We're Back Baby - The Old World Discussion
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- čas přidán 5. 02. 2024
- In this video we discuss what's coming up on the channel and my thoughts around The Old World.
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Loving that you'll be doing some Old World! Don't worry about being "late to the party". Many of the battle reports on YT so far have been... Rushed.
Literally not even watched an Old World bat rep yet for precisely this reason - no way they can be the standard I prefer.
Looking forward to having a cuppa tea with Stos and the gang now :D
There are a couple decent ones but too many like 40k players that never played fantasy got the stuff from GW and are doing pretty garbage vids.. Don´t bother. Go for real fans. Stos will do good stuff.
While I truly appreciate all the effort that goes into creating this type of content; I never realized how truly spoiled we were with the quality of your Battle Reports until I started watching some of the more recent content capitalizing on the Old World release (and that is not intended in anyway as a dig to the other channels). Thanks for all that you do and look forward to 2024! Also, "I enjoyed the mini game of *magic*"-Stos, 7:26; Borek Thunderbrow, "that's a grudging"!
Thanks so much mate! High praise indeed!
PS. Please don't hurt me Borek!
I agree. very well done.
Thanks my dude!!! 6th Ed player for life. I’m jacked about the old world
This is great news. Whatever you play will be fine.
So good to hear a balanced and reasonable voice commenting on this subject.
Glad to see you back, mate.
Also...
"Games Workshop has been very open about the fact that Dark Elves, Skaven, Vampire Counts, Daemons of Chaos, Ogre Kingdoms, Lizardmen, and Chaos Dwarfs won't be supported in The Old World after an initial PDF detailing rules for old units."
No thanks, I'll pass on TOW. 6th Edition for life.
EDIT: Typo.
Nice to see you are keen on giving the Old World a go and I think it is totally valid to not consider using spacer trays or rebasing particularly if both armies are set up on original bases.
As a fellow Aussie I also feel your pain for the delay in Old World. Fingers crossed we don’t have a long wait from now
That was a very good grumble....the old longbeards would be proud!! All the best for the new yeah!
I have been using spacer trays for my guys for years now, just great to transfer old armies to the old world
Looking forward to whatever you produce! It's always the standard to which I hold other battle reports.
Wow, thanks heaps mate!
TOW is pretty much a 6th edition replacement. It's like 6,5th edition with the push back system and magic changed. I don't see any reason going back to 6th unless you dislike the pushback, instead of pretty much auto flee and the magic system. It also has the 8th edition units in, so more units.
The magic's problem isn't the 2D6 rolling. The issue is the wizard level scaling, dispel ranges and bonuses. Those house ruled to be more reasonable and it's a good system.
Agree with you, TOW looks so promising. Am for sure leaving 6th behind and investing in this new game. More players, supported, i even managed to have enough motivation to rebase my 80s chaos force. Soon a game, will definitely post on FB some pictures and feeback.
Good to have you back. Really looking forward to seeing your new videos in the coming year.
Stoss, glad to see you, you are the best 6th edition fantasy channel out there, love all your videos, a class act and someone who genuinely loves the hobby, all the best my mate, keep doing what you are doing, you are brilliant!!!
I've been wondering where you were!!! I was like where is that super cool dude! New fantasy and no vids. Hope all is well. Can't wait to see watch your future content dude.
Missed these videos!
Can't wait to see what you have in store with the Old World. 😝
Good to see you back - I concur with you on TOW. Haven’t played it yet (got my rulebook, am in UK) but everything I’m seeing and reading is encouraging
My issue with games that do not have pre-measuring is that I straight up cannot judge distances. I can usually get within a factor of 2.
Great to see you back Stos! I am of similar thought - there is no reason to rebase old collections, but new projects will be seeing the new basing (currently starting Tomb Kings). I look forward to seeing your take of ToW battle reports.
Ah! Was just checking your facebook mate! :D Almost worried.. Not really but I wanted to see how your ladz were doing. :D
I am actually glad to hear that there will be more 6th Ed.. :) I like The Old World, i think, but I still love 6th Ed. Also glad that you will try it TOW but also not rule out 6th Ed. I will be here as long as 6th Ed is here. Or TOW too.
Don´t rebase though, use spacers or don´t bother. keep that backward compability. it is no huge deal if you use the old bases anyways!
Agreed on the magic but it is not as bad as it sounded to be honest. it is actually okay! Best of all is the returning models though!
Was glad to see this video and was basically what I was hoping to hear. :)
I´m off re-watching your first vid - again.. ;)
Glad to see you back - loved watching your 6th ed bat reps and they've been a great source of temptation for someone out of the hobby since 6th.
The Old World has finally made me take the plunge after a 21 year break - hope to see some O&G games on the channel as that's what I've started building!
Fantastic to hear that you'll be continuing to cover 6th edition along with TOW!
