Camshaft Crisis?
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- čas přidán 16. 03. 2023
- I bought a camera stick with a "gyro" but obviously its not working! I neglected to mention 2 things. That the Cam Dynamic Camshaft I used in this rebuild is over 40+ years old ( a late 1980's purchase) and that the spring seat pressure on the Melling's lifters used with the Comp Cam (six pack engine) was 130 lbs. A higher spring rate but a better rotational wear pattern on the lifter face than the Comp Cam lifters @ 110 lbs. used on the (NOS) Cam Dynamic Camshaft. Care to rationally explain this with logic and reason? I don't want bullshit theories about oils and lifter face crowns. I CHECKED ALL THAT!
As I explained in the video, these lifters ALL HAD CROWNS (Face to face) and the cam lobes were ground with the 1 - 2 degree tapered angles. If they didn't, the lifters would NOT rotate on the assembly mock up. I want to hear a "Mechanical Engineering" diagnosis based on "Science", not a "Business" theory based on "Commercial/Corporate" advertising.
Note: What will be the sales "price" on this 1968 440 engine after all this additional tear down time, new parts and gaskets are factored in?
This all fucking free? Hi Performance engine building used to be my passion, now it is becoming an ordeal! - Auta a dopravní prostředky
SBC notorious for this wiping lobes & lifters in no time at all, NOT AN OILING ISSUE, Im 64 and Ive built 100s of V8s and only in the past 20 years have the cam/lifters had an extremely high fail rate. At that first lifter TAP TAP TAP the first week of running you know were its heading immediately . They try blaming it on you !!! Did you use break in oil ? did you break in with inner valve spring removed ? are you running zinc.... BULL-@#$% . We didnt do none of this in our youth and beat the snot out of our engines with no cam failures. Big companies not doing the full range of heating, nitride like in the past making us go to roller assemblies and killing off us dinosaurs.
Amen brother. Exactly my thoughts and experiences. I guess that we are going to have to find another hobby.
I've never had cam lifter problems from a small block chevy but I can't say I've used cheap lifters either
@@davidkeeton6716 why? If anything an option would be switch to roller cam
Outsourced too China, or the like, no or very little quality control, inexperienced people running the machines, people who could care less about quality...
Because it's the oil.
When Comp started offering their plasma nitriding I thought you cheap bastards, you want me to pay to finish off your product.
We started building engines, and racing cars in the late 1960's. Cam & lifter problems were unheard of back then, even with stronger springs than specified. Sometime in the mid 1980's we started seeing flat tappet cam/lifter issues so we began using soft valve springs during the break-in period, and that seemed to be the solution. Then in the mid 1990's we experienced the failures due to the absence of zinc in the oil. It took some time, many rebuilds at our expense, and many calls to cam manufacturers before learning that it was an oil issue. Today, we're finding out that some cams aren't ground with a taper, and not all flat tappet lifters are finished with a uniform. convex bottom. However, even when the parts have the correct finish and shapes, we're still seeing problems. We had one build (Pontiac 400) that had a failure with a flat-tappet cam, so we upgraded to hydraulic roller. With less than 1000 miles on that build, a wheel on one of the lifters broke, and ruined the camshaft. That was in May of 2022, and we're still waiting for a replacement cam, however there aren't any cores available for Pontiac engines yet. WTF has happened in this industry?
Thanks Rolly for the reply. This is my concern as we go forward. That the failure rate of "roller" liters are starting to rise especially the hydraulic rollers. I've seen roller lifter "follower wheels" delaminating due to improper metallurgical processes/chemistry and the roller "bearings" supporting the wheel on the axle shaft in the lifter body are "flat spotting" and also failing. They can't take the extra/excessive valve spring loads. The other thing no one seems to talk about with "hydraulic" roller lifters is their weight! All builders talk about is their costs!
Hydraulic rollers are 142(+) grams vs 101 grams for a "typical" flat tappet Chrysler hydraulic lifter. Chrysler "Light weight solids" are less than 78 grams. Radical camshaft ramp angles require heavier "thick walled" push rods and this adds up weight wise to increased valve train cyclical loads and valve train harmonics. A lot of people including many Hi Perf. engine builders have forgotten basic physics. "The reciprocating weight is multiplied by the square of engine RPM". They want a "high winding/heavy valve train component" engine?!?! The solution?....much stiffer valve spring "seat and open" pressures that can end up pounding out the valve seats especially in aluminum heads. There is always a "trade off" and for some reason, this is never discussed.
Kind regards, Tim Muzak
@@metalmaxmopar9520 I tell our clients about the fact that the valve springs not only close the valve, but deal with the weight of the pushrods, rockers and lifters, holding those parts to the closing ramp of the cam lobes. negative factors include the harmonics in the springs, and often the pushrods. "Lofting" at max open on the lobes is almost impossible to completely prevent. As for lifters, we're going to the .904" (Chrysler) diameter on all the race builds. Most of our clients are bracket racers (drags) and switching from needle bearings to bronze bushings in the lifter wheels has proven to more than double lifter life in that area. This holds true as long as open spring pressures don't exceed about 1000 lbs. Beyond that, it's back to needle bearing type. The premium roller lifter manufacturers state that they're paying close attention to the quality and heat treating from the suppliers of needle bearings and the wheels and axles in their lifters. So, the "pay more money, and get better or longer-lasting" lifters seems to work for the time being. It's good to converse with someone that works in this field. Thanks Tim
China happened.....buy american and ignore chinese crap and comp crap.
I've broken in four flat tappet cams in the past year alone and I've never used extra light springs or super low ratio rockers for break-in. The first thing I do is check for crown on the lifter by putting each one on a stone countertop. It needs to rock around indicating crown or a high spot in the center.
Second, get out your verniers and check for taper on each cam lobe. There needs to be .003-.004" taper.
After you've gone way out of your way to to make sure that a machine operator knows how to use his gauges and is actually gauging his work, only then can you install the parts into your engine.
You're not done yet!
Once installed and valvetrain is assembled...mark the lifters with a marker and rotate the engine either by hand or with the starter with the spark plugs out.
If lifters are not spinning, you need to stop and re-evaluate the entire situation. You Cannot move forward.
People love to say that we shouldn't have to do all this.
You're absolutely right! But we have no choice.
Hi and thanks Project for you're input. I do and have done in the past basically every visible "inspection" process you have listed here on the cam lobes and lifters. Especially the aggressive/high spring pressure "solid" flat tappet camshaft lobes. I use a piece of thick flat glass for a flat surface as I don't have access to a "precision ground" granite table stone. Where I would part "inspection" processes with you is in using the "starter" motor to spin a completely assembled engine to check for valve tappet rotation. To me, that promotes "wiping" the lobes and lifter faces of assembly lubrication especially in a high V/S loaded engine. This is a risk that is likely promote "metal to metal" contact. To me, this defeats the whole purpose of assembly lube and I would never attempt to do this rotation "dry" or with "light oil" by hand. It is to risky for me and does not "solve" the real potential problem.
EXAMPLE: Here is the "BUT" and it's a major "BUT".....you do all these inspection process and you get the (short term) immediate results you are looking for (like I did). The lifters rotate and everything seems fine even after start up and the engine is running. How do you assess the (not so) long term consequences of "poor" metal chemistry (Mill specs) and poor metals processing (heat treatment/annealing etc)? Under "moderate" operational loads, that destruction only happens over time.
