Widespread Lifter Failure Part 3
Vložit
- čas přidán 8. 07. 2021
- In this video Ken wraps up the conversation with lifter failure and offers a way to possibly help you if you are having the same problems that so many of us are having. This will, hopefully, be the final video we do on this subject.
I am 32 years into the machine shop business I also spent 17 years as chief engine building instructor for Roush-Yates power and performance engine program without getting to much into my journey with flat tappets I am in 100% in agreement with you I understand all the extra machine work for cam tunnel and lifter bore bushing I’ve done all that hundreds of times there is a percentage of flat tappet failures that are because of improper break in and improper oil spring pressure Ect it does happen but we have done thousands of flat tappets with great success the cams never went flat sometimes we didn’t even Rev up the engines for break in mainly because in the early days we didn’t know what we were doing not one failure zero in the last 5 years we have had dozens correct oil correct procedure correct spring pressures still the cams go flat not sure who your friend is that says the parts aren’t to blame, have him contact me his take on this is not going to stick to me
The issue if Rockwell hardness is a joke why should I halfto check every part for hardness when I paid for correctly hardness in the first place
Yep, I agree! We paid for something we aren't getting! I stopped buying for the big box "corporations" and now buy only custom ground cams and lifters. No problems since!
I am just getting started on the 4th cam in a row. After watching your video after others on this subject there is a real quality control (QC) problem all based on GREED.
If anything the QC and product reliability should have increased, not decreased. Comp Cams is owned by Edelbrock. Call Comp Cams and find out who answers. They moved from California for profit. In Tennessee you pay low wages, no protections, do what you want. What attitude does that create? Everyone seems to be owned by a large corporation whose only interest is profit at anyone else's expense. How else does this happen. They are just like the politicians.
I needed to watch your show before I go and finish this job again. I am hoping I have the new cam delivered today. I am now almost a month without my only transpo, a "69 Chevy van with a 4-bolt main 350. I am 76 and tired of doing this over and over along with the high expense even though Summit Racing is excellent at backing up what they sell. Thank You Summit Racing for not making this totally insane. Now I am sure this is a product problem, specifically materials and quality control.
How do they expect to stay in business?
You are rock solid in your thought process and procedures. Manufacturers push their equipment and tooling to the limit. They buy materials that will save money. All I'm saying is there are many aspects to a failure! We are one and are responsible for what we do! Builders are not the only aspect to a failure. Your videos are excellent and does us all good. Thank you.
Our local engine shop is seeing flat tappet cam/lifter failure , even with the most well known cam company's cams and lifters . Before covid they had built 1000's of circle track engines and did not have cam/lifter failures . What is causing the problem is evident ....parts quality
I can't wait for the new content on motors. I really really appreciate you taking the time to teach this. Thank you. Don't worry about the frequency it's worth the wait and more so because your videos do have a lot of information. I'm greatful. Build them tough!💪
I want to thank you for taking out your time to educate the ones like my self who rather learn something than to be entertained I'm sure you get plenty people that down grade your content I want you to know there's plenty others that appreciate you taking your time to do these videos I thank you
Great, and very informative video! Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time.
SK Machine, We found in our shop that if the cam lobe taper is less then the lifter crown the lifter has a tendency not to spin. Also we had 440 that had 4 lifters that would not spin on one side. The lifter bores were not true. When boring them for bushings using a fixture you could see it with your naked eye. The original cam was not wore. Also you will notice engines with cam retaining plates have much less failures then a floating cam. Harmonics from a junk timing chain will also contribute to break in wear. The biggest problem is making sure the lifters are spinning when turning engine. If not correct the cam location. or lifter bore. All high lift cam engines done here get bronze bushings blue printing the lifter bore location using a BHJ fixture.
I believe your opinion is spot on with what's going on, just look at the 2021 Chevy trucks lifter issue.
Thank you for your time
Great information Ken;
I can easily agree with you from your previous videos including this third. When I was younger (‘70’s) I’ve changed many engines some hot rodded but many of the blocks came from general engine shops. We had few issues with them even when parts were removed and swapped from other engines. The engines in stock configuration usually gave very few issues and for its purpose ran strong, so I can relate to what you’re saying. Also, for the other fellow discussing blue printing the engines I can also agree since it will relieve all stress related issues that may surface but not everyone is going to want to pay for blue-printed engines and especially us older fellows who remember what we used to do before, feel poor quality control on the lifter has gotten the best of us lately. My last engine build was in 2016 so hoping I missed that quality issue window and I’ve been reluctant on any new engine builds on older cars since then. Thanks again Ken. vjg 🙂
My son and I have a machine shop and we are hands on workers we have bleed down problem on lifters roller and flat tappet it is the worst we have ever seen in my 55 year career
Thank you for reminding folks that checking cam tunnel vs lifter bores is a critical build component to not cheap out on. I have forgotten how many "cam swap" stories I've read over the years and funny enough... I don't ever recall the authors starting with block aspects. Maybe I missed it? Assumptions, assumptions...
Odd things have been happening on occasion. Off center/axis crowns, bad crown radius, bad ra surface finish, embedded stuff/gouging/galling from poorly dressed grinding equipment, cam lobe tapers poorly matched to crown radius, and in the backround... old blocks with shot lifterbores & worse. A dingleball hone might get surface looking "good" but it has zero hope of correcting out of round issues or staying away from taper if a bore needs corrrection. Oil? Its own special topic, and... how many us can investigate the quality of oil received vs the build before firing it up? Chemical testing does not prove mechanical limits, and api specs can "pass" a product on market, yet fail the needs regarding old school flat tappets - 90 microns is about 0.0035", and just half of that lost to a lobe is already game over, because the taper takes the hit. Its worth noting the purpose of break in oil is increased wear through reduced protection: effectively behaving as a burnishing agent somewhere between superfine lapping compound and an oil purposed for real protection against working loads IF time limits are not exceeded. But where to chart lobe lift, mass, and spring pressures to define time limits for any oil used? Did Detroit ever do this to themselves back in the day? I'm thinking no, not a chance.
