Camshaft Crisis: Solution/Resolution
Vložit
- čas přidán 2. 05. 2023
- See NEW Note at the bottom of this description.
The "SOLUTION" to this flat tappet camshaft destruction issue is "QUALITY PARTS". Plain and simple!
It's NOT the valve spring pressures, it's NOT lifter oiling in the engine, it's NOT the zinc levels in the oils and it sure as hell is NOT from sloppy engine assembly procedures. It's 99.9% SHIT quality lifters that are not heat treated or machined for crowns properly. When these lifters are manufactured properly (as in the past), there are NO failures!
Please DON'T talk to me about zinc ppm's in "oils", PROVE IT! Wheres your PROOF? A pretty corporate "LABEL" on a bottle or jug of oil is your proof? Or from a "PAID" corporate shill promoting it?
You are a corporate "dupe and toady" stating that nonsense.
PLEASE...PROVE ME WRONG!.........PROVE rat540's oil testing is wrong!...or... put a "top hat" on, a "bone" through your nose, rotate twice counterclockwise while facing east between 7 & 8 am on days not ending with a "Y" when you sacrifice a chicken and scatter it's remains around your engine building stand as a "solution" to this issue. That should work!
Rat540 oil analysis link:
540ratblog.wordpress.com/
NOTE: 2021 Ford 7.3 OEM Roller lifter wheels de laminating, bearing failures and camshaft wipe outs. So...It's just the "OLD SCHOOL & STONE AGE" Flat tappet engines eh?
"Aftermarket" camshaft/hydraulic roller lifter failures coming to an engine near you?.......Tick tock!,....tick tock!,.... tick tock!.....Remember folks, all it takes is "1" out of "16" lifters!....Marketing lesson "101"......IT'S THE OILS!!
Link: • ANOTHER FORD 7.3L Godz... - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Nice video series! I agree- there’s NO Good Reason these flat tappets should be failing. This has been going on for 20 years now. Everyone says you gotta use a roller cam. I say that’s BS. Not to mention- those are failing in their own ways as well! Comp Cams has been scamming people forever. They bought the most advertising back when we still had magazines. Every damn engine build had Comp Cams in it. I had a mild one go out. I did everything right. Good oil ect. No high spring pressure. They wouldn’t do a thing for me. Way back in the day- we never broke them in right- and they survived just fine. Now Comp has their new Diamond coated lifters… supposedly fixes all the problems?? Time will tell. Shouldn’t have to Diamond coat 100 year old technology to get it to work
Lol, those guys are a bunch of B holes over there.
That "diamond" coating is just a nitride coating. It`ll wear off too. Later rather than sooner, but it`ll wear off.
They cant make them to OEM 1970s quality because it would cost 300 Dollars per lifter....nobody would pay that much for "swiss made" tappets.
Comp Chinese Steel crap
I feel the frustration you have.
I have the same frustration.
So does everyone else.
The cam and lifter companies know the truth and they are all hiding the truth.
The companies blame the installer and the machine shop.
All of the dozens of excuses the companies use to blame everyone else.
But never except responsibility.
The oil, the Zink additive is not the problem.
Because you can use 18.00 a quart of racing oil , break in oil and still have the same problem.
Thanks for sharing.
Take care, Ed.
Especially comp cams.
Hi Ed and thanks for the support. We are all in the same boat and it is everywhere. The part of this that really pisses me off is that it takes the same amount of green house gas emitting "energy", the same amount of " resource materials" and the same amount of "man power and labor" to manufacture "garbage" as it does to manufacture "quality" components! Where is the economic, environmental and social "advantage" in producing "garbage"? Someone somewhere feels "accomplished and successful" in the short term by fucking over the consumer? This "mentality" is a serious "illness" and leads and ends in one direction only, the destruction of our culture and ultimately, the destruction of our species. The "proof" is rearing its ugly head everywhere we now "choose" to look. That's why I "closed" the video with the issue that I did!
@@metalmaxmopar9520 I regrind my old lifters. Only problem, sometimes the lifter won't pump up again. But they are not going flat.
Massive frustration. In doing some reading, I suspect there is some either/or analysis. Maybe its both: some are bitten by bad lifters, some by oil, some by both. API specs lead to ASTM tests mostly, and in the case of the "IVA" test [astm 6891] that revolves around camshafts, the spec engine is... a Nissan KA24E, and the tech is different: no lifters to spin in the bore, but a pair of shaft mounted rockers utilizing a single head mounted cam & followers [tech reminiscent of what's in a 240z for example]. There's an IVB test for lifters: 8350, which if I recall has a pass/fail hinging on mass, which avoids the issue of crown [or loss thereof] completely. The oil industry no longer has a testing scheme valid for traditional flat tappet engines in my estimation - they market for manufacturers, and their specs, for the millions of engines they make every year. How many of those specs find sunlight in an API certs and how many are locked down in non-disclosure agreements I couldn't guess, but the overly lawyered can screw up anything - that's how Gates wound up hooking up with IBM many decades ago, bringing the world version after version of the Blue Screen of Death..
I continue to dig... next mission is history: what test specs were in place pre-1994?
I recently built a 455 Pontiac engine for my 70 GTO with a NOS Wolverine Blue Racer cam & lifter set made in 1990.
No issues. Engine runs strong. I wouldn't have considered building this engine without that NOS cam & lifter set because of today's issues...
I just installed a NOS 1989 Edelbrock Perfomer Plus cam with ansieht NOS Perfect Circle DANA lifters it works fine
@@Haffschlappe Congratulations. I still wouldn't build any engine today using a flat tappit cam & lifters unless it was NOS.
Let me know when you reach 24k miles and we'll see how your cam & lifters are doing.
