The Commander X16 does not deserve the hate
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
- This is a video that I have been wanting to make for quite a long time. I find there to be a lot of negative comments online about the Commander X16 that are technically correct, but practically harmful to the greater community. It is my opinion that diversity and solidarity are not mutually exclusive, and they are both essential for a healthy community. Therefore, I wish people can stop hating the Commander X16 and start working together to make it better.
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:42 The Byte Attic Video
01:50 People who hate the X16 haven't built their own computers.
03:09 The underlying issue
05:26 Conclusion - Věda a technologie
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saying that its bad makes you a hypocrate
@@Seven71987 I don't see why that is the case.
@@andyhu9542 Why say it's bad if you post that it doesn't deserve the hate.
@@Seven71987 Because many things we love have flaws, especially retro computers. A lot of people like their childhood computers because of the special ways they were 'bad', so to speak.
@@andyhu9542 nobody's perfects, nothing's perfect but saying it's bad is dumb use flawed imperfect but still great, c16 doesnt follow modern pc standards tgat we take for granted
I might not like the direction the x16 project went either but I'd much rather live in a world that has it than one that doesn't. It does lots of things right and a lot of things wrong, and it's a good reminder that designing and manufacturing your own computer isn't easy at all, but nonetheless rather impressive that it's happening anyways.
I would certainly encourage criticism of the project but it needs to be kept constructive and without people acting like they know everything about engineering when odds are they don't.
Excellent comment.
I really like your video. You’ve nailed a really good point of view:
“I like retro computers, so long as I can add HDMI, megabytes of memory, fast storage, wifi, use modern bluetooth controllers and play games with modern mechanics and use tool sets comparable to modern Linux distributions.”
Um… so not a retro computer!
That said, I’ve just paid my UK import tax on an brand new Commander X16, which I’ll write semi-functional modern software for on a 2024 PC using an emulator, checking it works on hardware every now and then while the Commander X16 sits next to the ZX Spectrum Next on the desk gathering dust 😂
The haters are all welcome to make their own personal computer.
Great point!
You're absolutely correct, designing a system is hard, especially one that is supposed to use old style components that are at least 20 years out of production. Truth is, nobody knows what they want in a retro computer, anything that's made will be expensive as a niche item and trying to sell these things to the educational market is slightly delusional. To the first point, nobody knows what they want in terms of old cpu/fpga because they are trying to recapture the feeling of being 15 again and some people feel dirty about using an FPGA, there are no logical reasons but they will never recapture those feelings. Second point, something that is made in a run of only a couple thousand is going to be expensive, more expensive than a typical computer you can buy off the shelf but people feel as though "it's old" so it should be cheap, the customer is delusional. Third, the educational market is totally unsuitable, old computers actually have a very steep learning curve compared to a modern computer and far less utility, it just doesn't seem that way to us because we have fond memories of painstakingly typing crap into a keyboard for hours on end because that's what was available. Years ago I started designing something similar and when I asked the community about what they wanted in a TRS-80-like system the feature creep kept increasing, you may as well buy a modern computer at some point. These retro machines are fun to tinker with for a few hours and then pack up and never look at them again because they simply don't serve the same purpose that they used to.
Well said. I personally never groked the idea of either X16 or the Agon, both seemed pointless to me compared to update/repairs to the real things with add-ons, emulated drives, chip recreations, new PCBs and parts spares to scratch my maker itch, or on the other extreme turn key high fidelity full size recreations like theC64 or generic platforms like MisterFPGA that just allow you to "get 8 bit shit done", both options of which I own, but people trying "evolutions" should not be an issue, and if others dig it, OK.
The biggest problem with 'Just use/fix the old ones' is that in a number of cases, fixing requires some rather advanced (for the newbie) diagnostic and soldering equipment and skills, or parts that simply aren't being made any more, are difficult or impossible to emulate or recreate in FPGA (Like the analog SID chip) and are of a dwindling supply that is also quickly becoming filled with counterfeits.
Now, as I said to a friend of mine recently; Recreation is not restoration. You can replicate an old thing, but that doesn't make it that old thing. Now, a lot of people wouldn't care, and that's completely valid. But it's also completely valid to care about that original thing and want it to be as close to the original as possible. The X16, as far as I can tell, being only peripherally interested in the whole vintage computing thing, is trying to be as similar to the old as possible while still being all new (Or as all new as possible). Giving one the vintage feel rather than just being a raspberry pi in a fancy shell, which will let new people have the experience without dipping into the rapidly falling supplies of actual old systems.
They may have made tens of millions of the things, but they're forty some years old now and some of these chips were prone to failure even when they were brand new, after all. Throw in the odd capacitor plague and just plain rough treatment over time, and you've chopped a *significant* portion of that initial supply off, even before you get to the people who just plain threw it out after decades in a closet or something.
It's different people, mostly. The Agon/Neo/X16/M65/SpecNext people want to design new hardware and software and implement old software for a system without the downsides. The collector/repairers are usually, not always, different people.
@@paulscottrobson That's a great concise sum-up.
Appreciate the measured and balanced words, along with the honest opinions that aren't hateful. I really like the X16 but I 100% agree that it could be better than it is. That said, it's still an amazing system considering its a hobby project. I've always taken David's "requirements" for his dream computer as aspirational, so for me it isn't a huge deal that the used a microcontroller (appropriate for PS/2) or an FPGA (almost a necessity for video) or that it's not cheap (my solution to this was to not buy Gen 1 - innovative, I know!). I could take or leave the YM2151. Getting rid of that old part would make the system less complex, cheaper, and I believe would also eliminate the need for clock-stretching in that address range. I'd rather that cost be directed into a CPLD that broke out the data bank register so that it could use a 65C816 as originally envisioned. The biggest annoyance by far was the absence of project management... You could see how badly it slowed things down and led to decisions that weren't fully baked slipping into the design.
I, too, appreciate a balanced video. Even within the X16 community, folks have always been divided on various decisions made throughout the project, and more than a few people got very frustrated with the delays as the pandemic wore on and design and hardware debugging challenges slowed down the project. But the vast, overwhelming majority of folks were mature enough to understand that the system wasn't necessarily going to fit all of their personal "dream computer" ideals.
I would like to correct that the project was originally envisioned as a 6502 computer, not a 65C816. This can be verified in the earliest videos about the project. The idea of placing an 816 onto the board was always considered a bonus objective, due to the similar wiring of the two chips.
Personally, I think that the VERA grew a bit disappointingly large in scope, and I'm disappointed that the system was never able to get PS/2 polling to work at 8MHz, requiring PS/2 to be off-loaded to the microcontroller that controlled system power. But I am also of the opinion that haters can go and build their own computer -- if it were me leading the project, I likely would have envisioned an SMT-based project that started with the 65C816 and would have been targeting something similar to a simplified SNES architecture. But I, like Dave, do not have the chops to design such a system on my own, and unlike Dave I do not have hardware-savvy contacts who might buy into my vision and design such a product in my stead. On the other hand, maybe I don't have to because there's always Foenix Retro Systems, and that lady is crazy smart at hardware engineering.
But that's neither here nor there. Mostly, I hate the Agon guy because he made hating the X16 his promotional strategy for his competing 8-bit project. Truly a boorish and boring strategy, I felt all the same excitement towards the Agon as I would towards a half-speed video playback of paint drying. It bothered me more that people actually let the guy live rent-free in their heads for all that time. And I fully agree with Mr. Hu, this is a bad kind of division to promote within the larger community of retro platform enthusiasts. Especially because, in my estimation, the Agon is just a 68K strapped to a microcontroller that would emulate the rest of the computer. Clearly, I appreciate and value that the X16 tried to execute its vision with a minimal of dependence on FPGAs and microcontrollers. And I don't ultimately have anything personally against the Agon, in fact I likely wouldn't even remember anything about it but for the toxicity of its original creator.
Its a passion project, not Commodore reborn. Us retro nerds should celebrate all these projects, including Agon, Spectrum Next, Mega 65 etc... Personally, a proper retro case is a key component, and is where the Mega 65 and Spectrum Next shine over many others. That said, its all good!