Had a remaned big block chev installed in a RV in 2016 in 2019 I had it fail, lifters collapsed and wore off lobes on the camshaft. I had it rebuilt at a shop , reputable machine shop, and now 2022 I have now had the same thing happen again. 3 of the lifters are 3/16 of an inch shorter than the rest and lobes of the cam worn down. At first I thought it was a builder problem but after seeing this set of video's from you , I lean heavily toward your opinion. I'm rebuilding this one myself thinking at least I would be sure that everything was done right. Of course i have already bought new cam and lifters [ hydrolic] , now I wish I had spent the extra and bought roller lifters and cam. THANK YOU FOR YOUR DETAILED VIDEO'S CHEERS Steve h.
I installed a retro roller from Howards cams, one lifter bleeds down after a few days of sitting. I ordered everything from Howards. Cam, lifters, pushrods. I used springs, guide plates, and rockers from Comp. Springs were tested by my Machinist for proper seat pressure and all that. Rocker arm geometry was checked, pushrods were ordered to length so no miss matched parts. All the math added up! Greg Kell my machinist and personal friend said the same thing about lifters. He's built 2000+ hp race engines for over 30 yrs. I think he would know. Bogies Muffler & Machine. A small shop here in Alabama.
That's a weird combination.
@@johncholmes643 whats weird about the combination?
@@fragman21
Muffler and machine shop
@@johncholmes643 I get you now. Greg runs the machine shop and his brother Lee runs the exhaust shop. same building different shops at each end.
Powell machine has done videos on CZcams checking and regrinding lifters. It’s the lifter machining
Watched all 3 of your videos. I have built a 360 Dodge for my class B camper. I was aware of the lifter problem long before I did this engine and contacted the machine shop that I use. His reply: it's a big gamble. He has had mixed results & tells his customers as such, doesn't have any solution. The engine I was building (before the pandemic) had flat tappet lifters so I was concerned. The engine had 90K miles, mostly highway, so it was in real good shape. I even considered re-using the old cam & lifters rather than gamble on new stuff. I decided to send my cam (an original factory one) to a very reputable cam grinder & had an RV grind put on it. They sent me a set of lifters that came from a supplier that they had good luck with. That was the best I could do. Anyway, I broke in the cam & lifters following the time honored method & used a break in oil. The instructions on the oil said not to put more than about 400 miles on the engine with this oil. Did that, changed oil & filter, added 1/2 container of ZDDP additive & a pint of Lucas oil stabilizer. The engine has a little over 500 miles on it & so far so good. Only problem: on an irregular basis one lifter will bleed down when the van sits for over a week. Pecks for a while before it pumps up. Doesn't always do it so I'm assuming the one lifter has to be in the valve open position at engine shut down. Engine has fairly soft factory valve springs so perhaps I will luck out. Still it is a concern. Now for the scary part: what if suspension & steering components made in these foreign countries have the same problems with quality control? Kinda makes the lifter problem seem small potatoes. Thanks for the video, needed to be done.
It's damn near impossible to get anything made in america any more.
Appreciate your knowledge sir.
The whole zinc phosphate in the oil thing kinda goes out the window when you look at all the old cars and pickups still on the road that are running today's oil without adding anything. I've put 50,000 miles on an 81 Dodge pickup 318 over ten years, it's been run on whatever oil is on sale, when I remember to change it.
I also remember reading about the Ford 2.3 liter Pinto motor's development. They've got that goofy cam follower, doesn't spin like a lifter. Right off the bat they were wearing out, the fix was in the oil. Ford specified an additive which all the oil companies incorporated into their oil. Now it's been like 40 years since I read that, no longer have the book but as I recall the additive was zinc and maybe phosphate.
I firmly believe this a machining and metallurgy probably we're facing today.
I've had hood luck with Ford 2.3 litres. Minimum maintenance and no failures. Seems like a smart design to me. Same arrangement as a Chevette.
All this motors your referring to are low per motors with non aggressive cam love profiles & much less spring pressure too that can live on todays oils with lower zddp level.
It’s when your running mild to hotter aftermarket ft cams& lifters with more aggressive love profiles & much higher spring rates too that the situation where todays oil with lower zddp gets you into problems even with properly mfg’d ft cams & lifters.
If you use poorly mfg’d lifters & or cams with oil that has proper zddp lvl or todays oil with lower zddp you can wipe a cam out easily.
This is coming from my personal 1st hand experience wrenching & building motors (sbc & bbc being the majority) for 50yrs do have a good background to pull from.
I have installed many oem stock & aftermarket perf cams with yet to have 1 ft cam iv’e installed fail during breakin or yrs later down the road I’m aware of.
Installing & running old school ft cams isn’t rocket science but if you overlook any 1 or 2 of the important details installing or breaking in a ft cam (esp with more shredding love design & higher spring rates) that’s when you get into trouble.
When I talk to people that had a ft cam failure asking detailed questions on their install 19:45 & breakin procedures I find mult things they either didn’t do or didn’t do properly that could have easily led to ft cam & lifter failure.
Happy motoring!
