I miss the days of general low buck hot rodding where you could buy a 50 dollar cam and a cheap set of 25 dollar lifters and it broke in and worked fine.
PEOPLE 8000 miles away who work for 1.30 a day dont give a damn about quality control,they work off of a go,no go ,gauge,fit form function means nothing to them,like give a monkey a banana and he does this all day long,no thanks i buy my power equipment used and old,the old metal is the metal,back when parkerizing and induction flame hardening and other terms that have gone into past,i kept all of my old cams and matching lifters so i don't experience this happy horse caca,i knew the future was going to be plastic,just like the cars,plastic and electronics hit a bump,you are walking,again no thanks being old fashioned has its perks
Worked as a high performance automotive machinist since I could hold a wrench. We checked and machined everything to the 9th degree, every time, all the time. Stuff was crap back then as well. Even from the big names. There was a sweet spot where manufacturing was pretty damn good overall and has been slipping again ever since. I trust nothing out of the box. Thanks for making a straight forward video about this topic that has had way too much drama and speculation surrounding it. Guys were wiping out cams all the time back in the day, so it’s not some new thing. It was almost universally blamed on improper break in and more than half the damn time it was and still is. But I’ve always found most parts to be lacking straight out of the box.
That sort of attitude to building anything used to be the norm also. I believe this checking and complaining to manufacturers led to that golden age when things just worked out of the box. Nowadays that attitude is gone (almost) and people expect to just bolt parts on and make huge numbers on the dyno. And of course, without that constant checking from consumers, manufacturer standards have slipped back again.
Great video Daniel. You and people like us are exposing these parts suppliers for what they are. Lifters and cams were made in this country for years and minimal problems. Had more problems in the last 2 to 3 years. Thanks for sharing and the great video. Take care, Ed.
Old guys like me learned this way back in the day. Thank you for explaining so everyone can understand that there is problems causing failures. Lifter bores are so bad in the old 60-70’s blocks glad you pointed it out. Maybe people who want engines built NOW will understand WHY it costs good $$$$ for a well built engine. This includes having a block degreased, bored and honed. Cam tunnels and lifter bores must be checked for roller camshafts too!
It seems as the old engineers of various companies get retired off ,certain details are lost in the rush to modernise the product ,thanks for the clear & concise explanation .
I've seen the "brain drain" in the aerospace industry and in the Washington State Department of Transportation. The older engineers have years & years of knowledge and experience and are encouraged/forced to retire early, which results in cumulative loss of knowledge in an industry or company, whichever the case may be. The US colleges can't re-supply the businesses fast enough with qualified professional engineers, and it will take many years for these young workers to gain the experience to apply their knowledge in a value-added way.
@powellmachineinc3179 getting off subject, kinda, but could you explain why you have to have more lift on a roller (GM in my case) than a flat tappet so I can get the same performance from my FIRST roller decision? Would make an excellent video. I may just order my cam from you so I may just call the shop. Thanks Daniel! Your awesome, I'm OLD! 🙂
@martywilsonwilsonenginesho7940 it's not a "have to" but most roller designs are going to take advantage of more lobe lift where as many ft are a lower lift to limit lobe velocity
@powellmachineinc3179 Thank you Daniel! So if I run a .500 lift flat tappet, what is an equivalent roller? .520-.540 or more than that? Around 284-290* duration on the flat tappet cams I used to run. Sorry that I am trying to pick your brain, I need to pick a cam.
FANTASTIC SLEUTHING! Love this great info, there is no shortage of videos with opinions and misinformation but this and your cam videos are the first to scientifically test the parts and identify the real problems. Excellent presentation and content, you're making SC proud... I'm originally from Charleston.
You continue to highlight just how complex an engine can be. Assuming the OE's got it right the first time and the engine ran out to 100-200K miles and now you want to rebuild it and buy a bunch of parts from different aftermarket people and put it together, the potential for problems are numerous. Thank you.
As an elderly Rodder I'm impressed with gains in cyl head flow, swirl promotion that change old lackluster engine designs into powerhouses . Same applies to Cam and Pistons. Ya , costs alot , but it always did for those who had hard running cars. Plus the boatloads of labor to figure combo's out. Nice to have great power delivered in a box.
I bought complete Comp Cams n lifter kits with the reduced ratio roller rockers, lifters, timing gears n chains for my small block n big block Chevy Motors n both motors have been running for awhile now. Close to 20k miles on the small block n about 10k on the big block. They both were mild cams with moderate lifts 456 n 460. I have not had any issues whatsoever. One thing though. I had done all this before covid hit the fan. After COVID, I noticed that many engine builders were complaining about bad cams n lifters being purchased from reputable companies. Long story short, our US companies were now outsourcing the manufacturing to offshore companies, yep, Chinese companies n others. Seems during/after covid many of our US companies closed and/or laid off employees due to the Pandemic. I believe that because of that, our companies lost a quality workforce that "knew" what they were doing when it came to manufacturing these components for our market. Seems everything went to shit after covid, and frankly the new millennial workforce don't know Jack about quality or work ethics or anything about the American Pride us old-timers knew n respected. Seems now we're just throwing the dice on what we get. It's a sad state of affairs n we are the ones paying for it!
Wow ! This is what I call real “meat and potatoes” information ! The way you presented this info was on point ! This makes me consider wanting to send y’all my “very big name” lifters to y’all for inspection / remachining. I suspect hardness testing as well as measuring lifter taper could potentially save me a few hundred dollars ! I will also have my block’s lifter bores machined for correct location and correct plane or axis of operation. Not checking these things has got us to where we are now, I realize. Thank you so much for this video !
@@powellmachineinc3179 how much would you charge to check my new Uninstalled camshaft and lifters for proper taper and correcting any issues? V8 I can bring them to you today or tomorrow if possible and/or feasible
Thank You for the comprehensive explanation . This is one of the unfortunate results of poor quality control and outsourcing components . The little things can ruin an entire engine .
It’s not really a taper it’s more of a “dome”. It’s supposed to be a flat tapped lifter lol. Made thousands for racing and everyone wanted a domed lifter but we would polish them to remove grinding marks! Corners should have a controlled radius and very small. This guy knows what he’s talking about.