Ah such a good balanced take.
I especially dislike when it turns personal in the comments. We can disagree on ideas but instead of insulting each other we should be learning from each other. People just don't seem to want to help inform people why they think the way they do and people don't want to spend the time to listen either.
Humans don't like being wrong when we think we've figured something out. We realize that being wrong is fantastic. It's when we get to learn something.
*"We should realize...". There I was wrong. 😂
i love the X16, but you're still correct.
I am pretty happy with my x16 and am glad it exists, its the system for retro lovers. I would have liked it more if they used a better fpga for better graphics as it matches retro systems but doesn't exceed them in all areas. I was hoping the line draw features etc would be more powerful. I'll probably get the agon but the support is pretty weak, I don't buy retro systems to make crappy basic programs. I am strongly against making the whole thing in fpga because whats the point, just get a mister. Agon seems a lot cheaper but you need to buy a bunch of adaptors and upgrades to get what the x16 has.
Great video!
I've got all the major "modern retro computers" - The Mega65, Spectrum Next, Agon Light, Commander X16, Foenix and the CMM2.
They are all good.
They are all attempting to do something a little different and that's a good thing!
I've got a little bit of an issue with Bernardo Kastrup and his "smear campaign" against other modern retro systems. I sometimes feel that he's focused only on the "learn how to build your own computer" angle.
I don't give a crap about learning to build my own computer, I've got Ben Eater for that. What I want in a modern retro computer is to recreate that 80's 8 bit feel but with better and faster hardware, and a better BASIC. Basically, turn the system on and it boots to a BASIC environment in seconds. However, I want the machine to run faster, have better graphics, and have a better BASIC.
For me, I don't care if the hardware is an FPGA or even existed in the 80's.
I do understand that my wants and needs in a modern retro computer will be different than others, and that's OK, and the great thing is that we have a variety of systems to choose from that scratch different itches. If a machine doesn't "scratch your itch" you shouldn't disparage it.
To that end, most of the systems I mentioned above do what I want really well. The Mega65 has probably emerged as my favorite. The CMM2 is also right up there at the top for me, although I do understand that many won't consider it a modern retro machine. However, like I said I'm looking to re-create the aesthetic and the feel but don't really care a lot about the hardware it's done with.
The commander X16 would probably rise very close to the top except that it has a severe lack of centralized documentation issue right now .
The CMM2 is so underrated and misunderstood. The only gripe I had with it (and I own one) is that the Sprites aren't really sprites but objects that require a screen buffer to swap with, not real hardware emulated screens like real sprites. Other than that, the CMM2 is probably the fastest Basic Computer in the world.
I was interested in the initial pitch, but they seemed so set on making a new Commodore that they ended up recreating a lot of old computer flaws instead of a clean, efficient design with retro elements. Tried to state this reasonably and respectfully, but many people don't like criticism of things they like. I think some of what people call "hate" is just frustration at any criticism being treated as illegitimate by people trying to maintain hype. Anyway, I don't care much any more, it's just not for me.
Same always happens regardless of what `community` it is. People are stupid sadly.
I'm just impressed that you know of the Commodore Plus/4.
Hey your rant was too short and no fist waving! What do you think of the Spectrum Next have you seen that project?
The hardware is not very Spectrum. However, there is little you can do with that. The original limitation is arguably the harshest among all 8-bit home computers. If anyone want to write any game with an '8-bit' look that people are all familiar with (mostly from NES and SNES), then the hardware has to look like the Next. With that said, WHY DID YOU GUYS PUT IN THAT NEO-GEO STYLE SPRITE CHAINING? THAT'S WAY TOO OVERPOWERED!
@@andyhu9542 the Sega megadrive community has the sgdk to make new games on that platform easily in c which seems like a good thing I don't see any real equivalent for the new retro machines
How about a PCI graphics and sound card to recreate tiled graphics, hardware scrolling, sprites, etc, but with 16-bit colors and a maximum of 640x480 resolution? It can output RGB, SVideo, Scart and VGA. The sound card has a SID-like chip for sound. Games can target the card to recreate retro style games.
I believe market does not want retro computers as much as it wants the retro aesthetic, ie look and feel of mechanical input devices, chiptunes music, and analog video on a CRT. A card would be an easy way to achieve this.
I think you are on to something. People that like wood couches would not use them as daily drivers. There has to be something else to be gained by giving up the comfort of multi megabytes computers of today for all this to make sense.
The issue is, there aren't any PCI slots on modern PCs, and the signal requirements for a PCIe card is HARD. It takes a lot of money to make a card function on a PCIe bus, and no one in the community has that money, not even the big names. There are software tools out there, like Game Maker. That's as close to your idea as we may get. (By the way, did you get the idea from the 3DO game console cards?)
@@andyhu9542 I remember 3DO, but I got the idea after thinking about retro-consoles. PCI might be overkill. USB is fairly well documented and could work with some clever engineering to get around latency issues. The computer essentially sends the device commands and data which are processed as graphics and sound instructions. This means any programming language can be used.
A purely software works, but doesn't address the retro hardware qualities such as composite video and sound. Raspberry Pi is the closest thing to what I'm talking about.
@@bobweiram6321it is weird to praise composite on a video on a computer inspired by commodore. Commodore PET had a built in monitor. Later offerings had output for high definition bw monitor. C64 has s-video as does my plus4 as I just have checked on a real TV.
@@andyhu9542 Actually - PCIe can be done by FPGA, and not that big FPGAs, if I remember correctly. After all - even pcie 1x at first generation is more than fast enough for this. But that needs to be investigated.
I've messed with the x-16 in an emulator and i find it pretty neat. I guess it helps that it is that available. but also it does come from a channel with a substantially large following in the first place so there was already a lot of means to get it off the ground, which might be unreasonable for other projects, which is somewhat unfair. Although the x16 seems to do a lot to be more like a console and more deal in games but also as a home computer, where a lot of other projects try really hard at being just a home computer with all of those thorns with respect to graphics and sound capability and being limited by fill rate and various other factors which were real limitations to home computer games being actually enjoyable outside of pure nostalgic reasons.... but again, this might just be that the x16 as a project has a considerably larger community behind it just from having a considerably larger channel kicking it off.
As some who likes the X16 from what I've been able to emulate, this is a reasonable take that we desperately need.
I end up defending the x16 in Agon threads , vise versa. Those to, the Fenix.... All have their place. If you want to try to design your own expansion card, slot and all, the X16 lets you. If you want to get into 8bit for 50, the Atom lets you...
The issue with the Commander X16 is that I honestly don't know who is supposed to buy it. I've built a few simple computers ɓy reading old books and even succeeded in making functional replicas of Apple-1, KIM-1, etc, and the fun thing about doing that is the process. So for people that like building things, the X16 misses the mark. You could look at it like the evolution of a Commodore similar to what they did with the Spectrum Next, but it isn't compatible so it misses the mark again. Maybe it'll end up having a great and vibrant community that'll see it succeed anyway, but I fear that those that did end up buying it - did so to put it on their shelf or sell as a rarity on ebay.
I know the answer to your question: consider the X16 the world's most powerful Ben Eater computer. You can build it understand the chips and poof it runs amazing-looking games! It is like the IKEA of computers: you are more attached to it if you build it yourself. (TOO SAD they didn't go with this idea and refused to offer a kit over customer service concerns...) It's for people who wants to both tinker with hardware AND software. The KIM-1 and Apple -1 clones don't offer this because the programming potential is too limited.
People like me - I don't really care about the hardware in that I don't care if it's an FPGA or using authentic hardware. I also don't care to learn a lot about how it was designed. I (and many others) are simply looking to recreate that 80's 8-bit aesthetic/feel but with a system that is faster, with better graphics and a better BASIC. Systems like the X16, Mega65, Spectrum Next, Agon Light, Foenix and even the CMM2 do a good job of recreating that 8-but feel but with faster processing capability, better graphics etc....