The ONLY way this "assessment" can be done is by ( you/me) purchasing a Rockwell surface hardness tester and buying "membership" privileges to the ASTM testing specifications/procedures for carbon based steels.
This is where I am and where many of us are at. If the chemical composition of the material these parts (or any other parts) is made up of is inferior in the specified percentages of the "alloying" elements, ie: manganese, chromium, nickel, carbon etc. then all of this "visual" testing is moot!.......useless! AND HERE WE ARE! That is my position. Kind regards, Tim Muzak
@@metalmaxmopar9520
Your process is indeed extremely thorough.
In the end, all that we can control is what we can control. What happens at The foundry is the gamble we take unless go the extra step of checking hardness as you mentioned.
To clarify my process with cranking the engine over,
Since the intake manifold is off, it's super easy relube the cam which goes without saying.
Cheers and good luck sir !
@@Projects5309 Thank you.....all I feel I can "control" sometimes is........ "going for a (many?) pitcher's of beer after working at the shop"! ....helps (medicinally)......... to keep my mind "right".....🙃
@@metalmaxmopar9520 yeah its the taper. lost an elgin STOCK ford cam, checked taper in both failed and replacement elgin and taper was shit. and the corps wont stand behind it. no probs with anything melling.
Elgin lifters are crap i would not use in lawnmower.@@FloydODB
Glad I came across this video, I thought I was going crazy. Two builds, two different manufacturers, same exact thing. No case depth on lifters or camshafts. Followed exact break-in for both. Hydraulic flat tappets
I had the same problem with my 440 build two years ago. The Comp Cam ate 4 lifters, one looked just like the one that you have, concave wore plumb through to hole in the lifter, I found that out at 378 miles when the engine started missing badly and I was 20 miles away from home. tore down and cleaned the engine, ordered and Edelbrock cam/lifter set, got it, opened the box, there is a Comp Cam and Lifters in the box. No way man. Sent it back to Summit, because I tried for 6 freaking weeks to get Comp customer service on the phone the first time. Ordered a Crower, they were the best ever on customer service, Johnson cam saver lifters with the oiling groove down the side. So far, so good. I`m like you, I check everything twice in a rebuild.
I’ve been a mechanic diesel and gas over 30 years. Hot rodding is my passion ,built hundreds of engines on the side for myself and customers. Just watching what you do and your habits I can see you are a great engine builder and have done nothing wrong. It’s offshore metal, such a common problem I won’t do anything anymore unless it’s roller. I had way too many failures not worth the frustration the finger-pointing the stress on the phone with the camshaft manufacture etc. back in the 80s rollers were super exotic nowadays we are getting forced to use them they are a necessity. Sad. I hope everything works out for you.
Still be cautious of lifters. Get made in the US products.
That Cam Dynamics is close to the original Direct Connection "Street Hemi" grind, 284* dur, 228*@.050", .471/.474" lift, 108*LSA. I ran that cam back in the early '80s with zero trouble. Then in the early '90s I built a 383 for a friend with the newer 280*/230*@.050"/474"/110*LSA cam, I didn't like the newer one as much (sound) but it ran great. I used to reuse cams with new lifters all the time, if the original ones got scrambled or were faulty in some way. Have even added new Rhoads lifters to used cams. Used to do this with complete confidence. Broke in MoPar cams with dual springs with +130# seat pressure with the inner springs intact, never left them out for break in. I always used to use 30w or 10w-30 oil with EOS (sulfur/zinc rich) until MoPar discontinued it and then I bought the same stuff from the Chevy dealer up the street until they discontinued it (way later). Then I used Valvoline Durablend "EOS" from Advance Auto Parts, but then it went away. Now I use Lucas "TB-Zinc" or Rislone ZDDP additives for break in. Once broken in, the amount of ZDDP in regular (cheap) STP (blue bottle) is enough for daily use. Never have wiped a cam, but man I'm scared with all the pros wiping them and all the proven sh*tty parts (no lobe taper/no lifter crown/inferior materials and hardness, etc.). Frustrating as hell!!
Hi Rodney. You know your Mopar's and thanks for your intelligent reply. This C/D cam is almost a clone of the DC "Street Hemi" grind P3690214. Great moderate street grind as long as you had the compression to take advantage of it's design parameters. It is a real sad state that we are in and "we" the little guys are going to have to fix it. I have some ideas that I will be sharing in future videos. I'm telling potential customers now to just start budgeting money for their builds with the roller camshaft costs factored in. I cannot tear into every engine build after the fact to check for camshaft damage. I had never wiped out a cam until the last few builds. Mind you, I had a stash of old NOS parts ( a ton of stock/Hi Po lifters from an early '90s E-Bay deal! ) that I had collected over the years and I always try to by what I considered the best parts available. Years ago, this just was NOT a problem...ever! Thanks for your reply Rodney. Regards, Tim.
All part of idiocracy? but yeah: build anything these days and you gotta be part chemist part metallurgist. China has not arrived at the mastery of tempering the US had in hand before ww2.
@@flinch622 This has been covered in a lot of places before this. This isn't necessarily a "China" problem. There is a serious lack of real machinist to real work on precision parts like these.
@@davidmiller9485 Parts made in the US are sometimes just as bad. As far as I know this is a lack of proper machining on the cam lobes as well on the bottom of the lifters.
@@MrZdvy I don't disagree with your assessment, my issue is lazy people blaming China when it isn't always China (Not that China doesn't do shit work, they can and do. They can also do good work, but like always it costs more).
Same issue here. Mopar with their respective low rocker ratio and comparatively large lifter were never an issue for cam and lifter failure in the past. We just finished "recamming" a 360 that wiped a few lifters within minutes on the dyno, Gibbs BR oil, instant fire up and right to 3000 RPM, reasonable spring pressure. This was one of Comp's HL hydraulic grinds.
We are now backing away from any FT cam that has "extreme" in it's nature. If you want that level of power, cough up the roller cam money. It's not worth it for us, that 360 failure removed any profit margin in the engine build.
Everything gets break in springs now. (FT cams) It's a time loss, but still much cheaper than the alternative. If we have low ratio rockers, they get used.
Comp HL cams are pretty radical Howards .904 less so Then Engle wear better then DC
For what it is worth, about 8 years ago here in NZ, I was told to my face by the owner of a specialist camshaft machining firm that NO ONE ever carries out any heat treatment of camshafts anymore---and he was supposedly trained in the states----needless to say I have never used him since!
I saw a video of David Vizard explaning how he gets the cams done with an extra hardening process from either/or Howards or comp and harder or toolsteel lifters,,I got lucky with my 350 Holden using a 272 solid Crane cam and lifters .500 lift,,LS1 beehives 95lb seat 285 nose,1.775 instal height,built in 2012 and still running,,probably better metallurgy back then
Hey Just came across your video . I’ve been following all these lifter cam issues across the Big 3 manufacturers. In my opinion it’s not oiling issue. One thing I don’t hear is these same type of issues going on with Toyota and Nissan truck engines. Excellent video
Other CZcamsrs covering this have also discovered newly produced cams have flat lobes instead of properly tapered lobes that induce lifter rotation. It's not only the lack of lifter crown...check everything before you install.
