I'm a Tool and Diemaker and been building engines for 40 years and just this week I rebuilt my 360 E58 in my 79 300 and I bought the cam kit with everything in it from a very reputable cam company witch I don't want to say but the crown on the lifters are not ground right some of the lifters had good crown and some were ground with an offset crown . So we need to stop blaming the oil companies for the whole process of breaking in .like I said I been doing this for along time and never had use all this break in oils . I checked my lifters on my surface plate with different indicators and they all came out the same bad . It all comes down to bad machining and poor quality control . So check them before you install them . And the lifters do not have a chamfer like you say . Not only that they also varied in height too .010 like I said this is a very renowned cam company .
YES! Absolutely CORRECT. Everybody knows about and corrected for the oil a long time ago. ALL the new lifters are borderline garbage. Even the 'Johnson".
Chinese lifters suck, mexican work. Mexicans are made by EATON also a good company. Down under in Australia they have Crow cams lifters and cams that are very good too. (Not related to Crower USA) In UK Kent cams Ltd. is top notch.
My delta cam in my Harley shovel head was reground 25 years ago after a roller on a lifter failed it's got about 80 thousand miles on it and still working fine, also put a delt cam and lifters in my 396 68 Camaro 580 lift 300 duration back in 1997 definitely throws me back in the seat when I open up the 850 double pumper, glad I got them when I did, delta cam still has good quality control keep the videos coming
Years ago machinist I used to go to told me to used 30wt non detergent oil break in a new engine, said it gets into the metal pours, and keep corrosion from forming on engine parts moving forward. He said nothing about camshafts lifters etc, that was back in the early 90’s. If your breaking in a high lift cam that requires a higher rate valve spring, it’s recommended you use a lighter spring then you can swap springs out after the cam is broken in. I personally use Lucas Oil zinc phosphate additive with 10w40 Delo in my SBF. The leading edge of those aftermarket lifters China via Mexico are probably fine if you knock the leading edge down with a fine stone, and verify the internal parts are working as they should. I’ve heard that some lifters were being sold as “new” when they were actually “remanufactured”, consequently the internal hydraulic pistons are surfaced, and the inner bores are honed, you can probably see where I’m going with that.
That Delo oil isn't really that beneficial in your engine. There's a difference in oil blended with ZDDP vs. pouring it in afterwards. The reason for breakin to use Non-detergent oil is that the antiwear component of oil (largely ZDDP) and the detergent component (largely Calcium and Boron) compete for the same space within the oil and tend to fight for space which cancels or limits some of the antiwear package effectiveness. There is a 'new' type of oil being used that was experimented with which removes the Zinc package and hypercharges the calcium components and supposedly has better success preventing wear than the old Zinc package. But that's another topic. That GTX Classic is OK but I've only seen it in 20w-50 which is kinda heavy. VR1 has more selections. BTW, there are NO 'remanufactured' lifters being sold. Another 'internet lore' story started by some nutjob. Doesn't even make sense when you think about it.
The reason you are using a lighter spring is... the break in oil. Its purpose? Accellerate wear through reduced protection. There's a margin there in both how low to go plus for how long - and that takes an engineer to figure out [if it needs to be done at all]. The wider the differential, the shorter the allowable time is. Whats right: 80% of optimum protection for 2 1/2 minutes for parts to burnish in? I don't know... Materials, surface area/pressures, initial ra values, temps etc all matter in oil selection.
@@flinch622 Just watch a video the other day, shop in Texas that was facing new lifters right out of the box, they are not square to the face, they touch off the face on the facing tool of the new ones, and you can visually see that the face is ground perpendicular to the sides of the lifter. That said there is suppose to be more taper to the outside edge of the lifter, with slight radius to the lifter face, the edge of lifter should never really run on the cam lobe, and should track just off that edge slightly.
Ever thought about missing oil thrower paddles on aftermarket conrods? Original GM Small Block rods have so called Splashers that throw oil on the cam lobes, most aftermarket rods dont have these oil throwers
It's worth noting people use lift to get at cylinder head [intake port] potential. Remember: classic 60's muscle cars got their flow by adding duration to a limited lift - a 350 got away with 165cc runners doing this for example. Pick cylinder heads to suit your cam & vice versa. Me? If I'm going past 0.540" lift, I'm looking at rollers given whats been done to formulations of SM/SN/SP spec oils. Have fun, and do the math before setting in on a build.