Iv put 3 flat tappet cam and lifter sets in my truck. iv ran zdp ( zinc ) in all of them. my dad told me he had watched me whip out more cams in 3 months, then in 30 years, repairing cars. I'm 100% sure iv installed them correctly, and I'm 100% going to a roller cam
I want to upgrade the cam in my sbc but to be safe I would have to go retro fit hydraulic roller and I can't afford the extra expense. I miss the good old days!
Use a cam button and during break in use weak/soft springs if you use a flat tappet. Make sure lifter turns in the bore. After running the engine, with magnet on the drain plug, pull plug check what's on the magnet. It's normal to have some dust, oily particles on the magnet. Then switch out with the springs.
I just replaced these in my 4.0 jeep. Mine weren't bad but it had over 200k on it and the head was off. I know I know don't go on about new lifters and old cam. That wasn't the problem. I put a new set of sealed power ones in. After reassembly and during breakin I had a slight tick at first. I thought oh it's just a little lazy. When I put them in I used cam lube and they floated easily on the bore. After warm up and buttoning stuff up to drive it I got 20 miles on it and had a hard miss. Actually a slight miss and a hard miss. Went through the usual diagnostic and replaced suspect and questionable old parts. Took rocker cover back off and dod slo mo. Two rockers had less movement. Several of the lifters we're trashed. Totally trashed. Had to take what was a head gasket job down to cam and oil pan etc. Remove front of jeep for access etc. The lifters wiped out my cam. Inspecting them the new ones I put on were not machined on the top. No crown. Like none at all. Some showed the edges were higher than. The center just like yours. Turned a simple head gasket and because I was there valve job into just about an engine rebuild.
That is terrible. I think these big companies don't have car guys working in the factory. They just go to work like the usual office drones, and have no passion for doing this stuff. It destroys their motivation to really care. Several years ago, people were quick to blame everything on oil and break in procedure for new cams, and nothing else. It especially applied to big cams. I did wonder how the most expensive Corvettes of the 1960s managed to last longer than these replacement high horsepower cams. Now I see the major difference is that those Corvettes were machined correctly.
Great bit of information. Makes you wonder if whomever is doing to the lifter manufacturing if their tooling is worn out. Would make sense if all the tappets are sourced from the same overseas place.
excellent video! I have found repeatedly that the bullseye wear pattern that often develops on today's flat tappet lifters, does not pattern out to the edge of the lifter. I blamed the taper problem on the cam instead of the lifter when I discovered camshaft's I installed reguarly for customers no longer had as much taper as the previous ones from past experience. Even used camshaft's that lived a long time had .001 more taper than many of the newer grinds. I Never considered grinding the lifter to match the camshaft but I have had camshaft's custom ground with more taper on the ramp to force the lifter to spin and closer match the taper of the lifters I purchase in bulk. This drastically improved failure rates for me. Nothing can fix an out of square lifter face except re-facing it obviously so now I am headed out to the shop to check out some new lifters. Quality of the materials used is a big enough problem as it is.
It can't pattern out to the edge, if it did that would mean the lobe design requires a larger diameter than is available and it would immediately destroy the cam.
Thank you for taking the time in putting this together. Between wore out bores, reman lifters, and low grade oils these days, a builder needs to be very careful about geometry before going one step further. The lobe taper versus lifter crown are complimentary [if correct]: there is a proximal high load tangent area that ought to begin roughly 0.050" from the edge of the lifter. Too far out risks damage, too close to center and the lifter may not spin. I was pawing through API spec history, and recent developments still certify an oil with an unreal wear limit: IVA tests [astm d6891] under sn and sm specs allow an astonishing 90 microns as a fail point: that's 0.0035". A flat tappet cam is dead with half that. And, as best I can tell, the sp oils abandoned the test completely and only do an IVB "lifter" test which really means bucket. I suppose anyone grinding flat tappets these days is in need of third party oil tests for survival.. which is a good body of work: oil companies change additives/properties with or without notice, yet still fall in the same spec categories and the consumer cannot tell what changed if relying on a label.
With the consistant lifter debacle, it would be nice if those people that think about continueing using flat tappet camshafts, would just jump ship and just retro fit their older engines to a roller setup. Figure all the time and money wasted replacing both cam and lifters when it gets wiped out during break in or just afterwards. Then theres dealing with the metal shavings that get circulated through out the engine, it would be best to bite the bullet and just pay more for quality built roller cam and lifter setup, just instal once and no break in required.
That's just what the cam companies want you to do. $125 for a flat tappet cam and lifter kit or $1000+ to retrofit an old engine to a roller camshaft. It's all a scam.
Back in a days machinists where proud of what they did and didn´t let shit out of shop as every one else good in their jobs. We did good, some of us great, got customers and get orders no need advertising. Now that pride got old and retired, in came the profits and mass production. Cnc machines kicked out our old lathes and grinders that we used and measured what we did cos we had to match tolerances of our machines. In cnc they trust now, no needs of verniers calipers or dykem. My old boss went easy for money, ditched workers and bought machine center. It coud produce almost week production in one night comparing to us workers. Welders became packers for those average quality products.... That was it, now you cannot find a shop or parts you coud use for a proper built when it comes to machine industry. I miss old times when we had time to do things well and got payed for it.
Excellent explanations and demos, thoroughly enjoy them. Greatly appreciate you sharing your expertise, very interesting results. Have you always "fixed" lifters/cams or only in the last 5-10 years?
Just when profiles can make a cam run much better then a real need for roller design ,suddenly although manufacturers were saying not to use roller cams unless all out race cars Now this seems to be everywhere . i find very interesting considering all the price gouging that has been going on int the last 2 years
It effectively comes down to knowing what you are doing and effective quality control then! Sadly two things that are often missing in this day and age.
You know whats really weird? That its taken several other people realizing theres a problem and looking into it and finding these surface grinding issues. But the mega million dollar cam companies dont give 2 sh*ts about it to look into it themselves. And they probably wont fix it either.
2:37 Question: As you move the dial indicator around, the deflection is not linear as you move toward the edge, confirming that the lifter crown is a curve (possibly spherical), not a cone. So the "taper" you mention at 1:20 is not a fixed value but a curve, and some part of that curve will be tangent to and rub on the tapered cam lobe. As I understand things, the lifter is supposed to wear from there to match the cam lobe. Seems like maybe different lifters have different radius crowns and smaller radius crowns result in more point contact which would wipe out the cam & lifter. Any logic in my reasoning?