I think that is because now all the "machinists" are just button pushers on a CNC. Back in the day a guy had to watch a dial indicator while he ground the cam.
It is a quality of parts problem !!! Yes oil is different today, but we for sure have plenty of oil available to do the job. I remember over 40 years ago getting a USED Crane Fire Ball cam and lifters from a guy at a different shop that couldn't get the engine to run good. Anyway no lifters were kept in order just in a box. Put it in my 68 Chevelle 327 and drove it over 100,000 with out a problem.
Did basically the same thing with a duntov 30 30. Was in several engines. Lifters all mixed up. Never went bad.
Had the exact issues with a freshly build Olds 455. First set of lifters had two that wouldn't pump up. Removed the cam and lifters, installed new Comp cam and lifters. Gone. Now has a roller cam, but very expensive on the Olds!
The short answer is YUP YOU HAVE TO GO TO A ROLLER CAM. Nobody can make a cam or flat tappet lifters anymore. Especially not Comp Cams. They take zero responsibility for all these engines they are ruining. All the wasted money and time. In this age of having to wait 4 MONTHS for a set of cam bearings for an FE Ford, and I imagine it's bad for any motor except an LS or old style small block Chevy, who wants to do this anymore? This used to be a fun hobby. These cam and lifter companies have taken all the fun and affordability out of it. Comp Cams lifter failure cost me a crankshaft and all the bearings in my FE in November. I'm still waiting for cam bearings. Had to upgrade to a roller cam and of course that means I have to order another set of custom made pushrods. I'm at about $2500 on this re-do since this cam and lifter failure. Thanks Comp Cams!
I'm 61 yrs old & I will No longer use flat Tappet cams because of the same issues, I got about 1100 miles SBF, lifter's keep coming lose, in the end I had 4 bad lifters & cam lobes. I Now only use Hyd Roller Cams, not one problem since I switched. the problem Might be because of the Chinese Metal cam stock, American company's are using today.
It's better now a days to just use a factory roller engine to start with for an engine build. Many small blocks like the sbc and sbf made in the late 1990's were hydraulic roller from the factory you can go to the local pick-n-pull junkyard and get a whole engine from a 1990's pickup truck or suv for $200 in my area. This is what I did for my sbc engine I used a 1999 vortec 350 and sent the roller cam off to a cam grinding company to put a performance grind on it and just reused the old roller lifters as they were still in good shape.
You area great engine builder and I like the way you call it an engine instead of a motor
I'm starting to believe that the root cause of the problem is simply that the cam grinding machines are still set up for roller cams, hence insufficient taper on the cam lobes. I've watched many videos on this subject, including ones where hardness testing has been done on the components. The one consistant issue is bad machining of both cams and lifters. Many people keep blaming the oil, the hardness, the quality of the material, but in almost every case that I have watched, it is nothing more than speculation. That said, Lake Speed Jr talks about his time at Joe Gibbs Racing, and how many flat tappet cams they lost during break in. Another channel that I follow, who grinds cams, showed how bad the radius was a a box of lifters, too much as opposed to insufficient.
I noticed that Comp cam was a CWC core. Even in Datsun OHC engines, those CWC cams are failing.
because CWC uses chinese cores
I see and feel your frustration.
I watched your video from start to finish.
I have had to deal with this, and had customers and or people I know.
The warehouses Will Not Stand behind the parts they sell.
So the engine builder is the bag holder.
The warehouses should stand behind all the parts.
We purchased in good faith that it was quality.
I measure every lobe now for taper and all lifters for convex and or radius.
Use the best break in lube.
I just subscribed to your channel.
Take care, Ed.
Thanks Ed for the moral support. I have some "ideas" I will put forward in a upcoming video. Regards, Tim
You are right on everything, first its the quality of the parts they sell, never seen these problems 30 years ago where i would replace lifters and use the same cam with 100k miles and no problems whatsoever, now the garbage they sell lasts 5 minutes and its trash before the engine warms up ,Johnson lifters is the way to go with a hardened camshaft
The 4.0 liter six cylinder Jeep used until into the 2,000s never had roller lifters. Those things are still running around on today's oils and they never recommended zinc additive in the owner's manual. Definitely something else going on! I'm not so sure that all the additives people are Willy Nilly mixing in with oil now is a good thing either. But I don't really know! Got a 273 and 318 sitting here they'll be running this spring. Didn't go with the more aggressive cam profiles I would've liked to, hopefully that helps. Maybe loosing a few potential HP for longevity does the trick.
Lower perf ft cam setups with non aggressive love profiles & low to moderate spring rates/pressure can live on todays low zinc oil & why your low perf ft motors didn’t have cam/lifter issues.
It’s when you get into the mild to moderate or higher perf ft cam setups with bit more aggressive lobe design with higher spring rates/pressures that todays oil with greatly reduced zddp/anti wear agent lvls can lead to premature FT cam & lifter failure.
@@scottwheaton9689 Most cam failures I've been reading about or watching videos about all seem to have one thing in common. Inevitably they all say the same thing, they used a metric shit ton of zinc. Assembly lube, break in oil with zinc, a bottle of zinc dumped in.
So what I'm seeing looking into this the past couple years is a bunch of car guys, with zero background in oil chemistry of any sort are mixing up concoctions of oil and wrecking cams.
I totally get the bad machining, metal might be wrong, and all that. But I'm starting to wonder if some of the experts saying too much zink is bad, are right?
Anyway I'd just like a straight answer from an oil engineer, instead of a "car guy" answer.
In the old days we hand sanded the bores, swapped lifters, etc. The old junk ran great. What the heck happened. Come on man!
Good video enjoyed the logic, I have used only AMSOIL in any flat tappet engine I used and experimented multiple times my own engines selecting used cams with new lifters and extra spring pressures like 160 on the base and 375 on the nose with idle speed 1st 30 minutes operation and it passed the test multiple times using 10W40 AMO AMSOIL lubricant specific for flat tappet engines.
Yeah but who wants to go through the Amsoil bullshit if you can't buy that stuff at the store it ain't worth having.
you got to join the " idiot club " to get hosed with stupid high pricing.
Personally I use Valvoline I always have never had a problem I also add Lucas oil stabilizer especially on my race car never any problems.
Just trying to buy that bullshit amsoil I feel mad ready to spit nails and kick somebody's ass purple no I wouldn't use that purple trash either Not if it was given to me.
But I got a dumb question what would happen if you opened up those lifter bores a bit purposely putting them on a slight angle with the hone in relation to the cam less than .001inch.
I would definitely recheck the lobe taper on the affected lifter lobes Those witness marks(stripes) sure look like insufficient taper to me. Without doing metallurgic testing I can't provide you with much more than that.
Exactly. Not checking for lobe taper and lifter crown and then confirming lifter rotation before installing the intake is like playing Russian roulette.
You poor car guys… I’ve been building Japanese motocycle race engines for years 15 years, taught by a guy that was doing it for 30 years and NEVER have I’ve seen this type of problem or heard about it. We don’t ever check the cam or the bucket because we simply don’t need to. It’s always perfect. Wow is all i can say…
if our v8 engine parts were made in Japan instead of COMMUNIST CHI NA, then we would be in luck.