I got similar gripes to yours with this new edition, so I'm very happy that you'll be continuing to bring us some high-quality 6th content.
Hey Stos, glad you are fine and back! Looking forward to your new content
Glad to hear from you! Have a lovely gaming year.
Thanks my man! 😁
Rock on, brother. Good to cya
Glad you’re back, and glad you’re going to venture into the Old World. I hope you make some Old World content, including the way to explain the rules as you play; that is what makes your battle reports my favorite on CZcams. Take care!
Welcome back my man! Pretty much agreed on every point RE ToW, the only thing that really sticks out for me is magic. Feels more AoS than WHFB which is a shame. Thing is though, the worst case if ToW absolutely tanks is that the ‘stock’ of minis out there goes right back up, and Fantasy can stay alive for many more years to come :)
Stos. Glad to see you back. I genuinely hope you thoroughly enjoy old world. I am a 6th ed fan. Old world is fantastic imo. I played a couple of games lately on SN battle reports and its been alot of fun.
What i would say though, is play a fair few games before coming to much of a conclusion. In my first game i mentioned at the end that i didnt like thr magic system and preferred 6th ed doce pool etc, but after playing more games, i love the magic system in old world.
I genuinely feel that most (not all but most) of the gripes people have with old world is because they are trying to play it like older editions. Its so different. People have to think and manoeuvre differently. Everything has a counter. It is genuinely so muh fun to play as long as its played in the spirit of its intent. People will always find broken stuff. Conga lines are a thing but just house rule no wider than 10 for infantry etc and its fine. Community has house ruled other things like your terrain movement in 6th for example so its no problem.
All the best and hapoy to see you back
Not sure it evben needs house ruling. There should be terrain and multi-charge silly lines.
Really enjoyed your games on SN! You have some Beautiful armies
@@derekgehring2771 thanks very much really appreciate it. If i ever have the chance to travel to the land down under, I would love to get a game in with stos
Oooh Stos, I'm so relieved to hear that you try to stick to 6th edition. I took ages to get a youtube channel which gives the content yours does. I like that you try to give ToW a chance. I did so myself too, but as I'm not a fan of 8th edition, and "more is better", I will be sticking with 6th! Nonetheless ToW (aka 8.5, how I call it) has some nice streamlined things I want to try in 6th as House Rules (movement, and some minor things). I also dislike the new magic phase, as its no real "phase" and despite taking a level 4 you can magic hammer some spells - like keeping back 4-6 level 1 mages for 300 points and spam a support spell. True magic could be abused in 6th, too, but in narrative games most players took 6-9 Powerdice and ~2 dispel Scrolls and that was it. In my humble opinion dispel scrolls should have been limited to 0-1 per 1000 points :D What I truly love about 6th was its "simple" state - specifically the rules from the army books. Most good games are designed by KISS (keep it simple, stupid!). Of course you can cram million of special rules into a game to make units and situations as "real" as possible. But keeping stuff simple makes it better for a Beer and Pretzl game. If I want truly realistic games I wouldn't even touch WHFB, as there are much more complex and better strategy games out there. So 6th it is and will be. But as i said before: I will be watching your steps in ToW and your approach to the new rule set.
P.S. I assume the new battle report will be out on friday?
Kind regards FA
Exciting stuffs! Let's go!!!
Haha what a great intro!!!
Glad to see you back mate.
😁 thanks mate!
Super to hear from you.. cant wait for more great reports..
its good to hear your view on the old world
Looking forward to more from you and your guests :)
So good to see you back!
Good to have you back!
🎶Guess who’s back🎵back again🎶Stos is back🎶with 6th Ed
Looking forward to playing a game of the old world with you, been transferring all my models to the new base sizes. Really like the look of the old world, should be a lot of fun!
Nice to see you again!!!
Yeah! So happy to see that the best Battle Reports channel is gonna do some Old World
You back = me happy. Looking forward to the upcoming content :)
Good stuff coming!!! Hell yeah having u back🤘🏴☠
Happy to see you back!
Glad to see you are back Stos!
The thing about the old world magic system is that lv4 wizard is practically mandatory. Lv2 won't get much spells through against lv4, and dispel those lv4 spells even less. So it forces everyone to take that lv4.
I do also like the system where spells are spread on different phases. When I ponder a charge, I already know if my guys have been buffed by enchantment or the enemy weakened by a hex.
I haven't yet met those dragon lords or other big monsters on the field, since we have played smaller games to get familiar with the rules. But I have read enough horror stories to get me worried.
Only last week I was wondering where you were. Good to hear you're back!
Good to see you back. Look forward to your usual high standard of content!