All I can say is wow...just wow. Its very irritating to me that even at the least.. whoever is the operator has no quality control at all as far as what is coming off the machine. hate to see the wheel finish on the stone they use...and its on many machines I assume. Also the companies always blame the customer for wrongdoing of a cam going flat. Its been going on for many years and only getting worse. until the company suffers bottom line hardship and this being why then nothing will change either...very frustrating
Great video! As I am about to dyno a 454 with the same exact lifters you got me kinda scared!! As a side note- I REALLY think there needs to be way more oversize lifter availability. +.002, +.003 would be nice. Almost impossible to have a set of roller lifters, especially, not be too loose in a stock block.
Check your other clearances. Total height, inside diameter, and plunger. They are all bunged up for tolerance. You will find the same issues with retro fit rollers.
I’m really digging your videos. I’ve been supercharged on your cam and lifter videos. I’m doing a junkyard build off with other CZcamsrs on a 440 I have. Man is it wore out. BTW, this thing has been laying in a barn over 30 yrs. Pulled the lifters, they’re concave instead of convex. Cam lobes have no taper. They’re wore flat. I assume the lobes wore flat and the lifters just started rotating less and less. It’s incredible this cam and lifters didn’t eat each other. Any thoughts? Better metallurgy? Better oil back in the day?
I just bought a set of the Crower cam saver lifters for a SBF. First one out of the box, that lifter has a big deep circular scratch in the face and all the rest of them look like they were ground being spun by a drill and ground with an angle grinder. I sent them back. Most were totally flat and some concave.
I'm retired now (44 years certified automotive machinist and Class A mechanic) but have never heard of a tapered lobe on a camshaft ever or any other journal surface like that is always flat and parallel or it fails. The flat tappets always had a 101" radius and spin in the lifter bore 3-8 rpm if memory serves me. PS: check the dressing diamond for your large stone it can cause the tapper. I have had that problem way back when.
What I would love to see you do. Setup of a fixture where you can show a cam lobe with a 2.5 degree angle and a lifter with a 1.5 degree angle and they mesh together on the same angle. You should be able to put a light behind the cam lobe and lifter to see any film any clearance or deviation between the two parts. That would be very interesting to see that. Also, if the lifter bore is too large, I would like to see how that effects the angles of the cam and lifter. It would be great if both the cam lobe and lifter were blued so we might see the pattern of the cam and while the lifter is being rotated. I realize this would cause you a lot of work to do this. JR
Yeah, we stopped doing flat cams 2 years ago, our lifter work is helping definitely, but there is a material compatability issue somewhere, we are having the composition tested on lifters and cams, there's more going on than meets the eye.
Wow...the more info you present...the crazier it gets! I looked at a bunch of high mileage/hard use lifters from a very mild street cam 305 and 350 engines. They were no problems, and I can see the contact area like you mentioned. I swapped the cam in a gm performance crate 350 with an Edelbrock performer cam an springs...no problem. I am going to use that factory cam and lifters in a mild 305, they look fine to my eye. I also have a couple of Comp Cams, unused 10+ years old in the box and three sets of Melling lifers, 10+ year or more older. They look as good as the GM lifters. Is getting these checked before use a viable option at Powell? I am going to roll the dice on the 305, but I would like to dodge a bullet before I use the 10+ older unused stuff. What do you think? Thanks for reading this.
At an independent shop in the early 80's, we were working on 10-12 yr old vehicles or less. While the 305 cu in was a popular engine all smogged up, I had GM's lined up with bad cams & destroyed lifter, it made me wonder. I was too busy to investigate but the cams and lifters are heat treaded by case hardening I was told. I don't know if it was too thin then ground into or what. Perhaps the alloy or like a knife, not hot enough before quenching. I have seen small parts heated & tumbled with walnut, leather scrap or other high pure carbon materials. Another was indicating the correct temperature by its loss of magnetism. Maybe that is just wrought iron, I don't know but I do try to learn. This video puts the problem on the machining, either equipment, operator or the engineers specs. Then you have container loads of overseas stuff to throw in the mix. But, I do tend to agree the grinding angles are to blame as a retired engineer told me new hires from college would make mistakes they made & learned from 30+ years ago. So, every 30 years or so, a new problem shows up that wasn't there before. As for what company owns who, I think Holley is up to 80 companies in their portfolio now. DK, ASE master since 78.
I am wondering if the pattern holds oil like the cross hatch on cylinder walls after honing? I had some that looked like these we used on a dwell nose cam with 375 lbs over the nose. We had zero debris in the oil after break in. We ran 15 dyno pulls with zero debris. We might have just gotten lucky, but it was the least debris ever in a new engine.
Great video , I am a Tool and Die maker been building motors my whole life and I can't believe the shit job machining we are getting from all these manufacturers that we pay good money for . I know it has alot to do with lack of zinc in the oils . But here is my problem I have a 1979 Chrysler 300 with a small block 360 and I had purchased a Comp Cams Extreme cam and lifter kit and for the first time in my life I am afraid to install it . What are the best lifter on the market . I'm gonna have to take them to work and check them on a surface plate like you did and check the cam and lifters on a comparator.
Good information. I am in the process of rebuilding my 65 mustang 289. Based on your video and understanding I don’t have dial indicators and a surface table to measure. What are my options on making a lifter purchase. Thanks
Who made those lifters? Can you disassemble one and post a picture of the internals? For years I have stuck with Delphi and Hylift lifters. With Delphi out, I am staying with Hylift. They had a production stop, but are back in production again. When I check lifters on the surface plate the way you did, the Hylift lifters have slightly more crown than the Delphi. When someone brings a lifter in that looks like the one you showed, I don't bother checking anymore, they are just rejected. I don't have a teppet grinder (not yet anyway, I am looking for one). Thanks for the video.