@@danielslocum7169 Better buy NOS cams and tappets!
I have 2 cams and 3 sets of lifters for an engine I am building and I am afraid to use them. I am going to install a retro roller kit to be safe. This will really set me back in my build and budget.
It took me 5 time of in and out and re-cam a Chev 383 that was going through lifters and cam then on the 5th time going back in the truck a full roller cam system is in the 383 then problem solved.
I spent so much money if I had the first time used the roller cam system I would have been done and using the truck
This is why I only go roller. I specifically hunted down factory roller cam blocks for my builds. Unfortunately thats not possible on those older big blocks.
I hear ya buddy. Its a fact that uality control has gone out the window with both cam and lifter manufacturers. just because you check stuff dosent mean its all gunna be good. eems there is a sentiment out there to push us all towards roller. I dont know if it was planned or not but i think the opportunists are taking advantage of the failing Flat tappet market and trying to lend it a hand to come to a soft demise, Down here in Australia, im like you, a one man show engine builder. I am getting each cam and lifter set gone over by a small oldskool cam grinder shop that puts a matching taper on the cam lobe and lifter. It adds a couple of hundred to do but its worth the cost and effort. Say goodbye to the good'ol days buddy.
Having seen this myself, I noted a new Comp Cam and lifter set showed a cam wear pattern on only one side of the lobe. The lifter has a small radius at new, and the cam should have a small angle across the lobe (from memory about half a thou) which combined causes follower rotation. This can be seen visually when using a small steel rule across the nose of the lobe. Run in is OK thus far, but only time will tell. I am told the new cam's lobes have been "Tufftrided" (Nitrogen surface hardening). I wonder if it is worth doing that to the cam again? This was on a Holden 308 engine here in Australia, so your troubles are not only on Mopars, they are industry common it would appear.
We are in the "malaise era" for automotive components, especially for anything not current. I started seeing this cam/lifter issue really get bad over 5 years ago, and no, it's not the oil....Heck, in the 1940s and '50s normal oils had even less zinc and other anti-wear additives than current "low emission" oils do. I noticed "CWC" cast on your failed camshaft in the box. Cannon, Wyant, and Cambell foundry supplied the Detroit big three (Plus the independents) with millions of ferrous castings since prior to the 1920's. Most of the aftermarket cam grinders also depended on CWC cores right up to this day. With over 100 years of supplying the industry, the metallurgy should be fine....but, no oems' use cast iron flat tappet cams anymore, and all other applications for ferrous castings have been drastically reduced. So, I guess the lack of having to mass produce high quality castings for huge oems' (and guarantee quality) has lead to this, as the just ship out much smaller volumes to aftermarket cam grinders / vendors who also don't need to warrantee new cars !! They just don't care.
Funny enough, my 1927 Hudson super six has "CWC" block and head castings, but a roller cam ! From the factory in 1927 HaHa!
I think the same can be said for the low production runs of flat tappet lifters that go on them as well.
@@yurimodin7333 Absolutely right!
I build import cars and we don't seem to be having any quality issues over on our end of the spectrum and there doesn't seem to be too many quality issues with parts for LS engines or other modern stuff either. It seems that the majority of the issues are coming from parts made for old school pushrod engines. Back in the day when OEM's used flat tappet's the quality had to be guaranteed so it was there but once the oem's stopped and the supply of all the old stuff dried up the quality went down the toilet.
I can tell you right now there's nothing wrong with that engine block, there's no consistency in lifter wear between your two sets of lifters, in the Mellings were all spinning, even the tore up one. If you go to Uncle Tony's channel, he makes a good video about how bad lifters are being made today. Brand new, out-of-the-box, with no taper on the face at all, the edges of the face lower than the center. Right out of the box! I just did a lunati voodoo cam, in a 302 and I got lucky. But there's been an awful lot of problems with lifters everywhere. They must have been built by Google's speech-to-text engine because it sucks as well. I had to edit this five times, because Google keep changing what I said.
This happens to me also. I posted this/these videos and have had many of my comment "replies" edited/eradicated by youtube. Complete bullshit and illegal against the "1st amendment" of the Constitution of the United States of America. And these fat, bloated and ignorant slugs (these "stupid" consumers) that call themselves "citizens" do nothing! Where does this road lead too?
You are correct it is case hardening. Tempering of the product.
There has been a long wait for cams since 2022, big back log. When things like this happen steps get missed and compromises happen. Comp cams isn’t immune.
Need to have a class action lawsuit against comp cams until they stop screwing people over or go out of business
I am building a 4.3 GM right now the customer insisted in comp cams parts and I have had nothing but trouble with everything we got from them. Never again will I buy it install a damn comp camps product. Now I guess I can expect this cam to go flat on the build too.
@@cygnus1965 buy a cam from howards
@@cygnus1965 Install what the customer wants. If they insist on Comp Cams let them know there will be NO warranty! I have had bad luck with Comp Cams and I refuse to use any of their products. I did rebuild another engine for my 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme and I did convert it to a roller cam. The only thing from Comp is the cam button. I'm sure that will be the only thing to fail. I just rebuilt the 305 in my 1987 Chevy P/U. I am using an Edelbrock flat tappet cam and lifters with Driven break in oil. The engine is in and I am hooking everything up now. I am nervous about how it is going to go. I have rebuilt many engines and never had a cam and lifter failure. Take care .
@@cygnus1965 Lunati and Edelbrock are also comp cams owned! Beware!
Back in the mid 80's I had a Camaro drag car. I've had issues with bad cam bearings before on a SBC causing similar wear issues on the lobe and lifters. I don't know if your issue is related to what mine was but a few of my lifters were trashed like yours. My camshaft was wearing on one side of the lobe much more than the other. I'd used shimmed Z28 springs and had previous problems in other SBC engines with soft stock cams and lifters wearing out prematurely but the camshaft in this one was a Crane so I figured the cam wasn't at fault or soft. I replaced the cam bearings in the block, replaced only the bad lifters with new ones and I found the lifter/cam lobe wear problem went away. The next disassembly was a couple of months later to salvage what internal parts I could from the engine (it went), the camshaft had taken a hit from a piece of a rod and it was also broken, but the wear pattern was perfect on the cam and lifters. Saved and reused those lifters on a used cam. Budget racing then. New Cam bearings in the block corrected my issue.
Hi and thanks for the comment. The cam bearings are new and I rechecked these cam bearings when I removed this camshaft from this 440. "B" & "RB" Chrysler big blocks are notorious for a slight "core shift" with the camshaft bores machined into the block from the factory. I do the LA small blocks cam bearing install, but I don't like doing the BB's! This 440 block and all my rebuilds get new cam bearings and the camshaft that I am using, is supplied to my machinist so he can fit "THAT" cam to "THAT" block. If the cam is suspected of being bent or questionable, the cam is mounted in a fixture then measured at each camshaft journal for run out and/or straightness. Also, the cam bearings are installed and measured (with THAT camshaft) "one at a time", this way if there is any binding or tight spots, that individual cam bearing (say bearing #3) can be clearanced instead of guessing which cam bearing it is if you installed all 5 of them at the same time, then measured for clearance and checked with the camshaft. It's the experience gained when working on BB Chrysler's for a long period of time. There was only one time that I had camshaft bearings "pounded out" on a 440 (all 5), and it was never determind as to "why" (it was not excessive V/S loads or lack of oil pressure!). Long story short, the camshaft bearings are fine and this Cam/Dyn camshaft is not bent.