I remember back in the day when I built my 306 small block, all new internals, cam, lifters and rockers. Put all together filled it with 10w 30, fired up and drove away with no “break in”, drove around varying speed and rpm for an hour, shut it down let it cool, fired it up and hit the drag strip, 15 years no issues.
todays chinese crap sucks
Here is what Smokey Yunick said back in 1987: The last and possibly the best advice I can give about lifters is to use the exact type and style lifter specified by the cam manufacture and follow his recommended break in procedures to the absolute letter. If you have a cast iron camshaft, you must use a lifter that has a steel cap on the base. If using a steel cam, you must use a chilled iron lifter. Modern racing profiles generate incredible valve rates. This results in a great deal of stress between the lifter and the flank of the lobes, and it's very easy to wipe out a new cam in just a few seconds. It's especially important to put a good coat of extreme pressure lube on the lobes before you put a new cam in place. You don't have to goop this stuff all over the place, but you should use your fingers to massage into the lobe as HARD AS YOU CAN. If you are using a flat type lifter, I think it is a good idea to buff the base until it is really smooth. We have also found that if you're breaking in a real monster cam, it helps a lot to have the lifters surface hardened with something like a nitriding treatment, but this is going to be kind of expensive for most racers. When all is said and done, you're going to have to be some sort of witch doctor and very handy with a spring compressor to break in a serious racing cam successfully, and if you screw up even the littlest thing, you're going to rebuilt the engine before the paint on the block has much chance to dry.
I apologize about commenting on oil, but the modern retail oils have way too much detergent in them (for emissions reasons) and will break down any additives you add to them within seconds or minutes. All the oils you showed are no good for break-in, even with additives. You must use special break-in oil for flat tappet cams. Learned that one the hard way.
Driven BR30 is what I use... and you can't go wrong listening to Smokey...👍
Yeah I use Driven too, not just their break in oil but their full line of synthetic engine oil (depending on what weight oil the engine requires)
I'm a car guy. Not on your level but I do love engines. Your comment on the forbidden subject was enough for me to subscribe to your channel. Thanks Thanks for all your work.
This gentleman has been doing it for a long time and being very honest competition cams went to China
Suffered from coincidence and died from suddenly.
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
Thank you sir for clearing this up once and for all. I’ve been building Chryslers for years with all kinds of oils and a separate zinc additive, never a problem and guess what, I’ve always used Hughes lifters…not sure why I chose them to begin with besides liking their cam profiles and maybe their prices were good. I even did a forbidden no no on my own 440 by reusing 1000mi used Hughes lifters on a brand new cam, 10 years later still look great. Keep up the good work! Mopar to you.
Thanks for laying it out there like it is. This is exactly what needs to get out there. Clarifies why back in the day when most of us were in our late teens and twenties we knew enough to be dangerous and were swapping camshafts out in the back yard and running the hell out of them and no failures..unless you slung the rods out of the engine missing a gear or not letting up! Carry on. We love it!
Exactly!!!! I changed a dozen cams before I turned 18. I did 2 of my own and every kid I knew wanted one too. Zero failures and I was 16 years old and took no precautions.
Me too!@@BBBILLY86
Wow, you really had a lot to say in your description box, couldn't have said it better myself.
This is coming from a Chevy guy, I like your presentation and truthful, to the point objectiveness. My high school auto students built 3 motors this spring. The small block with a Howard's setup failed. Comp Products told a friend of mine they are at about 40+% failure rate and wouldn't even sell him a flat tappet for his BBC. Other student ran an Elgin setup it lived. Only difference was we broke it in at 1800 RPM and used 30 weight non detergent. The other SBC is an Elgin setup is going on the start up stand shortly my only change here is to run it on the stock springs through the break in.
This whole camshaft thing is really disappointing! Have a 400 SBC with an Isky cam and Crower direct lube lifters in it that will be broke in next. The JUNK they are making has taken all the fun out of building motors with my students, the next generation of hot rodders. Complete buzz-kill. Student from last year on a Comp set survived break and a summer of fun. Cam/lifters failed last month. Does big pharma own stock in lifter companies? Thanks you have a new subscriber.
Many people NOW are coming around to this same opinion. To remedy the flat tappet problem, many turn to high quality rollers(there are garbage rollers too) and have better luck. Some say because flat tappets represent less than one percent of the aftermarket, manufacturers don't care too much for the effort to produce under strict specs. Great content here.
This guy right here and knows his stuff you got my vote you make sense you showing the proof you got to spend extra money to get good quality which people don't want to do anymore what competition cams it's all about everybody wants a competition cam because they've been doing so good and then now it's all about marketing and let's do it cheaper
Rock solid. There's always a struggle to get at facts, and it often boils down to what we read. I know of no way to fully verify a depth of hardening process except by destructive testing, and no home gamer is equipped for that. Also, iso 9000 is not a quality control system, its an assurance system - one step below. I continue to be amazed athow many corporate types remain unaware of this fact. Any business outsourcing anything needs to do random qc work or problems await.
all iso9000 does is just extreme documentation of the processes even if its shit.
I cannot believe you re-used that Comp Cam. That would have been the first thing into my scrap pile. That cam caused the wear pattern on the Johnson lifter.
Re watch the video and listen! I DID NOT use a Comp camshaft. I "re used" the "zero" miles, 40 + year old NOS Cam Dynamics Stage 2 cam with a "NEW" set of Johnson's "Hy-lift" flat tappet lifters to prove a point.....that it's NOT THE OILS!... it's NOT THE CAMSHAFT!........ it's the GARBAGE Comp lifters. Even on the "broken in" C/D cam with the "new" Johnson Hy-lift lifters, ONLY the number 5 exhaust cam lobe and # 5 Exh. tappet showed slight wear when previously, 4 of the NEW Comp lifters initially broken in on that "NEW" NOS C/Dyn. failed with the # 5 Exhaust lobe /Comp lifter showing the most severe wear. In this 2nd break in/application, these items were/are "sacrificial".
