Why You Should NEVER Install Flat Tappet Lifters Again!
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- čas přidán 10. 11. 2022
- In today's episode of Carnage Garage, we introduce the first video in a series that will be addressing the problems with flat tappet lifters and how to fix them. In this episode, we cover a few of the problems that flat tappet lifters have presented when working on old motors. The second episode will cover parts and pieces that will solve these issues. Stay tuned for those episodes and more! And don't forget to subscribe!
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AFTER BUILDING ENGINES FOR 50 YEARS,and pulling thousands of them apart,the super clean ones inside,first thing i checked was the door lube sticker,to see who's oil they had been using,all the ones that had zinc in them were just normally worn,the ones with no zinc,gummed,coated,lobes worn,the internal combustion engine needs to two things,regular oil changes and zinc in the oil,roller or not,rubbing ,spinning parts[roller design] needs zinc too,remember, remember that parts companies only owe you a machined part to fit your application,if YOU are using the correct lubricant in your pan and on your parts,your car sings along down the road,other wise,like this man his engine is now full of metal,due to high loading and unecessary heat on gliding surfaces that need the zinc terribly ,i wont use anything but flat tappet cams cause i hate,HATE,THE HIGH SPRING PRESSURES,they eat cam bearings and parts,and most of all,the damn engine needs clearancing perfect,to live.I;VE FOUND that spending the money for the zinc oils and proper clearancing the lifter bores,these engines will survive and roll down the road in the heat and cold.this breaking IN bs of running new engines up to 2000 rpms on new engines is horse caca,i worked dealerships for 35 years,MOPAR,GM,FORD,HELL EVEN AMC for awhile,cam failures were rare,damn rare,new cars would come thru and we idled them for HOURS,new,brand new,no break in,period,the ZINC IS A CHEMICAL THAT HAS TO BE IN ALL ENGINES,ALL ENGINES,ROLLER CAMS have rolling parts that have to spin and run clean,on new engines,run them for 3 hours,drop the oil and filter change,DO it again in 750 road miles,rings will be seated,and then drive the hell out of it,but you had better put zinc in all of your engines,including lawnmowers,or it will be toast,CLEAN CLEARANCED ENGINES RUN FOREVER,I change oil 3500MILES-- 3 times,till the oil pan is clean,then go to 5000 miles intervals 3 times,then rotate back to 3500 miles 3 times,this keeps the oil pan clean and most importantly that pickup screen,it clogs GOOD BY ENGINE
Most sensible post so far 👍 Nothing wrong with FT cams.
So glad I read this comment...thanks for the knowledge....zinc is goin in on next oil change for sure
You know a whole lot..... about absolutely NOTHING.
@@TOMVUTHEPIMP LOL
Bottom line is there are so many different variables. Most factory stuff are lazy profiles with low spring pressures and older oils weren't as cleaned up for the environment. The higher rpm for break-in is there so lots more oil is getting to the lobe lifter interface and the cam is doing 900rpm and more likely to rotate the lifter. Anything with engine operation requires precision, do your research on whichever system you decide to use. Thanks for the comments on a short on answers video. Scott
Jeep Cherokee’s up until the early 2000’s ran flat tappet lifters in the straight 6 engines. Never had to put any extra zinc in the oil for those engines. And they ran fine for over 200,000 miles. So not enough zinc in modern oils for flat tappet lifters is bull. Yes you need a high zinc oil for break in, but after that I don’t think so.
Correct. OEM cams barely move the valve off the seat and have such gentle ramps they usually last a lifetime
Aftermarket lifters have to buy quality pieces and ck ea for proper taper thats all
Mfrs are pushing FT cams with too radical seat timing to mimic a roller and self destruct
Harvey crane H. Brookshire Ed Iskendarian used to talk about ideal intensity factor and it holds true today
Doing a large SFT in my next build. Curretnly a large solid roller but will never hold up over time like my sft engines did
Expensive and a lot more parts to go bad with rollers.