@@andyhu9542 If one really wants the Ben Eater experience with the X16, they need to get my OtterX hardware. 100% X16 compatible, but you get to put it together and the board has educational silkscreen callouts for all of the functional blocks.
@@codingwithculp Have you tried Game Maker? I heard it is good for creating 8-bit looking games.
I agree that it's nicer for the community that there are a few new products but, perhaps, too modern in their hardware rather than nothing at all!
I also agree with you, Andy, that “retrogaming” is a large family of enthusiasts who do not have the same vision of this hobby.
There is the Retrogamer who wants pixel art (!), tiles, paralax, PSG sounds, FM synthesis tracks, natural scanline with true RGB 15625Khz output.
...And there is retrohardware(r) who wants retro hardware.
Implementing a gatearray or vdp in verilog, some qualified people know how to do it.
Recreating real retro hardware with a linebuffer, an archaic shifter (MB14241...), all in Tilemaps with priorities, it's a different story but, I think, more relevant to have a 100% retro product in hardware and software.
But... There is one thing that we cannot recreate, these are the old components for those who really want to make a retro 8Bits with a TTL video hardware, PROM palettes or older things ...
Just see a "poor" Galaxian hardware before the therm "sprite" was existing!
'Would love to see a 8Bits micro with this type of hardware! 😀
Super well spoken! Nice work.
The CX16 seems most successful as a CHIP-8 kind of project - the fact that you can just spin it up on an emulator from the very start is commendable.
Agree. The CHIP-8 is literally called 'fantasy console' and the CX16 is 'dream computer'. See the link?
Andy, I liked this video and you seem a sensible guy, but the video wasn't about cash.
Bernardo Kastrup (Byte Attic) is retired, and has made (or maybe inherited, I don't know) sufficient to basically continually design computers for fun (which you do yourself I think !).
He has never made a penny directly from sales of Agon (or anything else). He is close with a Home Computer museum near Eindhoven in NL, and they produced a few initial kits, but the vast majority are produced by Olimex, who while they are on good terms with him, are financially completely seperate. (Kastrup did actually offer to redesign the X16 properly for free without any payment or accreditation)
It should also be noted that directness is a Dutch trait, they have their own word for it :)
I didn't care for the video either. I think many of his criticisms are valid, but I don't think the "poking the bear" approach helps.
I'd quite like to see your video (or script).
Disclaimer: I'm the firmware guy on the Neo6502 project which is a sort of competitor (but about 1/10 of the price !)
I learned about that fact after I posted this video. And I learned that directness being a Dutch trait from your comment. I'm learning a lot from the community (and clearly have a lot to learn)! I would also like to redesign the X16 for free, as you can see from my list of improvements that I think would be good for the project. I would also like to have a Neo6502, but I cannot find any documentation or tutorial that would allow me to use the tile engine on the Neo6502.
@@andyhu9542 Proper documentation is being planned as I write ; I'm looking at 1980s manuals for ideas and styles.
I have plenty of problems with the x16's current design (e.g. It's built for an ATX case, but they turned an expansion header 90 degrees last minute for a cartridge port, the main supported case doesn't have enough clearance or slots in the back for expansion cards, etc etc). Nonetheless, I think the project team, including David, have been pretty transparent explaining the changes and issues, warts/mistakes and all, as they went. It's nothing unusual IMHO.
I would like to take a moment and praise one major thing they did right IMHO, and that's the choice to go with a standard keyboard layout. I understand why people like custom keyboards and all, but damn they add expense to a project. What's more, it makes using emulators of the products even more difficult than it needs to be. To me, that's inexcusable in a modern retro project design. It's what personally drove me from liking other modern retro projects [unnamed]. The availability of emulators is, I think, a key to allowing a modern retro computer to spread out. This, to me, means that it needs to be compatible with modern keyboard layouts, without funky additions, custom keyboards, or other quirks that will degrade the experience with the emulator. I very much understand the idea of liking older layouts for many reasons. I believe firmly though that if you want to build a project that's accessible for those who can't afford the custom hardware, it needs to be standard keyboard layout compatible in the modern era. Letting go is hard, but using an emulator with a non-standard layout is also annoying and difficult for n00bs. It's time to ease that barrier and let custom project keyboard go outside of specific replacement parts, and I think the Commander x16 project nailed this aspect. Even though I can't afford the hardware as a low income person, I'm able to use the emulator without thinking twice about my keyboard layout, and that is amazing IMHO.
Well, bad news for you: my Z80 computer project uses a custom keyboard layout that swaps Ctrl and Caps Lock (and maybe others) to simplify key combos (I hate the position of the Ctrl key). The good news is that the keys are still the same, and everything will work on an emulator. Just some programs that make heavy use of Ctrl key will give you a sore pinky, like they do on modern keyboards.
The FPGA is an interesting debate that's pretty easy to settle.
If you're just trying to get the feeling of the hardware and money is no object, FPGA
If you're trying to get something close enough, well-coded emulation is fine
If you want to create an actual device within a certain category to get the overall experience to be as close as possible, proper hardware is a must.
Easy, right?
I really don’t understand those flame wars. I like and use all 3. On my channel I try to do as much as possible with original hardware, but that’s only if I have nostalgia for it and can obtain it. Otherwise I’ll use MAME or even used a Mister FPGA on occasion.
The great thing is that we have all of these options now.
I just bought my friend an Anbernic and I have one too. I prefer real hardware but usually I play in bed before going to sleep. I don’t have a TV in the bedroom or consoles. So playing this is great.
@@CallousCoder I try to understand it, but all I can really do is guess at the mindsets going into them.
Some have valid complaints. Some are just ignorant and need to research the topic more. Some just look for something to complain about.
@@InfernosReaper Aaah yeah the internet, is the home of the trolls 🧌 always complaining
The main problem with the "proper hardware" argument that I have is exactly the situation the Commander X16 team ran into: it's not there. Even back in the day, by the time the VIC20 came out, the video chips were all being made custom; anything fancier/newer than about Apple ][ level graphics (The Apple ][ was a late 1970's discrete design that Apple used into the 80's even as everyone around them modernized into designs that could do sprites, etc) was using custom chips. Those designs are not in production any longer, and were usually trade secrets kept close by their designers and makers. We're at the point where any kind of 8 bit style graphics that's beyond a late 70's discrete design isn't really doable in any kind of mass quantity without an FPGA or similar arrangement if you want any kind of graphics at the level of the 1980s 8 bit computers with reasonable graphics, let alone if you want it slightly modernized. Even old-style audio chips are at minimum about to be that way as well, though I personally think we're there as well. The X16 team ran headlong into this very concern in their production with audio chips as well, causing unexpected last minute chip sourcing issues leading to unanticipated last minute design changes. Even 8-bit processors themselves may not be much longer in production; IMHO the writing is on the wall.
The realities of trying to design old-school style modernized computers is harsh, and I think that holding any project to the "proper" or "actual" hardware standard is essentially a non-starter these days. Maybe 10 years ago it was more feasible and reasonable to expect, but the old stocks have dwindled, scarcity is in, fake chips have become pervasive, and it's just not something that can be reliably done any longer. I'm working right now on building out an unused motherboard from 1978 that's an unbuilt OEM version of the Synertek SYM-1, and chip prices (along with fakes!) are insane over what I could've done just 10 years ago. I'm looking at $300 for parts, and hoping I don't get hung out to dry with fakes (2114 RAM, 2532 RIOT chip, and on and on). It's a harsh modern world out there.
@@CallousCoder This is one reason I like my modern C64 MAXI. The custom keyboard is good enough to clear up the nastiness of using a modern keyboard with VICE on my main computer, while saving original hardware the wear and tear of continuing to use it often. It's been a dream. No, it's not *exactly* the same, but the look and feel is close enough in daily use that it continues to bring me joy even though it's just emulation, from my couch, on my modern TV, where my 12 year old and I can have fun with it playing games and goofing off. I'm looking forward to (hopefully) a full size replica Amige 500 next from these people for the same reason. All the joy, none of the headaches of maintaining the old hardware unless I'm REALLY feeling like pulling it out.