@@scottwheaton9689 Scott cam profiles and spring rates definitely play heavily into the problem of both the oil and the lower quality control of lifters today. Building a 318 now and ended up going pretty conservative on the cam, pretty much just a 68 340 type cam, not ground to take full advantage of Chrysler's fat lifters. A more aggressive grind would make more power but I don't want to take a chance, and its a driver anyway.
Honestly brother in our 30 years in business, like you, we have had maybe 6 or 7 flat tappet cam failures "knock on wood". And we build a LOT of flat tappet dirt track engines with crazy lift and hella spring pressure. But I also read all the same things on social media and all the horror stories, theory's ect. There is defiantly an issue, but so far doing things like I always have, using reputable cam company's, making all the checks and correcting any machining issues before assembly, proper break in with the right oil seems to be working for us so I'll continue doing what I'm doing until it don't work I guess. Great Video!
There was major core shift in the cam tunnels of engines back in the 60"s and they ran forever with flat tappets. Easy to see around the machine surface on the first cam bearing. Lifter bores wound have to be worn until lifter had motion side to side. I'm thinking they would also bleed down. The companies passing junk parts to engine builders and not standing behind their parts are putting YOU and hard working shops out of business. Why should a customer take a chance with a shop building a motor when cam companies take no responsibility with their parts? This is why so many shops just buy crate engines and put the risk of failure on them. I wish I had now I have 5-6k in junk. Maybe its time people banded together legally to get this issue resolved.
I see what the other builder is saying sure reboring the camshaft bearing bores and indexing the lifter bores would help and he has no failures sure. Then again I see lifter failures now much more often. My guess it is still a lower quality materials sure his is surviving they aligned better. But look at how many survived before this without the Remachining. I think it was better quality materials ..Have a good day Sir.
I love these vids don't stop
I just watched another video on this topic and it explained clearly that the problem is usually the lifters not being machined properly. The wrong taper/crown or none at all.
I've been watching David Vizard's videos lately. His delivery is slow, dry, and dull, but the info is valuable. He is a partner in an oil additive company called Oil Extreme. He says it has a secret additive that no other oil has, it works better than ZDDP, and eliminates flat tappet failures. He also claims more hp and better mileage. I have no proof, but Vizard is a respected and reputable guy.
Most “miracle additives” that claim amazing friction reduction have some amount of chlorinated paraffins in them. Not one oil manufacturer or engine manufacturer recommends it simply because it turns to hydrochloric acid when mixed with water. Chlorinated paraffins are used primarily as a cutting fluid in machining operations. ZDDP is still the best(and safest) friction reduction additive for flat tappet cams. The only reason it’s been reduced in gas and diesel oils is to protect the after treatment systems to get them out of warranty.
Dude is older than dirt. Hope you that you live as long as he has
I listen to DV at 1.25 speed.
I'm afraid that friction modification additives won't help during break in need to seat rings quickly I have had several cams wiped out doin this for decades the same way never once had a failure until this year wiped a 440 mopar cam and a race flat tappet in my 540 chevy the last two months. I'm not an expert just a drag racer that does his own assembly .something ain't right that's for sure
David Vizard is indeed a very smart man Regarding technical operations engines. He is an even smarter salesman regarding engines.
In the high end of this community he is reputed for the last sentence. That does not take away from what I typed before. Just throwing that out there
Thank you for sharing your knowledge
I just put a chevy 355 together with a hyd flat tappet cam. All the lifters leaked down from the start, for about 300 miles, after 300 or so it was 2 lifters. Around 800 miles 2 lifters still leak down, so I change out all the lifters for a set of anti pump ups, same brand. I couldn't find a set of my tried true Seal Power Anti Pump ups. I bought the whole cam kit from one company, Cam, Lifters, Valve Springs, Retainers, Locks, Seals, & Timing Set all in one box.
I'm running Brodix 200 IK heads, 3/8 push rods, 1.6 full roller rockers ( steal ) and stud girdles. I am using a Melling Billet Shark Tooth oil pump.
Side note I pulled the cam a checked for damage. Also I spent a lot time trying to adjust the rattle out of the first set of lifters. The anti pump ups lifters, adjust them 1/8 turn down at installation and haven't touched them. So far no lifter leak down or rattles even after sitting two weeks between start ups.
Great video! Good to see honest discussion, or at least you are giving both sides to a massive problem. I have a flat tappet cam to install, and obviously worried about destroying everything, so I am correlating all the information I can. So this vid is invaluable!
My only question, is if a motor has already had many 1000s of miles on it without a lifter failure, one would think the indexing would be good. So wouldn't that also be an indication of the problem being in the lifters?
Old builder here, I agree with you. Thanks for the video. 👍
Back in 75 as an 18 yo with only basic tools I installed a performance cam and lifter kit , did a 30 min 2500rpm break in , no special oil or additives 0 problems . Tell me what has changed, my guess inferior products !
Outsourcing our manufacturing to China and the reduced zinc in modern oils are the main reasons. I believe ever-increasing ramp speeds and stiffer springs might also be a factor. But mostly cost cutting on materials, quality control, and the low zinc oils.
Yeah, I rebuilt a BBC 454 back in 99-00 with a comp cams cam and valve train. I broke it in with Valvoline 30 weight oil and used both springs the cam kit came with. Ran it for 30 minutes varying the speed slightly etc. Ran it for years and no issues besides me having the rockers set too tight. I sold the engine to a buddy of mine. He had the intake off, and out curiosity I looked at the cam via lifter valley, perfect wear pattern on each lobe.🤷🏼♂️
EPA crap and China crap
Thanks for this video. Good information.
