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The original video is tame. But there are plenty of personal attacks under an X16 video. People are openly calling the 8-bit guy a scammer. I don't think you have looked through the comment section of videos about those products. My observation is that people are forming militant group, and people are hating on each other. A small section of the community, yes, but these groups have a tendency to grow.

@@andyhu9542 I very rarely read CZcams comments. Usually check the top few. But you know what, I'm not surprised. Haters gonna hate and all that. But your video was focusing on / calling out the Byte Attic video, not the comment trolls. So I addressed that, and said I don't think it's warranted to call them out on this. I happen to agree with them, and I find their work absolutely amazing and deserving of proper recognition and money, and the points raised in the video you criticized both civilized and valid. The mere presence of comment trolls shouldn't make speaking out against a hyped business or project inherently unethical. I'm sure in the grand scheme of things, there is an equal amount of comment trolls who are die hard 8 bit guy stans.

@@Dani_Jz I'm not criticizing the content of the video (In fact I said I agree with it to a point of making the same arguments in a completely independent video!), but the form it is presented. You can have 100% valid points in your video and promote negative feelings among people. No human behavior is spontaneous. No 'haters' will pop out of the ground and just 'gonna hate' no matter what you do. Making a video ridiculing the 8-bit guy as some stupid scammer will make more haters.

There are people in the retro community beyond chiptune fans... The 2151 should really be a add-on card instead of built-in default sound system. In that way the main system is cheaper, more people will buy it, economics of scale kick in, and you can then enjoy beautiful FM and MIDI music for less!

I promise I will make a Z80 explained in detail video at some point.

I promise I will make a Z80 explained in detail video at some point.

The 80286 already has a protected mode. It's extremely crude but technically it will protect. People just don't care about it and use it as a fast 8088. I don't think I can protect the 8088, the bus is too complicated and some edge cases will slip through the cracks causing malicious code gaining system access.

@@andyhu9542 the 80286s protected mode is so bad was basically never used. I wish there was a way to shim an app so that you could tell a non protected mode app in DOS to become protected and behave properly

@@AlsGeekLab There is indeed a way. I think Microsoft did it with Windows/286 and many third-party multitasking OSes on PC also did something similar.

@@andyhu9542 yes, but they still don't behave. For example, when I run TCP software that needs to run in the background and I go to my word processor then swap back, the system halts. It would be great to have true backgrounding rather than task swapping

My board is MATX so there is little point to make it 'much smaller'. I will move to a four-layer design eventually but currently I need to be able to cut traces including power and ground. Thanks for the advice anyway!

I like it, too! Before I see your comment I cannot pinpoint what exactly do I like about the project. It's the journey, the feeling of finally achieving something after years of hard work.

I'm busy producing the documents, and videos explaining the mode switching process. You can subscribe to my channel if you don't want to miss that video.

I think it's mostly for people who don't own original hardware as prices have gone up quite a bit. But as you have said, they missed the mark by setting an even higher price.

Well it earned me almost 700k views and bootstrapped the channel, and get some people interested in retro Z80 stuff again. So I consider it a win for me and the community, one which can't be achieved without a little bit of clickbait, unfortunately. I would dispute the 'as everybody else does' part: so far I haven't seen one design that changes/enhanced the behavior of the Z80 so much as I did.

But guess what? You cannot write a piece of code for the Pi directly to the hardware without signing an NDA with Broadcom. The X16 runs circles around the Pi in terms of hardware openness.

Your voice is being heard!

I don't think so... If you say the Z8000 then maybe. But the 8086 is pretty much what Faggin would have designed if his hands weren't tied to the back by binary compatibility with the 8080. Too many instructions are stuffed into the DD/ED/FD prefix space that the encoding is inefficient. By the way, the company's name is Z'i'log.

Nope, why?

@@andyhu9542 10 days ago. Because I walked past somebody who looked like you.

@@Mi-583 I was on the other side of the earth from Australia 10 days ago (almost).

@@andyhu9542 lol! 👍

Coming soon!

Thank you!

From an interview I saw with Bill Herd, the 2000s and 2010s are the dark ages for the retro computing community (golden ages for collectors). Demoscenes are inactive, forums are maintained by a few enthusiastic members and many old machines are binned since they are perceived as 'worthless'.

Cheers to both teams!

I don't know whether you have seen the instruction set of the 65C816: it's less '24-bit addressing' and more '256 16-bit address spaces glued together'. This makes the extended memory very clumsy to use and is the reason why I'm not using the 65C816.

