The 8-bit arms race is frustrating
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
- I certainly wish the HEC to be a success, but I don't see how.
The advantage of the X16s and AGONs is that they are modern successors to greatly successful systems. That means they have a large audience of nostalgic gamers. One rich person with a crush on his/her old C64/BBC/spectrum can fund the entire project. The HEC is (at beat, maybe?) a remote relative of the MSX (it is based on the same idea of a unified architecture on different hardware). The majority of MSX users are in Japan, don't watch CZcams. And I don't speak Japanese. And the MSX has several open source, completely compatible clones and an official successor (the MSX3 project). Again, I just don't see a gap that the HEC can fill.
Chapters:
00:00 The new VDP design for the HEC
03:47 V9958 is just not powerful enough
06:53 A weak VDP is not the HEC's fault. (what the HEC is)
08:35 Maybe the mistake is mine. (why the HEC won't sell) - Věda a technologie
Im not sure I completely follow whats being said. But when the X16 was shown... I thought to myself.. Why? As a kid, I liked messing around with the C64. I made a sprite, and controlled it with a joystick, following examples in the manual. But, Id quickly learn, that commercial games required a Tile Editor (which wasnt included), and that Standard Basic was not even close to being fast enough, for the kinds of games that I might want to TRY to program. Couple that, with my lack of Math skills... I realized that I was not cut out for Programming. I loved to Design video games (on paper), and Im a pretty decent "Concept Artist"... but I know my limitations, and programming is something Ill never be good at... no matter how many tutorials are out there. I also realized, that even if I WAS able to Program well... that would leave me with no time for complex game design work. Some of my designs, have taken many months worth of sketches and working out various details about the game, its levels, enemies, its look, controls... etc.
Even though the x16 is supposedly much faster than a C64... its still slow for 100% Basic programming efforts. I believe the system also lacks a lot of the Editors and other tools, that would help a programming Noob like myself, to make anything with it. And then there is likely a lot of Hardware limitations to deal with, which to get around, would require further complexity, that someone like me would give up on...
Which brings me to the Point... in that if you are a person that is capable of understanding how to Program your own Tile Map editors, code in some Assembly... etc... then why do you need or want to program on a Severely Limited system? The Commodore only had 8 sprites... so why use that, when you could be developing on a system that had a limit of 200 hardware sprites, instead? Otherwise, you need to make special hacks and methods to get around these pesky limitations... and there will be a lot more Efforts, and a Lot more compromises, in the process.
I would think that the Charm of a Retro Machine, "for existing egg head programmers" ...is not merely the limitations.. but the Simplicity, and Speed of creating something fun and new. Like you said earlier... +70 pages of documented features, isnt what most retro programmers are interested in. Especially since, such programmers can likely whip up their own game frameworks, on modern PC hardware + Software engines. They can choose to limit their games to whatever resolutions, and or other limits that they choose... while still having their games being Infinitely faster.. and potentially easier to program, to boot.
What Sold so many C64's wasnt the fact that people could toy around with some basic on it... but instead, to play some unique games on it... and to experience some cool Synth music on it.
I believe the only real way to make and Sell a Successful "Retro" system today... is for it to have Unique.. yet affordable games, that you can not get anywhere else. That you can not simply download on your PC, via some emulator. There would need to be some sort of copy protection... just like many modern consoles. The games do not have to be the most graphically superior. But they need to be very addictive, challenging, and balanced. Super Mario Brothers, for the NES... was ultimately a "MUST HAVE" game.. and it sold the NES systems like MAD. Unique Controllers... like 360 Degree Spinners, Trackballs, Yokes, 3d Glasses, Light Guns, Force Feedback Steering Wheels...etc.. are all a huge part of what made the 80s arcade games, such Timeless Classics.
But... If a programmer already has the skills to make a fantastic arcade game... then why would they limit their creation and sales, to a limited platform? When instead, they could sell their games across many different platform, all at the same time... and make much more earning potentials?
The console would have to already have a LOT of interest, and pre-sales, before any programmer would even consider having an Exclusive deal, with single platform. And as such, the only way to get massive sales.. would be to not only develop good hardware and software tools... but... to actually get a few very talented teams together, to produce TOP TIER games, that people couldnt live another week... without having to own for themselves. That would also mean, needing a creative director / manager... with regular meetings and play-tests, with non-biased, random, testers... similar to Focus Groups, and or Putting games in an actual arcade, to see how much money they Earn... how much interest was observed, and secretly asking what the kids playing... felt about the game experience. In fact, in the Elder days of Atari... they used to put prototypes out on the floor, for any employees to be able to play, on their breaks. When it was noticed that certain games were being played often, and by a lot of the staff... that was a huge Green Light, to push the game further down the development path. That said, there were still countless projects, that made it all the way to the Arcade Tests... and the public just didnt dig-it... and the whole game was completely scrapped, as a result.
Unfortunately... most of todays "Beta Testers" are way too much of "Yes Men" ,to be of any decent use / value. These testers are often not honest nor critical enough... and those that might be Critical... the team tends to Boot off the project, as they dont want to hear negative feedback... nor do they want to have to accept having to make some pretty radical changes.