I’m curious about lifter to cam offset and what is recommended? I recently took a peek in my 409 “W” motor, everything looks fine and is the 425hp version stock with solid lifters. I installed a cam button just to keep cam from wandering around. I know there is an offset to rotate the lifters, better to make a correction now before sealing her back up. Both cam gear and crank gear is “straight up” and a double roller chain. The offset looks to be 1/8” (cam to lifter) and no axial play. Thanks
Yes, definitely oil. There's been a few isolated reports of flat tappet grinds not having any love taper like they got cut like a roller love preventing the lifter rotation. I'll keep an eye on the finish work on the lifters. I'm always recommending additive....Lucas, Slick50, etc. Great investigation....lifter rotation has been an issue for sure. Thanks for the video. We need to find some that aren't rotating and then chamfor to see if that is for sure part of the problem.
Many GM Engines were made in Mexico so no issue with that. Johnson and Delphi lifters, Nason, no issues. Excellent service you offer for fixing those lifters. Well done.
I bought a set of Crower cam saver lifters for a 351W last week to start accumulating parts for a new engine for my truck eventually and man those things looked like they were ground with an angle grinder. First one out of the box, huge deep circular scratch in the lifter face. The rest were flat or concave, made me wonder if those were used lifter bodies that were reground or something and I sent them back. Those would have wiped out a cam immediately. Found myself a set of NOS genuine Ford lifters that are older than I am for the same price, looked good in the pictures hope they arrive and turn out alright. Still need a cam though not sure what to pick.
The GM lifters are what people are saying to use now. They are $185 a set and have hardened bases beyond what was considered usable in the past. They are sold by many of the sources also selling cams online. I am building an engine that rounded out lobes that was Rebuilt by the previous owner. I am terrified to use a flat tappet and have to do this process over again to say the least. But a roller is $1200 now for the retro version. Still cheaper than redoing this engine again I guess. Sucks we are in this position as enthusiasts..
Another area to check is lifter bores. And a lot of old engines with worn out lifter bores are being rebuilt. If that lifter rocks too much in the lifter bore, it will have a tendency to wipe out the lobe.
I just had a Pontiac 400 built at a reputable machine shop. Did everything to avoid this. Break in oil the whole 9 yards. The camshaft lasted 5 minutes. I am beyond pissed.
Hey!!! Omg! I'm so excited to see a company in my home town!! I will absolutely be coming in to support yalls business! Also, Any chances you could point me in the direction of a quality machine shop also in Tacompton that wont tear my bank accounta new asshole?? I would be forever grateful 🙏
Cats: been in everything since 1974. We didn't really have a problem until two things happened. First: turbos. Seals go and the cat starts eating oil - cats tend to choke on that. Second is cafe2 standards: mileage numbers picked out of thin air by congress. Any engineers there? I don't think so. And... a paper chase ensued in the bureaucracy to protect bad law: mileage claims charted by use of 0w-20 or thinner oils [that customers barely see half of]. Alot of these new designs become oil burners in the blink of an eye - don't ever go more than 5,000 miles between changes no matter what claims are made. So: to protect bad regs, the government demanded oems certify their cats for 100,000 miles - way past warranty in many cases. Result? Oil reformulated to lower zinc [800ppm or less], plus... you now have a cat replacement cost baked in to a warranty on any new vehicles whether we like it or not. Is that "going green"? Idiocracy is here, now. Oil used to cater to car manufacturers, but now its catering to political agendas - kind of reminds me of letting potatoes rot in the fields under Stalin.
I ONLY buy ISKY cams they are still family owned and stand behind their premium products, Sig Erson and Crower is also great. Is Racer Brown still in business? Friend of mine has a quite good and reliable flat tappet cam made by Elgin.
I’ve seen excessive taper on cams and lifters. Where it should be around .150 thousandths it’s past .200 and even worse! That’s definitely ate a few cams along with bad oil and lifter bleed down. No one checks this and we blame it mostly on the oil and there’s more to it if you check everything.
If you work for Delta Cams, I don't recognize you. Been going for many years. I have about 15 cam cores in your shop for the next time I order a cam. The last cam I ordered was a 1968 428 cj .
We just had that issue Took out our 350 SBC on the warm up Took it apart after the lifter collapsed and cam lobe gone Great video Thanks for the information
I'm a Tool and Diemaker and been building engines for 40 years and just this week I rebuilt my 360 E58 in my 79 300 and I bought the cam kit with everything in it from a very reputable cam company witch I don't want to say but the crown on the lifters are not ground right some of the lifters had good crown and some were ground with an offset crown . So we need to stop blaming the oil companies for the whole process of breaking in .like I said I been doing this for along time and never had use all this break in oils . I checked my lifters on my surface plate with different indicators and they all came out the same bad . It all comes down to bad machining and poor quality control . So check them before you install them . And the lifters do not have a chamfer like you say . Not only that they also varied in height too .010 like I said this is a very renowned cam company .
Its not an oil issue. Its a manufacturing issue.
YES! Absolutely CORRECT. Everybody knows about and corrected for the oil a long time ago. ALL the new lifters are borderline garbage. Even the 'Johnson".