It's called TESTING!
I "INTENTIONALLY" broke every engine building camshaft rule in the book for this test. I made my point and that was the whole motivation behind this video. If it was the OIL(s)...."logic/reason" states that ALL 16 lobes & lifters should fail, if it was the cam, more than one lobe should be wiped out with an "edge to edge" wear pattern across the nose ESPECIALLY when using a "NEW" set of lifters on a "broken in" cam. Same for the lifters....there should be more than "one" damaged Johnson Hy-lift hydraulic lifter. There is NO MORE DAMAGE TO THIS C/D CAM on this 2nd test than there was on the first break in. Why? .......simple....the initial break in had shit quality Comp Cams hydraulic lifters!
P.S. I'm NOT running this C/D Stage 2 cam in ANY engine until I regrind it and it will get NEW lifters! Why?....because I don't rip off customers!
Seems around 20yrs ago when I first heard the words China core and lifters I knew it wasn't just the oil.
My motor oil labeled "now including chunks of real metal to wear off pesky lifter crowns!"
Thank you for your critical thinking and speaking the Truth on all subjects.
Truth is as hate
To those who hate the truth.
Found your channel today. Just hearing you speak and how you have conducted your investigation shows your years of experience and expertise. Although it is on unpleasant terms i have truly enjoyed watching this saga.
I have very little videos and none of my building process but all the vehicles in my videos ( some roller some not) have comp cams and lifters in them. I sence the day is coming that i will suffer the same fate as you and others have. On a side note when i first noticed this issue i used the comp pro magnum hyd flat lifters. My line of thinking was they are twice the price so probably get sold half as often. It worked out for me not sure if it is a fail safe plan though.
Thanks for the quality videos, quality workmanship and quality logic.
Yes, back in the day for me was the early 80s. We never had any issues like this, even with a half assed cam break in... I am planning a mild 440 Dodge build, and have worries about the cam and lifters. I learned plenty here on what to watch for, and who to spend my money with. And i will have my new parts measured and tested before i run them.
I like your style brother. Conclusive evidence based on PROOF !!.. Awesome job.. i really appreciate your honest efforts and research. Thank you. 👏 this camshaft crap is outta hand.. thanks for doing your best to share with the rest of us. 👍 Subscribed ! 🍻
Competition cams is going cheap because they're doing so good so they don't care about their quality anymore
Tecs are great at blaming the installation.
I believe it's more about penny pinching to give their investors more and more profit.
Like many businesses, they get bought by vulture capital money grubbers, who then strip mine that business exploiting the reputation established by previous ownership.
Weird to hear about and sad if true. Worked at a place that built winning off road race engines and they used comp cams camshafts (jesel or morel lifters, manton pushrods, modified jesel rockers, xceldyne valves, psi springs...).
It's been a handful of years since I built a race engine. Makes me wonder if I should use a Jones cam on the next dirt track flat tappet.
Hearing you speak - Reminds me of AvE from Alberta ! Great work
Take the camshaft out, have it (the one lobe) reground and re-hardened is a ridiculous proposition for the average garage builder. This is another example of poor quality of these non-roller cams. I got comps new DLC coated lifters and I'm hoping the lifters and cam will survive the break in this time.
Have you run the DLClifters yet???
*The ending is gold*
As AvE says, its 'marketing wank'
Thank you Vicus. Some have been critical of that comment but I don't care. Truth is the truth!..... and with the evidence coming out daily that this is a "Bio weapon" (revealed by the patents), how long will it take for the "conformists and the compliant" to go bat shit crazy with rage?!?!
@@metalmaxmopar9520 Who knows? But I'll love to see it
I agree with you 100%. I’m glad you put this video out. Thanks people need to be educated.
what's frustrating is the fact comp or any other manufacturer won't acknowledge whats going on! It's like they don't even care to fix this issue.
They are owned by Chinese investors
Great video, I totally agree with the tragedy that has taken place and I’m greatly concerned for the future! (In general). Also for my own soon future for the engine I’m putting together. I have an 87’ 318 with the (302) closed chamber heads that I did some porting and deshrouding on. The reason I decided to tear it down in the first place was because I found that the camshaft had been walking back and forth due to the timing chain bolt had backed off. I pulled the motor and the bottom end looked great so other than cam bearings I’m running it as it was. Unfortunately when I initially began this process (almost 2yrs ago) I chose a comp cams kit; lifters, cam, valve springs, retainers, etc. Since then I have witnessed all of these cam/lifter issues, and I’m really apprehensive about using what I have. The included instructions discuss using the outer spring without the inner spring for cam break-in before installing them both together (which is a real pain in the ass, years ago I never remember having to deal with any of this. Makes me wonder if comp is just making “much to do” as an excuse for the issues they know are going on. I’m throwing an engine run stand together to make sure everything is correct before I put the engine back in my van(not ideal) to maintain major work. So if I check the crown on all my new lifters (in the very box you displayed), which I haven’t yet done…and they check out ok, would you run it or should I send this junk back? Not even sure I can at this point 🤦🏻♂️! Gotta love when projects get set back.
I prefer the rope seal as well. I have a few of the OE asbestos type rope seals I bought a long time ago. I think the whole 'failure' problem is from what I think you mentioned in an earlier video, the new lifters. I also bought a ton of NOS lifters on ebay a long time ago I've been using and haven't had any problems. I would still use an NOS set over these 'new' ones. They're all over even now. You could probably pick up a set in the $150 range easily. That really is something that even the supposed 'best' lifters made now have varying chamfers and machining tolerances as wide as they are. The old ones I have and inspected don't have any visible chamfer that you can see by eyeballing them. That crown seemed really high too. Most of the NOS lifters I've checked were closer to the 1.5 thou range. I think too much is as bad as not enough because it needs to match the camshaft otherwise the contact pattern is off. If I remember from checking the cam needs a little more because of the angle the tappet is offset from the center of the lobe, in order to get the correct surface contact for rotation. Maybe 2-2.5 thou. I agree with your description. There's a lot of 'noise' and supposed 'experts' out there. Even if you didn't have the technical facts a little common sense goes a long way.
