? Being a IH and Deere guy, I wanted a Oliver.............It was fun but had to sell it to get a down payment for a property. Some day I would love an 1950 to grind feed with, but don't think the neighbors would last long with that Detroit screaming.
Usually when someone swapped the just hooked up the hydrapower linkage to the over/under. There were a few things to change out if you moved it up to the throttle lever, including the throttle lever itself.
@@ThatOliverGuyChris yes 👍 that's how I did my 1555 it was just easier hooking it up to the hydrapower linkage.
WHAT MODEL is your Oliver? I just found a beautifully restored 1750 over/Under Hydraul that looks probably better than it did when it was brand new. It's been used as a parade tractor. Everything works as it should, but he is asking 10,500 for the Tractor. I didn't recall them running this high in my area ever..but, then again people are buying small farms and want these older tractors more than they did even 7 yrs ago. I just wish they hadn't found my beloved Olivers!!!!
The one in this video is my 2050.
Have you ever considered opening an Oliver/White help desk?
I have, but I'm not sure how much time that would leave me for farming. Lol
Chris! Quick question. 2-180 works in direct but has nothing in under or over. What would you think happened?
Totally stops in under and over? I'd say the 4 bolts that hold the planetary gear carrier to the drive gear broke off or backed out.
@@ThatOliverGuyChris yep. Just stops moving. We don't have much for history on it. It was bought at an estate sale. I know the owner used it all the time.
@@jeremycherny2041 it could possibly be a broken sun gear shaft, but I'd put my money on the planetary carrier. It seems unlikely that the sprag clutch and the overdrive clutch pack both went out at the same time. No matter how you slice it, it has to come out to be fixed
@@ThatOliverGuyChris thank you
So going down hill in under drive is not advisable. Is it advisable to go down hill in over drive?
Over drive is fine for going down hill, under is the only speed that free wheels.
Are the gears synchronized
Nope.
are these more or less durable than ih's?
From what I have seen, the over/under is more durable. It seems like when I see an IH for sale there are 2 conditions for the TA, 'freshly rebuilt' or 'out'. My experience with IH is VERY limited, so take that with a grain of salt.
@@ThatOliverGuyChris Grew up on an IH farm, and usually well worn IH's at that. They always seemed to go out on one side or the other (hi side or lo side), but not both. Most would be out on the Lo side. It was always interesting to find out with a new-to-you tractor. Most of the time, you'd find out pulling a load down the road. Pull too long a hill, pull the TA, and better be quick with the brakes and throttle as you come to a halt with the throttle wide open in a hurry....
Crude, to say the least. Thank goodness they were underpowered or you'd tear it up in an afternoon.
Never shift into under when going down hill lol.
I remember learning that. Dad got me started on cultivating with the 2-105, and said don't use under drive going down the big hill. I could have sworn he said use under drive going down the big hill. What ride that was!
@@ThatOliverGuyChris the farmer I was working for never said anything i did the same going down hill spreading poop.
I thought something was wrong with the tractor he just laughed when I asked.