Beginning in the early 2000's, the EPA mandated the removal of zinc and phosphorous from engine oil, due to issues with catalytic converters on newer vehicles. I add a bottle of STP Oil Treatment (blue bottle) at every oil change. I have 3 flat tappet motors, all with over 250,000 miles. All going strong with no issues. Flat tappets have been used for decades, they're not the issue. Yes, roller lifters are better; but they are much more expensive.
Wrong - they have only reduced the compounds, not removed.
To make you feel better, the one oil change didn't kill it, they are often under zinc'd during the brake in, so they never got that set in. I have both flat and rollers. Life is easier if they are all roller lifters.
To complicate things there can also be too much Zinc/Phosphorous additive also. It can be corrosive if over done. Always use the recommended amount in the oil. Better for roller motors also.
And check lifter bores and use the correct springs no matter what set up.
Yes
With bad quality parts these days I went flat tapped. To many guys talking about failed rollers at the track. I'm wondering about spring pressures on the springs. Most people throw heads on with never checking springs and valve train geometry.
Dude. The more info you can get us the better. Have a 71 that’s needs an engine rebuild and would like to see it all. Keep the videos coming.
Would love to see disassembly and reassembly vidoes and edelbrock rep too. So do you believe that with the zinc additive that the lifter would have not failed?
Our premier engine builder in my area says quality camshaft blanks are hard to come by. Hence it could be the cam wearing out the lifter?
I also want to see your engine builder do that work for you and your mom’s bronco!
Thanks Mitch
Rullyftare håller inget bättre jag har sett många platta rullar å trasiga lyftarstyrningar, men jag har testat olika fabrikat det är stor skilnad på kvalite' å modärna oljor zink är inte alltid bra?
Yes bring in the Edelbrock expert. One of my sons is 15 years old and the other is 17 they both have two first generation Broncos my 15 year old this week decided he wanted to build one of his and we were talking about doing an Edelbrock performance upgrade. So if you can get a specialist then that would be a great episode for my son to watch on his new adventure to building his first bronco. As a father it is awesome to see it as what I wanted for both of my boys. I have had my bronco for 28 years and I love it as much today as the day I got it
Get Isky cams not Edelbrock
Edelbrock today is owned by comp and sucks....get Elgin
I'll watch it all, the more details the better bro!
A bought Ford Oem lifters and ran them in two Broncos and a F100. Twenty years later still driving them. Oh and I never added zinc.
I have a 65 Mustang that I just pulled the engine after 15 years. Never once used zinc and everything looks fine. Its not a zinc issue.
I’d love to see the Edelbrock rep and you converting your engine over to roller!!
Heck ya loved to hear from the reps
When you buy a lifters you have to make sure that the face is hardened face of the lifter and up the sides about an eighth of an inch should be a little brown from where it was hardened if it doesn’t have that don’t use it it’s gonna fail
Their great if you know what you're doing, but most people haven't a clue.
The removal of Zinc from motor oils is the main reason for failures
Zinc additives don't work because theres a process that has to be done for the zinc to be mixed with the oil also there's also more minerals that are needed besides zinc, driven oil explain this too you
That's correct, but you should not trust anything with the Driven name either
@@rickss69 His comment is incorrect. Additives work just fine if you buy a quality one with what is required. I add Rislone Hyper-Lube ZDDP in a 67 Mustang 460 pro street engine. No issues at all. And NO Comp Cams China crap in my engines ever!!!!!!
You can use Mos2 Additive
Like the army does around 4% of oil volume
Has a follow up video ever been posted? I don't see it at all.
Dude! Not everyone has 1000 dollars to blow on retrofitting a new roller cam into a non-roller cam block. If you want to Paypal me 1000 dollars I'll do it. So far, up to and including 3 months ago I've had no trouble breaking in standard lifter cams and lifters. Yeah, I know it can happen. Anything can technically happen, but these bad lifter videos are going to scare people away from hot rodding.
ALSO Castrol has brought out Castrol GTX Classic oil, with much zinc and phosphorus according to the jug. It works.
Thanks for the Castrol GTX Classic oil heads-up Danny!!!