About 36 years ago I broke in a few cams and did everything WRONG as far as the oils and springs etc and never lost a cam. Used regular oil, no additives, just Isky Revlube on the cam. Left in the 333lb springs. Why are all these people still having 'failures' that do everything right? Only thing you can't control is manufacturing of the parts you use.
I have total respect for you you've been doing this for a long time we're going to have a holes that are going to be coming up with an excuse because of competition cams went to China
Have you ever had the lifters hardness tested? Just curious. Thanks for the video, good work
This is a great test for lifter machining. I am terrified to install the 274H I got from Comp and thinking of just dropping the $1200 it costs to upgrade to roller because of all the failures. Maybe I can perform the same check with my magnetic dial indicator and see where the lifters are at.
Thanks.
I really enjoyed your video!!!
Thank You from Romania.
15:00 mark = 🔥🔥🔥
Also appreciate your methodology 👍
Great info!! Sudden subscription thanks!!
I'm new to the car space and would like to do a stock refresh on an Olds 403, new bearings, rings, cam and lifters all within original spec. A first time rebuild for a newbie is a daunting task in and of itself, but the lifter failure epidemic is alarming. Any advice? Thanks.
Hi was wondering about the lifter fit to bore have you checked that?
Salute to you, sir. o7
I'm about 300 miles (plus plenty of idle time) into my mild SBC truck build. I did use a Chi-Comp cam but went with GM Lifters and Driven break in/hot rod oil. No issues.
Absolutely agree with the end of your video. I'm seeing a general retardation/incompetence of a large chunk of workers in a wide range of jobs. I wonder why... 🤔
GM doesn't make lifters, Delphi is the OEM who makes liftesr for them. I believe they are made in mexico and have been for maybe the last 10 years. Also don't believe that the Delphi "hard bottom" lifters are gods gift to camshafts. They still do fail and i have had a couple of sets fail on my in the last 2 or 3 years. In my opinion the problem isn't just a lifter issue or a cam issue. It is a combination of the 2.
@@jessecompeau4370
Yeah, that tracks with just about everything else sold here in the states.. overhyped junk.
Hopefully I can catch it quick if it happens.
I'd be interested to know if you have checked the expensive racing flat tappet lifters such as the Trend lifters.
I didn’t know who you were till about 5 yrs ago but have come to value your info and have a couple questions you if you would be inclined to answer about flat tappet cam and lifters for gen 1 Chevy motors as I have no confidence in todays products but have a few cams from approx.the 90’s and 2000 or so.one is a slightly use crane 1st gen z/28,the other trw/speed pro that’s new.the crane looks to be made of good material and other I see no reason for concern but wonder what might be done to them both before use and what lifter you would use.i was thinking Chevy and not the cheapo’s nor the $400 lifters but a bit lower.whats your thoughts?thanks
What does it cost to regrind and harden and who does it?I appreciate your info. but I am a back yard mechanic not a pro but I try to do my home work and have a small library.can you tell me how you go about hardening and regrinding I mean who does it
Been using comp 20 years now with absolutely no problems, just done 5 comp cams and lifters in the last 8 weeks with absolutely no problems, all of them was the extreme energy line. I only use Lucas break in oil, has 3,000 ppm of zinc. All break in oils no matter the brand has around 3,000 ppm of zinc that is key. New oils has to much detergents in them that kills the zinc on break in. After break in i use Rotella t4 10w30, have for almost 30 years.
One other thing that was done to check for taper was to install the cam and from the bottom while using a dial indicator and a long pointer screwed in, move the camshaft back and forth just enough to measure the taper. You'll see usually. 003". If not, send it back. You may check with a mic but it can be more difficult.
Also, an engine or two have a lobe here and there which are offset purposely for more rotation. Also, turn the cam over with the lifters installed and check that the lifters spin. If not, it can be lifter bore angle. You can reface the lifter to say 1 degree and they usually spin fine. Usually there is 1 or 2 lifters that can give you trouble. -- Sometimes the Chevrolet engines will fail the rear lifters for the reason of they are behind the rear counterweight, in an area which gets less oil thrown up to lube those. Only other thing is to have the cam heat treated. That's always been an option at Comp. -- The cams are iron of course which has a recipe for hardness and wear properties. Cast iron could be described as mud with air holes in it. It's going to hold oil just due to the properties of the metal. Remember, lifter bore holes never stay round over time. They usually taper some and rattle the lifter more or less. We install a more forceful cam lobe shape into a somewhat worn lifter hole, possibly with inferior lifers, and a pinch between two parts could start one little burr in one or the other parts and grit begins to float on very fast moving pieces of metal. It's started, and, it's over.
Polish your lifters and around the edges. You should tape up the top of the lifters oil holes. If they have a feed hole, disassemble the lifters and clean and then boil. Rinse in cold water and wipe with WD40 to protect the metal. In NASCAR CUP RACING, we had all the lifters phosphate treated to speed up the process of brak in. It was huge work and enough for 1 employee every day, all day. Remember, an average of 4-8 engines per race were taken to the track back then. Some for rent, but many were for experimental. --- So, look into your block as deep as you can to verify your chances for a successful ending. It's all about not being in a hurr and using soft break in spring force. Take the time.
i`m in nl, where in canada can i have one lobe fixed,
very interesting stuff! subscribed
I always thought that blaming the oils was complete bullshit to begin with(its not THAT sensitive ffs). I figure its a combination of improperly machined cams (little or no taper) and shit metals/machining on the lifters.....speaking of roller lifter failure the BRAND NEW Ford Godzilla engines are all flaking the plating off the rollers at 35,000 miles like clockwork and wiping out brand new engines.
