Just going off of Comp Cams website: Comp Solid Roller Cam Cam: 11-717-9 $505.95 Lifters: 819-16 $587.95 Springs: 947-16 $484.95 Valve Locks: 612-16 $38.95 Steel Retainers: 722-16 $387.95 Dist. Gear: 12200 $143.95 Total: $2,149.70 Comp Solid Flat Tappet Cam Cam: 11-613-5 $324.95 Lifters: 800-16 $278.95 Springs: 924-16 $154.95 Valve Locks: 612-16 $38.95 Steel Retainers: 741-16 $80.95 Total: $878.75 Difference of: $1,270.95 That $1,270.95 will pay for my converter and my rear end gears, with a bunch of change left over. Isky's prices are a little different on their parts, but the final pricing comes in about the same.
Why are the springs and retainers so much more expensive for the roller? And why does the roller need a distributor gear where the flat tappet doesn’t? The parts aren’t adding up. If you matched the other parts and only changed the cam and lifters the difference is much closer than you’re making it out to be.
I don't know how back in the seventies a small block Chevy with a factory Z-28 hydraulic cam and no special lifters lasted for 50,000 miles with the 11 1/2 to 1 pistons, double hump heads and a factory crank in it driven daily. Must have been lucky I guess.
In Australia the cam will cost you about $900 and a set of lifters is about $1200 and those are pretty much starting prices with better quality lifters costing much more. For small block chrysler, chev is always a bit cheaper. Flat tappet cam is around $400 and lifters around $200.
Exhange [0.65 before the bank adds its spread in the mix], plus...vat taxes are highly regressive/punitive - a growth killer. Throw 10% leveraged off import duty, and thats the lions share of cost difference. I support Australia making more go-fast bits [even if it gives the greenies a stroke]
I own a Pontiac, here in the States, my cost, is NOWHERE NEAR what Dan is sayin......he's trying to help, but you sir being an Aussie, and me trying to keep my Pontiac alive, WE are outside his window of cost.....yea, I poked at him for it, but this is a GREAT site, and he's a good dude....CHEERS Mate!!
Funny how times change. In the 1960's when I was growing up. The "common knowledge" was that roller lifters couldn't survive on the street because they required almost perfectly clean oil. Roller cams and lifters were considered "race only". I just finished overhauling a 3.5 liter Nissan engine that spun a rod bearing. At 160,000 miles and terrible maintenance, I reused the bucket lifters, they were fine. Something stinks in the supply chain for aftermarket American cars. That said, life is too short and I agree that rollers are the way to go.
Back in "the day", spring tech wasn't were it's at today, the grind tech wasn't, lifters, etc. It wasn't really wise to run a race roller on the streets, it wouldn't last a week or two on a daily driver!
If you loose a cam it will likely damage the pistons too. They may look OK but it will pack iron particles into the skirts. If you don't think so wash the pistons in water and let them dry. If there's iron in the skirts they will show up as rusts spots on the skirts.
Glad someone brought this up. I've talked to plenty of people who've seen cams wipe and one of the big tickets is the new set of pistons and rings and a hone, if not a bore as well. One other thing is that you can probably get a better torque/hp situation out of a roller while keeping the idle vacuum the same, etc.
The best advice I heard about flat tappet cams was: 1. At least during break-in run an oil filter pre-screen (Moroso MOR-23845) and plug the bypass so all of the oil has to go through the filter. 2. Mark the pushrods and make sure they all rotate properly. If you see one or more that is rotating slowly or not at all, use your fingers to help get it/them going. If you can't get it/them going, you have to stop and figure it out.
But wait there's more: 1. To increase the chance of success, use a nitrided cam or DLC treated lifters. 2. Check for proper pushrod rotation at intervals throughout the life of the engine. For example, immediately after cam/lifter break-in, after the first 10 to 20 hours of operation (500 - 1000 miles), and at every or every other oil change depending on the interval. 3. A set of old valve covers with windows cut out makes viewing pushrod rotation less messy. 4. In some cases, to lessen the mess, pushrod rotation can be checked at cranking speed. Be careful. Don't let it go unless you're sure every pushrod is rotating properly. If you have to run the engine to be sure, do it. That's just how it is these days with flat tappet cams.
Just think of the one time price increase as an insurance plan that you only have to pay once initially, not every month... Thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights!
I’ve been using the Delphi HL66 lifters and haven’t had any issues with my FT cams but I’m still switching to rollers on everything because the price isn’t as far away as it used to be. Good video.
I've had good luck with a GM performance parts lifter that has a hardened tool steel foot Make sure you buy them from summit though not the Chevy dealership there too expensive at the Chevy dealership I think they're the same lifters they use in those high-performance crate motors for certain racing classes
@@carlpreston1680 only thing that changes is the quality of the pin that actually holds the roller. I found out through screwing up a lot of cheap lifters.
@@carlpreston1680 Its many many many yrs since you could buy real Chevy FT lifters esp a solid from a dealership. Never seen them on summit either, all discontinued. What PN did you buy?
@@gordocarbo it's been a couple years since I bought them I'll have to see if I have the part number still , The same lifter at the local Chevy dealership was almost $400 for the set they were cheaper at summit racing
Big body Buick! My car was a 53 Century with a V8. I was 16 yrs old. My father owned a 56 Buick Roadmaster. That was a Big Body Buick for sure. Needed a big car with 6 youngins in tow. Enjoy your videos. Please keep up the honesty you have portrayed. Not a gear head, but I enjoyed growing up with neighbors that were.
great points and great to see the receipts. I like to ask those that say roller is too expensive "but can you afford to build your flat tappet engine twice??"
Same crowd that insists their cheap chinese heads with white box springs "are fine cause see my burnout?" Cant tell them a thing. Cheap is that way for good reason. Most dont know what to look for anyways
As an antique car mechanic, my problem isn’t the cost (investment) in a roller setup, it’s the complete lack of roller options for say… Studebakers, AMCs, MGs, Triumphs, any old straight six, nailheads, anything made by anybody in the early to mid fifties, and most holdovers into the sixties, Willys, MEL engines, anything else I can think of that’s foreign with pushrods… the list goes on. If everybody building a convenient American V8 goes to roller cams, that will likely make the quality of the rest of the lifters that we can’t do without even worse, because there’s even less demand for them. Maybe companies should spend a little bit extra per lifter or cam like they used to making sure they aren’t crap, and stop irresponsibly selling their dreck to an unknowing public. Instead of retrofitting an entire engine (even if I could), I’d rather drop an extra hundred or two on parts I can trust. Hell, I have to do it on the back end anyway, because I send everything flat tappet to a local cam grinder to check tapers and surfaces, and regrind if necessary. What if the companies were actually held accountable, instead of us giving up?