I first started hearing about lifter failures from Hot Rod magazine about 15 years ago. You'd think they'd have it sorted out by now. Damn cost-cutting greed heads.
I save old lifters and resurface them myself.
@@cammontreuil7509 And how do you resurface a lifter?
@@VinnyMartello I make money doing it. Should I just tell someone how to do it for free ?
That’s entirely up to you. But Considering I probably live hundred of miles from you it won’t make much of a difference. I’m a tree man. I still show people how to safely cut down trees. You know they won’t be able to resist the urge to save money. Might as well make sure they don’t kill themselves.
@@VinnyMartello I used to work for a tree/free service myself. I just came to a point where I had to start saying no more free. Too many people took advantage of me.
I'm easy going and generous and that equation makes you poor.
Great video, its messed up that the same procedure and parts you used 30 years ago doesn't always work today on the same engine,parts for older stuff are pretty much cheap knock off parts.its like the 40 year old fridge still going in the garage but you went through 2 or 3 in last 20 years in the kitchen.
Good video. Thank you!!
A good lifter is made out of harden steel. Usually 8620 or 9310 material and with a light case harden to prevent failure. All these issues are from cheap material or bad heat treating…
I wish I had a bad lifter I would cut and do a metallurgical lab to verify what the issue is.
I'll ask the GM dealer for my old ones. 2021 Silverado. FAILED
I agree with you on the materials coming from another country as reason for majority of failures.
Last year I ran my rebuilt 1967 - 327 for 25 minutes only at 2400+. (a slow project)
Recently I took off the intake to INSPECT the valley (lifters, rods etc.) I noticed I had a lifter that wasn't priming oil correctly. With that said, I took out ALL the lifters and numbered them. I had one lifter that was STARTING to look rough like some mild scraping. This could have been my rocker arm tightening???
In my opinion, if you can, and I know you won't want to, do a break in - then disassemble to inspect.
At least that way you can catch a problem before it gets worse (hopefully)
Stock build - flat tappet
just watched uncle Tonys Garage he had a link to a guy that went through what was going on and it seems we are getting rebuilt lifters that have been reground, honed out and not to specs basically what we think are new are rebuilt watch Tom Mews on the subject
While it certainly is possible that a small sect of the engine building community knows something that the lion share of the community does not know, odds are not great ( especially among those who build engines for a living ). I will also use an old saying here, " where there is smoke, there is fire". Kudos to you Ken for bringing up and discussing another view point despite it being different from your own.
In regards to the other engine builder and what they do, why on earth would I want to spend another $2000+ for that kind of machine work ( and specialty parts ) on a street engine? Your still money ahead to buy the retro fit lifters, new push rods, valve springs and have your heads set up ( proper installed height of valve springs ) while they are in the shop for a valve job anyway.
The Lifters from Engintech look like the GM/Delphi 2 piece hydraulic OEM flat tappets BUT those now come from Taiwan ROC...I found metal shavings on those lifters right out of the box....I cant use Chinesium like that! Crap...
Try Elgin and Jegs lifters
@@Haffschlappe Yes Jegs 20700 lifters are made in USA and work great!
Myself I agree I've been doing this for almost 50 years. When you take a cover of and roll the motor and watch lifters bleed down within seconds, they are wrong. I disassembled my new ls3 and am going to put the old factory lifters back in it.
I would speculate that the managment of the plants that manufacture components are basing their decisions on what bean counters say, not what engineers or machinists say. It’s about cash flow month by month, not building quality products. It is a systemic industry wide issue.
I've wiped 2 cams in my mild 302 Cleveland, first one I chalked down to either a bad break-in or bad quality lifters (unknown brand in reco engine) failed within 3000 km (2000 miles). Second one (Crow cam) went at 70,000 (40,000 miles). I put that down to low zinc oil. With my last one, I did everything right. Comp break-in lube, dumped after 20 min, long break-in with Fuchs Titan 20W60 (race oil). Started ticking not long after, so I pulled every lifter and checked each face, all lovely and shiny. Swapped the rockers to Scorpions (from stock stamped), tick still there, especially when hot. I can only put it down to either sloppy lifter bores or... Bad lifter hydraulics. These are Eaton HT900s, supposedly US made. I did everything right and my Cleveland is still a clacky sewing machine. I'm starting to think that the first 2 cams really weren't my fault.
This is very interesting. I've only done a little engine work over the years, but I have been playing around with an old Porsche 944 for a while now. Even before the pandemic others that work on these cars regularly have said the lifters being produced lately have been of very poor quality, with losing the prime being the main problem. The lifters are of a very different configuration to those found in domestic V8s, and made by only one company, 'INA'. I wonder if some new internationally-adopted environmental regulation has doomed the quality of hardening processes used? Tree huggers have really become a PITA in the last decade or so...
I agree with you 100%. My last set of brand new hydraulic roller lifters would leak down immediately and after a short period of time one of them completely collapsed and would not pump back up. I installed it the same way I have done Many times before. JUNK LIFTERS! NOT MY FAULT!
That's the nature of the beast with hydraulic lifters.
Excellent work traffic communication skills.
Go to the 10 minute mark to hear the explanation.
You ain't kidding
Dave 10 years ago I had 0 failure on hydraulic flat tappet lifters. I built 1 amc 304 and lost a cam ..I sent everything back to comp cam for no warranty. I had erson build another flat cam and used clay Smith hydraulic flat tappet lifters. I haven't lost a cam since using clay Smith
If you haven't tried them do it..