It looks like there is a wear ring around the intake lifter on cylinder #2 near the the face of the lifter. Does that indicate a possible worn lifter bore, so the lifter is rocking? Thanks.
Great video just confirmed what I always suspected. Comp Cams more like Copper Cams
Lol I just had a chuckle about making a copper engine in my head
Been using VR1 high zinc oil and Rhoads Lifters for over 40 years. 320-340 lbs open spring pressure on every break in. Never lost a cam. I measure and inspect everything before it goes in. Prevents a lot of issues. Never took the jab. So I can’t speak to those failures either. But the mis-grinding of lifter faces destroying motors is a real thing. And not having zinc in the oil won’t cause immediate failure. But I’d be scared to go long term without it. After 40 years that bottle of VR1 makes me feel warm and fuzzy. And it’s kept the mill in my Pontiac spinning through thousands of passes since 1989. As close as I can come to proof it’s good oil. But it all may just be pure luck. 😅
On my second Powerwagon, just dreading the thought of lifter failure. Bought the 15 used and regret trading it in, for a 18. It's having to use the 0-40 Pennzoil that concerns me. Probably a good choice for Canadian winter, I just don't want to jinx myself. And it idles alot when it's -30C, 2 cycles on command start, other than that, it's limited. I knew it would be a pig on fuel before I bought it, but I hope the 3rd Gen hemis - yes lifter problem, but they are mass produced.
Hello, Thank you for doing these videos. After this experience would you still build an engine with a flat tappet cam? would you use a Hughes cam? I'm building a street 440 and debating using a hydraulic flat tappet or going hydraulic roller. Also I have NOS old TRW 2355 .030 pistons, are these ok to use in a street engine? Thank you.
Thank you!
Black is white , or is white black ?
I was taught to run break-in lifters and rings, use break-in oil, 2,000 to 2,500 rpm for 20 minutes and to never let it idle..
Well said!
I think today we have a combination of problems, mostly workers not qualified or not giving a damn about their jobs. Parts coming out of China. The results from the pandemic.
I used to work for a well known steel producer and retired in 2019. I was a fleet mechanic there. We had several GM pickup trucks driven by inspectors and shit disturbers, 305 and 350s. We were replacing cams and lifters on at least 2 trucks every week with some as low as 12.000 miles on them. GM would not warranty any of them because of all the idle time. Out of 24 hours they likely idled for 20 hours. I caught one guy revving the snot out of a truck until the valves floated because he thought it was funny and not his truck. I have to wonder how many jobs he's had in his lifetime.
We also had a few Ford trucks with 302 and 351w engines in them with NO cam failures at all, but would wear the rocker arms sometimes. Transmission failures were common because of heat. They would bake everything inside.
A friend at a GM dealership suggested that we use a GM product called EOS for pre lube and in the oil in the GM trucks.
After using that product our GM camshaft problems went from 3 or 4 trucks a month to 2 a year. I don't know what was in it but it sure worked for us. It's not likely you can even buy it any longer.
You can also use a Mirror or Window they are flat
440 source also sells rope seal
True story. Good video.
that's the products I used, and those are the products I did not use written on the bench, me and my car run fine. 😅😁🤠
I've found that the lobe placement positions in relation to the lifter bore c/L are way off
Tested cores from the 70's through to now
Lifter crowns and possibly metallurgy are negligible as well
Is this video showing the Same Camshaft with new Huges "Hylift Johnson" lifters after Break-in & discovering the #5 Lobe & Lifter wear issues ? ....Or is this Video showing a Totally New replacement Camshaft after Break-in with Hughes "Hylift Johnson" lifters ? ....Thx for putting video up....
It's the same NOS Cam Dynamics cam shown in the previous video's with 16 "new" Johnson Hylift F/T lifters. This is what I wanted to prove......that the lifters are the issue, not the camshaft. It was just bad luck that the (1 of the 4 ) "Comp" lifters damaged the # 5 Exhaust lobe to a point where the taper ground into the lobe was "compromised" and ended up wearing flat (edge to edge) with these new Hughes "Johnson Hylift" F/T lifters.
Notice that the "NEW" lifter in the # 5 Ex. location rotated, did not immediately fail and still had a 0.002" crown on it! The wear damage to the "lobe" was caused by the previous Comp lifter that affected, then damaged the new lifter. Because of the "scoring" to that new #5 lifter face, it would have eventually stopped rotating and ultimately failed in due time. All the other 15 "lobes and lifters" (including where the other 3 damaged Comps lifters were located) indicate typical/excellent wear patterns.
Regards, Tim
👏 Bravo
so true 100% !
You are right on point re "marketing"! Right on "point"
Heh.
Agree. It isn't the oils. And the detergents would not affect how the ZDDP would work.
How do you seal a pan gasket on a 360 the rear rubber seal do you put the rubber seal on then the cork gasket on top of the rubber ends or under the rubber rear pan seal? The cork seems to short it dosent touch the main cap
Hi drifter. Make sure you have the right pan gasket set. The LA 360 has a smaller diameter #5 main cap and the LA 318/340 end seal won't work/fit on a 360. You can look up the differences on "Rock Auto's" web site. Assuming you do, the rubber #5 main cap seal goes on first, put a light bead of RTV between the main cap and the rubber seal. Put a dab of RTV sealant on the ends of the rubber seal to seal it to the block. The oil pan side rail gaskets (usually cork) go on next and they can slightly overlap the rubber main cap seal. Again, seal the "overlap" area (block side and pan side) with a dab of RTV sealant. Sometimes, depending on the gasket manufacturer, the side rail ends can be a bit too "short" or a bit too "long". If too short, fill in with some RTV, if too long, "trimming" the ends that meet the cap rubber seal may be necessary for the correct fit. (this also applies to the front timing cover.) To finish it off, run a bead of RTV on top of the rubber seal(s) to seal the oil pan to the #5 cap and the front timing cover. Clear as mud? Good luck. Regards, Tim.