Nintendo has routinely put out Inferior Hardware to the Competition... and Still has managed to keep on top... because they tend to have much better game designers / creators, and make far more universally enjoyed games. Ultimately, its the Games that sell their systems... not the Superior Graphics / Hardware. Great Graphics can help sell things... but only to a certain point. Not everyone will buy a game, until they see a lot of positive reviews... and or, they have tried it for themselves. If the game isnt that fun... it does not matter how good it looks. Eventually the sales will cease... and it will ultimately bomb.
Now... maybe if you created a special Handheld, that had a built in Spinner... as well as dual analog buttons on the top, for pong / tempest and driving games.. you might have something Unique that the big companies currently Lack. As most modern companies, no longer produce any Unique controllers... and those damn mini analog sticks are simply AWFUL for precision game control (there is a mechanical way to fix this... but these big companies seem too ignorant to be able to figure it out).
Id also add... that a good Vector Mode, should be added to such a system. Games like Tempest, Asteroids Deluxe, and Star Wars, may not be that graphically impressive by todays standards... but they have a unique look, and they Play fantastically. Possible Stereoscopic 3D versions of Vector games, would also be flippin amazing. Though, that might require some sort of VR display... Or at minimum, a perfectly sync'd shutter glass solution.
Anyway... if people really want to make a Game Programming environment as Friendly as possible... then that should be the top level goal, rather than mere imposed hardware limitations. Of course, I believe there are some existing simplified Drag and Drop type of Game Engines out there already, for the PC. These also already include the Sprite editors, and all other needed tools, built in. Ive never worked up the nerve to try them for myself... so I dont know how effective and or limited, they actually are.
I have some Fantastic Arcade Game designs... but sadly, I lack the Cranial Prowess, to turn them into Reality... = [
I also lack the funds, to be able to pay and direct a team to make them... =[
To close... dudes like the 8-Bit guy, (and yourself)... are a very Unique breed of person. I believe there are far less individuals on this level of capabilities, than he realizes... and that most whom are at that level... will be putting their efforts into modern hardware / software. Very few people today, are going to be programming a pricy 8-Bit toy, with Assembly code.
Sega Master System games can look really good. That might have been a better evolution path from the 9918 than the 9938/58.
An 8 bit computer that runs CPM in protected mode would be really nice. A Z80 than runs at 20MHz+ would also be nice.
I thought the idea was about the technical challenge of implementing protected mode -not of making a product which could be sold.
Regarding feature creep, perhaps an 8-bit retro rule book is in order. Just like with automobile racing, there are different classes to compete in. Eight bit computers with non-traditional capabilities could be considered to be in a 'super stock' or 'pro-mod' class rather than 'stock'. There could even be an 'unlimited' class -something like top fuel dragsters or funny cars... only with 8-bit CPUs.
TIL a new word: greaterer. Many thanks for that!
I understand your frustration. I've been working on building my own 16 bit processor, but I know it won't ever be successful, regardless of how powerful it is. Right now, I'm trying to go even more niche than just a retro computer, I'm trying to make it into an educational tool for understanding how to construct supercomputer topologies. I'm not sure I'm in a position to be giving advice, since I haven't succeeded at all, but the spirit of retro computing is more about building amazing projects from simple components, which the x16 and agon both completely fail at, in my opinion. They are removing all the interesting programing and hardware hacks, and replacing them with FPGAs and CPLDs. Even if the HEC doesn't become popular, I'd still buy it, because I value ingenious design over a brute-force FPGA.
If you are interested in Z80 multi tasking you should spend a weekend looking at one of the older (1980's) Wang VS minicomputers (mini-mainframes) - as for your your HEC machine, why not prototype it on a modified (actually, extended) RC2014+ bus (the second row of bus pins is only half used). At least that way there are further options (including RPi VDP) and you can sell smaller kits or PCB's wiith BOM - there is a YT video of an ESP32+RPI bus driver getting a 20MHz Z80 to do 50+MHz on a RC2014 bus. - at least that way you dont have to attack the whole of the HEC ecosystem all at once before it can be used by others, and "financially viable" can be left off the table for the 1st itteration / PoC.
I have a RC2014 mini, that will work.
Can I be an advocate for the devil and say... who would even want HEC to be a `viable commercial product`? I think the fantasy of that is more enjoyable than the reality of sourcing components, assembly, quality control, returns, customer service and so on. Not saying a future iteration couldn't end up selling well, but I'd focus on building a proof of concept around purely the protected mode first and make videos about that to at least gain an audience. Else I fear you'll demotivate yourself by drowning in feature creep before it's even build.
The "openness" of these enthusiast-driven retro projects limits their commercial success. The number of users that actually care what's hidden inside a keyboard/case with a few I/O ports is always going to be limited. These devices could all be implemented via emulation on a $10 stick computer module. The most expensive hardware parts would be the keyboard and case. What is the point of designing around a real 6502 or Z80 for anything other than a hobbyist project? The people who care about the retro-purity of what's inside the case are being irrationally religious.