@@metalmaxmopar9520 I hope these cam makers are not buying their steel from China.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes sadly from China, India and Bolivia
I am 76 and it took until the 4th cam to get one that worked. This only happened as a result of going to a diamond like coated (DLC) lifter from Comp Cams. I learned about these from a video on You Tube. This is very new. I called Summit Racing and asked them if I could exchange the new lifters with the new replacement cam with the DLC coated lifters. They are only about $15.00 more than a stock set of lifters. This is a plasma coating. It is almost as hard as a diamond and is carbon based so it is also slippery. It seems that when the lifter cannot wear the cam properly breaks in. Comp Cams had independent testing done and no matter how fast or how much spring pressure it did not care. They also abused it on break in on the spintron and again it did not care it just properly broke in.
ASK FOR DLC COATED LIFTERS WITH YOUR NEXT FLAT TAPPET CAM.
I gratefully thank Summit Racing for their support during this nightmare involving total lack of quality control obviously.
They are having these issues in production trucks too. It's systemic, the country has forgotten how to do things right, and doing things right may be more difficult or time consuming for production. It's a shame and I hope these industries are collaborating on their issue, I really do. I've had these issues as of late, last 5-6 years and it's frightening.
its not the country thats the problem. its the manufacturers. everything comes from china and they dont care. some years back they bought up the worlds scrap metal and mixed in their cheap bad metal and all metal is down to garbage at this point. about 10-20 years ago when everything started going over seas was the start of this whole problem. hell almost every new part on new cars come from china and its part of why they have so many failures before 100k miles.
I subscribed to see how this ends up with the Johnsons.
I'm rebuilding a Buick 350 right now for a sporty commuter type of build. I stressed over cams (just hot street cams mind you) for nearly 2 months because of this lifter striping situation. Before I even knew what was going on, this engine has worn through a Comp Cams kit and a Schnider ground TA cam with Crane lifters. The problem has mostly been on the driver's side and could have some correlation to Buick's oiling system and a poor first rebuild. But I'm hoping that another cam and Johnson lifters straight from TA (the only big Buick aftermarket specialist left) and some oiling improvements will stop the TAP TAP TAP. Because a roller cam and lifters is going to be a difference of over $1,100 USD minimum. IF I can even get a cam.
I have built big block and 426 HEMI engines over the years and have used Lunati, CompCams and Mopar Perf. Cams. The only lifters I will use are Mopar Performance Lifters both solid and hydraulic flat tapped. Nock on wood I have never had a cam failure. I rebuilt a HEMI last year and changed from a solid flat tapped to a hydraulic. The old cam and lifters that came out of the engine were in excellent condition. Showed very little wear. The cam was a CompCam with Mopar performance lifters. I have been buying up several sets of the Mopar Performance Lifters for future use.
I’ve built a few engines now, never had this problem until post-covid when I built up my dads 350 out of his 78 K20 4WD as a surprise gift to him for Christmas last year 2022. That Sbc didn’t last past 15 minutes of the cam break-in before it started making not-so-nice noises. Yanked the valve covers and half the rockers were loose as a goose! Snugged them down more, ran it another 5/6 minutes and the clatter came bk again! Off come the valve covers A SECOND TIME! More loose rockets. Snugged them down AGAIN! Few more minutes if runtime before they loosened yet again. This time I was at the bottom of the threads on the rocker studs and knew I had troubles!
Pulled the intake; looked like lithium grease in the lifter valley. Saw several lifters unusually LOWER in their bores. Started pulling lifters and saw the same crap as you; half of them were ground to a slant on their bottoms. UNBELIEVABLE! Luckily I bought the cam kit through Summit who warrantied it w/o an issue.
From what I heard through other vids on CZcams of other engine builders is that all the major cam manufacturers in the good ol’ U.S. of A all use lifters from only one or two lifter manufacturers here in the states (was shocked. Thought Comp, lunati, etc all made their own lifters. Apparently they don’t. They get their lifters from one or two US companies. And during covid those sources went dry of their supplies and ran out due to lack of labor during the pandemic. So these cam manufacturers pulled from…you guessed it! CHINA 🇨🇳! They got their lifters from CHI-NA, as Trump says it. And you know those lifters are JUNK! No proper heat-treating from their garage, as you also said. So now the question is; just how many of these junk Chinese lifters are still floating around on the shelves of all these cam companies and big box stores like Jegs and Summit?!?! Enough to make you cringe at the thought of doing a cam swap now that isn’t roller, tell ya that much! It’s all a shame. And too swap cams out of these older engines isn’t too too bad in itself but when the engine gets grayish, metal paste infused oil pumped all through its oil galleries and there’s now a necessary tear-down in order and bearings now need to be replaced that’s a whole different matter and bigger issue!
I've been using worn valve springs for break in and let it cool overnight , to install the new springs. Wiped out a Saturday Night Special cam and started doing this. Used to re use old cams with new lifters and never had a problem.
Roller seems to be the safest bet these days. I recently built a 350 Chevy for my son in law with a stock cam and lifters using name brand parts. Cam failed with about 30 minutes run time. Did the break in and everything. So he cut his loses and went with a later roller long block and life's good now. It is what it is. I built engines years ago and never broke in one cam. No problems.
Damn this problem, you clearly have good experience and knew about the issue and checked everything beforehand. What the hell is happening?
I see a comp cam that was ground too flat on the lobe ramps and base circle. Normally a cam wears to the side so the lifters keep spinning. Maybe the hardening on the cam was bad and it wore out the taper immediately, but it looks to me like the lifters never did ride to the side of the base circle. I'd measure it. It should be more than the measured crown on the lifter face. I think I'll start measuring my stuff more now too.
So many things this could be.
I do have a Question. You say you’re using high zinc oil which is great. But does the oil also contain the high levels of modern detergents? Could the detergents be washing the zinc from the mash surfaces? I’m asking, not telling.
Had a sealed power that wiped out 1 lobe the other 11 were fine. I let it idle during break in. Got a melling used full bottle of Lucas zinc. Ran about 2500 rpm for about 30 minutes. Left the zinc in for 1800 miles. About 1300 miles too long. So far the cam and lifters are doing good. The one lobe on the bad cam wore a lot and the lifter dished like a cereal bowl but was very smooth as if it were made that way. I used stp in the oil on both. Smelling thought my problem on the first one was that I let it idle. Also no zinc added on the first one. I say the problem was me.
I just watched a report on how recycled metals were adding a much higher percentage of garbage metal then they should be. Standards are lax. It's not just lifters though I've been battling this for months with multiple different types of car parts
I was wondering just what you recommend to do after this happens? I just had the same thing happen to me on one lobe the lifters where new and doesn’t look all that bad. However the #5 intake lode lost 0.110 off the nose. I can not find any metal shavings. I have pulled two mains and one Rod bearing for inspection and they look fine. Do you recommend pulling the entire engine apart after this happens? The engine was rebuilt 3000 miles ago and ran fine until I did a cam shaft swap-out.