@drifter - the best sealant is the black stuff sold by Mopar. It’s definitely worth the extra couple of dollars. I discovered it when I worked at a CPD dealer back in the late 80s.
also, if you have a 5.2(318)/5.9(360) magnum, they both use the 360 oil pan style(size).
Comp Cams makes complete garbage I am rebuilding my rebuilt 440 again . That’s how I know
If you do send that cam out who would you send it to, I have a 512 stroked 440 with a comp cam and lifters, I may pull this a part and check it and see what I find. Any help would be grateful.
Hi Bill. Where do you live? I'm located in southern Ontario, Canada. I have a crank and cam grinder in Concord, Ontario that does this type of work for me. If you are located in the USA, call up a local "reputable/reliable" machine shop and ask them who does their crank grinding and if they do cams. If you have nothing "local", you may have to call/send it to one of the custom cam grinders like Bullitt, Jones, Powell's etc. Regards, Tim.
@@metalmaxmopar9520 Thanks Tim, i'm down here in florida, U.S. I have been staying on top of this lifter problem and I'm getting concerned I may pull this a part and inspect them, thanks for the info.
Delta Cam in Tacoma Washington. I've gotten over two cams from them. Never had a problem.
What is the name of the company that makes that rope seal again.
www.manciniracing.com/bheremarose.html
You can't argue with the dial gauge.
Amen 🙏 Brother
Shars has a great price on a granite surface plate, 8" X 12". UPS charged more for shipping than what the surface plate costs. The plate is a perfect size for automotive purposes.
Commenting about the oil, now from evidence but from experience, that castrol mineral is good stuff
Competition cam it's all about marketing that's what they're doing made in China
Edelbrock and Lunati too
Love the rant! Right there with ya brother! Just wanted to clarify, not to be a Karen, I use Johnson Hylift lifters and I think that is what you meant. Johnson lifters make roller lifters only. Just to clarify and make it easier for fellow gearheads to find the best parts. Also wondering if you have experience with quality roller lifters. Would be interested in your opinion on which ones are best. I believe Johnson lifters are made in USA.
There are 2 Johnson lifter companies David.
Thanks David for the correction. These are "Johnson Hylift" F/T lifters that I am using. As far as your question on "quality" roller lifters, I need to know the "context" of this question. A "solid" roller lifter for a competition/racing engine? A "hydraulic" roller lifter for a street engine? One thing to keep in mind and very few builders talk about is the roller lifter wheel "diameter" and whether the axle shaft uses needle bearings or a bushing based on the valve spring pressures. (IE:) a Larger wheel = better lifter stability and less side loading in the lifter bore. This is limited by the lifter bore diameter. Chrysler's have an advantage due to their 0.904" lifter diameter vs the "stock" Chevy's and Fords. Is oil "pressure" feed to the roller wheel needle bearings/bushings for maximum lubrication and component life? Nothing is simple David!
Here is a link to a really good article that may answer most of your questions.
www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/bearings-vs-bushings-the-great-roller-lifter-debate-explored/
Regards, Tim.
Though this was only a fairly Recent issue of Lifter & Cam lobe wear Failure until I just Inspected the factory Original lifters pulled in 1972 from a 1970 Plymouth 426 street hemi with Only 10,500 miles running.....1st Inspected Lifter Face has a perfectly Centered, smooth flat 0.660" wide by 0.003" deep Depression......The 1970 street hemi used a factory Oem 320# Open single Spring with Damper.......The motor was run primarily with 10W30 or 20W50 Pennzoil with Very frequent Oil & Filter changes......How Close to Catastrophic flat Lifter Failure did I come & Why during 1970--1972 time frame of quality American Metallurgy components & High ZDDP Zinc content Oils ??
The one variable I see is the block machining that cannot be checked with simple tools. How much lifter bore clearance do each bore have? The last 400 block I had the bores bushed had considerable mis located lifter bores.
Something on the ZDDP in the oil. When catalytic converters came about car manufacturers discovered that the cats were getting fouled (rendered ineffective) by the metal additive in the oil for the cam & lifters. They had to come up with a solution that would allow the cat to live for at least 100K miles. Simple solution, remove the metal additive. But then the cam & lifters won't last, oh the dilemma! Enter the hydraulic roller cam which every modern engine now uses Chrysler started using them in 87 in the 318 engines then in 89 for the 360. Logic dictates that they would not have started manufacturing hyd roller assemblies for no reason because they are more costly to make. I read an article by a Chrysler engineer that explained it like this: Lay a deck of cards on a table then run your hand across them spreading the cards under your hand as you go. The zinc additive works like that, constantly supplying layers of cards for the hand to slide over. But the metal wears out and you have to change the oil to replenish the zinc additive in the oil. But if you are into conspiracy theories then Your explanation will work. I recently rebuilt a 360 Dodge engine for my little camper van (Class B camper). I was real nervous about the cam/ lifter thing. I was torn between re using the old lifters & cam since the lifters all had a good crown on them. Engine had 91K miles and was in good shape but I wanted it to be reliable. I decided to have the cam reground into an RV profile by a cam grinder on the west coast. Half the battle won because I knew the core was a good one. Then they supplied lifters that they had been having good luck with. So far about 9,000 miles & no problems. Re-used my old springs due to the lack of replacement springs for the exhaust valves that have rotators on them. Flat tappet lifters have to have a specific hardness to match the camshaft material. That requires strict quality control measures to maintain lifters that won't fail. Manufacturers know that the future market for flat tappet lifters is limited so they are not very interested in quality so part of the problem is junk parts. By the way I have a set of small block lifters made by Melling and they came from Mexico.