Hurray, he is back (I was a little bit nervous because of the actually Time-out, don´t use Facebook etc. so I cannot ask, now really relieved that all is o.k. - horrible Englisch, try my best......) I buy at first only the Rulebook (and the Trays for 20 to 25 Baseline). Necromunda, 6th Edition, Painting, Old World makes no difference to me - Main Thing : Stos is the Entertainer of the Video, than all is cool and fine for me 😊
You're a bloody champion mate! Thank you! 😁
Great!!!! Welcome back 🤘🤘🤘
Good to see you dude!
Welcome back! I hope that you finally get your Old World goodies soon. Would be great to see a battle report under the new system and see your thoughts on it after you've played a game. I'm enjoying it so far :)!
So glad to see you are okay! Wellcome back ♥
Great to see you !!! Totally agree, especially when you're learning. Who cares about base sizes
Happy new year, Stoss. Definitely feel your pain on the TOW delays, we're getting hit here in NZ, too. Looking forward to seeing you give it a crack as we go twirling, twirling into the future of 2024.
cool good to hear been loving the channel
Thanks mate! Glad you're enjoying it!
I really hope to see more - 6th edition and old world for me to decide, which I like more as well :D keep it up!
I do not understand the fixation some people have with premeasuring. It sucks without it.
Nice to see you back. I look forward to seeing you play The Old World as you're quite possibly the best in the business when it comes to teaching the basics of the game while playing it. I'll be playing Old World rather than 6th (or 8th) so that suits me though I'll be a bit sad for 6th Ed fans if they don't get any content!
Glad to see you. I was never worried you'd be seduced away from WHFB for Old World, especially the king of editions.
Have you painted anything this year yet?
Will you be going old school with Bretonnians and having a colourful army or one colour across the lot?
Old school all the way mate!
Welcome back amigo!
Really curious how this goes- I'm also not hyped about spacer (aka "ice cube") trays, but we'll see how things go.
Only time will tell my man. But I'm optimistic!
Bout time! Missed ya mate
Nice one Stoss - Nice to see someone that gets the concept of “critical support” when discussing games. I look forward to to seeing your TOW games and any other stuff you’ve doing. Wargamers should play lots of different stuff & encourage a diversity of game experiences for healthy growing game communities.
Welcome back! Looking forward for your batreps😊 I got back to playing cause of TOW! I like the rules so far, even when some houserules will be necessary in our group.
Good to hear mate!
The magic change is one of my favorites, I have never enjoyed the dice mini-game of magic in WHFB. Looking forward to more games, whether they be 6th ed or ToW
Arriving on the 10th at your local FLGS (is the plan).
I played OW on the weekend. The Magic is heaaaps dynamic. Going off all the time. It's super awesome. I get that you don't have the mechanic but the wizards add so much flavour. Can't love it more.
Also you are gonna freaking LOVE hammerers.
I have a few issues to grumble on the old world about but will reserve grumbling too much more until I've played it a few times
looking forward to your upcoming videos though!
7:10 Yknow, I'd love to see optional rules for stuff like this. I wont be mad about a simplified system when this game's original death was caused by a lack of new players. -- This is the perfect opportunity for supplemental rules providing "Mana Dice" and/or more dangerous magic. Personally I loved guessing range for artillery.
Homebrew cometh.
(Edit: More specific wording.)
Looking forward to your ToW video reports.
Welcome back!
Thanks mate!
For working out the template hits, just get a bit of card with a grid of 25x25 squares that you can transfer the template over to, to count up the bases that get touched.
With having to target the centre of a unit it should at least be possible to put together a table that will resolve any direct hits. Obviously you'll still need something like you say for scatter.
Good to see you alive. But spacer trays aren't investment, if they are made out of cardboard)
My Dwarfs have been though quite a Journey, starting there life on 20mm bases as an ebay battle for skull pass steal , moving to 25mm rounds for age of sigmar, then on to Trays for kings of war and now to 25m square ready for Fantasy 😊 where they belong. Glad to see your back dude 🎉
TOW!!!!
😊
Man you old beards are so slow to change 😂
Nice to have you back! Looking forward to more 6th edition in the future and whatever ToW you throw at us would be just a great bonus 😊 I agree with most of your concerns regarding tow, except I personally prefer the new magic system. I played 6th all my life but hated the magic system. It was a "who can mass the largest dice pool" minigame and created an "all or nothing" situation; either invest most your characters and points in magic, or spend the minimum in 1-2 scroll caddies. Anything in between was unlikely to do anything at all, just likely to be a very inefficient point sink, unless you agreed with your oponent "ok let's both bring 1 or 2 lvl 2 and that's it". I even preferred the 8th dice pool system. ToW system feels fresh, very balanced, and does not force you to bring 4 wizards or bury your oponent in dispell scrolls. Just my opinion though
I think it forces you to bring a level 4.
Warhammer armies project is a much more balance system.