Chinese lifters suck, mexican work. Mexicans are made by EATON also a good company. Down under in Australia they have Crow cams lifters and cams that are very good too. (Not related to Crower USA) In UK Kent cams Ltd. is top notch.
You guys are great. Thanks. Every cam I get from you has been good.
Alot of machinist are finding that the current crop of flat tappet lifters being sold have an incorrect or inconsistent radius ground into the foot...
My delta cam in my Harley shovel head was reground 25 years ago after a roller on a lifter failed it's got about 80 thousand miles on it and still working fine, also put a delt cam and lifters in my 396 68 Camaro 580 lift 300 duration back in 1997 definitely throws me back in the seat when I open up the 850 double pumper, glad I got them when I did, delta cam still has good quality control keep the videos coming
Excellent video.
Thank you.
Take care, Ed.
T/Y for being proactive about this subject and have provided some helpful answers to the problem.
Years ago machinist I used to go to told me to used 30wt non detergent oil break in a new engine, said it gets into the metal pours, and keep corrosion from forming on engine parts moving forward. He said nothing about camshafts lifters etc, that was back in the early 90’s. If your breaking in a high lift cam that requires a higher rate valve spring, it’s recommended you use a lighter spring then you can swap springs out after the cam is broken in. I personally use Lucas Oil zinc phosphate additive with 10w40 Delo in my SBF. The leading edge of those aftermarket lifters China via Mexico are probably fine if you knock the leading edge down with a fine stone, and verify the internal parts are working as they should. I’ve heard that some lifters were being sold as “new” when they were actually “remanufactured”, consequently the internal hydraulic pistons are surfaced, and the inner bores are honed, you can probably see where I’m going with that.
That Delo oil isn't really that beneficial in your engine. There's a difference in oil blended with ZDDP vs. pouring it in afterwards. The reason for breakin to use Non-detergent oil is that the antiwear component of oil (largely ZDDP) and the detergent component (largely Calcium and Boron) compete for the same space within the oil and tend to fight for space which cancels or limits some of the antiwear package effectiveness. There is a 'new' type of oil being used that was experimented with which removes the Zinc package and hypercharges the calcium components and supposedly has better success preventing wear than the old Zinc package. But that's another topic. That GTX Classic is OK but I've only seen it in 20w-50 which is kinda heavy. VR1 has more selections.
BTW, there are NO 'remanufactured' lifters being sold. Another 'internet lore' story started by some nutjob. Doesn't even make sense when you think about it.
The reason you are using a lighter spring is... the break in oil. Its purpose? Accellerate wear through reduced protection. There's a margin there in both how low to go plus for how long - and that takes an engineer to figure out [if it needs to be done at all]. The wider the differential, the shorter the allowable time is. Whats right: 80% of optimum protection for 2 1/2 minutes for parts to burnish in? I don't know... Materials, surface area/pressures, initial ra values, temps etc all matter in oil selection.
@@flinch622 Just watch a video the other day, shop in Texas that was facing new lifters right out of the box, they are not square to the face, they touch off the face on the facing tool of the new ones, and you can visually see that the face is ground perpendicular to the sides of the lifter. That said there is suppose to be more taper to the outside edge of the lifter, with slight radius to the lifter face, the edge of lifter should never really run on the cam lobe, and should track just off that edge slightly.
Ever thought about missing oil thrower paddles on aftermarket conrods? Original GM Small Block rods have so called Splashers that throw oil on the cam lobes, most aftermarket rods dont have these oil throwers
as i am on the fence for flat tap or roller it would be nice to see the difference from pre to finished process that you do
It's worth noting people use lift to get at cylinder head [intake port] potential. Remember: classic 60's muscle cars got their flow by adding duration to a limited lift - a 350 got away with 165cc runners doing this for example. Pick cylinder heads to suit your cam & vice versa. Me? If I'm going past 0.540" lift, I'm looking at rollers given whats been done to formulations of SM/SN/SP spec oils.
Have fun, and do the math before setting in on a build.
I’m curious about lifter to cam offset and what is recommended? I recently took a peek in my 409 “W” motor, everything looks fine and is the 425hp version stock with solid lifters. I installed a cam button just to keep cam from wandering around. I know there is an offset to rotate the lifters, better to make a correction now before sealing her back up. Both cam gear and crank gear is “straight up” and a double roller chain. The offset looks to be 1/8” (cam to lifter) and no axial play. Thanks
Thank you for your insight on this issue. I just recently found you guys and will be giving you a call or email.
Yes, definitely oil. There's been a few isolated reports of flat tappet grinds not having any love taper like they got cut like a roller love preventing the lifter rotation. I'll keep an eye on the finish work on the lifters. I'm always recommending additive....Lucas, Slick50, etc. Great investigation....lifter rotation has been an issue for sure. Thanks for the video. We need to find some that aren't rotating and then chamfor to see if that is for sure part of the problem.