Just thinking about the old Cam Motion Engle and Clay Smith just to name a few ... these companies are coming back ... however this shoddy manufacturing has no place here in America ... crying shame
The lub is not the problem for a new cam going flat. Take a new lifter wipe the bottom off drag your finger nail across it take a pencil and drag it across the lifter you can feel the file as it is filing the lead off of the pencil along with your finger nail. A ground surface is a poor finish. Now take a sheet of red crocus cloth and a old phone book or soft back book `put the sheet down face up. Now take the lifter an rub it in all directions tilting it as you go (a lifter is crowned) until it is smooth like a piece of glass now run your pencil across it it is now longer a file and will not file your cam lobes down, a new lifter is a file. Without doing this what happens is after a cam is run softly for a while, (without polishing the lifter) it finally wears the grind marks off off of the lifer. If you are running real heavy springs a lot of racers will pull the inner spring out to cut the pressure on the cam lobes. When resizing con rods leave the bore 2/10 under sizer wrap crocus cloth around the mandrel then do the pencil and `finger nail test, now you will not have bearing material transfering and killing the oil clearance. Think about this crank shafts are polished after grinding. Me, a long time machinist in large machine shop doing ship repair, paper mill, mining equipment, saw mill, and a GT1 road racer driving a Camaro . This is something I have just kept to myself over the years. Have fun, Don
Great video. About to start building a 351w for my son's first truck. Looks like I should either source a roller block or retro-fit. What are your thoughts on the retro fitting with a spider-cage with reduced base circle vs retro-fit with link bar lifters? Thanks!
Why then haven't the cam companies that sell this junk found this out and not recalled or stopped selling them? They must know this stuff is out of spec and they still shove them out the doors to customers to wreck their new engines.. They blame it on the engine builders not themselves for selling junk. They can get away with it because they have no warranties on them and nothing but glorified paper weights!
You think with better technology and machinery the flat tappet would be the best it’s ever been. I just don’t understand why manufacturers can’t get this right. My new shirt, “ Make flat tappet cams great again”.
The quality problems of import parts starts with the U.S. companies demanding a cheap price from the foreign manufacturers. You get what you pay for! You can also blame the end user, us! When we look through a catalog or online and see different prices for lifters, etc., what do we do? We buy the cheaper set! So the U.S. buyer demands a lower price from the Chinese (etc.) manufacturer at the expense of quality. Most foreign manufacturers meet (or can meet) ISO9000 specifications (or whatever the latest standards are). Thus the blame lies at the feet of the U.S. companies who have sold out to these large corporate entities who only care about short term profit.
More good info. Sounds like a lot of the issues are QC related. Which means manufacturers are cutting corners to get product out the door in a high demand market. That's a good way to hurt your company's reputation in a short time. So, are the GM flat tappets available from Summit still good quality and in spec?
Currently doing a stock V8 build with a weak NOS cam for my daily driver. Lift is so low I reckon it hopefully won’t crap out right away. When I eventually do my hot rod motor I’m gonna pony up for a roller cam. A bad roller cam is still better than a “good” flat tappet cam these days.
@@powellmachineinc3179 No kidding? I can buy a 350 BUICK blank from TA performance. Really what I want is the perfect mild performance daily driver cam that will last 300,000 miles. A little bit of lift, a wee bit of duration. I want the most reliable 350 horsepower that ever existed in a V8.
u cant take nothing 4 granted nowadays...!...these companies just care about the bottom line...NOT...quality...any more...it seems to me...!.?....40 years ago...we never or very,very,seldom had cam & lifter issues...@ least nothing like recenetly...?..wow...great video,thank u...
I miss the days of general low buck hot rodding where you could buy a 50 dollar cam and a cheap set of 25 dollar lifters and it broke in and worked fine.
PEOPLE 8000 miles away who work for 1.30 a day dont give a damn about quality control,they work off of a go,no go ,gauge,fit form function means nothing to them,like give a monkey a banana and he does this all day long,no thanks i buy my power equipment used and old,the old metal is the metal,back when parkerizing and induction flame hardening and other terms that have gone into past,i kept all of my old cams and matching lifters so i don't experience this happy horse caca,i knew the future was going to be plastic,just like the cars,plastic and electronics hit a bump,you are walking,again no thanks being old fashioned has its perks
total generic white box .480 sbc cams were that much and like you said never had trouble .
@Mfil have you ever emailed any oil companies and asked about zinc? There are other things to blame rather than just zinc.
@@jesselarson2570what other things
Unfortunately, long gone my friend. Everything is stupid expensive and not worth a crap
Worked as a high performance automotive machinist since I could hold a wrench.
We checked and machined everything to the 9th degree, every time, all the time.
Stuff was crap back then as well. Even from the big names. There was a sweet spot where manufacturing was pretty damn good overall and has been slipping again ever since.
I trust nothing out of the box.
Thanks for making a straight forward video about this topic that has had way too much drama and speculation surrounding it. Guys were wiping out cams all the time back in the day, so it’s not some new thing.
It was almost universally blamed on improper break in and more than half the damn time it was and still is.
But I’ve always found most parts to be lacking straight out of the box.
That sort of attitude to building anything used to be the norm also.
I believe this checking and complaining to manufacturers led to that golden age when things just worked out of the box.
Nowadays that attitude is gone (almost) and people expect to just bolt parts on and make huge numbers on the dyno. And of course, without that constant checking from consumers, manufacturer standards have slipped back again.
Thanks for doing these videos.It’s so sad how bad the quality control is these days.And all the offshore junk that’s coming into the country..
You're welcome, thank you for watching!
have been reading ever car mag since 1960 every tech article . I learn more here in 12 minutes than any mag articles ever. and I read well thanks.
Awesome, glad you enjoyed it!
All I can say is thanks. After all the failures and opinions you are the only person to show what the true issues are.
You are very welcome,
Great video Daniel.
You and people like us are exposing these parts suppliers for what they are.
Lifters and cams were made in this country for years and minimal problems.
Had more problems in the last 2 to 3 years.
Thanks for sharing and the great video.
Take care, Ed.
Thank you Ed!
Try 10 or more years. Non existent back in the 80's and they blame oil to cover it up.
More shady Rona Shady Tree mechanics = more "issues".
Old guys like me learned this way back in the day.
Thank you for explaining so everyone can understand that there is problems causing failures.
Lifter bores are so bad in the old 60-70’s blocks glad you pointed it out.
Maybe people who want engines built NOW will understand WHY it costs good $$$$ for a well built engine. This includes having a block degreased, bored and honed.
Cam tunnels and lifter bores must be checked for roller camshafts too!
💯!!
It seems as the old engineers of various companies get retired off ,certain details are lost in the rush to modernise the product ,thanks for the clear & concise explanation .
Likely the results of cost saving efforts. Short term bottom line improvement.