You're not going to have any influence over the OEM's. Even the entire hot rod community together doesn't buy as much product as any of the OEM's separately. There is no one going to subsidize these esoteric parts with current production stuff. Flat tappet cams are obsolete, have been since the 90's. At best, you might find boutique manufacturers to do your lifter in something durable like tool steel or a spring steel or something. There might be a market here for someone, I don't know. Everyone I know is bailing out of the automotive industry, they're looking for a desk job working 35hrs/week getting paid to surf the internet or something.
Far as I know OEM stopped making ft lifters decades ago when the retro roller craze started. Now many want to run FT again and no good lifters to be found Ive had a HR cam fail in 15k miles, roller lifters puke etc all aftermarket Roller is no guarantee so many opt out and want to go back
@@gordocarbo Some of these are well over 200K, the couple of times I've been in them for bent push rods, lifter faces looked great. Even the flathead lifter faces looked good.
For decades we have been using rollers only on drag racing, road racing and street cruising. In the long term rollers are the same cost, never have to worry about flat tappet cams. Don't have to worry about ZDDP either !!!
Considering my current conflicts with a certain cam manufacturer, I believe you have got yourself a new customer. I'm in the middle of 2 engines right now and am about ready to order cams. I'll be contacting you soon.
The last time i built a FE was two yrs ago. I did have it apart this summer to basicly check it over becouse i changed heads anyway, but i reused the cam & lifters. But i used a crower flat tappet & i bought summit lifters ($60 bucks) & i have sevral sets of springs here in my shop so i was able to do the break in with soft springs. But it was all successful. Still running good today. That being said i would love to go roller. But i dont think flat tappets are dead yet. I plan on building another FE for a different truck of mine & im planning on flat tappet again. Mainly becouse of cost. And i havnt had a failure yet.........
Of course everyone bases engine rebuild and upgrade costs on small block chevys.......well all of us dont have a chevy!!!!!! If you can retrofit my 385 series BBF with roller cam to duplicate stock use and stock heads and stock valvetrain for less than 900 i will send you my engine. Good luck finding a 112 lsa, 192- 204 duration .467 and .486 lift, 460 bbf roller cam, which in hyd flat tappet form is a stock equivalent replacement. 7.9:1 in these 80's fords is not anything but stock cam friendly. I dont need more power, just need reliability
I don't understand. It sounds like you are saying flat tappit stuff is just junk?? It's all I have ever put together and I have had no problems. And I am a amateur. Are people not lubricating things properly during assembly ? Just trying to understand. I have not built anything in a long time and I realize things change.
Thankyou for explaining the cost difference between roller and flat tappet cam components. Could you please explain what the minimum Engine Compression Ratio requirement is for a roller camshaft to operate properly. I look forward to reply, thank you sir.
What this video is saying is a roller from him is at least $1038. Need better springs? Now it's $1238. No timing set, no assembly lube, no gaskets, etc. When someone says a roller is a grand or two this video isn't proof to the contrary. It's not about the difference, it's about the total cost. When a budget builder looks around he'll find flat tappet stuff so cheap that it will likely compel him to take a chance. Look at the Lunati Bare Bones stuff. Cam and lifter sets for under $170 with decent specs. Let's say they work 19 times out of 20 or even 9 times out of 10. Most guys will feel those odds are good enough.
I don't know what you mean by that. You got out of the flat tappet business and you'd like everyone to spend in accordance with your decision. That's what it sounds like to me. The truth of the matter is that simply isn't practical for many/most people. I was doing nothing and ran across a SBC kit that was cam, lifters, timing set, assembly lube, oil additive and gaskets for $264. The last time I changed a cam in a SBC I got everything from a guy on eBay for $230. To say the difference is a few trips to the local watering hole or a handful of fast food meals is disingenuous. Put together a retrofit SBC roller kit that is somewhere near complete for significantly less than $1000 and you'll be saying something.
@@EchoSixMike Maybe you saw the other comments I made here about things you can do to help insure success with flat tappets. In general I agree, if you can afford it go roller. Step 1 start with a roller block. To me retrofitting a non-roller is an expensive, un-natural act. Use your head. DLC treated lifers aren't expensive. Mark the pushrods and make sure they all spin properly, not only after break-in but at intervals throughout the life of the engine. Carefully consider your cam, spring and rocker ratio choices. Don't overdo it. You're more likely to succeed than fail. Nobody talks about all the flat tappet valve trains that work right. Because all you hear about are the failures, after awhile it starts to seem like they all fail. That's not true at all.
@@kd6tas number one thing to do is check lobe taper and lifter crown on flat tappet! 35% of failures is from that. Most of the failures are from improper lifter crowns.
I'm converting from a Solid Roller to Hydraulic Roller and have just moments ago sent you Mr. Daniel an email requesting your suggestions/advice regarding what I might need for my Street Rod. I'm hoping that I have given you enough information to supply me with the potential answer to my request. Thank You in advance for taking the time to respond to that email. Please note: I am in the market to purchase the requested items from Powell Machine Inc.
For me I find the source of information makes all the difference. When I look at what the big cam manufacturers recommend for my SLIGHTLY WARMED UP STREET SBC....THE COST DIFFERENCE IS OVER $1000. Obviously Powell Machine is offering choices that get the job done, and fit the average guys budget. Where you get you info is more important than ever.
@@powellmachineinc3179 Your demo of refaced NEW lifters shows the poor machining in bright lights. I have about 4 sets of pre-2005 GM/DELPHI FT lifters and a couple of unused Comp Cams, same vintage. If I understand correctly...it's the lifter quality not the break in that's the problem. I'm going to use them on some mild street builds. But If I can do the roller set up for the price $$$ break you describe, I finally see a way to make the switch. Your videos have been the top on this subject, by far.
I run a 302 SB chev with a CROWER 636 lift solid roller on the street with Hi performance pin oiled lifters HIPPO - The cam kit with pushrods, springs, retainers, locks, cam button etc was about $1800. The hippo lifters were over half the total.