All of these wars are like they were between each of the computer systems back in the day when we had so many different incompatible machines. Everyone was heavily invested in what they decided to buy. I bought an x-16 not because it's the most amazing thing ever designed (it's not bad actually) but because there are not a lot of machines we can all get behind. We can't all agree on one machine. That is just the way it is. For instance I loved the Colour Maximite. But that's no longer available. I think it is superior than the X16 in many ways but it doesn't have a large backing of people creating for it. The x16 feels different like it may gain momentum. They do not pretend that the current design and the current price are the ideal. They are going to design a smaller cheaper version. If this hate doesn't kill the project as dead as the Color Maximite.
Sad to hear that the Color Maximite was discontinued. I love that project.
I kind of agree and don't agree with the idea that this is just 'like they were back in the day'. It's like back in the day, but it kind of shouldn't. The people in this community today aren't a bunch of kids like the old days, but adults with knowledge and experience. And although a bit of user rivalry wouldn't hurt sales of those old machines back in the day, it may make or break a project in the present since these projects aren't backed by large companies.
@@andyhu9542 That is why people shouldn't torpedo less than perfect projects. No project will be perfect. I wish the X16 was 65C816 and not using banked memory. But here we are. But it exists and no other project I am aware of has the traction. It's probably slipping though because their own X account hasn't had activity this year and the forums are starting to look abandoned. I don't know if they all ran over to be on Discord or what.
@@andyhu9542 I suspect that the chip shortage did as much damage as anything.
In the truest spirit of 8 bit computers historically has always been a sense of tribalism. If you had a speccy, amstrad or c64 you were always trying to best your friends about your system you had. Sure things are “different” now bit in someways the tribalism is there but on a different level as it is tribalism about the hardware not the software.
The thing is what the X16 was going to be and what really is. It's what the Agon video uses to show they achieved the premises set by the 8 bit guy. Ok, it's obvious the idea for the X16 was to have a board more like the ones from the 80s. But the use of chips no longer produced is a problem. I guess somebody will always come with a solution, but if not? Besides all that they are different beasts, I like the graphics from the X16 and the flexibility of the Agon. If I could I would have both. A huge load of work and brains were put on both computers, cheers to both teams.
Cheers to both teams!
Full disclosure: I have a CX16 and do not plan on buying the Agon light.
I would have liked it better with a 65C816 and full 16 Bit mode, also. But I like the quirkiness of the design somewhat. However, this is targeted at people who want a new, different machine than the existing retro market. If you want a true to the metal retro machine, go with an old one. CX16 is impressive in that it actually exists and is a working machine. I like to tinker with it. That's what it's for.
If I ever feel the need to, I can build my own 16 Bit 65C816 machine with all the bells and whistles I want. However, I really don't want to at this time.
There is no need to spew hate in any direction. If you don't like the CX16, don't buy one, don't invest your time in it. Go with a different machine, there are plenty to choose from. Or build your own. If you like it, good for you. Also, no need to hate on other projects.
I like my X16 and only have 2 complaints.
1. I really, really, really think they should have gone with the 65C816.
2. Lack of good, organized, centrally located documentation.
I seem to recall that David's buddy from TexElec (can't remember his name right now) has said multiple times you _can_ actually run an '816 in an X16, but I'm not sure - in fact, I doubt - it's just swap-and-go. You're stuck with the X16's memory model, though: you can't just use 24-bit addresses, you still have to flip bits around in the 6522 and read/write between $A000 and $BFFF.
Good news! The newest BIOS Release 47 (Roswell) just dropped with support for a 65c816!
You do know you can plug a 65C816 into the CX16 ; there's a whole seperate branch and project on the discord. I think there are some tiny differences regarding the instruction set but they aren't relevant.
This is down to me ; I wrote the code extending the 6502 to the 65C02. Because at that time there was a significant debate as to precisely what processor should be in it, I only implemented instructions that were common to all 6502 extensions and the missing ones were only added recently (and they're not used much anyway).
@@paulscottrobson Being able to plug in a 65C816 is not the same as having access to the whole address range; I would personally have preferred to have the whole 24 bit address space available, BUT - that is my personal preference and is not throwing shade on the decisions made when designing the X16. And, if I want a system based on the 65C816 with 16 mb address space, I am capable of designing my own system around that.
"The resurgeance of retro computing didn't start until 2018 or 2019".
I'm not sure that's true. I was into retro computing well before that, and there were plenty of others too.
From an interview I saw with Bill Herd, the 2000s and 2010s are the dark ages for the retro computing community (golden ages for collectors). Demoscenes are inactive, forums are maintained by a few enthusiastic members and many old machines are binned since they are perceived as 'worthless'.
The byte attic guy is jealous about the attention the x-16 is receiving while his computers have gone under the radar. He criticized the x-16 for using microcontrollers, while pretty much all of his computers use microcontrollers to do the glue logic the x-16 uses actual logic chips for. His Agon line uses an esp32 to generate, store, and animate all the graphics, while his new cerberus board uses 2cpus, 3 cplds and a microcontroller, and still isn't capable of multiprocessing. He can criticize the x-16 all he wants, but it means nothing if he himself cannot hold up to the same criticism.
The X16 uses microcontrollers, but mostly the FPGA. It's essentially a fast Kim-1/PET with an FPGA and a couple of microcontrollers attached.
Why would he be jealous? He open-sourced his project and makes nothing on it. His computer is readily available, and has been for quite a long time now. To be honest, I would have theoretically been happier buying an X16 than an AgonLight due to my familiarity with Commodore BASIC, but the price point made me swing the other direction. Not only that, the AgonLight has a UEXT port where I can connect all kinds of cool cheap pre-existing gadgets. At $50 for the computer and mere pennies for the add-ons, the AgonLight is a no-brainer for a hobbyist like myself. Apparently one company orders the AgonLight in batches of 500, likely making it more popular than the X16.
@@drbpony One doesn't need to be financially involved to be jealous. If one's open-source project remain unnoticed while others' project sells for hundreds of thousands of dollars, the person would reasonably be jealous. I would like to know how to use UEXT hardware with the Agon, since I cannot find a tutorial for it. I also want to know the name of the company which bought a bunch of Agon Lights.
I already don’t like the word community. I don’t like group think in general. When I look at us old computer enthusiasts, I see different individuals each with their own expertise and passions and you do you. And people can argue and not agree, that’s perfectly fine.
I do quite a bit of retro computing in this channel and I found that the individuals who watch my content are always very supportive and make great suggestions. It’s the interaction with them that makes it worth still doing after 3 years - which just started as a little hiatus project.
And concerning the 8 bit guy, i find him very aloof. His content is nice, but not really my type of person. But I do admire the projects he manages to (eventually) pull off.
I think a community is less about group thinking and more about group effort. The 'you do you' mindset breaks down a bit when you realize that 'each with their own expertise' means no one can pull off an entire project. Commercial companies overcome this by glueing people together with money and contracts. That has huge drawbacks as we are all probably too aware of. So, we have community. It is, as you said, different individuals with their own expertise and passion. If those individuals don't lend their expertise towards a common target, say, an open-source computer ecosystem, then we will forever live under the rule of mega corporations.
@@andyhu9542 No what I mean with community as group think is that communities (take religion) are really a small subset of rules and values. Something as simple wide and far spread as “the retro computing community” spans 100s different subject areas that cannot nor should be governed by the same rules and values.
And let’s be frank we shall always be maintained by big business unless you live in a communist state than your governed by big government. Gimme big business any day, those I can choose not to buy 🤣
I think you see team work and team spirit as community. But those are different things. A company is a community that tries to dictate their rules, values and morals also on their people. You can have great teams working under those rules but also great teams breaking those rules/values/morals. But most follow as we saw with covid and the covid policies. Those people mindlessly following the retoric were the covid community. The anti covid people where usually individuals because all of them had their own ideas or reasons not to follow along with that group think.