I've seen the "brain drain" in the aerospace industry and in the Washington State Department of Transportation. The older engineers have years & years of knowledge and experience and are encouraged/forced to retire early, which results in cumulative loss of knowledge in an industry or company, whichever the case may be. The US colleges can't re-supply the businesses fast enough with qualified professional engineers, and it will take many years for these young workers to gain the experience to apply their knowledge in a value-added way.
Channels like this are the best cause this is need to know stuff .
Thanks for taking the time to explain the lobe taper to lifter crown angle relationship. Learned something to add to my knowledge base!
Best video on what is going on with wiping cams. What you described makes more sense than any of the other hairball ideas ive heard.
Yep, just facts, no opinions
GREAT EXPLANATION. That is why I follow you, for good, honest current information for engine builders!👍
@@martywilsonwilsonenginesho7940 we really appreciate that 🙏
@powellmachineinc3179 getting off subject, kinda, but could you explain why you have to have more lift on a roller (GM in my case) than a flat tappet so I can get the same performance from my FIRST roller decision? Would make an excellent video. I may just order my cam from you so I may just call the shop. Thanks Daniel! Your awesome, I'm OLD! 🙂
@martywilsonwilsonenginesho7940 it's not a "have to" but most roller designs are going to take advantage of more lobe lift where as many ft are a lower lift to limit lobe velocity
@powellmachineinc3179 Thank you Daniel! So if I run a .500 lift flat tappet, what is an equivalent roller? .520-.540 or more than that? Around 284-290* duration on the flat tappet cams I used to run. Sorry that I am trying to pick your brain, I need to pick a cam.
FANTASTIC SLEUTHING! Love this great info, there is no shortage of videos with opinions and misinformation but this and your cam videos are the first to scientifically test the parts and identify the real problems. Excellent presentation and content, you're making SC proud... I'm originally from Charleston.
Thank you!! We appreciate you!
You continue to highlight just how complex an engine can be. Assuming the OE's got it right the first time and the engine ran out to 100-200K miles and now you want to rebuild it and buy a bunch of parts from different aftermarket people and put it together, the potential for problems are numerous. Thank you.
Excellent work sir! Merry Christmas and have a Happy and Safe New Year!
As an elderly Rodder I'm impressed with gains in cyl head flow, swirl promotion that change old lackluster engine designs into powerhouses . Same applies to Cam and Pistons. Ya , costs alot , but it always did for those who had hard running cars. Plus the boatloads of labor to figure combo's out. Nice to have great power delivered in a box.
No doubt
What a great video. This is the stuff we need to know. Thanks for making and posting.
You are very welcome
I bought complete Comp Cams n lifter kits with the reduced ratio roller rockers, lifters, timing gears n chains for my small block n big block Chevy
Motors n both motors have been running for awhile now. Close to 20k miles on the small block n about 10k on the big block. They both were mild cams with moderate lifts 456 n 460.
I have not had any issues whatsoever. One thing though. I had done all this before covid hit the fan. After COVID, I noticed that many engine builders were complaining about bad cams n lifters being purchased from reputable companies. Long story short, our US companies were now outsourcing the manufacturing to offshore companies, yep, Chinese companies n others. Seems during/after covid many of our US companies closed and/or laid off employees due to the Pandemic. I believe that because of that, our companies lost a quality workforce that "knew" what they were doing when it came to manufacturing these components for our market. Seems everything went to shit after covid, and frankly the new millennial workforce don't know Jack about quality or work ethics or anything about the American Pride us old-timers knew n respected.
Seems now we're just throwing the dice
on what we get. It's a sad state of affairs n we are the ones paying for it!
with attrition so is much lost experience
It is just another part of the plandemic Chy-nah virus to destroy the USA and empower globalists and china in My opinion . It's disgusting
Great video! Need to see the finished result!
Wow ! This is what I call real “meat and potatoes” information ! The way you presented this info was on point ! This makes me consider wanting to send y’all my “very big name” lifters to y’all for inspection / remachining. I suspect hardness testing as well as measuring lifter taper could potentially save me a few hundred dollars ! I will also have my block’s lifter bores machined for correct location and correct plane or axis of operation. Not checking these things has got us to where we are now, I realize. Thank you so much for this video !
Absolutely! Glad to do it!
@@powellmachineinc3179 how much would you charge to check my new Uninstalled camshaft and lifters for proper taper and correcting any issues? V8
I can bring them to you today or tomorrow if possible and/or feasible
Thank You for the comprehensive explanation . This is one of the unfortunate results of poor quality control and outsourcing components . The little things can ruin an entire engine .
Absolutely! Glad you enjoyed!!
I don’t live very far away- so I’m bringing my cam and lifters to you - to check!!!!! You are amazingly full of info- no one wants to give!!!!!
Thank you, definitely, glad to help
Sir , thank you so much for this and all of your tutorial ... some much appreciate sharing your plethora of knowledge and experience
Never ever had problems until synthetic oils hit the market!!.. .
And when was that?
I was looking into a new set . This came at perfect time thanks for the info .
You are welcome!
@@powellmachineinc3179 I daily Two 68 Darts.. mine is swapped 318.. and my Ladies Is still Slant6..
Very informative, sir. Thank you, for the upload! Just subscribed and liked.
It’s not really a taper it’s more of a “dome”. It’s supposed to be a flat tapped lifter lol. Made thousands for racing and everyone wanted a domed lifter but we would polish them to remove grinding marks! Corners should have a controlled radius and very small. This guy knows what he’s talking about.
Very interesting,
I’m a retired toolmaker and hotroder , very good information, great videos
Thank you sir!!
very interesting video. Thank you. I really gave this subject a thought in the past hut it makes perfect sense.
Thank You
Finally a more defined answer to why we hear of so many flat tappet cam issues.
Ty!
Thank you for doing the legwork here, good info!
You are very welcome!
Now we know what is causing the camshaft going flat thanks great vid
Your very welcome, lot's more Tech vids coming soon
Iv put 3 flat tappet cam and lifter sets in my truck. iv ran zdp ( zinc ) in all of them. my dad told me he had watched me whip out more cams in 3 months, then in 30 years, repairing cars. I'm 100% sure iv installed them correctly, and I'm 100% going to a roller cam
Let us know, we can do you a roller in under a week
Nice presentation, well done...thank you.
Glad you liked it!
There is a lot of videos and theories about the cause of this problem.
Rebuilt lifters, wrong break in oil.
But this is living proof.
Thank you!