Many GM Engines were made in Mexico so no issue with that. Johnson and Delphi lifters, Nason, no issues. Excellent service you offer for fixing those lifters. Well done.
I bought a set of Crower cam saver lifters for a 351W last week to start accumulating parts for a new engine for my truck eventually and man those things looked like they were ground with an angle grinder. First one out of the box, huge deep circular scratch in the lifter face. The rest were flat or concave, made me wonder if those were used lifter bodies that were reground or something and I sent them back. Those would have wiped out a cam immediately. Found myself a set of NOS genuine Ford lifters that are older than I am for the same price, looked good in the pictures hope they arrive and turn out alright. Still need a cam though not sure what to pick.
The GM lifters are what people are saying to use now. They are $185 a set and have hardened bases beyond what was considered usable in the past. They are sold by many of the sources also selling cams online.
I am building an engine that rounded out lobes that was Rebuilt by the previous owner. I am terrified to use a flat tappet and have to do this process over again to say the least. But a roller is $1200 now for the retro version. Still cheaper than redoing this engine again I guess. Sucks we are in this position as enthusiasts..
We grind 15-50 orders a day. Most are flat tappet, our notched lifters are making it almost non problematic.... last year we lost maybe 15 total
Do you redress used lifters?
How do you check the radius/crown on the lifter? And what is the acceptable radius tolerance?
.002" over 1" radius is oem our machine put a little more than oem.... .0025 - .003 "
@@DELTACAM8005625500 thanks for the information
Another area to check is lifter bores. And a lot of old engines with worn out lifter bores are being rebuilt. If that lifter rocks too much in the lifter bore, it will have a tendency to wipe out the lobe.
I just had a Pontiac 400 built at a reputable machine shop. Did everything to avoid this. Break in oil the whole 9 yards. The camshaft lasted 5 minutes. I am beyond pissed.
Hey!!! Omg! I'm so excited to see a company in my home town!! I will absolutely be coming in to support yalls business! Also, Any chances you could point me in the direction of a quality machine shop also in Tacompton that wont tear my bank accounta new asshole?? I would be forever grateful 🙏
Cats: been in everything since 1974. We didn't really have a problem until two things happened. First: turbos. Seals go and the cat starts eating oil - cats tend to choke on that. Second is cafe2 standards: mileage numbers picked out of thin air by congress. Any engineers there? I don't think so. And... a paper chase ensued in the bureaucracy to protect bad law: mileage claims charted by use of 0w-20 or thinner oils [that customers barely see half of]. Alot of these new designs become oil burners in the blink of an eye - don't ever go more than 5,000 miles between changes no matter what claims are made. So: to protect bad regs, the government demanded oems certify their cats for 100,000 miles - way past warranty in many cases. Result? Oil reformulated to lower zinc [800ppm or less], plus... you now have a cat replacement cost baked in to a warranty on any new vehicles whether we like it or not. Is that "going green"? Idiocracy is here, now.
Oil used to cater to car manufacturers, but now its catering to political agendas - kind of reminds me of letting potatoes rot in the fields under Stalin.
I ONLY buy ISKY cams they are still family owned and stand behind their premium products, Sig Erson and Crower is also great. Is Racer Brown still in business? Friend of mine has a quite good and reliable flat tappet cam made by Elgin.
I grind the Hemi cams for Racer Browns
@@DELTACAM8005625500 ohh great yeah, RB used to be the name in HQ Race cams back in the good old days
I’ve seen excessive taper on cams and lifters. Where it should be around .150 thousandths it’s past .200 and even worse! That’s definitely ate a few cams along with bad oil and lifter bleed down. No one checks this and we blame it mostly on the oil and there’s more to it if you check everything.
i hope you mean .0015-.002 .
I checked the Johnson website, they only build new solid and hydrulic roller lifers now, not standard.
If you work for Delta Cams, I don't recognize you. Been going for many years.
I have about 15 cam cores in your shop for the next time I order a cam.
The last cam I ordered was a 1968 428 cj .
Don't work there... I own it and usually on shop floor or in my office. Ken usually works the sales counter. I've been here for 45 yrs :)
That makes perfect sense. I will break my rebuilt engine with the zinc break in oil and the stock valve springs then change over to the new ones.
And check into the lifters edge.
160? i just paid 700 Australian dollars for a set of Hylift Johnson flat tappet solid lifters.
Not surprised!! We get ripped off hardcore down under. 🤬🤬🤬
I hate when they say how to check a bad lifter but they go on and on about bullshit
Oyal purple
We just had that issue
Took out our 350 SBC on the warm up
Took it apart after the lifter collapsed and cam lobe gone
Great video
Thanks for the information