I mostly buy NOS cams and lifters and Jegs housebrand or Elgin cams and liftes never an issue
Be sure and check you valve spring pressures. A roller cam requires a lot more spring rate due to the increased weight of the lifter and the speed in which the valve opens and closes. Notice the Edelbrock heads you sell on your website state when you go directly to the Edelbrock website to use only on flat tappet cams. That being said I’m replacing the cam in my 66 now due to a roller lifter failure, the second in 12 years. Roller lifters fail too.
Chinese crap sucks, try Elgin
Edelbrock coming and giving a demonstration would be great as would some shots of the disassembly and reassembly
I thought a quality break In oil was to be used until the cam and lifters were broken in. Then change it and add your oil you choose to run. Maybe not necessary, but I add Rislone ZDDP hyper-lube (maybe 1/2 qt bottle I think) that cost around $10. Or Run expensive oils like Brad Penn etc, if you like with high ZDDP content. Thanks for sharing. Cheers from Motown/Dearborn.
The more vids the better. One question, what’s with the rambled 6th gen in the background?
You never gave a single reason why not to buy flat tappet.
I think Comp Cams payed him hush money to be quiet about their worthless products made in China. lol
They all come from China except Isky cams they are great!
Elgin and Jegs housebrand is also fine
Use Elgin or Jegs housebrand flat tappet cams Made in USA and everything wrks good
I use flat tappets all the time, always have good luck.
That's total BS.
@@TOMVUTHEPIMPi use them too when rules mandate them. Ive never had one fail in 20 years.
Best use Elgin Pro Stock or Jegs Housebrand they work good
You can tell the coolant is from the teardown, otherwise it would have ben mixed in. Notice how they stay separated.
The guy that built my 390 said to use valvoline 2050 racing oil. Supposedly has all the vitamins and minerals
New camshaft before installing, measure each camlobe, must have at least ,003 difference to make lifters spin, machine work on camshafts cause failure not metal hardness most times.
Solid lifters for a trailer queens. Needs adjustment every 12 k but they last .
My wife and I could adjust the valves on my big block Chevy between rounds bracket racing and we weren't even very quick about it. It's just not a big deal.
Comp Cams?
FYI Edelbrock Performer RPM cam and lifters kits are Comp Cams parts. Be prepared for the worst. Their crap just cost me the crank, bearings, gaskets and seals, oil, filter and a whole lot of labor, again. Not to mention the $2000 to go to a roller cam and lifters and pushrods and springs and retainers and locks and more assy lube and a LOT of time here in covid world. Gee thanks Edelbrock and Comp Cams.
Let's hear the Edlebrock rep! Huh?
The only thing that they will say is that it is your fault. No matter what. BOHICA!
Idk, I just bought a flat tappet and haven't had any problems.
You bought 1 tappet? You need 8 of them.
@@TOMVUTHEPIMP He needs 15 more or 11 or 7 so on and so forth
The problem is...probably better than 90% of motor oil formulations are formulated to suit car manufacturers with their design requirements on new builds, so what they are building displaces even nascar's collective wallet - who abandoned flat tappets in 2010 or so, when the arrival of the SN spec showed no relief from ongoing problems of the prior API standard. From SM spec and onwards, oil is the problem more often than cam grind or lifter quality in my opinion. What oil does is provide wear resistance - up to a point. What is that psi number where film breaks down? 65k? 98k? 122k? That would be the one thing you cannot find out directly. API this, JASO that, Dexos umptysquat, a half dozen or better ASTM methods largely unexplained to the public in data sheets, and on it goes: marketing around the edges, and shortchanging the public regarding the real wear protection numbers. Oil analysis services are good at chemical detective work, but where to go for mechanical testing? Seems all that data is wrapped up in NDA's with carmakers the oil makers/chemists cannot release, and if that is the case... it's a massive public disservice, hiding the primary function of oil from consumer discovery.