I want to upgrade the cam in my sbc but to be safe I would have to go retro fit hydraulic roller and I can't afford the extra expense. I miss the good old days!
Use a cam button and during break in use weak/soft springs if you use a flat tappet. Make sure lifter turns in the bore.
After running the engine, with magnet on the drain plug, pull plug check what's on the magnet. It's normal to have some dust, oily particles on the magnet.
Then switch out with the springs.
I just replaced these in my 4.0 jeep. Mine weren't bad but it had over 200k on it and the head was off. I know I know don't go on about new lifters and old cam. That wasn't the problem.
I put a new set of sealed power ones in. After reassembly and during breakin I had a slight tick at first. I thought oh it's just a little lazy. When I put them in I used cam lube and they floated easily on the bore. After warm up and buttoning stuff up to drive it I got 20 miles on it and had a hard miss. Actually a slight miss and a hard miss.
Went through the usual diagnostic and replaced suspect and questionable old parts. Took rocker cover back off and dod slo mo. Two rockers had less movement. Several of the lifters we're trashed. Totally trashed. Had to take what was a head gasket job down to cam and oil pan etc. Remove front of jeep for access etc. The lifters wiped out my cam. Inspecting them the new ones I put on were not machined on the top. No crown. Like none at all. Some showed the edges were higher than. The center just like yours. Turned a simple head gasket and because I was there valve job into just about an engine rebuild.
Yeah, there is no problem with new lifters on a used Cam, but all the issues today, I would not have touched it, hate to hear it!
Thank you for your knowledge 💪🏽
Absolutely, we are just trying to get to the bottom of these problems
That is terrible. I think these big companies don't have car guys working in the factory. They just go to work like the usual office drones, and have no passion for doing this stuff. It destroys their motivation to really care.
Several years ago, people were quick to blame everything on oil and break in procedure for new cams, and nothing else. It especially applied to big cams. I did wonder how the most expensive Corvettes of the 1960s managed to last longer than these replacement high horsepower cams. Now I see the major difference is that those Corvettes were machined correctly.
Great bit of information. Makes you wonder if whomever is doing to the lifter manufacturing if their tooling is worn out. Would make sense if all the tappets are sourced from the same overseas place.
Definitely there are alot of overseas, but these were usa pretty sure
Every car guy needs to see this video. The quality of aftermarket parts is going to hell and no one says a word.
Good stuff thanks for showing what you’re seeing
Absolutely!, you're welcome!
excellent video! I have found repeatedly that the bullseye wear pattern that often develops on today's flat tappet lifters, does not pattern out to the edge of the lifter. I blamed the taper problem on the cam instead of the lifter when I discovered camshaft's I installed reguarly for customers no longer had as much taper as the previous ones from past experience. Even used camshaft's that lived a long time had .001 more taper than many of the newer grinds. I Never considered grinding the lifter to match the camshaft but I have had camshaft's custom ground with more taper on the ramp to force the lifter to spin and closer match the taper of the lifters I purchase in bulk. This drastically improved failure rates for me. Nothing can fix an out of square lifter face except re-facing it obviously so now I am headed out to the shop to check out some new lifters. Quality of the materials used is a big enough problem as it is.
It can't pattern out to the edge, if it did that would mean the lobe design requires a larger diameter than is available and it would immediately destroy the cam.
Thank you for taking the time in putting this together. Between wore out bores, reman lifters, and low grade oils these days, a builder needs to be very careful about geometry before going one step further. The lobe taper versus lifter crown are complimentary [if correct]: there is a proximal high load tangent area that ought to begin roughly 0.050" from the edge of the lifter. Too far out risks damage, too close to center and the lifter may not spin. I was pawing through API spec history, and recent developments still certify an oil with an unreal wear limit: IVA tests [astm d6891] under sn and sm specs allow an astonishing 90 microns as a fail point: that's 0.0035". A flat tappet cam is dead with half that. And, as best I can tell, the sp oils abandoned the test completely and only do an IVB "lifter" test which really means bucket. I suppose anyone grinding flat tappets these days is in need of third party oil tests for survival.. which is a good body of work: oil companies change additives/properties with or without notice, yet still fall in the same spec categories and the consumer cannot tell what changed if relying on a label.
Yeah, we stopped all flat tappet work period, rollers only
Awesome video! How much can you take off the face without damaging hardness? Do Delphi lifters have this problem also?
With the consistant lifter debacle, it would be nice if those people that think about continueing using flat tappet camshafts, would just jump ship and just retro fit their older engines to a roller setup. Figure all the time and money wasted replacing both cam and lifters when it gets wiped out during break in or just afterwards. Then theres dealing with the metal shavings that get circulated through out the engine, it would be best to bite the bullet and just pay more for quality built roller cam and lifter setup, just instal once and no break in required.
💯 agree
That's just what the cam companies want you to do. $125 for a flat tappet cam and lifter kit or $1000+ to retrofit an old engine to a roller camshaft. It's all a scam.
Great info thank’s!
Very informative as usual, thank you 👍 🇦🇺
Our pleasure!
outstanding information.
ty sir
Back in a days machinists where proud of what they did and didn´t let shit out of shop as every one else good in their jobs. We did good, some of us great, got customers and get orders no need advertising. Now that pride got old and retired, in came the profits and mass production. Cnc machines kicked out our old lathes and grinders that we used and measured what we did cos we had to match tolerances of our machines. In cnc they trust now, no needs of verniers calipers or dykem. My old boss went easy for money, ditched workers and bought machine center. It coud produce almost week production in one night comparing to us workers. Welders became packers for those average quality products.... That was it, now you cannot find a shop or parts you coud use for a proper built when it comes to machine industry. I miss old times when we had time to do things well and got payed for it.
Thanks For the info Daniel!!
Any time!
Had a new comp cam fail straight away. Did the zinc oil and 2000rpm and all that shit. Still was ticking from day one and wiped a lobe.
Yep, We hear it daily
Same. $2,500 on a olds 455 and the comp cam shit the bed in 15 minutes
Great video, thanks
It's why more and more guys say it's cheaper to run a roller cam even though it costs more up front
good info Daniel!
Hey Scott, sure is good info.
Some of us are definitely next level.
Glad you're watching Daniel.
GENIOUS.....tolerant......measuring concern.
Such a damn good video, thanks a million
Ty!
Excellent explanations and demos, thoroughly enjoy them. Greatly appreciate you sharing your expertise, very interesting results.