Even trying to unite did not do a lot because they all had their own values, morals one of them being: “no top down control of anything.” You don’t going to get those into a community because community has some from of control and plights.
If you work the whole week the last thing you want to do is again, walk in lockstep of other people. Especially people like Dave Murray 😜
Similarly, I don't like the word "community" because it implies a level of cohesion that almost never exists. Like you said, all these different individuals have their own knowledge, experiences, and visions. Of course not everyone's going to be into the exact same projects, so it seems silly for one group to try to tear another down to promote their thing, since the people will get what they want.
@@InfernosReaper exactly! And there can by many projects supported by many people, that still doesn’t make it a community. And attacking different projects or communities is just immature. Us old GenX geezers are above that. There can be many similar projects it doesn’t matter, and eventually the consumer chooses what to use.
@@InfernosReaper Will, as long as 'someones' are into the same project, there is a 'community' of sorts, right?
I felt the need to comment... Neither the Commander X16 nor the AgonLight are "retro computers". They are a new product BASED on retro computers. They're both an offshoot of already existing products. They're better classified as "hobbyist computers" since they don't have a pre-existing legacy of hardware nor software. It's up to users to come up with both. If I want a vintage computer experience, I don't need a X16 nor Agon to do that since other existing machines fill that void better than either of these new products. What I DO want is a device that I can build something with, but without learning any new skills. I know how to work with electronics and how to program in BASIC. This IMO is the only void these products can really fill. Which one would YOU recommend? I won't tell you which one I already bought.
I think you've hit a few very key points here: The Agon hate directed at the Commander X16 was entirely profit-motive-based and built hostility where none needed to exist. It wasn't "simply a better product", it was an interesting product built by tearing down someone else's project, with full knowledge that is what they were doing. It's … honestly the reason I haven't got an Agon Light.The project is interesting, it's within my budget, and it'd be fun to play with. But if I buy one, I'm financially rewarding awful behavior.
I've met Dave Murray a few times now and I like Dave. But I'm also not buying the Commander X16. I just can't justify it with what it costs. And while the project has diverged from its original intent considerably, these things are the reality of bringing in other people with different, contradictory intents and goals, and asking them to just build something from scratch when they've never done that before. Could they have made different decisions? Sure. But that's a realization made in hindsight. Once a decision was made, changing it was difficult because people were already depending on things being a certain way. It was hard to change anything, and they did have to do it. And it all took time during which technology advanced as it always will.
I'm sure the Commander X16 team could design a much better computer from the ground up today, but the reality is that they're probably not going to. Someone else will produce another microcontroller-based system that more closely aligns with the goals Dave set out with probably. Maybe it'll even be something based on the 6502 in the end, who knows? But they built the best machine they could with what they had, and a future FPGA-based version might even cost little enough I'll get one. We'll see.
I don't know if I'll pick up an Agon Light ever. I don't want to diss anyone who did or who likes/supports the project. The computer I never had access to growing up and wish I had was the MSX II/II+. Maybe efforts to build new ones will eventually produce a version of that machine I can afford, but I suspect emulation will be it there as well. And maybe that's going to be okay in the end, unless something changes to bring the costs down. (The RPi 2040 and other newer microcontrollers are doing a lot to make hardware-level "simulators" more achievable at very low prices, though, so we'll see what happens…)
Nope. The motive for Agon may have been ego, publicity or Dutch natural directness - this is so typically Dutch they have a word for it "bespreekbaarheid" but it isn't money. It's all open source and he doesn't make or sell them. A few are done via PCBWay or the NL Computer Museum, but mostly it's Olimex.
The problem with the X16 which Bernardo Kastrup is clearer on in written articles is not the design, it's that there's no clarity in what it was for. So you get the DIP construction , which is because they wanted a kit, for example, which is the cause of much of the problems.
Not emulating bugs killed Cyrix as a CPU maker. They didn't include the undocumented bug in the Intel chips that AMD had in their licensed chips. That bug was depended on by Quake to run at full speed.
Really? Has anyone done a video on that? Would love to watch.
@truckerallikatuk I'm sceptical that the Quake player base had that buying power and this knowledge at the time. Did the Quake player base really have over $500 million in spending power?
@@AshWeststar The only way to get Cyrix CPU's was through the PC builder market because OEMs were all shipping intel.
It's not a bug, it's feature (for real this time). The Intel CPUs can run integer and floating-point instructions at the same time. This is a deliberate feature to speed up math calculations. However, Cyrix people didn't consider it very important since business software rarely use floating-point calculations and unless software specially optimize for that feature by interlacing integer and floating-point calculations, the speed increase is negligible. And nobody would spend the time optimizing code that runs fast only on one type of processor, or so they thought. The reality is: the Quake programmers did exactly that and it created the illusion that the Pentium runs faster than the Cyrix.
@@andyhu9542 that's really fascinating, thank you!
In fairness, DM *did* state that it was a *dream* computer, not necessarily what he'd produce - at that point, it was just another one of his *aspirational" videos.
I notice over time that he does often, or did, contradict himself ... I personally went off his work, videos stopped interesting me because of things like that.
Also, I got the feeling that he and his texelec buddy were hoping they'd got the next "Apple II" on their hands and tried to tool up appropriately.
Just a feeling of course - don't quote me on that.of course, but in that mind set, I'm sure a wave soldering station would work up a lot cheaper than PCB Way?
Andy - Am I missing something about your controller there; should that have been posted on the 1st of april?
Doesn't an 8 bit interface register 256 possibilities? Confused!
My controller design fully utilizes the 256 combinations of 8 digital signal. There are 4 'normal' buttons, which can be pressed down individually, that's 16 combinations. There are 4 directions, which can be pressed in 8 ways: up, down, left, right and 4 diagonal directions. However, the player cannot press opposite directions (like up AND down) due to the physical structure of the controller, that leaves some combination for me to use. I encoded the select button as 'pressing up and down at the same time' and start as 'pressing left and right at the same time'. Then between direction pad and start and select I get another 16 combinations. 16 times 16 is 256, bingo.
The Commander X16 does not deserve the hate, was not aware of this, however I'm going to get one.
It's for sale right now. Are you gonna go buy one?
The 8bitguy is high off his own fumes.
I applaud the aspiration, but lost interest early on due to things like cost and the fact I have lots of original hardware, so didn't really see what it would add for me personally.
I think it's mostly for people who don't own original hardware as prices have gone up quite a bit. But as you have said, they missed the mark by setting an even higher price.
@@andyhu9542 It's been explained many, many times that this version of the X16 is the development version and there are plans for at least two iterations of cost-reduced versions.
All you have to do is wait. But people get very upset when they have to wait unfortunately. They want to have stuff now and for cheap. Because that is how consumer electronics have worked for the last 20 years now...
I don't really understand the hate, at the end of the day it's still just a computer. You can, in fact, "not buy it."
I personally like Mr Murray, and I appreciate the significant effort they put into designing, engineering, and commercially producing a modern "retrocomputer."
Having spent the time myself to design and build a custom microprocessor from discrete TTL chips, I understand many of the challenges they faced. If you want to nitpick the use of one microcontroller and an FPGA, just remember that in 1985 the IBM AT had an 8042 micro on it's mainboard for keyboard control (The same as the SMC in the X16) and one could purchase a Xilinx XC2064 (FPGA) or any number of CPLDs. Additionally, it is worth noting that the FPGA is used primarily for video and sound generation, and that in retrospect most of the companies doing high end video and audio work had their own chip fabs or contracted other fabs to make what we might now call ASICs. An FPGA is just a modern interpretation of that design process with the advantage of being repairable in the field.
I should hope someday that the price will come down, and the X16 become more accessible, but I doubt that day will come if most of the already terrible retrocomputing community spouts hatred of it endlessly.
I've stayed out of the retrocomputing community for years (Long before the mainstream adoption of it in recent times) because of exactly this drama. It's not worth anyone's time to fight over this stuff. In the end, I think we should all agree to disagree - I don't want to run a Koneko or a Raspberry Pi, it just feels better to have some real silicon and use a bit of modern magic to stick it all together.