Thank you for any advice. Jeff
What engine are you running Jeff? As I see it the first place to check is the oil pump. Here is why, the oil pump would be the "first" damaged component from camshaft/lifter "debris" as it sucks up "unfiltered" oil. If the oil pump shows no metal contamination damage, chances are the rest of the components, (main & rod bearings, crank machined surface are "post" oil filter and the oil is "filtered") are damage free also. That's an ASSUMPTION, the only way to know is to check an few main and rod bearings for confirmation. You already did this procedure, so "NO", to a complete engine tear down. Hope this helps. Regards, Tim.
Have been watching Nicks Garage for a good while. He has built several 426 Hemi's and 440 engines recently using Bullet Cams and Mellings flat tappet hyd. lifters. The engines have had up to 30 dyno runs and no issues yet with cam failure. What is he doing right? I have built engines back in 70's-80's with flat tappets and like you say never had a problem back then. Now I use hyd. rollers in my Ford engines.
Bullet cams.
Im on my 2nd flat tappet cam in my 318. I went with howards cams and lifters. It has made it past the 20 minit break in. Thats better than the first cam from summit did. If this dont last ? Ima re install the old factory cam. Maybe find a junkyard 360 ?
Once a "Flat Pattern" develops across the lifter face, the lifter will probably "Lock in" to the cam Lobe & No further Rotation possible, & certain Lifter/cam lobe destruction.....On a Normal, Good running engine, is lifter Rotation Continuous or only During low lift/value Seated conditions ??......Should Lifter Rotation be checked under Full valve spring loaded pressure or on the Break-in spring load ??....On this Specific engine issue, what Malfunction Initiated or Started the Failure Cascade events ?? ....Inequate Lubrication/Oil quality Friction additive breakdown Failure, Initial lifter Non-Rotation binding under running spring psi, Or Inequate cam Lobe or lifter Face Hardness issues ?? One single Initial failure Point probably Cascaded & caused the Total worn parts condition.....Should both Cam lobes & Lifter Faces be Rockwell hardness Tested Before assembly & start up ??.....Are the new, non-Coated, cast cam Compatible "Tool Steel" lifters a Better lifter choice ??
Great video! As you know, some people will call you a liar and a poor excuse for an engine builder, but some of us know the truth. It's not oil delivery, it's not zinc, it's quality control. You have discovered a few results from bad heat treatment and tolerance inaccuracies. The flat tappet cams and lifters of today, are junk. One must either buy high end parts or go with rollers and check EVERYTHING! Here's what builders have found with bad cams: zero crown, bad tolerances on the diameter, and plunger components on hydraulic lifters. Bad lifters will not spin or pump up; and will leak down in seconds. The cams are not ground correctly. The lobes don't have the .0005" relief on the edges and both have failed hardness testing. Your local cam grinder will prove this out. Yes it's expensive and there is no cure other than buy U.S.A. and pay up. Oh! and buy through your cam grind shop, they'll do a prebuild check.
Thanks Lawrence, for your supportive and kind comment. By the contents of your comment, you are informed (I assume without knowing you) with "real hands on experience" in dealing with this issue. You are correct in the "assessment" of being questioned with what I call the "basic's" of engine building knowledge and called and "idiot", "old school engine moron" amongst many other "labels" by some of these commenters.
The "anger", "frustration" and pure "vitriol" of some of these people is palpable and bewildering! Key board warriors?...."Porn Hub" subscribers not getting the "relief" that they pay for?...For Christ sake's its a piece of metal I'm talking about, I'm not giving a lecture or techniques on how to drown baby kittens!
Kind regards, Tim.
Elgin cams are pretty good never had a flat lobe or faulty tappet!
I watched the video again and have Another question. Did you say you are using a 110lb spring for breakin? On a few forums I’ve read that builders use breakin springs with less than 100lb during breakin to avoid wiping lobes and then switch to the normal spring to run the engine after breakin. Have you tried lighter springs for breakin?
Thanks for the comment Kary. The trouble as I see it is this, if it is a "metallurgical/chemistry" issue, or a post "heat treatment" issue, the metals are "soft" (period!), low tension valve springs just "delays" the camshaft and or lifter failure. You cannot "work harden" the cam/lifters contact areas with low tension valve springs / low ratio rocker arms. Instead of the Cam/lifters being wiped out on "break in" (as happened on the 440 "six pack" engine in less than 10 minutes), they are wiped out over a longer period of time in "normal" operation/driving. This is what's happening "today" with too far to many "professional" engine builders and with the general hobbyists. {These "professional" shops know how to build engines, like me they have been doing this for decades!}
This '68 440's cam & lifters would have failed over time (days, weeks or months?). A 10 to 20 lbs difference in seat pressure (from 110 lbs to 90 lbs and or "low ratio" rocker arms) would make no difference at all to a correctly manufactured cam/lifter assembly. Why?....because it never did in the past. My 35 + years "experience" in engine building tells me so (this is the same with all the "professional" engine builders)....I have "broken in" dozens and dozens of FT cams/engines with 130 lbs V/S seat pressures with never a problem. My example in the video ask this "question"? It's the same questions I posed to the Comp Cams warranty department.
If it's the zinc based "oils", why don't ALL 16 lifters show the same signs of wear? Same oil splashing all 16 lifters and lobes! Same 40 minute running time, same valve spring loads. Why only 4 lifters, or 2, or 6? Never all "16" lifters. Right? You tube is full of these examples. My prediction: Roller tappet "wheels and needle bearings" will be the next major area of failure. Seeing this already.
This is a not a "recent" quality control problem and it's every where....with consumer "electronics", "appliances", "drugs", "clothes", "fabrics", "shoes" and now even with our "food". The "reality" from my perspective:....it's 35 years of "FREE TRADE" putting "profits" above everything else. Regards, Tim.
Would you share with us which oil was used? Brand and exact type.
isky lifters are still made in the USA and work damn good, but they do charge about double for that. 170+ USD
for a set of 16. with cams its hard to tell nowadays whos good. Im a ford guy so I stick with people like Holman moody cams and nos ford cams. Everyone knows they arent the best for power but they do do a nice job for mild street builds. It sucks not being able to venture out anymore for the risk. I am a mechanical engineer and it would be nice to inspect one of these cams in person to get to the bottom of it. Most likely it is a hardening issue, but ive yet to get my hands on one of my own failing, thankfully.
Doing a small block 340 hyd flat tappet camshaft swap here in Ponoka Alberta. I'm praying it willturn out.
I got the camshaft plasma nitride in Edmonton, hope it might help.
If you haven't confirmed lifter rotation, it would be a good idea to do so even if it costs you an intake manifold gasket set.
Hey!!......A fellow Canadian with the ONLY sensible provincial leader in the country! Did a fairly radical 340 "street" engine for a gentleman in your neck of the woods last fall. Hopefully he has it installed in his 70 'Cuda and running this spring. We went full Hughes roller valve train in that 340. Good luck with yours, Regards, Tim
I’m just about ready to tear my sbc apart and check it. It just doesn’t have the power it should. I also used comp cams for my build. It’s terrible, I don’t care how much you spend your going to have problems with the cam and lifters. I wish they would quit using China for their cams and lifters. Such a shame.