Roger Bess
We never machined the cam tunnel on lower end engines we did do it on high end engines with our Tobin arp line bore machine still had failures we didn’t have failures when sleeves were used in lifter bores but those were all roller cams
You are absolutely right, we shouldn't have to a $1000. On a roller cam. I agree with you and your friend the possibility of using a high mileage engine that needs to be checked before installing a new flat tappet cam. I'm not a licensed engine builder but I do have about 60 or so through out my years. I started in the late 70's, and knock on wood I never wiped the and lifters. Up till last year, now I got 5 cam and lifters sitting on the shelf and the companies won't warranty them because it's my fault! I came across this builder and he's saying the dome on the lifters do not match the tapper on the cam Shaft's. 2.5 to .003 is too much and should be .0015 max. I agree with him. What's your thoughts 🧐💭
I’m about to fire up and break in a flat tappet hydraulic cam tomorrow in a 383 Chevy stroker I’ve followed you for quite some time I’ve learned quite a bit of technical knowledge to become a better engine builder . Here in my area of New York I’ve heard of six different reputable people having lifter or failure upon cam break in . I’ve installed a new set of older GM hydraulic lifters praying everything goes well I thought about a roller cam but this is a GEN one block too much money for retro roller lifters and cam . God willing this will be a strong healthy small block .
Did they work out alright for ya?
This day and age, why wouldn't you use a roller cam????
@@johncholmes643 for some people, cost depending on what their goals are and budget.
@@garlandjones7709 your first loss is your best loss. Nobody can ever afford to do it right, but they can always afford to do it twice....
Chinesium quality is what Americans are willing to pay for. I purchased the best engine parts that money could buy when I rebuilt my 5.7 Chevy truck with a flat tappet cam. The spring pressures are bone stock since it’s just a work truck. The cam was completely coated with the manufacturer’s break in paste as was the faces of the lifters. The engine was absolutely spotless at the time of rebuild and I pressurized it before it ever was started with my Goodson engine oil primer. I’ve been doing this for 33 years for a living. The truck runs 15W40 diesel oil with the correct amount of ZDDP additive to bring the ZDDP up to about 1900ppm which is about where SF grade oil was back when protecting converters wasn’t a thing.
I started having lifters bleeding down after 15K miles. The lifters that were installed in the engine when it was made in 1994 had 220,000 miles on them when I decided to do a complete overhaul on the engine. They never had an issue with bleed-down the entire time. Even if you go to the Chevy dealership you still can’t get the same quality parts that were installed back then.
Believe it or not there’s still a crap load of OBS Chevys and Ford trucks out there with flat tappet cams in them. I’ve stopped building engines in my shop and now I buy a complete engine from my local machine shop (just like the guy making this video) because I prefer him having to stand behind it instead of me. He will even cover my labor if the thing starts ticking within the warranty period. I’m not mentioning the brand of lifters that I used because it just turns into a pissing contest when you do. I don’t think that there’s but one or two manufacturers left that are considered premium quality nevermind the absolute garbage coming out of the land of the Wuhan Croup.
"I’m not mentioning the brand of lifters" - I guess none of us will learn from either of you. Should sue you two in court for wasting my time!!!
@@mistersniffer6838 Well…bye.
@@prevost8686 - Well, hurry up n drop dd, your wasting precious oxygen and resources while contributing nothing to the world!!
I agree with your comments , just say you decided to change out your flat tappet cam for a more aggressive flat tappet cam .. it wipes out in 100 miles .. is it now your cam to lifter geometry is out ?? No , that would show it’s a quality of product issue..
Same here... Did a cam swap on a 454 that was running fine. After break in, heard some rocker arm noise. Pulled the valve covers and had two spongy lifters... Watched Nicks Garage and he had the exact same issue on a 427 Ford. Replaced the lifters and solved the problem.
I see alot of rebuilds on the net still not washing the bores after machine shop and honking does grit get in some of the lifters and help thrash lifters just saying bunk auto and small eng saline Louisiana
Honing spell correct helping me with above
I built engines in the yard when I was a kid and never had lifter issues... The bolts aren't the same anymore either
Spent 27 years in a truck dealer shop i was the shop cummins mid range engine guy built hundreds 5.9 with flat tappets always used luber plate 105 to assemble the engines never had a failure got 225,000 on my personal 5.9 untouched check over head once in a while never had one rocker overly loose or tight always used vavoline cummins blue 15w 40
White box lifters are sourced from the same place as the marked up name brands.
I always pump my lifters in oil to check for excessive bleed-down, just like the old service manuals advised..
Enginetech now has ROC (TAWAN) made lifters looking like Delphis in their boxes.
Your right
I agree with you, I had one cam fail completely at 3000 miles and my next one ticks like a son of a gun. Both manufactured within the last decade. My original cam and lifters from the 70's held up for many tens of thousands of miles before starting to collapse.
What brand was the failure??
@@TOMVUTHEPIMP The elgin lifters failed immediately. I had some Johnson lifters that lasted 4000 miles.
I have say I agree with you Ken .
Let me say this at 60 years of age and with over 40 years of being an Automotive technican I have only had two times that I have experienced lifter failure .The first time was many years ago and the second time well let me say this I know for fact it isn't me .350 chevy compcam comp lifters comp springs 30 to 45 minutes during break in #1 exhaust valve never stopped rattling ..Tearing down in the morning , prety sure cam lob is gone .Summit sent me a new cam kit....will see how much damage there is.
I'm currently 57 years old my dad started me building engine when I was about 9.