@@andyhu9542 Yes, I do know the instruction set - and it looks interesting to me. I did a lot of 6502 programming back in the day, and going back to that doesn't really appeal .. lot and lots of instructions to do anything. The 65C816 would be interesting as it's 6502-like, but with many more instructions and addressing modes. I've done some Z80 coding, but not a huge amount... anyway, it's just my personal opinion... 65c816 is 8-bit, but with some new things to learn...

@@FlyingPhilUK Then I would suggest looking at the SNES or Apple IIGS. Both systems are superior to the one mentioned in this video in terms of sound and graphics. I like to 'pair' or 'balance' my systems, and those two systems are (in my opinion) suitable pairing for the 65C816. Putting a 65C816 in this system is like putting a V12 in a civic.

@@andyhu9542 Yes, those were the two successful products that used the 'c816... - I'll probably have a go at a '816 project based on something from the Mister Project...

The c816 is just an enhanced 6502.. and your VDP is quite fancy.. better than Apple II GS and probably better than SNES...

It's for sale right now. Are you gonna go buy one?

My controller design fully utilizes the 256 combinations of 8 digital signal. There are 4 'normal' buttons, which can be pressed down individually, that's 16 combinations. There are 4 directions, which can be pressed in 8 ways: up, down, left, right and 4 diagonal directions. However, the player cannot press opposite directions (like up AND down) due to the physical structure of the controller, that leaves some combination for me to use. I encoded the select button as 'pressing up and down at the same time' and start as 'pressing left and right at the same time'. Then between direction pad and start and select I get another 16 combinations. 16 times 16 is 256, bingo.

Agree. The CHIP-8 is literally called 'fantasy console' and the CX16 is 'dream computer'. See the link?

If you don't have time to play with those old computers, I would love to purchase them. People fire up their old computers because they are fed up with the new ones. Modern computers are filled with ads and distractions and prompts that are not for your interest. Everything is a subscription and/or behind a paywall.

because 40yo devices are dying and are expensive

@@joel230182 Exactly. The X16 started off as a reproduction machine but with a improved graphics chip. It did spiral out of control a little. Also, there is a reason why people are moving back to 8-bit computing. It's a trend that cannot be ignored.

@@andyhu9542 Absolutely, 8-bit computing offers a unique aesthetic/experience. The immediacy of just pressing start and play. No input lag. People can't get enough of pixel art. Newer generations are inheriting/acquiring nostalgia for retro machines(which is beautiful). The opportunity of touching the inner soul of a machine without intermediate abstractions. Also retro machines have their own distinct flavor as oppossed to modern machines that look and feel the exact same. And more. And I think that applies to other retro machines as well, such as 16 & 32 bit. Even the Mattel Aquarius is getting revived. What a time to be alive!

A big chunk of that cost is paying for the big dip solder machine that they never used in production. The price is reasonable, but it could have been cheaper if the team did not make unexperienced engineering mistakes.

I learned about that fact after I posted this video. And I learned that directness being a Dutch trait from your comment. I'm learning a lot from the community (and clearly have a lot to learn)! I would also like to redesign the X16 for free, as you can see from my list of improvements that I think would be good for the project. I would also like to have a Neo6502, but I cannot find any documentation or tutorial that would allow me to use the tile engine on the Neo6502.

I think the haters' argument is that those machines are sold way too expensively to capitalize on the hype, which is a civilized way of saying 'borderline scam'. There are many things wrong with this idea, but ignoring or trivializing the haters will only make them stronger.

They all have FPGAs in.

Foenix computers make heavy use of FPGA for both sound and graphics. The sound can technically be original SIDs, but those chips are super expensive these days. And the graphics chip is pure FPGA design.

'Using a video system that has more processing power than the system's own central processor' is not 'stupid'. It's literally all computing devices that we use every day. Phones, laptops, desktops, game consoles, everything that's more complex than a smart thermostat has more power in its GPU than its CPU. The issue arises when a subsystem can run the main system in emulation. Disagreeing is not hating, but ridiculing someone else's project is. Finally, the X16's processor is like 8 C64 stacked on top of each other. For throwing tiles around, it's not THAT bad. In fact, no games to date have managed to exhaust the X16's CPU performance.

You and a million others have pointed this out in the comment section.

Well, bad news for you: my Z80 computer project uses a custom keyboard layout that swaps Ctrl and Caps Lock (and maybe others) to simplify key combos (I hate the position of the Ctrl key). The good news is that the keys are still the same, and everything will work on an emulator. Just some programs that make heavy use of Ctrl key will give you a sore pinky, like they do on modern keyboards.