Have you always "fixed" lifters/cams or only in the last 5-10 years?
I'd say it's a last "5 year " problem, thank you for the support!!
Just when profiles can make a cam run much better then a real need for roller design ,suddenly although manufacturers were saying not to use roller cams unless all out race cars Now this seems to be everywhere . i find very interesting considering all the price gouging that has been going on int the last 2 years
Good video Bruce
Thanks 👍
You make learning fun
Very relevant information 👌🏻
You are vary welcome
It effectively comes down to knowing what you are doing and effective quality control then!
Sadly two things that are often missing in this day and age.
You know whats really weird? That its taken several other people realizing theres a problem and looking into it and finding these surface grinding issues. But the mega million dollar cam companies dont give 2 sh*ts about it to look into it themselves. And they probably wont fix it either.
Just write millions of complaints to them....flood their emails and letter boxes.
Good information!
Glad it was helpful!
Great presentation and explanation - Thanks. The pattern on top of those out of the box looks really strange to me.
Yeah, it's supposed to be the "secret sauce "...
Great information
Thank you!
THANKS MAN
2:37 Question: As you move the dial indicator around, the deflection is not linear as you move toward the edge, confirming that the lifter crown is a curve (possibly spherical), not a cone. So the "taper" you mention at 1:20 is not a fixed value but a curve, and some part of that curve will be tangent to and rub on the tapered cam lobe. As I understand things, the lifter is supposed to wear from there to match the cam lobe. Seems like maybe different lifters have different radius crowns and smaller radius crowns result in more point contact which would wipe out the cam & lifter. Any logic in my reasoning?
All I can say is wow...just wow. Its very irritating to me that even at the least.. whoever is the operator has no quality control at all as far as what is coming off the machine. hate to see the wheel finish on the stone they use...and its on many machines I assume. Also the companies always blame the customer for wrongdoing of a cam going flat. Its been going on for many years and only getting worse. until the company suffers bottom line hardship and this being why then nothing will change either...very frustrating
Great video! As I am about to dyno a 454 with the same exact lifters you got me kinda scared!! As a side note- I REALLY think there needs to be way more oversize lifter availability. +.002, +.003 would be nice. Almost impossible to have a set of roller lifters, especially, not be too loose in a stock block.
I agree!
Wow and from Crower. How the heck can they let these out the door.
They just rebox... like everyone else
Check your other clearances. Total height, inside diameter, and plunger. They are all bunged up for tolerance. You will find the same issues with retro fit rollers.
I’m really digging your videos. I’ve been supercharged on your cam and lifter videos. I’m doing a junkyard build off with other CZcamsrs on a 440 I have. Man is it wore out. BTW, this thing has been laying in a barn over 30 yrs. Pulled the lifters, they’re concave instead of convex. Cam lobes have no taper. They’re wore flat. I assume the lobes wore flat and the lifters just started rotating less and less. It’s incredible this cam and lifters didn’t eat each other. Any thoughts? Better metallurgy? Better oil back in the day?
9:41 time stamp if you’re so inclined to see the lifters. czcams.com/video/77S8qaIle18/video.html
I just bought a set of the Crower cam saver lifters for a SBF. First one out of the box, that lifter has a big deep circular scratch in the face and all the rest of them look like they were ground being spun by a drill and ground with an angle grinder. I sent them back. Most were totally flat and some concave.
They just rebox like everyone
I'm retired now (44 years certified automotive machinist and Class A mechanic) but have never heard of a tapered lobe on a camshaft ever or any other journal surface like that is always flat and parallel or it fails. The flat tappets always had a 101" radius and spin in the lifter bore 3-8 rpm if memory serves me.
PS: check the dressing diamond for your large stone it can cause the tapper. I have had that problem way back when.
What I would love to see you do. Setup of a fixture where you can show a cam lobe with a 2.5 degree angle and a lifter with a 1.5 degree angle and they mesh together on the same angle. You should be able to put a light behind the cam lobe and lifter to see any film any clearance or deviation between the two parts.
That would be very interesting to see that. Also, if the lifter bore is too large, I would like to see how that effects the angles of the cam and lifter. It would be great if both the cam lobe and lifter were blued so we might see the pattern of the cam and while the lifter is being rotated.
I realize this would cause you a lot of work to do this. JR
Very informative Daniel. Just another reason to stop assembling engines. Hydraulic roller the world! Or have you fix the flats if rules require them!
Yeah, we stopped doing flat cams 2 years ago, our lifter work is helping definitely, but there is a material compatability issue somewhere, we are having the composition tested on lifters and cams, there's more going on than meets the eye.
Wow...the more info you present...the crazier it gets! I looked at a bunch of high mileage/hard use lifters from a very mild street cam 305 and 350 engines. They were no problems, and I can see the contact area like you mentioned. I swapped the cam in a gm performance crate 350 with an Edelbrock performer cam an springs...no problem. I am going to use that factory cam and lifters in a mild 305, they look fine to my eye. I also have a couple of Comp Cams, unused 10+ years old in the box and three sets of Melling lifers, 10+ year or more older. They look as good as the GM lifters. Is getting these checked before use a viable option at Powell? I am going to roll the dice on the 305, but I would like to dodge a bullet before I use the 10+ older unused stuff. What do you think? Thanks for reading this.
At an independent shop in the early 80's, we were working on 10-12 yr old vehicles or less. While the 305 cu in was a popular engine all smogged up, I had GM's lined up with bad cams & destroyed lifter, it made me wonder. I was too busy to investigate but the cams and lifters are heat treaded by case hardening I was told. I don't know if it was too thin then ground into or what. Perhaps the alloy or like a knife, not hot enough before quenching. I have seen small parts heated & tumbled with walnut, leather scrap or other high pure carbon materials. Another was indicating the correct temperature by its loss of magnetism. Maybe that is just wrought iron, I don't know but I do try to learn. This video puts the problem on the machining, either equipment, operator or the engineers specs. Then you have container loads of overseas stuff to throw in the mix. But, I do tend to agree the grinding angles are to blame as a retired engineer told me new hires from college would make mistakes they made & learned from 30+ years ago. So, every 30 years or so, a new problem shows up that wasn't there before.
As for what company owns who, I think Holley is up to 80 companies in their portfolio now.
DK, ASE master since 78.