If the lifter failure problem was due to shoddy work or bad installation techniques or what have you other than materials then why is it this is only occurring within the last 10 years or so? Did every engine builder on the planet forget how to build engines or are being taught to building the wrong way?
That would literally have to be the case for this unnamed persons opinion to be accurate.
I personally never saw any new lifter failure until about the last decade and since then I haven't had any myself but I have seen many others who have. This is either a materials problem or a machining problem, it really is that simple.
Here in West London , England I've had the same. I just rebuilt my Mustand Ford 289 for the 3rd time ( I had it nearly 30 years now) and I always put in new lifters as a part of the rebuild. Car ran fine for a few weeks and now it won't start. Lifters won't take any pre load. The only way it ran was to slack off the rockers and put in some clearance like solid ones. Car ran rich but it ran. I go back to Real Steel ( our engine parts store over here) I was told the problem is in the oil so I bought USA imported engine oil. They reckon it's low quality engine oil missing zinc and magnesium compound in it that's causing the failure. They got a guy whose engine was wrecked in 10 minutes and they say it's the oil. I ordered a new set of lifters but I also have the ones I took out a couple of years ago and may have to putthem back in! It's not the money for me, it's all the time and effort ripping apart everything again and putting it all back together for someone else's fault. It's no longer a labour of love it's a pain in the arse or ass as you say.
Put Chinese lifters in my 371 olds engine while doing a complete rebuild. This was a mild street engine. Did the proper break in with the lube and zinc oil. They would not hold prime from day I and I could never keep the valves adjusted properly. After 500 miles they were so mushroomed that I needed a die grinder to get a couple of them out of the bore. I replaced with Johnson lifters and adjustable roller rockers from Tony Ross engines. I have 1000 miles on it now with no problems
Thank you for the videos. I decided to go with crower hy roller due to this on an olds build. I can’t imagine doing all the work on a motor and having to pull a motor due to flat tappet failure. Still going to use Lucas break in oil. To much work for issues.
Lucas products are excellent.
Elgin cams are also fine never had a failing one
I wonder if lifter bodies can be cryogenically treated, or nitrided, or mikronited, or hard chromed, after the faces have been ground 🤔. Adds cost, but it's still cheaper than a roller setup, what with rollers needing different springs, pushrods, etc.
There is quite a bit of recent talk about an uptick in various faulty components. I believe there is a quality issue.
If you bore the cam tunnel what do you use as a datum reference. What do you square it up from?
I rebuild my 68 chevy 327 and I have had. The last cam and lifter failure do to lifters is. It okay to use vh1 racing oil with a break. In oil adaptive with zine. Thank you
The Harley world has experienced this pin as well it was bad 07-08ish same with bearings, it wasn’t just one or two manufacturers we had issues with all manufacturers we tried, pop the seals off and discover that there isn’t any grease . Warranty work makes you look bad and it hard to explain to customers how parts made are inferior.
Look folks and MR Ellison you said it before in the past spanning over 30 years I personally have installed lifters and cams in I lost count in how many engines and they were not broke in right according to todays standards how many lifter failures did I have? NONE now all the sudden everyone from coast to coast has lifter failures. WHY china thats why and greed here in the US thats all I am going to say.
Some people have been noticing that they're lifters have no crown right out of the box. That's a manufacturing defect no way around it. Also there have been defects in rotor material for brake rotors where they're too brittle that's not as widespread but the point is it's not just lifters it's several things. I'm returning a clutch master cylinder that about 3 months old on a truck that doesn't even get driven daily and never gets driven hard. It seems like it's almost any parts you buy, just lifters is the worst of it.
czcams.com/video/LxMlu7BNLis/video.html
It's quality control across the board. Mass production is happening in so many different places. Primarily across the pond. We see it with other products as well. Lifters, carbs, brakes, transmissions, and electronics period.
Well I put in a set of Crower hydraulic lifters this past summer so far so good 👍 thank God
Were these the Crower Cam Saver lifters? Still working ok?
@@hvspeed6102 yes they are made in USA
@@hvspeed6102 66000-16
interesting - I know for a fact many factory cam bearing bores are out of spec and that many engines had the bearings installed and then a burnishing tool was used to true them up. A lot of big block chryslers give trouble after new cam bearings are installed - I made a bearing scraper out of an old cam to have the cam freely install and rotate. So then I wonder how out of whack the lifter bores are.
We don’t even stock standard size BBM cam bearings. All we have is the .010” oversize because I’ve almost never seen one that’s correct, including some brand new blocks.
The KB blocks I seeing have been dead on however.
VW some other German companies have had SOHC and DOHC cam buckets fail. Their solution was DLC coating. I wonder what it costs to buy that to add to lifters.
15:05 Some blocks made roller conversion impossible or close to it. Only recently did someone find a way to make roller cams and lifters for the Jeep 4.0 I6 as an example.
Are hydraulic rollers okay, or should I go with a mechanical rollers?
is there a brand u would recommend today for SBC
Uncle Tony’s Garage talked about this. He got a cam for an old Hemi and it didn’t even fit through the cam bearings. He also had an engine that the lifters bled down like you mentioned. It is wide spread. I had a new company car that started making noise at about 30k and the dealer had to replace the lifters. The major issue is the cam/lifter companies have shipped their factories overseas to…you know where and the quality has gone to chit. The metal being used is chit and the slaves who do the work only have production as a goal. It is a sad state of affairs with no way out until we start building our stuff here in the USA.
Your company car uses flat tappet cams? LOLOL!