Bught their severe duty (pre hippo option) shaft rockers manley pushrods Isky billet sr cam. Yes it was frigging expensive but know better than to try cheap.
I wish the big 3 would start making thier good ft lifters again! If I used my go to Isky cam or a cheap PAW ssi hft Id use the GM lifters and never ever did I have an issue. Some builds I have no need or $ for a roller My recent solid roller setup for sbc cost a ton well over a grand. Plus shaft rockers The $$$ Pac springs I paid for...wound up being run of the mill comps, hello bent pushrods. Again.
I’m so glad I found this CZcams channel. This was a very informative video thank you sharing this. Just subscribed. Eddie Patterson, Silverstreet South Carolina.
If you are going with a factory hydraulic roller block SBC truck engine like I am that came with a flat tappet but has the provisions for roller it's actually cheap. Here's what I've spent... Delta Camshaft ground me a xr270-10 hydraulic roller Camshaft on a genuine gm core for $145 + $40 core. Elgin hydraulic roller lifters are $112.95 for 16. The complete kit from Summit Racing with the brace, lifter "dog bones" , and cam plate is $87. I spent $180 on .600 lift Z28 springs that give you 130lbs closed with the damper removed, screw in studs, steel retainers and locks to eliminate the rotators etc. The machine shop charged me $195 to cut and tap for the studs and cutting guides and assembling not including the unrelated valve job. So I know it's right. It's really not too terribly expensive for alot of applications. I've had good luck with flat tappet cams, knock on wood. I use Delta Camshafts and their lifters with oiling modifications and I'm at 3 so far no issues. But I like to utilize a roller cam anytime I can. They make power and have greater durability and longevity and let's you use readily available modern synthetic oils after the engines broke in. Great video, Good information here!
Choice is a wonderful thing, if they can no longer manufacture a flat tappet cam that is fit for purpose they shouldn’t be selling them ! Recently fitted one (comp) solid lifters, Europe, it’s what we’re used to, into sbf, no crazy break in procedure, just set the timing and let it run on fast idle, mild road cam with AFR 180 heads, no problem…. luck ? Don’t know, parts from the same source, pushrods, rockers etc, 16 iron lumps riding on an iron stick, how difficult can it be ?
We used a lot of Elgin Prostock cam kits. A CL1067PK flat is 488/234@50/107 intake and 508/244@50/117 exhaust and costs $320.36. A CL1135PK roller is 470/230@50/106 intake and 480/230@50/110 exhaust and costs $443.86. A CL1229PK roller is 538/234@50/107 intake and 540/238@50/117 exhaust and costs $564.12. You will have some extra costs for dist gear (if needed), cam button, and lifter spider and will have to drill 2 holes in an early, non-roller, block. They are good cams but like all later hydraulic lifter cams you will ned a 5W-30 or 10W-30 oil to get the lifters to bleed. It is not that expensive and your problems go away. Roller lifter failure is not like it was 30+ years ago.
I'm at a point where I need to pull my engine and would like to do the FT to Roller conversion. I could use some assistance on a cam. I want to be able to take advantage of the Edelbrock PN #60259 heads that are on the engine. Anyways this would be after the Holidays. Love the content you are putting out.
Add to the flat tappet side of the $ list the lifter bore truing and/or bushing to correct the misalignment problems. The basic question is how do you price for the inherent risk of flat tappet junk in 2023?
I'll be calling Monday for an estimate. 482ci aluminum block, Baer Block Motors heads, Precision Oil Pumps rocker stands and rockers. I'm in the market for a cam, lifter, pushrods, and spring kit. Thanks and talk to you soon Daniel.
Not having to worry about wiping out a newly built engine is worth the price difference easily. I would feel really dumb having to rebuild it twice than spending $500 more the 1st time.
cams in my experience go flat cause they overtighten the lifters in chevys. leave them just loost enough to barely tap . after 25 min at 2000 rpm ,adjust them , tighten till you fill a light restriction while twisting the pushrod. thats it. itd done. iv never lost a cam. now i run mobile 1 full synthetic 10-40 in mine , no zinc or any additives
Scat bbc forged crank with forged H beam rods and Ross forged pistons with king coated bearings 3k. Roller setup 1500. Doesn't add up but what you gonna do.
Now $/hp comparison. I always wanted to add some goodies but after watching some dyno comparisons found i probably wasn't going to get any back out of it in my application
@@pizzandoughnutspage7817 I've heard this , i must be a lucky one , but my springs aren't that heavy 230/575, 7 years on the lifters , new springs every spring .
The one thing that i can't wrap my brain around. If you are grinding all these cams and a roller cam doesn't have the complicated lobe angles to spin the lifters, then why does it cost twice as much? I understand the lifters being more expensive but why the cam?
This is kind of a one-off example that really does cost big money to go roller but I’m curious just how much it really would be: Have you ever machined / built any 12 valve / 6BT Cummins engines to take roller followers / lifters and rockers? Im curious what the real world actual cost would be for the machine work needed and the components….I know the billet steel roller cams are something like $1,400 but the rest I can’t seem to find a straight answer on….I guess I’m wondering if you could realistically put together a full roller 12 valve for under $5k if you started with a good, healthy running engine?
I went hydro roller 3 years ago. BBC morel hydro rollers were $950. The isky marine cam was $600. Thats a big difference vs flat tappet. SBC is alot cheaper I guess, right?
Your advice is good, Tnx. One question. Don't roller lifters really need 15/40 synthetic, where most dinosaurs revoled around 20/50 fosel. Will the exhaust valve train get hot with faster drain back or spin bearings because of early rod side clearance leaking out etc. Where will it stop i wonder. Mick from Au.
For anything that isn’t a small block Chevy it’s a fortune. A roller cam for a Chevy straight six will run you 700, another 575 for the lifters, another 140 for the specialty bit to grind down the bosses for the side covers, 50 bucks for a dist. gear. Did I leave anything out? We’re looking at 1500 plus taxes and shipping.
The difference between flat tappet and roller cam for my personal deal in my big block chevy was $800, but I used going roller as my excuse to go bigger, so really that's fine. Do I regret it? No.
Thank you for explaining this. How much for the lifter hold down spider tray thing? I’mI not sure how comfortable I am to drill and tap the holes in the block needed for that.
Moral of the story is most people don’t know what they’re doing. Great video nonetheless the less. Accurate and perfectly realistic. Someone who wiped out 3 cams may have followed all directions but guaranteed that 440 didn’t fire right off and be kept above idle or have light break In Springs installed and wiped any assembly line clean off while there was no lubrication. If you don’t know open your wallet.