As a last comment, I would like to mention that the VERA FPGA core is entirely open and available, and if someone wanted, it is completely in the realm of possibility to turn it into a "real" ASIC or build it from discrete components - This is why it's on a separate board, after all.
You know, in the 1990's people were throwing this old rubbish out by dumpster full. And for good reason, actually.
I'd swoop in and scoop it all up and bring it home by the pickup truck load. I often quipped, all old computers eventually come to me to die, because I was the last one in the chain to save and love them. They all ended up in my barn.
Now I find it bizarre you folks want to clean them up and fire them up again. Even I haven't fired them up since the 1980's....
There's just not enough time in the day to hook up a C=64 or Apple ] [ any more...
If you don't have time to play with those old computers, I would love to purchase them. People fire up their old computers because they are fed up with the new ones. Modern computers are filled with ads and distractions and prompts that are not for your interest. Everything is a subscription and/or behind a paywall.
the Commander X16 is fine for what it is i am not sure what to think about it i think it shouldn't be compared to systems from the 80s or normal modern systems but i think its interesting because every 8 bit and 16 bit system is different they all have an unique look and upsides and downsides .in modern times its hard to tell the difference between a game running on a windows pc and some kind of arm based computer running linux assuming both versions are well optimised and are not too much for the hardware to handle. so having more 8 bit systems can be interesting but its not for most people since most people can't or don't want to code games and other things for it .
and systems from the 80s have a certain history behind them that makes them more interesting to collectors .games were also different back then because of the culture and economy and developers experimenting since gaming was so new they didn't know what to do and you get the packaging if you are lucky and this provides hints about what things were like back then for someone who was not around when these systems were new sine a lot of small details about the past get forgotten quickly . and the systems themselves were designed for a reason that appealed to a lot of people back then not just making a computer for the sake of it .but here on the internet you got a lot of people and a lot of them will just type what they think but wouldn't say in person or at least would be more polite . a lot of his subscribers are more casual and think this is a waste of time and money a lot of youtubers had crazy ideas that failed hard over the years so many people are sceptical now.
My only critique of the critique is the perspective on the price of the X16. Considering the cost of getting the project off the ground, sourcing parts, assembling the end product, paying people, overheads, and considering the Commodore 64 in 1983 was $300 (about $900 in 2023 according to the Wikipedia article), $475 starts to sound pretty reasonable IMO.
A big chunk of that cost is paying for the big dip solder machine that they never used in production. The price is reasonable, but it could have been cheaper if the team did not make unexperienced engineering mistakes.
@@andyhu9542 I *think* the first thing they did was buy a pile of keyboards purpose designed, a decision that I still consider mad.
If you are designing the hardware or software for these things the cost isn't money, it's time. You need a few parts, some test equipment and so on, some prototype PCBs when you get further down the line, but it's mainly time to design and implement.
The construction thing is mad. Agon is a good example of this ; the original Agon was a bit overengineered, but wasn't designed for production, so it was quite expensive (though not $500). Olimex took it on and kept the same design, replacing some parts with cheaper equivalents and produced it to sell for about £50 or so. One wonders what they would have done with the CX16. Probably halved the price.
@@paulscottrobson I have solid proof that they can halve the price. There is a project called OtterX16, it is $250, half the initial price with plenty of space for further cost-cutting.
@@andyhu9542 There was an earlier version called the "X8" which was designed by Frank van der Hoef, which I think was an FPGA design, and probably would have come out at maybe $100 ish ? It was pretty much the same thing, the hardware could be mapped onto a RAM page and it was 50% faster. The downside was less RAM, 64k only graphics memory I think.
Apparently it wasn't "authentic" (e.g. a real processor) and not sensibly makeable as a kit.
The real problem which @thebyteattic identified in the blog posts, which are much less sarcastic, is there's no clear direction about what it's for, what they want. I still think David Murray should have stuck to his original concept (except the price would be too low, it would cost $50-60 minimum, and it would always need FPGA/Microcontroller support). In the end you can design the best retrocomputer in the world, but if people can't access them cheaply and easily, you have a limited uptake.
I'm one of those folks who likes to either run on actual hardware or just run in an emulator. I like the idea of an actual 6502, eZ80, or whatever system. I'm completely OK with X16 using an FPGA for a graphics and sound 'card'. From what I gathered (and could be completely wrong), the graphics subsystem is a lot like the old VGA cards... the FPGA is basically a bunch of hardware implemented drawing routines. Even though I understand the design decisions, I don't like Agon Light's take on the graphics subsystem as much... basically because it is literally just faster computer than the host. As far as FPGA systems, I'd rather just download a software emulator. Don't get me wrong... I've worked with FPGAs in the past and like to see their efforts and doing things, it just doesn't interest me enough to own one rather than just save the money and software emulate. I think something that would be cool would be like an Agon Light2 (or Console8) with the Vera from the X16, removing the ESP32 entirely... think of the X16 with a fast eZ80 instead of the 6502 ;) I know why a lot of people like the 6502... it's in the machines they started out with and likely the first learned assembly (that would be me, too... I taught myself 6502 on my Apple ][+ back when I was in high school) but I just like other CPUs better ;) So... as I'm not interested in making my own computer at this time, I will buy, or not buy, the things that other people make.
I can’t hate it, it has an FM sound chip! No software yet that you like? Who needs that when you have the power to command the Yamaha YM2151 and it’s PSG like sidekick VERA with a REAL tracker and possibility to add MIDI!!
There are people in the retro community beyond chiptune fans... The 2151 should really be a add-on card instead of built-in default sound system. In that way the main system is cheaper, more people will buy it, economics of scale kick in, and you can then enjoy beautiful FM and MIDI music for less!
Haters gonna hate. If you know how to build it better then do it. Personally I just like watching David's journey with his hobby computer even though I would never buy one myself.
I like it, too! Before I see your comment I cannot pinpoint what exactly do I like about the project. It's the journey, the feeling of finally achieving something after years of hard work.
I like the idea of the x16 and watch it online but indeed because of the price will never buy one. I am just not that much of a hardcore retro guy i guess. I like the RP6502 of RumbledeThumps a lot better, a lot cheaper and flexible because of it’s firmware base. I know that project cannot do everything either but thats the nature of retro computers. I just want something affordable that keeps you busy.
You might want to have a look at the project I work on, neo6502, which is a variant of RP6502 ; there's only one RP2040 but it is only about $40 ready made.
It's one thing to say, "this is a ripoff for the average consumer", and it's another thing to say, "this is a ripoff for the people 'volunteering' to create software for it". From the latter perspective, Pico-8 was bad, but this is worse.
Nobody will ever make money creating software for any of these new retro systems. People who develop for them do it because it's a fun hobby and they like to share their progress and talk about it with the rest of the community. Calling somebody doing their hobby as "volunteering" is a completely incorrect take and honestly kinda insulting.
All the hate directed on David Murray and the Commander X16 all started due to Bernardo Kastrup, the designer of the Agon Lite, with an article he wrote. His groupies have simply been mimicking his behavior as they spread the hate on various retro community channels.
Retro computing was a fairly peaceful community by and large until Bernardo pissed in the well. Is very sad as Bernardo was making great retro videos himself and doing his own thing, and everything was great. And then he decided to destroy the serenity that existed in the retro computing community.
Why? Is hard to figure. You see, Bernardo has an entirely separate life where he has written numerous books on the nature of reality, consciousness - big picture, philosophical stuff. He is frequently interviewed on such subjects, sits on discussion panels, engages in debates, is a member of societies dedicated to research in that area, etc., etc. You think he'd be more mindful - than the actions he exhibited when he wrecked the good will and camaraderie that had existed in the retro computing community in general prior to his article and the mean spirited video that followed.
The point being that Bernardo Kastrup knows the ins and outs of hardware while Dave Murray does not even know what a shift register is. Just watch videos how Bernardo restores vintage computers and how Dave butchers, slaughters them!