I am wondering if the pattern holds oil like the cross hatch on cylinder walls after honing? I had some that looked like these we used on a dwell nose cam with 375 lbs over the nose. We had zero debris in the oil after break in. We ran 15 dyno pulls with zero debris. We might have just gotten lucky, but it was the least debris ever in a new engine.
Then there's the variable of the lifter bore angularity. Roller tappets for the win.
Great video , I am a Tool and Die maker been building motors my whole life and I can't believe the shit job machining we are getting from all these manufacturers that we pay good money for . I know it has alot to do with lack of zinc in the oils . But here is my problem I have a 1979 Chrysler 300 with a small block 360 and I had purchased a Comp Cams Extreme cam and lifter kit and for the first time in my life I am afraid to install it . What are the best lifter on the market . I'm gonna have to take them to work and check them on a surface plate like you did and check the cam and lifters on a comparator.
Good information. I am in the process of rebuilding my 65 mustang 289. Based on your video and understanding I don’t have dial indicators and a surface table to measure. What are my options on making a lifter purchase. Thanks
Unfortunately we haven't found a store bought lifter that's actually"good"
Great information. 👍 where are yall located.
Great video 👍🇦🇺
Thank you
Congrats to Aleesha Powell, employee of the month AND employee of the year! Must be gettin a raise right? ;)
It's not fair....she gets it every month!
Who made those lifters? Can you disassemble one and post a picture of the internals? For years I have stuck with Delphi and Hylift lifters. With Delphi out, I am staying with Hylift. They had a production stop, but are back in production again.
When I check lifters on the surface plate the way you did, the Hylift lifters have slightly more crown than the Delphi. When someone brings a lifter in that looks like the one you showed, I don't bother checking anymore, they are just rejected. I don't have a teppet grinder (not yet anyway, I am looking for one).
Thanks for the video.
China or Taiwan
Just thinking about the old Cam Motion Engle and Clay Smith just to name a few ... these companies are coming back ... however this shoddy manufacturing has no place here in America ... crying shame
yes but they will take 400 Dollars an hour who can afford a 400 Dollar lifter per piece?
The lub is not the problem for a new cam going flat. Take a new lifter wipe the bottom off drag your finger nail across it take a pencil and drag it across the lifter you can feel the file as it is filing the lead off of the pencil along with your finger nail. A ground surface is a poor finish. Now take a sheet of red crocus cloth and a old phone book or soft back book `put the sheet down face up. Now take the lifter an rub it in all directions tilting it as you go (a lifter is crowned) until it is smooth like a piece of glass now run your pencil across it it is now longer a file and will not file your cam lobes down, a new lifter is a file. Without doing this what happens is after a cam is run softly for a while, (without polishing the lifter) it finally wears the grind marks off off of the lifer. If you are running real heavy springs a lot of racers will pull the inner spring out to cut the pressure on the cam lobes. When resizing con rods leave the bore 2/10 under sizer wrap crocus cloth around the mandrel then do the pencil and `finger nail test, now you will not have bearing material transfering and killing the oil clearance. Think about this crank shafts are polished after grinding. Me, a long time machinist in large machine shop doing ship repair, paper mill, mining equipment, saw mill, and a GT1 road racer driving a Camaro . This is something I have just kept to myself over the years. Have fun, Don
We use a profilometer and grind to tje proper finish and crown
Great video. About to start building a 351w for my son's first truck. Looks like I should either source a roller block or retro-fit. What are your thoughts on the retro fitting with a spider-cage with reduced base circle vs retro-fit with link bar lifters? Thanks!
Ty
Why then haven't the cam companies that sell this junk found this out and not recalled or stopped selling them? They must know this stuff is out of spec and they still shove them out the doors to customers to wreck their new engines.. They blame it on the engine builders not themselves for selling junk. They can get away with it because they have no warranties on them and nothing but glorified paper weights!
Broken parts is factored into the sale's.
See why are Comp cams junk.
You think with better technology and machinery the flat tappet would be the best it’s ever been. I just don’t understand why manufacturers can’t get this right. My new shirt, “ Make flat tappet cams great again”.
China sucks.
The quality problems of import parts starts with the U.S. companies demanding a cheap price from the foreign manufacturers. You get what you pay for! You can also blame the end user, us! When we look through a catalog or online and see different prices for lifters, etc., what do we do? We buy the cheaper set! So the U.S. buyer demands a lower price from the Chinese (etc.) manufacturer at the expense of quality. Most foreign manufacturers meet (or can meet) ISO9000 specifications (or whatever the latest standards are). Thus the blame lies at the feet of the U.S. companies who have sold out to these large corporate entities who only care about short term profit.
I agree 💯, I tell customers all the time..you are why China is winning
These were Crower, I think someone got repackaged white box lifters, not what they paid for.
You just got a new customer
Thank you for educating us. One question,where are these lifters made? I’ll bet they aren’t made in the U.S.A.
More good info. Sounds like a lot of the issues are QC related. Which means manufacturers are cutting corners to get product out the door in a high demand market. That's a good way to hurt your company's reputation in a short time.
So, are the GM flat tappets available from Summit still good quality and in spec?
Thank you!, Gm doesn't make flat lifters any more, so there a rebox, idk, we have a good lifter on our website
With all that, it would seem the hardness of the cam and lifters would be the next important item.
We have a video on that very subject
Currently doing a stock V8 build with a weak NOS cam for my daily driver. Lift is so low I reckon it hopefully won’t crap out right away. When I eventually do my hot rod motor I’m gonna pony up for a roller cam. A bad roller cam is still better than a “good” flat tappet cam these days.
Lmk, we grind you a roller to fit your package
@@powellmachineinc3179 No kidding? I can buy a 350 BUICK blank from TA performance. Really what I want is the perfect mild performance daily driver cam that will last 300,000 miles. A little bit of lift, a wee bit of duration. I want the most reliable 350 horsepower that ever existed in a V8.
@VinnyMartello I'm having calls of stock vehicles with flat tappets dying, it's a problem.
I bought a melling camshaft that while new in box, is older than shit. I’m thinking it predates these problems.
u cant take nothing 4 granted nowadays...!...these companies just care about the bottom line...NOT...quality...any more...it seems to me...!.?....40 years ago...we never or very,very,seldom had cam & lifter issues...@ least nothing like recenetly...?..wow...great video,thank u...
Good reason to go roller.