I think the cost is worth it if you aren’t sending metal through your expensive engine in the event of a failure or bad break in, just peace of mind for me
😊 absolutely right, there is no reason to continue using flat tappet cam shafts. I have one it's a purple 🟣 shaft 292/509 hydraulic and never broke in. I pulled it out of the 440 and boxed it.
Question I have a 79 sbc block 30 over To go retro roller, what timing set do i use? Torrington bearing? Cam button? Cam will be under .500 lift. Weekender 73 vette. Any help is appreciated
On Fords (351w), would you recommend the spider retro-fit or going with link bars? I'm leaning toward the Gaterman's because I don't want to be limited to a sbc cam but have heard reports of link bar lifters being noisy. Thanks for any advice.
So how much would it cost to go roller in either my 345 or 392 International v8? I'm looking for maximum longevity and reliability with the best fuel economy possible from these thirsty engines.
i have a 79 460 and i know ford put roller cams in 460s in the 90s so is there anything special that has to be done to install roller bearings in a 460..i ask b/c im on a tight budget and dont want to deal with FT nightmares.
I guess I don't understand how literally millions of factory motors with FT cams had no problems. Is it because of bigger cams and more power in the rebuild motors?
I believe they found the anti wear additives in the oil was detrimental to the catalysts and O2 sensors. So newer oils are formulated with less since the manufacturers put roller cam in now. Use this oil in a engine with flat tappets and wipe lobes off the cam. Been there, done that, got the hat and the t-shirt.
No one would have a problem if all cars still had flat tappet. All new cars have rollers so they don't give a shit about old cars with flat tappet. Not a big enough market.
A lot of people are trying to get away with selling junk. Never had so many defective new part in my life. I can't assume it's good just because it's new. I check everything now
I've got a Melling BBC hydraulic roller cam based on the ZZ502 specs. I haven't gotten the lifters yet and hear different things about different brands of lifters. What BBC hydraulic roller lifter would you recommend for the street?
You are making a video about price and you don't really seem to know what things cost. Every time I go to by all the parts, it always cost more than I'm being told. Just saying.
Can you custom make a roller for a counter rotating Mark IV 454 marine engine ? The cams are pressed on a gear drive . No one makes them and I hate to rebuild with s flat tappet .
I’ve never gone this far bc of the money but what do you consider the limit for lift on a street roller not that I want to oust that far but for knowledge sake.thanks for your effort
Just going off of Comp Cams website:
Comp Solid Roller Cam
Cam: 11-717-9 $505.95
Lifters: 819-16 $587.95
Springs: 947-16 $484.95
Valve Locks: 612-16 $38.95
Steel Retainers: 722-16 $387.95
Dist. Gear: 12200 $143.95
Total: $2,149.70
Comp Solid Flat Tappet Cam
Cam: 11-613-5 $324.95
Lifters: 800-16 $278.95
Springs: 924-16 $154.95
Valve Locks: 612-16 $38.95
Steel Retainers: 741-16 $80.95
Total: $878.75
Difference of: $1,270.95
That $1,270.95 will pay for my converter and my rear end gears, with a bunch of change left over.
Isky's prices are a little different on their parts, but the final pricing comes in about the same.
Now add the cost of it not being a sbc you could add another 500 plus.
Early Hemi, a lot more. Ford Y block there are no roller lifters period.
He's giving his prices. Not comp cams.
Why are the springs and retainers so much more expensive for the roller? And why does the roller need a distributor gear where the flat tappet doesn’t?
The parts aren’t adding up. If you matched the other parts and only changed the cam and lifters the difference is much closer than you’re making it out to be.
I don't know how back in the seventies a small block Chevy with a factory Z-28 hydraulic cam and no special lifters lasted for 50,000 miles with the 11 1/2 to 1 pistons, double hump heads and a factory crank in it driven daily. Must have been lucky I guess.
In Australia the cam will cost you about $900 and a set of lifters is about $1200 and those are pretty much starting prices with better quality lifters costing much more. For small block chrysler, chev is always a bit cheaper. Flat tappet cam is around $400 and lifters around $200.
Don't forget distributor gear cam button and cover springs in head and so on
Your right mate, here in Nz roller lifters start at $15-1600
They should start calling Australia down over, not down under, cuz everything is over priced...
Exhange [0.65 before the bank adds its spread in the mix], plus...vat taxes are highly regressive/punitive - a growth killer. Throw 10% leveraged off import duty, and thats the lions share of cost difference. I support Australia making more go-fast bits [even if it gives the greenies a stroke]
I own a Pontiac, here in the States, my cost, is NOWHERE NEAR what Dan is sayin......he's trying to help, but you sir being an Aussie, and me trying to keep my Pontiac alive, WE are outside his window of cost.....yea, I poked at him for it, but this is a GREAT site, and he's a good dude....CHEERS Mate!!
Funny how times change. In the 1960's when I was growing up. The "common knowledge" was that roller lifters couldn't survive on the street because they required almost perfectly clean oil. Roller cams and lifters were considered "race only". I just finished overhauling a 3.5 liter Nissan engine that spun a rod bearing. At 160,000 miles and terrible maintenance, I reused the bucket lifters, they were fine. Something stinks in the supply chain for aftermarket American cars.
That said, life is too short and I agree that rollers are the way to go.
Back in "the day", spring tech wasn't were it's at today, the grind tech wasn't, lifters, etc. It wasn't really wise to run a race roller on the streets, it wouldn't last a week or two on a daily driver!
Great video for around 600 bucks thats a good deal for a roller cam set up ,and you can sleep at night for fear of flat tapper failure for sure
Very true!
If you loose a cam it will likely damage the pistons too. They may look OK but it will pack iron particles into the skirts. If you don't think so wash the pistons in water and let them dry. If there's iron in the skirts they will show up as rusts spots on the skirts.
Glad someone brought this up. I've talked to plenty of people who've seen cams wipe and one of the big tickets is the new set of pistons and rings and a hone, if not a bore as well.
One other thing is that you can probably get a better torque/hp situation out of a roller while keeping the idle vacuum the same, etc.
Well then keep them tight.
The best advice I heard about flat tappet cams was:
1. At least during break-in run an oil filter pre-screen (Moroso MOR-23845) and plug the bypass so all of the oil has to go through the filter.