@@christianvitroler5289
1) Are you sure David actually doesn't know what shift register is? Im pretty sure he does know what a shift register is considering he talked about the hardware bug within the shift register that the C64 was supposed to use that Commodore decided to just remove and have the CPU do the work which resulted in the drive data transfer being very slow.
2) Dave "butchers and slaughters" his retro computers in his restoration videos? You clearly haven't watched his restoration videos or you are just lying. I have yet to see any of his restoration videos get botched up. The closest I can find is where on the video about the IBM executive workstations where he simply doesn't know how to fix them considering how undocumented those PC models are, but he doesn't botched them up either.
@@one-shotrailgun8713 David citing stuff which he has read elsewhere does not mean that he understands a single word. As for butchering, have you ever seen what he did to that poor IBM? I was not the only one in sheer horror and disbelief! He is only cannibalizing some computers in favor for others. Any half way talented high school student could do that! Mr. Call Center is a joke and a disgrace to any real engineer.
@christianvitroler5289
1) "David citing stuff which he has read elsewhere does that mean that he understand a single word." Care to back that up? This guy has assembled hobby kits, sucessfully figured the problems and fixed most retro computers and restored them to their original appearance, made a few retro games and sucessfully ported them to other retro computer platforms made during the time where software incompatibility was the norm, and grew up during the period when these 8 bit computers where at their prime. We also currently live in the age of Internet where he can always search up what a shift register is if he has forgotten.
2) "As for butchering, have you seen what he did to that poor IBM?" Looking back, he definitely made some pretty major mistakes (blowing up the PSU in particular) so you are correct that he butchered that video in particular. But in "sheer horror and disbelief"? Considering your tenacity to over exaggerate, you should've describe what actually happened or you are gonna come off as not credible to others.
3) "He is only canniblizing up computers in favor for others." Okay and? Where else he gonna get the parts? These computers are really old and have been discontinued for a long time already, any spare parts left are dwindling every year. And no, you need some level of knowledge and practice to do what 8-bit guy does, no random high schooler can do the same things David does. Again, stop over exaggerating.
4) "Mr. Call Center is a joke and a disgrace to any real engineer." He was responsible, along with a few others for creating the Commander X16. While admittedly, im not exactly happy with it's current design, the fact he was able to design and produce one with others is already impressive. By your logic, Bernado is a joke and disgrace to any real engineers despite designing and producing the Agon Lite.
@@christianvitroler5289 Yes, Bernardo is super smart - an industry retired professional, very well credentialed, etc., etc.
His own retro computing videos are superb.
That isn't the issue whatsoever, tough. The issue is that Bernardo attacked another group in the retro community - totally unnecessary, and is very much a black mark in respect to Bernardo's character.
No one else (of any manner of notable prominence in YT arena) had ever done anything like that before - directly, publicly attack others in the retro community. The acidity in the community has really started directly due to Bernardo.
I dislike the x16 project. cuz david explicitly said he cant do it as a hobby project, he must make a profit on it... even then I tried to be involved early on, and argued that the early design needed an expansion port. core people shot me down saying it would be too expensive. now the design has FOUR CARDEDGE expansion ports (female, the most expensive out of male/female)....
Adding a male header to a board is negligable. Pin headers are pretty cheap. However, molex looks cooler! At least expansions will be cheap to manufacture, if any come out.
@@drbpony male header was my suggestion, or even a dip socket
Oh also, I don’t like any of the “new” 8 bit systems. To me it doesn’t have any value. I like the old stuff because I have memories off them often great nostalgic memories. A new creation doesn’t hold that for me, and For me it’s really useless to create a whole new very limited system. But I always say: you do you.
Same, I'd much rather try and make my own prototype and see what I can do with it instead of just buying an existing "new" one. I'm not really into "8-bit nostalgia" myself (since I wasn't even alive back then), but I do find the prospect of seeing what you can do with limited resources interesting! As soon as you start introducing things like FPGAs and Microcontrollers and such though, you get rid of a lot of the limitations associated with an 80s-style 8-bit microcomputer, and it just turns into someone's hobby project, and there's nothing wrong with that, but why should I get excited about someone else's hobby project, unless they were a close friend of mine or a family member of course?
Eh, I don't think I agree with you. Like yes, unfounded vitriol and hate-spewing is bad, but I haven't seen any personal attacks on the 8 bit guy or Perifractic. For Internet drama, this whole situation is remarkably tame.
The Commander X16 is a terrible product, that is being picked up by the media due to a very aggressive PR push. In such a situation, I don't see it as fundamentally unethical to do a like-for-like comparison in favor of one's own less hyped, better product. It's not even 'Genesis does what NintenDon't' levels of adversary advertising, it's just a simple down to earth comparison.
Also, I don't see how this would somehow 'damage' the retro community. If people formed militant groups hating on each other, then sure it would be potentially damaging, but we're adults now, aren't we... and providing deserved criticism on an overhyped, overpriced vanity project is totally within the bounds of normal social behavior between nerds.
The original video is tame. But there are plenty of personal attacks under an X16 video. People are openly calling the 8-bit guy a scammer. I don't think you have looked through the comment section of videos about those products. My observation is that people are forming militant group, and people are hating on each other. A small section of the community, yes, but these groups have a tendency to grow.
@@andyhu9542 I very rarely read CZcams comments. Usually check the top few. But you know what, I'm not surprised. Haters gonna hate and all that.
But your video was focusing on / calling out the Byte Attic video, not the comment trolls. So I addressed that, and said I don't think it's warranted to call them out on this. I happen to agree with them, and I find their work absolutely amazing and deserving of proper recognition and money, and the points raised in the video you criticized both civilized and valid.
The mere presence of comment trolls shouldn't make speaking out against a hyped business or project inherently unethical. I'm sure in the grand scheme of things, there is an equal amount of comment trolls who are die hard 8 bit guy stans.
@@Dani_Jz I'm not criticizing the content of the video (In fact I said I agree with it to a point of making the same arguments in a completely independent video!), but the form it is presented. You can have 100% valid points in your video and promote negative feelings among people. No human behavior is spontaneous. No 'haters' will pop out of the ground and just 'gonna hate' no matter what you do. Making a video ridiculing the 8-bit guy as some stupid scammer will make more haters.
It is incredible that today something as basic as this has to be explained:
Disagreeing does not mean being a hater.
The project makes no sense anywhere. Using a video system that has more processing power than the system's own central processor is stupid.
It's good that friend Murray wants to do his business. But using a processor as BAD as the Commodore 64? COME ON!
'Using a video system that has more processing power than the system's own central processor' is not 'stupid'. It's literally all computing devices that we use every day. Phones, laptops, desktops, game consoles, everything that's more complex than a smart thermostat has more power in its GPU than its CPU. The issue arises when a subsystem can run the main system in emulation. Disagreeing is not hating, but ridiculing someone else's project is. Finally, the X16's processor is like 8 C64 stacked on top of each other. For throwing tiles around, it's not THAT bad. In fact, no games to date have managed to exhaust the X16's CPU performance.
Your assertion that The Byte Atic's video about the X16 was motivated by his desire to make money unfortunately is not backed up by facts. The Agon Light is not a commercial venture for Bernado - it's an open source design, and he doesn't sell them himself, so doesn't stand to benefit financially.
The video in question has a slightly unfortunate tone, and seems to have been taken in a more negative way than perhaps was intended. The notion that the Agon Light better meets the original criteria that David Murray laid out for his "dream computer" than the X16 does seems to have a great deal of truth to it, and is amusing.
Your underlying message in your video that it would be much better if we all just got along is indeed a great one, and one that I fully support.
The most active Agon community on Discord subscribes to that philosophy. There are several members there that also have X16 machines, and there are frequently discussions of the relative benefits of the differing approaches taken.
The tribalism that is alluded to in this video and others does not match my personal experience.