With all due respect Larry, this "history" lesson given here I have know for more than 2+ decades. My educational/employment back ground is metallurgy, QC and NDT (Non Destructive Testing) and I have been building engines since the late 1970's. There is a lot more to this camshaft failure issue than just "zinc & phosphate" additives. Testing engine oils;
540ratblog.wordpress.com/
The vast majority of my engine building is mild to Hi Performance based, so "rotators" are tossed straight into the scrap bin!
{ with induction hardened valve seats and quality exh. valves, there is no need for "rotators", they are just added weight. In my experience, this additional "mass" located at the top of the valve stem adds to the "bell" shaped wearing of the valve guides. In the past, "Nine times out of ten", 318/360 heads with rotators needed new exhaust valve guides when I rebuild them. Simple mechanical engineering rule 101....MASS is NASTY!..... and only adds to valve train harmonics and wear issues.That's the reason nobody made/makes a rotator replacement valve spring. These automotive "engineers" are not always that sharp you know! }
Those "stock" spring rates (especially thermally cycled "used" springs even with extensive shimming) are so weak that most engines would experience valve float regardless of the camshaft grind starting around 5000 RPM. Great for a "stationary" engine driving a water pump or an electric generator but not enough road/interstate RPM "insurance" for my comfort range.
I am continuing with my engine building/testing and I will be doing videos in the near future on "breaking in flat tappet" camshafts WITHOUT the zinc additives (Lucas/Comp/etc) or the zinc blended break in oils {ie. Joe Gibbs "Driven"}.
Lets see where that gets me....I think this is putting ones money where ones mouth is!
@@metalmaxmopar9520 Since the 70s? I built my first engine in 64 & have been building them since with only a couple of failures. Rotators? I would have liked to toss them but then you have to locate a valve spring that will work with the lowered valve spring height when installing a non rotator spring retainer. The valve lock grooves on the rotator valves are in a lower position than the non rotators. Don't argue that point, I have measured many of them and you can't swap one for the other. I know that a valve spring could be found to get the proper tension but then you end up with an aftermarket spring with unknown metallurgy and a shorter installed valve spring height. Same problem as using aftermarket lifters so I kept the original parts. So far, so good. I have rebuilt heavy duty engines that had rotators and stellite valve seats and exhaust valves with sodium filled stems. They were used to extend the valve life on industrial & truck gas engines that would be running at near full throttle for lengthy periods of time. Check out the old 413 industrial engines. By the way the valve guides on the 360 were not ovaled and I'm not having any problems at all with valve float at highway speeds in excess of 70 MPH. I'm not disagreeing on the quality issue but part of the issue is because the manufacturers know that the market has a limited future. Also, most of the market is in the high performance field and they can always use the excuse that there is no warranty on race components. An easy out for them. There is a serious problem with aftermarket parts now. Currently I'm in the process of replacing an aftermarket AC compressor that only has about 6,000 miles on it. The mechanic that I used for decades for front end alignments retired mainly because he was tired of doing the same job 2 or 3 times over due to aftermarket parts failure. You do what you want but if I'm breaking in a new cam I will continue to use ZDDP additive, Lucas oil additive and anything else that might help, things like breaking in with soft springs.
@@larryhutchens7593 I won't argue with you about the (stock rotator) exhaust valve lock groove height as I know this is an issue. It's a great reason not to use them. My question is with your experience Larry....Why even have this battle?
My/A solution to that rotator exhaust valve "lock groove" height is so simple and a No brainer.....use 340 or non rotator 360 exhaust valves (stock 1.60" Mopar or Melling: V1307 ), 340 valve springs (Mopar Perf: P4120249 or P4286813 - general "mild" performance) and "stock" standard retainers and 4 groove locks. You get 8 good valves, less weight, better springs rates without extensive wear, reliability and peace of mind.
These were "Tech Tips" straight from Larry Sheppard/Tom Hoover printed in the Direct Connection/Mopar Performance Race bulletins published by Chrysler starting in 1974. "Economically boosting your 318/360 for performance using 340 parts". {340 Cam, V/springs, intake, windage tray, baffled oil pan}. For $25 bucks a copy, there is 5 "lifetimes" worth of knowledge in those books! I've bought every Engine/Chassis edition since they were published. I've done this swap countless times. Anyway, for less than $200.00 in parts or "half" that if you can find good "used" exhaust valves with usable margins .......its a total win/win.
That's why I did not name my business: "Poverty Engine Rebuilding Service". "Frugal is frugal" to a point, but then it's grief creation!.....Whats that old saying?...you only get what you pay for!
@@metalmaxmopar9520 As for the non rotator valves: The machine shop I use didn't have any used 360 non rotator or the correct size 340 valves (kinda rare in used condition). I did have a set of 318 non rotator valves and a few (3 or 4) non rotator ex valves that were a size in between the 318 & 360 size. Slightly smaller that the 360 rotator valve size. New replacement parts? You need to understand my reluctance to install aftermarket parts due to quality issues. I will trust a used factory part over a new aftermarket unit, even MoPar parts. My son ordered a MoPar double row timing chain set a couple of years ago and the quality was horrible. The machine work was terrible and who knows what kind of metal it was made of or where it was made. We decided on a Cloyes unit. I had the same dilemma choosing a timing chain for my RV engine. Valve springs & valves? Who knows where they are made. Turkey, India, Brazil? I once got a set of main bearings for a 3.9 V-6 that came from Brazil. Looked great but had some trash just under the shiny stuff that scratched a freshly ground crankshaft. Several tiny little pieces of some sort of grit embedded one of the bearings that couldn't be seen. Recently had to replace the thermostat in the RV because the last one was opening rather erratic. Can't remember where the first one came from but the new one was made in Israel. I decided to replace the thermostat while I had the failed aftermarket AC compressor. When replacing the idler arms one of them (a MOOG brand that I had in the past trusted) wouldn't even fit in the chassis properly. I had to grind some material off to get it to fit. Another option I had was to get a pair of Engine Quest heads that have the beehive valve springs. One big problem, they are no longer made in Australia but now come from China and the castings are horrible. They would be OK for a classic car that doesn't see many miles but on an RV? Replace the springs with something that has better spring rates (more tension)? Wouldn't that make the lifter situation even worse? I have been searching salvage yards for a set of older 360 heads but they seem to be unobtainable. Most are in late 70s thru 80s pickups & vans which all have the exhaust rotators. Practically any engine made for unleaded will have them. You build engines for a completely different service than I do.