2. Mark the pushrods and make sure they all rotate properly. If you see one or more that is rotating slowly or not at all, use your fingers to help get it/them going. If you can't get it/them going, you have to stop and figure it out.
Damn good advice !
But wait there's more:
1. To increase the chance of success, use a nitrided cam or DLC treated lifters.
2. Check for proper pushrod rotation at intervals throughout the life of the engine. For example, immediately after cam/lifter break-in, after the first 10 to 20 hours of operation (500 - 1000 miles), and at every or every other oil change depending on the interval.
3. A set of old valve covers with windows cut out makes viewing pushrod rotation less messy.
4. In some cases, to lessen the mess, pushrod rotation can be checked at cranking speed. Be careful. Don't let it go unless you're sure every pushrod is rotating properly. If you have to run the engine to be sure, do it. That's just how it is these days with flat tappet cams.
Just think of the one time price increase as an insurance plan that you only have to pay once initially, not every month... Thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights!
I’ve been using the Delphi HL66 lifters and haven’t had any issues with my FT cams but I’m still switching to rollers on everything because the price isn’t as far away as it used to be. Good video.
I've had good luck with a GM performance parts lifter that has a hardened tool steel foot Make sure you buy them from summit though not the Chevy dealership there too expensive at the Chevy dealership I think they're the same lifters they use in those high-performance crate motors for certain racing classes
@@carlpreston1680 only thing that changes is the quality of the pin that actually holds the roller. I found out through screwing up a lot of cheap lifters.
@@carlpreston1680 Its many many many yrs since you could buy real Chevy FT lifters esp a solid from a dealership. Never seen them on summit either, all discontinued.
What PN did you buy?
@@gordocarbo it's been a couple years since I bought them I'll have to see if I have the part number still , The same lifter at the local Chevy dealership was almost $400 for the set they were cheaper at summit racing
@@gordocarbo the summit part number is 12371044 but these are the hydraulic flat tappet
Plus, with a roller Vs. a flat tappet, if you don't like the cam or your other parameters change, just change the cam and reuse the roller lifters.
Exactly
I didn't want to scrap a 427fe so my only real choice was a roller. Some things are just too hard to replace.
Yep, and labor is expensive
Big body Buick!
My car was a 53 Century with a V8. I was 16 yrs old.
My father owned a 56 Buick Roadmaster. That was a Big Body Buick for sure. Needed a big car with 6 youngins in tow.
Enjoy your videos. Please keep up the honesty you have portrayed.
Not a gear head, but I enjoyed growing up with neighbors that were.
great points and great to see the receipts. I like to ask those that say roller is too expensive "but can you afford to build your flat tappet engine twice??"
Great point!
Same crowd that insists their cheap chinese heads with white box springs "are fine cause see my burnout?" Cant tell them a thing.
Cheap is that way for good reason. Most dont know what to look for anyways
As an antique car mechanic, my problem isn’t the cost (investment) in a roller setup, it’s the complete lack of roller options for say… Studebakers, AMCs, MGs, Triumphs, any old straight six, nailheads, anything made by anybody in the early to mid fifties, and most holdovers into the sixties, Willys, MEL engines, anything else I can think of that’s foreign with pushrods… the list goes on.
If everybody building a convenient American V8 goes to roller cams, that will likely make the quality of the rest of the lifters that we can’t do without even worse, because there’s even less demand for them. Maybe companies should spend a little bit extra per lifter or cam like they used to making sure they aren’t crap, and stop irresponsibly selling their dreck to an unknowing public. Instead of retrofitting an entire engine (even if I could), I’d rather drop an extra hundred or two on parts I can trust. Hell, I have to do it on the back end anyway, because I send everything flat tappet to a local cam grinder to check tapers and surfaces, and regrind if necessary.
What if the companies were actually held accountable, instead of us giving up?
You're not going to have any influence over the OEM's. Even the entire hot rod community together doesn't buy as much product as any of the OEM's separately. There is no one going to subsidize these esoteric parts with current production stuff. Flat tappet cams are obsolete, have been since the 90's. At best, you might find boutique manufacturers to do your lifter in something durable like tool steel or a spring steel or something. There might be a market here for someone, I don't know. Everyone I know is bailing out of the automotive industry, they're looking for a desk job working 35hrs/week getting paid to surf the internet or something.
@@EchoSixMike Yep, even basic engines from the big three started having roller cams installed in the late 1980's.
Far as I know OEM stopped making ft lifters decades ago when the retro roller craze started.
Now many want to run FT again and no good lifters to be found
Ive had a HR cam fail in 15k miles, roller lifters puke etc all aftermarket
Roller is no guarantee so many opt out and want to go back
Very informative video. I think the question is how much does it cost not to go roller. Thank you for your time.
Good question!
I think we have a reasonably clear idea. I'm wondering if my old motors that have been fine are time bombs and I'd best be swaping them over.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 If it broke in fine has been running for yrs bet you dont have reason to worry. Had ft go 200k.
@@gordocarbo Some of these are well over 200K, the couple of times I've been in them for bent push rods, lifter faces looked great. Even the flathead lifter faces looked good.
For decades we have been using rollers only on drag racing, road racing and street cruising. In the long term rollers are the same cost, never have to worry about flat tappet cams. Don't have to worry about ZDDP either !!!
Yup
good video, many builders refuse to build flat tappet motors for all the reasons you mention, not worth the aggrivation
Absolutely
Considering my current conflicts with a certain cam manufacturer, I believe you have got yourself a new customer. I'm in the middle of 2 engines right now and am about ready to order cams. I'll be contacting you soon.
Awesome, glad to help
The last time i built a FE was two yrs ago. I did have it apart this summer to basicly check it over becouse i changed heads anyway, but i reused the cam & lifters. But i used a crower flat tappet & i bought summit lifters ($60 bucks) & i have sevral sets of springs here in my shop so i was able to do the break in with soft springs. But it was all successful. Still running good today. That being said i would love to go roller. But i dont think flat tappets are dead yet. I plan on building another FE for a different truck of mine & im planning on flat tappet again. Mainly becouse of cost. And i havnt had a failure yet.........
Crower didnt have FE lifters? You got super lucky for those cheap ones holding up so far.
@@gordocarbo they are the same as mellings. All of mine hold up!
If you are building a SBC and have to use Retro rollers they are almost $ 1000 alone !!!
The price in the video are sbc so no.