Get a Sig Erson cam or an Elgin both have no problems so far
Even roller lifters are having failures due to what appears to me from 30 years in a mettalurgical laboratory very poor metal, probably high carbon steel vs the older high alloy steel.
I have a 318 and a 360 I tore down. While starting to put back together an ol fella let me know about this problem and there still sitting there tore apart till I figure it out
High spring pressures & windage tray blocking oil spray on break in?
I used to repair water chillers with GM SBC power and the cams were always the weak link
As the big three convert to electric expect things to get worse. The quality control demanded by OEM keeps the hotrod community in readily available, affordable cam cores. As that mass production goes away so will affordable access to good cam cores. If you have projects planned for the future buy the rough ground cores now and lay them back.
I use tool steel lifters in Air cooled VW's because of the off shore parts were getting now.
It looks as both cams wiped 4 lifters? Same 4? Are you checking lifter bore tolerance? I always used light springs to break in any cam that wasn’t a roller. Must be frustrating you should not have to take that step.
It’s not in the metallurgy. It’s in the lobe taper and the taper of the bottom of the lifter. You have to check every lobe for taper. And set every lifter on a sheet of clean glass and check to see if they rock. Many of the Name brands are shipping flat bottom lifters. Not only do they not rock “right”, you can literally see where they’re machined wrong. If the machine swirl marks cross the center of the lifter it’s not right. Correct lifter faces have a swirl from outside coming into a “point” in the middle on which it rocks. Many, many name brand lifters are not right these days. I’m using Rhoads Lifters exclusively. And I pay full boat for them. They’re the only ones to not let me down. The videos on the Rockwell hardness and metallurgy have been done. It’s not the metal. It’s the grind. Go get a set of Summit or Jegs small block lifters and slap them on glass, rock them and they all be different. You’ll see! After I check my stuff. You know what I do? Dump in the VR1 hig zinc oil and fire it up with 340 lbs spring on it, rev it in for a few minutes and haul ass! Just like back in the day. I don’t do all the voodoo! Because that’s what it is! If it’s right it’s right. If it’s not… ALL the break in spring, break in oil, hokey-pokey BS ain’t gonna save it! And, I will not be bullied into building roller motors! I’m a Pontiac man. I see what they do. It costs $2k. You gotta “create a valve train” and the roller or pins fail or they just bust out the lifter bore entirely. Rollers aren’t a magic bullet. I’ll find what I need somewhere! Like Rhoads! They build badass lifters! And Smith Bros. rods. Etc. It’s still out there brother. You just gotta fight for it, check it, science it and then… go! I’m sorry this happened to you. It ain’t right. Keep fighting and know you’re not alone. Don’t ever give up or give in! That’s exactly what they want! That want that “POS” gone and a Chinese electric car in its place! Don’t let ‘em win! 😅
Elgin cams pro stock and lifters are fine and still affordable!
Just an observation, on the lifter pockets you dot marked in yellow marker take notice, if you look on the cylinder block wall above the marked lifter pockets, the block walls have a blue sheen apx 1-2" square (heat splash?) as if heat scored by the oil or what ever slung off by the marked off lifter??? Its hard to see with the videos however, some of these have a larger area of this "blueing" than others. Almost the same bluing like an oil starved rod has on the big end of a rod? Im not saying its oil starvation just curious over the lack of blueing that isnt over the none problem lifters. Take a sample of oil from the bottom of pan and smear on a clear glass and backlight the panel of glass, what is the color of flake IF any? So many questions. Do you think we need to Cryo and Nitride before break in like we used to do Ring and Pinions? I dont know what it is yet, watch it be something stupid simple. 40 years in the automotive and machine field however something looks too familiar yet cant draw it up from this bucket.....
I always use low ratio rockers or light springs for break in, not had a failure in over 30 years. Metals are alot softer today
Nope.
Flat tappet cams are in cahoots with the green New Deal... Well don't feel to safe with hydraulic roller. I just had two roller lifters in my ZZ block that never went over 3k RPM collapse no longer pumping up took cam out. Cost over twice as much to replace.
Spot On. Go with what works.
Proper break-in procedure is explained in the 1957 Chevy shop manual. Most "mechanics" are clueless to the procedure. 40 +years ago we discovered the cause of SBC cam failure, two things in particular are clearly evident as being causal. Idle speed being too low, SBC cam oiling was basically splash oiling, low RPM low oil splash and piss poor cam engineering, narrow lobes being one, (also quality control) they only cared about lasting long enough to fulfill warranty liability. One of the things they did in the 80's was to raise idle, put a switch on steering box, so at full lock it boosted the idle, also boosted idle with a/c on. We sold/installed camshafts frequently on vehicle that sat and idled, oil well pumpers, delivery people, anyone who left vehicles idle for extended periods, jack the idle a bit change oil regularly, no problems.
I hear good things about Howard cams have you try them ?
Did you check the cam for taper? Check the lifters for convex? Did you measure anything before you put the cam in?
it would be interesting to rock well the cam and lifters to test there hardness or lack of . the Q C of parts sucks these days take piston ring most of the time never had to file them but now with Hastings rings 75 + % time have to file them
made in India or China....
Im running a Hughes cam and lifters.. .627/640 lift and running 140/400 lb aprox springs and haven't had any issues in a 514 mopar..
I installed a comp cam in my 327 build last year and whiped it out in 20 minutes. I'm scared to buy another one for $350 but I don't know what to do either.
@Outfits Garage a good place to start is to not use a Comp cam and lifter set. Try Isky or a Howards cam, anything but Comp.
@@kennywhiddon1497 10/4. I'll definitely look at another company
Comp Cam's blanks are soft steel. Seen a few wipe out within low miles! OEMs cams are substantially harder steel. Other aftermarket vendors use cam blanks of hard, long wearing steel.
@@xxxxxxxxxx6903 thanks for the info 👍
@@outfitsgarage88 , No problem! Back in the day before they chapter-11'ed and got sold a few times Crane made top tier camshafts. Maybe not the latest and greatest computer generated lobe profiles, but never saw one fail like the Comp units! 👀
metalurgy is one issue and lubricant quality is the other factor, so what lubricant was used? Watching video now gathering data.
There is a big difference in the quality of the iron ore used in making steel. Just like the different base oils used to make engine oils. With our current technologies we can use the lower quality ores and modify them to mimic the characteristics of a better ore. But just like hydro cracking of oil into lighter fuels it is not as stable as a natural high quality oil which takes a very long time to stabilize into what it is. It is Location,Location Location when it comes to the quality of the ore.
This is 3/24/24 and I have a year on a Chev stroker 383 with 5 times in and out of the truck with the exact same cam - lifter fails.
On the 5th time the engine going back in the truck the 383 got a full roller cam system to stop this crazy problem.
Each time the cam & lifter failed I never got the truck out of the driveway only max 10 minuets of running wiped out cam & lifters.