It's funny I was going to ask you about this subject . This is Chris with the G20 van we spoke before I was wondering I'm building the 350 for the van and I was wondering if it would be better off to use the original lifters that were in decent shape rather than take a chance with the soft metal lifters with a brand new camshaft
If the cam and lifter bores not being machined properly is the cause of the cam failures, why didn't they fail originally?
Crane cams lifter failure was from marking a camshaft for a 351 Ford and ground on a 351 blank as a 302. After repeated attempts at start the cam and lifters were wiped. Degreed, disassembled, new ignition, checked, reassembled. Finally tried the 351 firing order and it started, too late. Crane offered to replace the cam.
351 has better firing order.
It has pissed me off for all time since the first time!
I was building engines in the mid nineties and had several cams go on me and it just seemed like soft products from one company because I switched companies and never had another problem.but today's problem s seems different
great video. so the flat tappet cams are also part of the problem not just the lifters.
What do you think of comp cams?
I had an old truck I wanted to put in an RV cam I bought the cam and the lifters install them with a new timing chain I never broke the cam in and it run flawless parts or not what they used to be
RV cams are very mild, meant for bottom end torque from idle to about 4500, tops. Usually just a tad more lift and duration than stock, but sometimes LESS duration than stock. And stock type valvesprings are very light.
Most people don't know how to break in a cam flat tapit or roller hydrolic or solid if your using a flat tapit have the cam grinder put 3 little flats on the side of the cam at three equil distances apart and if you can have the cam man put a 20 thousandth hole in the center of the face of the lifter where it rides on the cam and never crank on the motor when first starting a new motor if it don't start there's some thing wrong cheak it use the right oil make sure you coat the cam prior to installing it with moly not the liquid break in oil I see some guys use on the cam its gonna go flat if you do use oil ,the very reputable engine builder smokey Unick said to take a piece of 600 wet n dry sand paper put it on your thumb press it against the lifter face with water rotate the lifter a Couple of times to nock down the agressive machining marks on the face just a few turns not 5 not 4 ,2 or 3 also use LITE springs when breaking in a cam know how to pre adjust a rocker and use a case hardened cam and lifter set it's the added insurance against cam lifter failure if you don't do these steps screw it your a dumb ass I'm 67 I been building motors for 50 years I've NEVER had a cam go flat because I went to school to learn how to build motors and break them in I'm also a machinist I've taken the advice of Ak Miller ,Zora arkus Dontove ,Smokey Unick, Mr goldblad comp cams ,Ed Iskendarian, Mr Bruce Crower, Mr Crane, MrTerry Walters, n the professor Mr David Visard Read all what these great men have written then you'll know how to break in a cam properly Read it's the way you learn before you distroy a part or a complete motor and maybe kill your self ,,Peace bro n sisters
Talk to mechanics across the board,this is going on with all kinds of parts,soft ball joints etc. Also a lot of counterfeiting going on. The company's need to stand behind their parts regardless who makes it. They are part of the problem. Maybe the company that makes lifters for John Force can make me some,I'll just have to make em fit. I know they could do it in Cuba.
If you really want TOP of the line, you want lifters by Morel or Jesel. But are you talking hydraulic flat, hydraulic roller, or solid roller? Not sure if Morel or Jesel even make flat tappets, since very few hardcore race engines use them anymore, except in limited circle track or Stock Eliminator classes.
I've had good luck with BBC's by having the lifter bores lightly honed by the machine shop. This is especially important if the block is older, seen a lot of abuse or it has been hot tanked. Those bores can shift or become egg shaped with heat and stress.
I believe part of the issue is people adding a ZDDP additive to this modern API street oil. This modern oil is required to have insane amounts or detergents as well as having a high alkalinity for these insane 10,000 mile oil change intervals. They are blending this oil to neutralize a lot of acids over these insane oil change intervals as well as fight sludge buildup in the high temperature areas around the piston rings. This is important with these extremely low tension rings and these 10,000 mile oil change intervals. Seriously the vast majority of the population believes these insane oil change intervals are ok and most actually exceed even these! Sorry to write so much, so here’s my point these detergents are preventing and “cleaning” the ZDDP off the metal surfaces effectively making it useless. It’s damn near impossible to get the technical info out of an oil company about one of these non API “racing oils” believe me I’ve tried many times. Without the technical data we don’t know what exactly the additive package is. Obviously this bad machining and all these other factors are also at play. But when we have a camshaft and lifter failure on a cam that had proper taper, lifters that spun free and had a proper crown, parts were properly hardened, broken in on inner springs only, ect, ect, ect there is another reason why.
The only way to align a cam bore is to redrill by over sizing the bore. So where do you find oversize cam bearings.
Thank you. Bottom line, facts, majority of our automotive parts are made outside the USA. Cheaper labor, poor quality, lack of QC. This allows U.S. manufacturers/assemblers, or distributors, to keep higher profit margins. No longer, 100% made in America. Now the stickers state, Assembled in America with foreign made parts.
I have two new sets of Sealed Power lifters for my International 392 motor. I have a COMP cam and also a used OEM cam. Im spending way too much money restoring my travelall to just have the engine blow up in 5 minutes. Can you recommend someone to inspect and possibly reshape lifters for appropriate taper? I can pay for labor obviously.
Powell Machine Shop
Another example is Speedpro Pistons, turn them over. Along the skirt you will see either USA, or India. Measure, study and come to your own conclusion. Ring seal depends on the ability of the ring to seat to the ring land in each direction and remain seated through the stroke that the seat is dependent. It is more important than ring to wall seal.
Still zero flat tappet failures to date after this discussion with Ken.
We continue to correct the cam tunnels and lifter bores though.
Let’s hope that if there is indeed a lifter quality issue, it’s gething resolved.