_Why does it use all through hole components and isn't sold as a kit?_ David has said multiple times that, while he would have liked to offer it as a kit, he didn't want the support burden of helping people assemble it (or crying to him when they bugger something up). _Why isn't the design open hardware_ "Open hardware" is a completely meaningless statement, and I wish people would stop using it. _and the software atleast source available?_ Because it's licensed code from Cloanto (the current copyright holders of Commodore ROMs), and those are the terms. 6502 code isn't hard to follow though, grab your fave disassembler and get going, licensing terms be damned. _Why is the documentation sooo bad?_ This is a legitimate gripe. While I think the rest of the architecture is pretty well documented (because they're all off-the-shelf parts), the VERA docs are terrible. David's under the impression that having a Wiki for X16 documentation is some sort of magic bullet, and he couldn't be more wrong.

@@throwaway6478 Open hardware means the schematic and gerber files are available. It means anybody could make the board. Its not meaningless. I was mostly talking about the vhdl for the fpga. Why isn't that available? Or the source for the ATTiny? All of these are to be anti competitive. How will the x16 ever hit a "critical mass" so there is actually software available for it if it is locked down. It could never be an educational platform in it's current state. The goals of the project don't align with what it actually is.

@@throwaway6478 The kit was unworkable and he was told this repeatedly at the start. The *only* way you can do a kit is PCB + Vera, source everything else yourself. For the reasons you state. It probably is open hardware, near enough. The Cloanto licensing limits software, but it's indicative of the issues that they ever did this. Working on it is horrendous.

I really don’t understand those flame wars. I like and use all 3. On my channel I try to do as much as possible with original hardware, but that’s only if I have nostalgia for it and can obtain it. Otherwise I’ll use MAME or even used a Mister FPGA on occasion. The great thing is that we have all of these options now. I just bought my friend an Anbernic and I have one too. I prefer real hardware but usually I play in bed before going to sleep. I don’t have a TV in the bedroom or consoles. So playing this is great.

@@CallousCoder I try to understand it, but all I can really do is guess at the mindsets going into them. Some have valid complaints. Some are just ignorant and need to research the topic more. Some just look for something to complain about.

@@InfernosReaper Aaah yeah the internet, is the home of the trolls 🧌 always complaining

The main problem with the "proper hardware" argument that I have is exactly the situation the Commander X16 team ran into: it's not there. Even back in the day, by the time the VIC20 came out, the video chips were all being made custom; anything fancier/newer than about Apple ][ level graphics (The Apple ][ was a late 1970's discrete design that Apple used into the 80's even as everyone around them modernized into designs that could do sprites, etc) was using custom chips. Those designs are not in production any longer, and were usually trade secrets kept close by their designers and makers. We're at the point where any kind of 8 bit style graphics that's beyond a late 70's discrete design isn't really doable in any kind of mass quantity without an FPGA or similar arrangement if you want any kind of graphics at the level of the 1980s 8 bit computers with reasonable graphics, let alone if you want it slightly modernized. Even old-style audio chips are at minimum about to be that way as well, though I personally think we're there as well. The X16 team ran headlong into this very concern in their production with audio chips as well, causing unexpected last minute chip sourcing issues leading to unanticipated last minute design changes. Even 8-bit processors themselves may not be much longer in production; IMHO the writing is on the wall. The realities of trying to design old-school style modernized computers is harsh, and I think that holding any project to the "proper" or "actual" hardware standard is essentially a non-starter these days. Maybe 10 years ago it was more feasible and reasonable to expect, but the old stocks have dwindled, scarcity is in, fake chips have become pervasive, and it's just not something that can be reliably done any longer. I'm working right now on building out an unused motherboard from 1978 that's an unbuilt OEM version of the Synertek SYM-1, and chip prices (along with fakes!) are insane over what I could've done just 10 years ago. I'm looking at $300 for parts, and hoping I don't get hung out to dry with fakes (2114 RAM, 2532 RIOT chip, and on and on). It's a harsh modern world out there.

@@CallousCoder This is one reason I like my modern C64 MAXI. The custom keyboard is good enough to clear up the nastiness of using a modern keyboard with VICE on my main computer, while saving original hardware the wear and tear of continuing to use it often. It's been a dream. No, it's not *exactly* the same, but the look and feel is close enough in daily use that it continues to bring me joy even though it's just emulation, from my couch, on my modern TV, where my 12 year old and I can have fun with it playing games and goofing off. I'm looking forward to (hopefully) a full size replica Amige 500 next from these people for the same reason. All the joy, none of the headaches of maintaining the old hardware unless I'm REALLY feeling like pulling it out.

Adding a male header to a board is negligable. Pin headers are pretty cheap. However, molex looks cooler! At least expansions will be cheap to manufacture, if any come out.

@@drbpony male header was my suggestion, or even a dip socket