I ordered a cam kit from Comp over two months ago and it hasn’t come in. Edelbrock who owns them now tells me the lifters are back ordered. All these manufacturers are have issues producing product, I thinks it’s the billet cores that likely come from china that are the issues. They say made in USA but don’t think their raw material is good leading to these problems or lack of stock.
Are camshafts hardened after grinding or before
Did you break in the cam with 330 lbs on the nose of the lobe?
Did you use a zddp break in oil?
Have you thought of no oil getting to cam bearings
It's 2 things: Incorrect lifter face grind and incorrect taper on the cam lobes. Mostly the lifters are all bad. There are no more good flat tappet lifters available to buy anywhere, period. The name on the box is irrelevant. What do I do? Hydraulic roller cam if at all possible. It's not that much more even with the custom push rods. Hughes is good. Next: I hoard NOS flat tappet cams and lifters. I'm never able to buy 16 lifters at once, but I've always managed to make a set after a while.
Back in the '80's we used to replace worn, factory small block Chevy cams left and right. The boss had us put in parts store cams and lifters, change the oil and then "Go drive it around. " We'd take it to lunch, go to the store, whatever, 10 miles or so, and that was it. Never had a problem.
I just built a slant 6 for a guy. He wanted Comp Cams version of the Hyper-Pak cam. I made him buy NOS lifters. I used lots of moly lube on the cam lobes, Joe Gibbs Driven break in oil, 20 minute normal break in. He's now got 4000 miles on the motor. So far so good. I would have made him put in a roller but none were available.
However cm dynamics is a profile for an .842 lifter o it has to work harder to match a .904 lifter profile Street Hemi grind Street Hemi is obsolete but would still have less pressure lifter to cam and may have more area under the curve
back in the 70s you could take used lifters and cam and never have a problem . The oil must be #$%^&*
So how is this possible? Are they not getting it all in the oven or not into a quench fast enough? Is the ovens charts off? Is it someone trying to flame harden? Oh this is something that is going to drive me as a machinist and someone who has extensive h.t. and metallurgy knowledge crazy. If you’re able to get to the bottom and absolute cause please reach out and let us know, I can’t be the only one.
Maybe these companies need an open letter from engine builders in the USA, be it a pro or backyard mechanic. Maybe get that letter published through somebody. Maybe that will wake some companies eyes and they will dig in their production facilities to see if they have issues. Just a simple letter. Also we should know if a product is built and engineered 100 percent in America with zero outside influence, no foreign metals, no foreign hired help, just all American from step A to Z. You can't make trash to get it out the door, if a price needs to be needled up a bit for it to be done right then that's what the market is for that specific product.
@@iq6840 You do realize that the people who are selling you these junk parts are Americans right? The problem is with American business owners who are so incompetent (i.e Frauds) that they feel as if engineering of components isn't top priority.
I'm sure you remember the 1980's Japan vs USA trade war because "Made in the USA" product quality was so bad compared to the Japanese stuff that took away sales from American firms. All of it was foreign steel and foreign engineers. Americans sell trash too and Americans buy it because its "Made in the USA".
You'll find that nobody cares about nationalism in industrial production. People will buy from anywhere as long as they have HIGH QUALITY, meeting spec.
@@iq6840 Most companies are owned by Chinese investors who dont care
@@Schlipperschlopper I know it's crap.
there are loads and load of potential issues with camshaft wear. My advice, I only use and install rollers, I just don't want the headaches.
Check Radii on base of new lifters, correct to 2 degrees radii, should rotate when you bar engine over before installing intake manifold
It appears somewhere along the line, someone chose to cut corners. Heat treating not sufficient. Carbon content too low.
i pass true 3 cam in the last 2 years in my 440 , exact same problem.... iam now waiting for the roller kit that cost 3000 cad and and not sure the oem push rod will fit
Hi Baja. The OEM push rods will NOT fit. They are too long. The Retro roller lifter is approx. 3/4" (.750") taller than flat tappet lifters. In some cases, block grinding for lifter clearance is required. "B" & "RB" engines will need a 3 bolt cam gear and a "Cam Button" mounted in the end of the camshaft to prevent camshaft "walk" as it wants to wind/walk its way forward and out of the block. Add the ADDITIONAL costs up; "custom" length push rods, "3 bolt" timing chain, camshaft "button" and twice the labor time for an install as the "button" requires 0.010"/0.015" clearance between the buttons nose and the timing chain cover. This is NOT small block Chevy land! Regards, Tim Muzak
The problem is that Comp Cams is not owned by hotrodders anymore. Comp is owned by Industrial Opportunity Partners. It’s all about money and moving a lot of product. Buy your cams from a small cam grinder like Bullet Cams.
Elgin is also very good!
Comp Cams DLC lifters. The coating seems to stand up. We had rockwell hardness testing done and found most reputable brands were very soft. After losing 5 engines(doing all the right stuff) we were tearing our hair out. So far the new DLC lifters seem to work. We go for the lightest springs we can for break in and running in oil is important too. R
Thank you for the info. It just bothers me purchasing more product from a company that refuses to deal/resolve the "original" issue of machining, heat treating the FT lifter face. Then they come out with a "coating" for a much higher cost that "resolves" the lifter wear problem. We are all being played for suckers.
Doesn't Comp sell nitrided cams and lifters?
great vid.
Big Thx for putting up this Disturbing video.....I never or Heard of anyone around had any FT Cam or Lifter wipe-outs back in the '60's & '70's using pretty stout 150 psi Seat / 375Psi Lobe spring rates Without using any special oil (Break--in oil Unheard of) Just Liberal smear of Moly Disolfide paste on the Lobes...... Maybe you could get your Bad parts RW hardness Tested to Know if bad Metal Heat Treat is contributing to the problems......Some builders have Reported RW hardness Testing dozens of most Populat brand Cam lobes & Lifter faces & Not Finding any out of spec Soft parts.....Assuming Lobe Taper & Tappet face Convex dimensions are correct, & Good oil is used,.....What's the Chances of Good normal FT break-in ??
I have a ritual i go through for doing flat tappets. never had one go bad. many over 300 over the nose. no nitride on the cam and no special hard bottom lifters. engines out there for years. I ran the Engine Masters Challenge a few times when we had to run flat tappets....650" lift, high ratio rockers and heavy valve train..no problems im in Ontario Canada
Hi Dale. Where in Ontario are you Dale? I'm in Hamilton, send me an email as I like to "chat" with you. Kind regards, Tim Muzak
Metalmaxmopar@gmail.com
so whats your ritual???
OK! YOUR GOING TO LOVE THIS!
The issue is the modern oil is missing the ZINC! no bull here!
all you need to do is add some lucas breakin oiland run it in every oil chang a few oz when you break in your cam add the whole bottle to the break in oil!
im 57 I have been building e
mopar for 35 yrs trust me its the lack of zink killing the lifters and cam!
the zinc makes a cusion that the modern oil cant do! use zink
lucas oil breakin oil in any auto parts store in the corner with the additive s and grease
check me back affter you try it
😇😀
Check the depth of the cam into the cam tunnel, per lobe location to deep, to shallow, may keep lifters from rotating, cam bearing oil hole Dia for oil amounts to lifters , break in with silver never sieze on cam and only lifter bottom.