I look at your web page and they are $445 that’s way cheaper than comp cam are they made by Johnson?
Of course everyone bases engine rebuild and upgrade costs on small block chevys.......well all of us dont have a chevy!!!!!! If you can retrofit my 385 series BBF with roller cam to duplicate stock use and stock heads and stock valvetrain for less than 900 i will send you my engine. Good luck finding a 112 lsa, 192- 204 duration .467 and .486 lift, 460 bbf roller cam, which in hyd flat tappet form is a stock equivalent replacement. 7.9:1 in these 80's fords is not anything but stock cam friendly. I dont need more power, just need reliability
We have them....
Delta Cam in Tacoma will grind that for you.
I'm sold..thanks for the knowledge, brother
Absolutely 💯
I've been doing this exact comparison exercise since seeing your most recent Flat Tappet issue video.
Absolutely
Factory roller block for the win
💯
I don't understand. It sounds like you are saying flat tappit stuff is just junk?? It's all I have ever put together and I have had no problems. And I am a amateur. Are people not lubricating things properly during assembly ? Just trying to understand. I have not built anything in a long time and I realize things change.
Thankyou for explaining the cost difference between roller and flat tappet cam components. Could you please explain what the minimum Engine Compression Ratio requirement is for a roller camshaft to operate properly. I look forward to reply, thank you sir.
@siliconvalleyengineer5875 not any different than a ft cam
What this video is saying is a roller from him is at least $1038.
Need better springs? Now it's $1238.
No timing set, no assembly lube, no gaskets, etc.
When someone says a roller is a grand or two this video isn't proof to the contrary.
It's not about the difference, it's about the total cost.
When a budget builder looks around he'll find flat tappet stuff so cheap that it will likely compel him to take a chance. Look at the Lunati Bare Bones stuff. Cam and lifter sets for under $170 with decent specs. Let's say they work 19 times out of 20 or even 9 times out of 10. Most guys will feel those odds are good enough.
Yeah, sum people are slow
I don't know what you mean by that.
You got out of the flat tappet business and you'd like everyone to spend in accordance with your decision. That's what it sounds like to me. The truth of the matter is that simply isn't practical for many/most people. I was doing nothing and ran across a SBC kit that was cam, lifters, timing set, assembly lube, oil additive and gaskets for $264. The last time I changed a cam in a SBC I got everything from a guy on eBay for $230. To say the difference is a few trips to the local watering hole or a handful of fast food meals is disingenuous. Put together a retrofit SBC roller kit that is somewhere near complete for significantly less than $1000 and you'll be saying something.
@@kd6tas You're also gambling that the flat tappet junk will live. Factor that risk into your pricing.
@@EchoSixMike
Maybe you saw the other comments I made here about things you can do to help insure success with flat tappets. In general I agree, if you can afford it go roller. Step 1 start with a roller block. To me retrofitting a non-roller is an expensive, un-natural act. Use your head. DLC treated lifers aren't expensive. Mark the pushrods and make sure they all spin properly, not only after break-in but at intervals throughout the life of the engine. Carefully consider your cam, spring and rocker ratio choices. Don't overdo it. You're more likely to succeed than fail. Nobody talks about all the flat tappet valve trains that work right. Because all you hear about are the failures, after awhile it starts to seem like they all fail. That's not true at all.
@@kd6tas number one thing to do is check lobe taper and lifter crown on flat tappet! 35% of failures is from that. Most of the failures are from improper lifter crowns.
I put a fing neo magnet in the bottom of the oil pan
I'm converting from a Solid Roller to Hydraulic Roller and have just moments ago sent you Mr. Daniel an email requesting your suggestions/advice regarding what I might need for my Street Rod. I'm hoping that I have given you enough information to supply me with the potential answer to my request. Thank You in advance for taking the time to respond to that email. Please note: I am in the market to purchase the requested items from Powell Machine Inc.
Definitely! Will get with u Monday
For me I find the source of information makes all the difference. When I look at what the big cam manufacturers recommend for my SLIGHTLY WARMED UP STREET SBC....THE COST DIFFERENCE IS OVER $1000. Obviously Powell Machine is offering choices that get the job done, and fit the average guys budget.
Where you get you info is more important than ever.
Absolutely!, ty
@@powellmachineinc3179 Your demo of refaced NEW lifters shows the poor machining in bright lights. I have about 4 sets of pre-2005 GM/DELPHI FT lifters and a couple of unused Comp Cams, same vintage. If I understand correctly...it's the lifter quality not the break in that's the problem. I'm going to use them on some mild street builds. But If I can do the roller set up for the price $$$ break you describe, I finally see a way to make the switch. Your videos have been the top on this subject, by far.
I run a 302 SB chev with a CROWER 636 lift solid roller on the street with Hi performance pin oiled lifters HIPPO - The cam kit with pushrods, springs, retainers, locks, cam button etc was about $1800. The hippo lifters were over half the total.
Bught their severe duty (pre hippo option) shaft rockers manley pushrods Isky billet sr cam. Yes it was frigging expensive but know better than to try cheap.
I wish I’d known this six months ago. The roller cam kits I looked at were $1200-1400.
The first roller I used was the deciding build for rollers. I'll never work with a customer that wants to cheap out.
I wish the big 3 would start making thier good ft lifters again!
If I used my go to Isky cam or a cheap PAW ssi hft Id use the GM lifters and never ever did I have an issue. Some builds I have no need or $ for a roller
My recent solid roller setup for sbc cost a ton well over a grand. Plus shaft rockers
The $$$ Pac springs I paid for...wound up being run of the mill comps, hello bent pushrods. Again.
I’m so glad I found this CZcams channel. This was a very informative video thank you sharing this. Just subscribed. Eddie Patterson, Silverstreet South Carolina.
Welcome aboard!
If you are going with a factory hydraulic roller block SBC truck engine like I am that came with a flat tappet but has the provisions for roller it's actually cheap. Here's what I've spent...
Delta Camshaft ground me a xr270-10 hydraulic roller Camshaft on a genuine gm core for $145 + $40 core.
Elgin hydraulic roller lifters are $112.95 for 16.
The complete kit from Summit Racing with the brace, lifter "dog bones" , and cam plate is $87.
I spent $180 on .600 lift Z28 springs that give you 130lbs closed with the damper removed, screw in studs, steel retainers and locks to eliminate the rotators etc.