Flat tappets are better... but where? To me, the answer is mainly lower lift applications [sub 0.480" or so] because taking advantage of rapid lifter accelleration still has room for easier ramps without getting into excess overlap. 0.480-0.570" is a grey area [better have very good oil] and after that, looking at rollers begins. Do not ever overspring your setup: more actually sucks. Lightweight retainers or rocker arms are a far better investment. For example, 375 pounds of spring pushing back at a cam via a 1.5 rocker is 562 pounds of force going at the lobe. If lifter area tangent to the lobe presents near say... 0.0064 square inches [an 0.08" x 0.08" spot], the oil must stand up to at least 87,812 psi worth of abuse. Add in a safety margin, because of temperature and additive degradation over time: 20%? 25%? There are oils that still work, but better keep a 3k mile oil change plan for peace of mind. Zinc works, but there is more than one way to skin a cat - Oil Extreme has done well using calcium sulfonate, but again... its the numbers that the total additive package produces that go in your engine, and they all work together. There rare high zinc oils that don't work - some are overdosed with one or more additives , some have a total package that can't provide minimum psi protection on its best day under perfect conditions. And folks might have noticed, government designing anything by fiat doesn't work well: recall that after CAFE passed in the 70's, they managed to kill an extra 5,000 motorists each and every year... until airbags saved our bacon. The flailex on oil isn't going much better: how many thousands of cams have they killed?
I don’t think the absence of the zinc additive was the sole culprit, could’ve very well been the cam was bad from the beginning. I personally would like to see as many follow up videos as possible, both with the edlebrock rep and your engine builder.
Man, I am tired of flat tappet lifters. Just seems like the quality of the lifters has taken a nosedive over the past 10-20 years. The only problem is the cost of roller lifters - if you're not re-using OEM stuff, it can get really expensive!
99% of the time it isn't the fault of the lifter. Or the cam. It's the idiot who put it together and broke it in incorrectly or not at all.
Even on old Fiat and Volvo OHV engines nobody ever die a breakin...todays China crap sucks and dies with or without breakin
U didn't "forget" to put the zinc in. U just didn't think it was necessary & after the break in process u simply stopped using it. How do u go buy oil, oil filter & know u need zinc but forget when your buying everything u need for a oil change & then when doing the oil change, u just happen to forget again & go forward with the oil change? U just didn't think u needed it & it bit u in the ass is more likely the case.
I cant even read this word salad.
@KINGTROLL never learned huh?
@@jesseduke694 What school did you go to? I want to make sure my kids never go there.
@KINGTROLL the school I went to isn't responsible for u not being able to read? That's weird? What words are u having trouble with? I'll help you. We can sound them out together. Ok just point out the words u don't know. Just the big ones or all of them? I wish I knew how to put pictures on here! Maybey that would help u?
The problem was the oil not the cam
I thought I was the only one who had a 1 hour on paper vs. 5 hours actual time,...
Could have got a 5.0 for 600 bucks out the wreckers
use the right oil and use a reputable lifter and cam grinder. i guarantee this lifter or lobe was ground without proper taper.
comp and crane are the same now company and have super spotty QC. isky is still made the way they were in 1988 or whenever and howards cams and lifters are supposedly right too. i wouldn't trust a comp or crane set of rollers.
Flat tappet engines never needed a zinc additive and these engines were being manufactured and sold well after the new "lower zinc" API SM rated oils became universal. This small block Ford didn't lose a cam and a lifter because of ZDDP. The engine builder never verified lobe taper, lifter crown, and most importantly lifter bore oil clearance. This failure is on the builder.
Nothing new to see here.
why you should never install a roller cam again .... why you should never install a hydraulic cam again .... why you should never install a cam again .... run a sleeve valve engine and never worry about cams or lifters ever again
Oh, another issue I saw was you are using Comp Crap. Don't know what they did to their process, (China shit?) But have seen so many Comp failures even with a perfect break in etc. Comp won't even address this issue or speak about it. Like they are hiding it by not putting out a company statement on what they are doing to fix this issue. Will never buy anything Comp in the future. Too many other good companies to deal with. Also, the cam lifter failures were TOP notch Engine builders etc, so it IS the Comp quality issues.
We appreciate the insight! What other companies would you recommend?
Learn to do it right, you won't have any problems.
I want my exhaust close enough to cook my oil and not be able to get my drain plug out. Haha really. Get a new muffler guy or different exhaust and if it just doesn't fit then get a blazer so your not looking at Chevy tail lights all the time