I looked up the internet after filming the video and I expected someone would make this comment. I was surprised to find the OSHW logo on the product page, and it changed my idea about the Agon Light quite a bit. However, by that time the video is in final stages of editing and what I could do is to include the OSHW logo in the product page.
I do object one point in your comment: that the Agon Light better meets the original criteria of the X16. Ok that 'better' part might be true. However, the Agon Light misses on one big thing that David did not include in the criteria. David is a big assembly programmer, and his architecture leans heavily towards programming in assembly (he does state he want people to be able to make games in BASIC though, so the goal may be a balance between BASIC and ASM). On the other hand, the Agon Light's assembly is mostly in-line assembly for BBC BASIC, and the way graphics is done by sending VDU commands just screams 'program in BASIC'. And the VDU commands are not very suited for games: no tiles, no sprites, things have to be constructed from basic geometry.
Finally, thanks for the insight into the Discord community! It's great to hear people don't hate each other!
The Agon’s VDP is an evolving beast. It has had support for bitmaps for quite some time. There is a form of “sprite” in there too. There are plenty of other features too that lean towards what may be considered to be “tile” facilities and other more advanced graphics options. For instance, the “buffered commands API” the VDP offers allows for drawing lists and other features, as well as manipulating bitmaps
Just because the architecture doesn’t support direct framebuffer manipulation from eZ80 assembly code does not mean that the Agon’s architecture is unsuited to writing games. It just requires a different approach
I would argue that the system I'm part of the team on, the Neo6502 pretty much fits the spec *except* that it relies on a microcontroller (Pico). Originally David did not want either an FPGA or Microcontroller and this was simply impossible to do and keep the price down. Neo is pretty much the price, and spec, of his original "Dream" video.
The Agon community is weird. Most don't even understand what a UART is let alone that communicating over UART serial is the slowest way to do it and that the Agon is designed around it.
The retro community has always argued what machines are better than others (even before the machines were retro). It will continue to occur. What is bad however, is when evangelists incite this kind of behaviour for their own narcissistic or financial gain.
These projects always make me excited and nostalgic, but I don't get it. There's a reason why we moved on from 8-bit computing. Why not enjoy the devices as they were? We can also make a better fax machine .. but why?
because 40yo devices are dying and are expensive
@@joel230182 Exactly. The X16 started off as a reproduction machine but with a improved graphics chip. It did spiral out of control a little. Also, there is a reason why people are moving back to 8-bit computing. It's a trend that cannot be ignored.
@@andyhu9542 Absolutely, 8-bit computing offers a unique aesthetic/experience. The immediacy of just pressing start and play. No input lag. People can't get enough of pixel art. Newer generations are inheriting/acquiring nostalgia for retro machines(which is beautiful). The opportunity of touching the inner soul of a machine without intermediate abstractions. Also retro machines have their own distinct flavor as oppossed to modern machines that look and feel the exact same. And more. And I think that applies to other retro machines as well, such as 16 & 32 bit. Even the Mattel Aquarius is getting revived. What a time to be alive!
I honestly don't like/care about either of them I would say.
Which means I'm not buying one, easy as that. May they do what they like.
I do appreciate all classic computers. Even the wonky ones. They are such a vital part of our tapestry all of them.
I actually want to build a discrete SMD Leningrad 48k variant. Why? Why not. Will it be good? What sort of a question is that, who ever in their right mind expects a Leningrad 48k to be good?
Bernardo won me over, but it was not because his rhetoric was ideal for the task - it's because the designs he has cohere well with my own ideals. The Agon design has gotten me hooked and I'm spending plenty of time with it.
What he's said about the X16 I'm willing to write off as kayfabe hostility - it's true from the way Bernardo interacts on socials that he doesn't want to suffer fools gladly, but I don't believe his motive was to curse David Murray or anyone who's contributed to the X16 project. It's fine if everyone plays along with it and understands that they can trash talk, but not fight. Unfortunately I don't think that's the world we have, so I guess we have to instead face the fact that we are a bunch of microcomputer hooligans. 😂
I don't see Bernardo's criticism as hostility, but as confusion. The plain facts are that Bernardo has released his computer as open-source for hobbyists and makes nothing from it, while David Murray is shopping for a profitable problem for his expensive retro-based computer to solve. As someone who's run their own business, that alone hurts my brain.
I think the machine is too complicated, and it doesn't really do anything interesting other than dump a bunch of parts onto a board.
Most X-16 fanboys have no clue what they are doing.
@@christianvitroler5289 I don't think so...? Everyone I come across with an X16 are programmers that can write 6502 assembly for the X16.
Well, which machine? I think all machines I know of dump a bunch of parts onto the board AND do a ton of interesting stuff.
@@andyhu9542 The Commander x16. The machine the video is about.
@@cmr2079 Then I don't think so. The X16 is essentially a Ben Eater computer with fancy graphics and sound. Most people I came across say the Ben Eater computer is really simply laid out and not overcomplicated.
I wouldn't call something so divisive "a community."
Why does it use all through hole components and isn't sold as a kit?
Why isn't the design open hardware and the software atleast source available?
Why is the documentation sooo bad?
_Why does it use all through hole components and isn't sold as a kit?_
David has said multiple times that, while he would have liked to offer it as a kit, he didn't want the support burden of helping people assemble it (or crying to him when they bugger something up).
_Why isn't the design open hardware_
"Open hardware" is a completely meaningless statement, and I wish people would stop using it.
_and the software atleast source available?_
Because it's licensed code from Cloanto (the current copyright holders of Commodore ROMs), and those are the terms. 6502 code isn't hard to follow though, grab your fave disassembler and get going, licensing terms be damned.
_Why is the documentation sooo bad?_
This is a legitimate gripe. While I think the rest of the architecture is pretty well documented (because they're all off-the-shelf parts), the VERA docs are terrible. David's under the impression that having a Wiki for X16 documentation is some sort of magic bullet, and he couldn't be more wrong.
@@throwaway6478 Open hardware means the schematic and gerber files are available. It means anybody could make the board. Its not meaningless.
I was mostly talking about the vhdl for the fpga. Why isn't that available? Or the source for the ATTiny?
All of these are to be anti competitive. How will the x16 ever hit a "critical mass" so there is actually software available for it if it is locked down. It could never be an educational platform in it's current state. The goals of the project don't align with what it actually is.
@@throwaway6478 The kit was unworkable and he was told this repeatedly at the start. The *only* way you can do a kit is PCB + Vera, source everything else yourself. For the reasons you state.
It probably is open hardware, near enough. The Cloanto licensing limits software, but it's indicative of the issues that they ever did this. Working on it is horrendous.
Why do you display a meter and a soldering iron ?
Is it to show you are a technician ?
It's his actual desk, dude. It's not that deep
Have you seen any of this man's work? I assure you, his tools aren't just for show. Stick around, you might learn something.
@@priestessofchaos430 Was going to say the same thing.
It's just that I have these things lying around and I tried to make them look organized for the video.
100% agree! Who else is making modern retro?! We have room for all of these projects and we should be supporting ALL OF THEM. What's so wrong with your life (speaking to the haters) that you have hate for any of these projects?
I think the haters' argument is that those machines are sold way too expensively to capitalize on the hype, which is a civilized way of saying 'borderline scam'. There are many things wrong with this idea, but ignoring or trivializing the haters will only make them stronger.
Foenix Retro Systems kind of killing the scene right now. No FPGAs at all. Pure old school.
Edit: To be sure I want to support 8-bit Guy's project and make a legit arcade cabinet/game with his board. Encourage more of this!
They all have FPGAs in.
Foenix computers make heavy use of FPGA for both sound and graphics. The sound can technically be original SIDs, but those chips are super expensive these days. And the graphics chip is pure FPGA design.
the x16 is a new ewaste piece of shit, any pi can run circleas around that shit
But guess what? You cannot write a piece of code for the Pi directly to the hardware without signing an NDA with Broadcom. The X16 runs circles around the Pi in terms of hardware openness.
pi is an ewaste piece of shit, any 64 core Intel Xeon server can run circles around that shit