The machine shop charged me $195 to cut and tap for the studs and cutting guides and assembling not including the unrelated valve job. So I know it's right. It's really not too terribly expensive for alot of applications. I've had good luck with flat tappet cams, knock on wood. I use Delta Camshafts and their lifters with oiling modifications and I'm at 3 so far no issues. But I like to utilize a roller cam anytime I can. They make power and have greater durability and longevity and let's you use readily available modern synthetic oils after the engines broke in. Great video, Good information here!
Choice is a wonderful thing, if they can no longer manufacture a flat tappet cam that is fit for purpose they shouldn’t be selling them ! Recently fitted one (comp) solid lifters, Europe, it’s what we’re used to, into sbf, no crazy break in procedure, just set the timing and let it run on fast idle, mild road cam with AFR 180 heads, no problem…. luck ? Don’t know, parts from the same source, pushrods, rockers etc, 16 iron lumps riding on an iron stick, how difficult can it be ?
We used a lot of Elgin Prostock cam kits. A CL1067PK flat is 488/234@50/107 intake and 508/244@50/117 exhaust and costs $320.36. A CL1135PK roller is 470/230@50/106 intake and 480/230@50/110 exhaust and costs $443.86. A CL1229PK roller is 538/234@50/107 intake and 540/238@50/117 exhaust and costs $564.12. You will have some extra costs for dist gear (if needed), cam button, and lifter spider and will have to drill 2 holes in an early, non-roller, block. They are good cams but like all later hydraulic lifter cams you will ned a 5W-30 or 10W-30 oil to get the lifters to bleed. It is not that expensive and your problems go away. Roller lifter failure is not like it was 30+ years ago.
Definitely
I'm at a point where I need to pull my engine and would like to do the FT to Roller conversion. I could use some assistance on a cam. I want to be able to take advantage of the Edelbrock PN #60259 heads that are on the engine. Anyways this would be after the Holidays. Love the content you are putting out.
Just shoot us a email, powellmachineinc@gmail.com, we can recommend a package
Add to the flat tappet side of the $ list the lifter bore truing and/or bushing to correct the misalignment problems. The basic question is how do you price for the inherent risk of flat tappet junk in 2023?
Exactly!
How come in the good old days the solid lifters seem to last with no problem..😊
Good job. I couldnt have said it better myself.
Right on
I'll be calling Monday for an estimate. 482ci aluminum block, Baer Block Motors heads, Precision Oil Pumps rocker stands and rockers. I'm in the market for a cam, lifter, pushrods, and spring kit. Thanks and talk to you soon Daniel.
Not having to worry about wiping out a newly built engine is worth the price difference easily. I would feel really dumb having to rebuild it twice than spending $500 more the 1st time.
Absolutely
Funny, I talk to racers who quite often wipe out roller cam stuff as well.
I love the way you explain you point I learn something new from every video thx
cams in my experience go flat cause they overtighten the lifters in chevys. leave them just loost enough to barely tap . after 25 min at 2000 rpm ,adjust them , tighten till you fill a light restriction while twisting the pushrod. thats it. itd done. iv never lost a cam. now i run mobile 1 full synthetic 10-40 in mine , no zinc or any additives
Just curious How did engines straight out the factory flat tappet engines back in the day not suffer a high percentage of failures?
Manufacturing was much better, and spring pressure was lower, and oil had the correct blends
I’ll be getting ahold of you soon.
💯
Scat bbc forged crank with forged H beam rods and Ross forged pistons with king coated bearings 3k. Roller setup 1500. Doesn't add up but what you gonna do.
Now $/hp comparison. I always wanted to add some goodies but after watching some dyno comparisons found i probably wasn't going to get any back out of it in my application
My last roller swap using Comp Endurex lifters ,pushrods and Pro Magnum rockers and Comp 954 springs was a little over $1300 , and worth every penny
I’ll never use Comp rollers after repeated failures.
@@pizzandoughnutspage7817
I've heard this , i must be a lucky one , but my springs aren't that heavy 230/575,
7 years on the lifters , new springs every spring .
Awesome video very informative
Glad you liked it
I think dog bone roller lifters are the key to making roller cheap
Definitely
The one thing that i can't wrap my brain around. If you are grinding all these cams and a roller cam doesn't have the complicated lobe angles to spin the lifters, then why does it cost twice as much? I understand the lifters being more expensive but why the cam?
This is kind of a one-off example that really does cost big money to go roller but I’m curious just how much it really would be: Have you ever machined / built any 12 valve / 6BT Cummins engines to take roller followers / lifters and rockers? Im curious what the real world actual cost would be for the machine work needed and the components….I know the billet steel roller cams are something like $1,400 but the rest I can’t seem to find a straight answer on….I guess I’m wondering if you could realistically put together a full roller 12 valve for under $5k if you started with a good, healthy running engine?
What is the simplest timing cover/thrust setup without spending a bizzilion dollars? For gen 1 sbc.
We have a cover the like 20 bucks, roller thrust is about 14 bucks
wow thats a walletfull!!
Its no wonder the era of the junkyard LS is still going strong!
Lol, a gasket set for a ls is 350.00....
Just find a block with a roller Cam in it in the first place.
I went hydro roller 3 years ago. BBC morel hydro rollers were $950. The isky marine cam was $600. Thats a big difference vs flat tappet.
SBC is alot cheaper I guess, right?
Excellent video.
Thank you very much!
Your advice is good, Tnx. One question. Don't roller lifters really need 15/40 synthetic, where most dinosaurs revoled around 20/50 fosel. Will the exhaust valve train get hot with faster drain back or spin bearings because of early rod side clearance leaking out etc. Where will it stop i wonder. Mick from Au.
No
@@powellmachineinc3179 ok. You guy,s have done it and tested
Springs 300, p rods 200, cam 400, cam retainer 80, 80 dist gear
1100 or so
man, you made this video for me didnt you?!?! quoting ford FE!
Lol
For anything that isn’t a small block Chevy it’s a fortune. A roller cam for a Chevy straight six will run you 700, another 575 for the lifters, another 140 for the specialty bit to grind down the bosses for the side covers, 50 bucks for a dist. gear. Did I leave anything out? We’re looking at 1500 plus taxes and shipping.
We are working on inline ford and chevy roller cams and they will be economical
Well shucks let me just put you down in my little black book!!!
Seriously let us know when they become available. I just want a mild street cam that will offer years of fun daily driving.