@@metalmaxmopar9520 i think youll have good luck on your experiment. i use stp oil treamtnet and valvoline regular 10w30. the stp oil treatment doesnt even have much zddp in it, but i use it because i like the film it leaves. is it a good or bad thing? i dunno.
It's not roller bearings in the rollers failing it's the motor oil😮😝🤣, We are so far past common sense and thinking for ourselves it brings tears to my eyes. Believe what they tell you on the commercial OR ELSE 😡
P. S. Make it a small (mRNA). BY THE WAY IT'S JUST A COINCIDENCE JUST ASK THEM.
I would of never reused that cam with new lifters!
No sixties engine was broken in with multi weight oil . Straight 30 or thicker it’s a fact
I had a cam and lifter lobe fail after 25 minutes. Comp cam, lifters and the springs for that cam. Low lift, sub .500. It was a 351m. Went full hydrolic roller lifter and rockers after that. Comp wouldn't answer the phone after being on hold for 4 hours, they closed. Bought a Howards roller cam an steel roller rockers. Been fine since.
Most all cam grinders get the lifters and cams from China, does that tell you where the problem comes from? Very few grinders are left in the US.
Just kinda liked this Video until the MRNA end..
Then i loved it!
Spot on with everything your saying.
Junk manufactured lifters and cams and junk injections..
Vr1 saved my engine when i lost oil pressure so thats why i use it.
MRNA injected into livestock so to introduce it to the unwilling hoi polloi , good info on the lifter machinations. Tuned in for the next installment.
i just dont see that working. cooking the meat will destroy the mrna.
If you have a lathe or mill, you can also make yourself a flat surface for inspection as well.
"put a "top hat" on, a "bone" through your nose, rotate twice counterclockwise while facing east between 7 & 8 am on days not ending with a "Y" when you sacrifice a chicken and scatter it's remains around your engine building stand as a "solution" to this issue. That should work!" - How dare you insult my engine building practices!! LOL 🤣
I'm changing my hat to a bowler!........with a pink rose between my teeth......while I do the "Locomotion".....Grand Funk Railroad's version of course.......I'll let you know how that works out!
Thanks for the smile man!
@ 11:30 onward I think your dial indicator doesn’t move in the center of that lifter meaning that there is a flat spot there. Find your dial test indicator and check them again.
Yes, there is a "flat" spot there. That's the measured result from the ONE "damaged" Johnson Hylift lifter from the #5 cylinder exhaust lobe after running for more than 60 minutes. I wanted to prove/conclude that it was NOT the lifter "crown" going "bye, bye" due to poor heat treatment and/or poor lifter face machining. This lifter was damaged by the camshaft lobe wearing flat (edge to edge). That camshaft lobe (#5 exhaust) was previously damaged from using the first set of Comp lifters even though it measured up with a 0.0015" tapper. I show all this in the previous videos. That why I marked (paint daub) were the previously "damaged" Comp lifters (4 of them) were located in the block. The other 3 (lifter) locations indicated an excellent rotational wear pattern on the lifter faces as did "ALL" of the other Johnson Hylift lifters.
@@metalmaxmopar9520 I missed this. Very good observation from you both.
MM, please make a summary and update in description!
I use your videos to teach. Gen Z are actually really alright. There's a rejection of the current hyper-tech cars. The kids want easy to work on cars. EV is so dead Ford sent a desperate man to sell the "Mach E" to Jay Leno and the cringe salesman shit was lambasted in the Comments.
The only company I am aware of that is making excellent, quality lifters is Johnson.
I could be wrong about this. Seems to me the common denominator in all of this is the overseas manufacturing of everything we buy. Just my opinion and observation. Have a good day everyone
What's a "thow"?
Ahhh......you're a metric student!! It's the "Imperial" measurement system of "inches" divided into thousands. A "thou" is 0.001 inches in length. Roughly half the width of a human hair.
I understand your frustrations...
What was your break in procedure? Straight 20min- breaks?
Break-in valve spring rate?
How did you set the lash-those are hydraulic or solid?
Valve train geometry?
Did you check your bind height?
Are your pushrods all straight?
There are many parts and settings that can result in lifter failure/cam damage/ failure.
Good luck & God Bless
Watch my other videos on this topic Bob, you will get all the answers to your/these questions and how this all started.
Ahh this guys is from Ontario. Explains a lot. Sorry to hear that. I hope you do well enough that you can move out of that area.
I wonder what your spring pressures ? During wear in process.
12
i can tell you its not the oil for one simple reason: i use stp oil treatment on my cams. turns out, theres almost NO ZDDP in it. ive never had a good set of lifters go flat.
oil testing, there is another good professional on you tube out there "The Motor Oil Geek" he is a lubrication specialist. I agree as many machinist show lifter machine quality is crap , terrible surface grinds
Thank you for the info, I'll check him out.
Each of those oils shown are fine.