Ron, Cedar Machine
Learn to do your job right the first time that way u only do it once
I’ve always used Rhoads Lifters and Valvoline Racing oil. Been at it since 82. Hardly ever changed a cam bearing, never indexed a lifter. Never lost a cam. Firestone Pensioner #444963.
It’s a grind issue. No taper or incorrect taper on the cam and or lifter and or lifter feet not ground perpendicular to lifter body or with correct crown. It’s not the shops fault. It’s not the metal hardness. It’s machinists that can’t frigging run a lathe and or wrong oil in virtually every one I’ve seen fail. Nothing more. But they’ll have you believe it’s because you failed to “index the lifter”. The day I index a lifer, I’m also buying a Tesla! 🙄
I know this is an old video, a year. I've done some looking since I watched the first one this morning - there are a number of lifter makers saying theirs are all manufactured in the USA. Yes they cost more but should be worth it - opinion or experience with any of these - Johnson, Morel, Clay Smith, etc
There's a massive issue with quality everywhere you look nowadays. It doesn't matter if your changing brakes, ball joints, u joints, bearings of any kind, its could even be a thermostat housing, or a throttle body gasket. There is a major problem with quality all across the board. I have an eagle eye when it comes to parts. There is massive amounts of counterfeiting going on, in the last 2 years I've had to source down so many different parts go through several different suppliers just to finally get a decent part that actually fits and functions as good as oem. Do no trust oreilly auto, advance auto, or autozone. All 3 have been selling counterfeit parts that are completely unsafe and are accidents waiting to happen. So far I have yet to see a counterfeit part from napa. I'm talking about general maintenance and repair not extreme engine building. But the common factor is still there. Doesn't matter if your fixing your neighbors minivan or buying a u joint for your wheeler, if your buying parts you better thoroughly check and inspect brand new parts. This is a form of what's called industrial sabotage. This is an attack at the working man. This is NOT affecting the big names in this industry, they're reaping all the profits while we suffer. They have lawyers working fulltime for their protection, even if we all banded together and pooled our resources we still wouldn't be able to do anything legally because it all comes down to one thing. Money. Money is power in this world because we were all fooled into fighting the wrong enemy. If you look back throughout history there is only one tribe that can cause all these problems on a global scale. They have been causing problems and committing evil acts for over 2000 years. You don't want to bring politics into this channel but your right there on the edge of all the answers but you're trying to hold onto the false reality and think that these issues will just resolve themselves but they will not. The truth is that THE TRUTH FEARS NO INVESTIGATION. ONLY LIARS FEAR INVESTIGATION. IF YOU TELL THE TRUTH YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMEMBER WHAT YOU HAVE SAID. I know you feel this way but something is keeping you from calling out these liars. Don't hold back, don't pull punches. If you see a lying scumbag you make sure they know it along with everyone else. It's clear what's going on here. We're being lied to and our wealth stolen.
This is engineered sabotage. Anyone that works on motors should know that lifters don't just fail or eat up entire motors. There are engineered failures and then there is this. Engineered sabotage.
Look up the training documentary for us army on industrial sabotage. I'm sure you will find some similarities.
Anyone want to do a challenge? I'll take a junkyard motor and use junkyard parts, no machine work, no special tools. I'll take one 350 block, 2 separate heads entirely from 2 different 350 blocks and I'll use a cam from one and lifters from another. All parts will be used. The only thing that will be new is oil, fasteners, and gaskets. Fire it up and I'll bet you in total confidence that the motor doesn't eat itself. Operation Frankenstein 350.
Thats how Afrika works
Where's the other shops video on the issue and a solution....
I can't speak to modern day engines or aftermarket parts. I can speak to GM Flint & St. Louis and classic Corvettes. From a former GM Engineer --> Flint did not go through any kind of cam break-in procedure, nor did St.Louis. Flint hot fired the engines for 30-60 seconds, then shipped them to St. Louis. At the end of the line a guy started them up and drove the car away. The "cam break-in procedure" is critical if you have a racing cam with high-rate valve springs but is not critical for an OE cam and valvetrain. I just this week replaces the cam on my 73 Vette, removed a hideous Comp Cam a prior owner installed with an OE GM 389662 (L82) cam, 5232720 lifters (hardened Delphi) and 3911068 springs. I have checked all the blocks, 1) your valve adjustment procedures, 2) Driven Assy Lube on cam and lifters, 3) dab of Moroso moly lube on lifter face, 4) VR1 High Zinc oil, 5) GM EOS additive. I don't expect any cam break in issues (fingers crossed). I have replaced a lot of cams over the last 50 years as a DIY'er gearhead and have never had a wiped cam. Changed a few back in the day (70's) while working in the family Automotive Repair business that had bad cam lobes, if I recall correctly, these were mostly Buicks and Pontiacs. This will be flat tappet cam #3 in the last 10 years and no issues with the last two. Thanks for the video, interesting discussion.
I just had a comp cam hydraulic flat tappet lifter collapse and break during break in procedure. I'll never use flat tappet lifter again. Install roller cam and lifters and ride out.
But dont buy Chinese
Twenty to thirty years ago, it was an oil issue, not enough zinc. Calls to the cam suppliers didn't help, as they were as "out in the cold" as everyone else. Today, we're faced with a different problem. Metal failure issues, and the cam suppliers are quick to throw the blame at the engine builders, saying we're not using the correct oils or break in procedures. As of late, we're seeing wheels on roller lifters breaking in two, and ruining the camshafts. If they aren't using inferior parts, then what's the answer?