The difference between flat tappet and roller cam for my personal deal in my big block chevy was $800, but I used going roller as my excuse to go bigger, so really that's fine. Do I regret it? No.
I should say that I already had the springs for the flat tappet and thats the only reason my conversion was over the 600 difference youre saying
💯
Another perspective, with your numbers, is the roller costs TWICE as much.
Totally agree it's better to only spend the money once though.
That's fine for a 'popular' engine like SBC that EVERYONE makes parts for , but what about the oddball makes and older stuff?
Thank you for explaining this. How much for the lifter hold down spider tray thing? I’mI not sure how comfortable I am to drill and tap the holes in the block needed for that.
The kit is about 100.00, we have them in stock
Ordered, thank you.
Moral of the story is most people don’t know what they’re doing. Great video nonetheless the less. Accurate and perfectly realistic. Someone who wiped out 3 cams may have followed all directions but guaranteed that 440 didn’t fire right off and be kept above idle or have light break In Springs installed and wiped any assembly line clean off while there was no lubrication. If you don’t know open your wallet.
I think the cost is worth it if you aren’t sending metal through your expensive engine in the event of a failure or bad break in, just peace of mind for me
Yep
What about a cam retention method?
A roller thrust kit 8s around 15 bucks on our site
Very interesting!
Glad you think so!
😊 absolutely right, there is no reason to continue using flat tappet cam shafts. I have one it's a purple 🟣 shaft 292/509 hydraulic and never broke in. I pulled it out of the 440 and boxed it.
Thanks for sharing
Question
I have a 79 sbc block 30 over
To go retro roller, what timing set do i use? Torrington bearing? Cam button? Cam will be under .500 lift. Weekender 73 vette. Any help is appreciated
Button is mandatory, thrust bearing is optional
Springs, pushrods, rockers
On Fords (351w), would you recommend the spider retro-fit or going with link bars? I'm leaning toward the Gaterman's because I don't want to be limited to a sbc cam but have heard reports of link bar lifters being noisy. Thanks for any advice.
It's irrelevant, exactly the same lifter unit
@@powellmachineinc3179 Thanks..Link bar lifters VS standard lifters with small base circle cam doesn't seem like the exact same.
So how much would it cost to go roller in either my 345 or 392 International v8?
I'm looking for maximum longevity and reliability with the best fuel economy possible from these thirsty engines.
I'm not aware of a roller core for that engine
@@powellmachineinc3179ok, guess I'm out of luck then. Thank you for the reply, Sir.
Rollers. Make. More. Power. Less. Friction. It. Ain't. Rocket. Science. People. Listen. To. The. Man. Thanks. Bro
Right on
Add cost of flat tappet redo and Roller becomes obvious choice.
i have a 79 460 and i know ford put roller cams in 460s in the 90s so is there anything special that has to be done to install roller bearings in a 460..i ask b/c im on a tight budget and dont want to deal with FT nightmares.
I'm a new sub ,what can you all do for amc engines like a 90 over 304 with 360 rods and aftermarket cylinder heads?
We have amc roller cores on the shelf, shoot us a email
Why are so many people having problems with FT camd nowadays? I don't remember it being this bad years ago?
I'm not a racer, but am interested in gas mileage. How much of a difference would a roller assembly make in terms of MPG?
None
You want better mileage you'll need a shorter camshaft like a 4cyl vs an 8cyl.
I guess I don't understand how literally millions of factory motors with FT cams had no problems. Is it because of bigger cams and more power in the rebuild motors?
I believe they found the anti wear additives in the oil was detrimental to the catalysts and O2 sensors. So newer oils are formulated with less since the manufacturers put roller cam in now. Use this oil in a engine with flat tappets and wipe lobes off the cam. Been there, done that, got the hat and the t-shirt.
Several companies sell oil specifically for older engines with flat tappet camshafts. Hope this helps.
No one would have a problem if all cars still had flat tappet. All new cars have rollers so they don't give a shit about old cars with flat tappet. Not a big enough market.
Many ohv engines are flat tappet
A lot of people are trying to get away with selling junk. Never had so many defective new part in my life. I can't assume it's good just because it's new. I check everything now
I figure people who say $1,000 they are figuring they already have a cam and lifters.
You went full roller , you always go full roller :)
It's all relative, lots just don't understand
Can a Jeep 4.0 inline 6 be retro fitted with a roller cam?
No one makes roller cores for that engine as for as I know
@@powellmachineinc3179 Thank you for replying sir, I was afraid of that unfortunately
This is why I only do LS motors
Lol, definitely
What do you think about the new Comp Cams DLC coated flat tappet lifters?
I haven't seen them in person yet, but.... "real " dlc coating alone cost 4-5 time's as much as they sell for, so..... idk
I've got a Melling BBC hydraulic roller cam based on the ZZ502 specs. I haven't gotten the lifters yet and hear different things about different brands of lifters. What BBC hydraulic roller lifter would you recommend for the street?
we use and sell gaterman
@@powellmachineinc3179 Thanks. I'll ck them out.
You are making a video about price and you don't really seem to know what things cost. Every time I go to by all the parts, it always cost more than I'm being told. Just saying.
Maybe you should buy from a different source....
Might as well go roller rockers.
So for a BB 440 mopar, cam button and roller lifters are fine without any oiling feed mods or ?
As far as I know, we have converted quite a few with no issues
Can you custom make a roller for a counter rotating Mark IV 454 marine engine ? The cams are pressed on a gear drive . No one makes them and I hate to rebuild with s flat tappet .
Can do, just expensive
@@powellmachineinc3179 how expensive
Do you have any 250 6 inline chevy roller grind around the 525C Iskenderian available?
We are working on adding I6 chevy and ford cores, probably a couple months
I did not see a list of lobe profiles on your web site?
No, we are working on it
love your channel but a word of advice cover up them phone numbers on
your white board.
Noted
Just curious, what is it that causes a roller cam to cost more than a FT cam? Just the cam is itself?
The core is more expensive, the lifter and springs are also more expensive
I’ve never gone this far bc of the money but what do you consider the limit for lift on a street roller not that I want to oust that far but for knowledge sake.thanks for your effort
IF I CALL YOU AND ASK FOR A CAM KIT, CAM LIFTERS,SPRINGS,RETAINERS,LOCKS ETC ITS STILL 1000 WITH TAX NO MATTER HOW YOU SEE IT NOT 600
You clearly missed the entire point