@@grlmgor yes you are right, having a lv4 makes things easier, but there are plenty of items to facilitate dispelling for lower level mages, and even then you can just bring your one level 4 as your army mage and it will hold its own. 6th also kind of "forced you" to bring a lvl4 if you wanted to dominate the magic phase, plus a few supporting lvl2. Example, as a lizardmen player, when planning a "let's play the magic game" list, there was not much point bringing just one slann, since it would be way too easy for one or two cheap lvl1 scroll caddies to nullify my 400-500 points sink (only 6 energy dice vs 4 dispel dice and 3-4 scrolls, more than enough to make your magic phase irrelevant for most of the game). If you wanted to play the magic game you would bring the slann and AT LEAST 1 or 2 supporting lvl2 priests (you needed your dice pool to be significantly larger to be able to cast a relevant number of spells). If that makes sense. In TOW I can bring one lvl4 mage by themselves and not be left behind, also in a 2k point game your lvl4 does not lock you out of a combat lord choice like in 6th
I'm not familiar at all with WAP though, maybe it's an even better system 😁 as I said I also preferred the dice generation system in 8th vs 6th
Also (sorry I know I am rambling) true TOW removes whatever strategy was involved in the dice pool and scroll minigame, but it adds a lot of strategy and thought to wizard positioning and spell/dispel ranges, which I think is a good thing, plus the risk of "miscast" while dispelling which is interesting so it's not always just a mindless choice. Introduction of proper assailment spells is also brilliant
@@carlosrubinos WAP is 8th winds of magic.
Level 1 and 2 gets plus 1 to cast and dispel.
Level 3 and 4 gets plus 2 to cast and dispel.
You get your signature spell plus 1 spell per level.
You pick your spells before battle but can't have 2 of the same spell.
Level 1 picks 1 spell from the first 3 spells.
Level 2 picks 2 spells from the first 4 spells.
Level 3 picks 3 spells from the first 5 spells.
Level 4 picks 4 spells from the list.
So as long as you bought a level 2 mage in a 2K battle you can be competitive in magic but you only have 3 spells options and you won't be getting much bonus or channelling extra dice much.
The WAP system allowed level 1 and level 3 to be valuable. So you see all type of levels depends on what you wanted to do, not just level 4 and 2s.
I think with any edition, you can play within the spirit of the rules or try to be a literalist and be a d$%k and mess with them. I just am not too happy with sabots or rebasing - will be interested in your play-throughs.
I liked 6th edition except having to buy the 3 errata books - I also lost my Badlands map which really sucks. I think I will look more closely at 7th edition as no extra books needed. Figured you were on hiatus with this new edition coming out. Great that old models will be available again for the other editions.
Welcome back, was wondering when you were gonna post a new video.
I don't see the appeal of ToW, I'm just gonna stick with 6th. I played a game of it but, all the complexity that the pushback could have created is sorta negated, since flanking doesn't really "break" units, as even if they'll lose by 10 CR, they'll just fall back in good order and turn toward you. It just feels like damage is king, and most of the damage comes from lords. Also hate the way the army composition works, feels like 8th and ToW both loose a lot of list building complexity by having loose percentage based army composition rules. For me it felt like ToW embodies the things that I hate the most in 6th, and any good ideas that came with it (decoupling AP and S, break tests, unit formations...) sorta fall flat, because of a few issues with the system.
Yeah, it was a pretty awful game. My 24" long conga line flying 24" took the cake
Buddy do you really believe the Old Wortl will last ? Seriourly *
Don’t call it a comeback
not a fan of premeasuring. I feel like it makes the game more "gamey" and slows it down with every just measuring everything
There's pros and cons for sure.
A lot of the hype reviews of ToW are not being realistic. It was one of the worst games I've ever played.
Major problems with ToW in the order they were discovered:
i) Conga Lines- the removal of the base to base requirement for models to fight. Since models generate the most combat resolution when attacking, it's optimal to put the entire unit in the front rank, especially if they have great weapons.
ii) Universal Steadfast/Stubborn- 'fall back in good order' is a camouflaged way of making the steadfast rule from 8th edition universal. So stuff basically doesn't die from leadership anymore.
iii) Lots of leadership buffs on top- all characters have a command range, the bsb rerolls a lot of checks within 12", stubborn units have a free autopass, other leadership rerolls are around.
iv) Importation of 8th edition's lack of leadership rules combined with the lack of importation of 8th's deadly unit profiles and step up breaks the casualty yield curve- In 6th and 7th edition, the main way of killing stuff was by breaking it and running it down, thanks to negative modifiers on break tests. 8th edition mostly removed this through steadfast on big units. But, it compensated for the drop in models dying from leadership by increasing kill count in combat through deadly unit profiles, fighting in about 2 ranks or 3 ranks with the horde rule, and step up. TOW doubles down on the mostly removal of leadership from the game, making leadership casualties minimal. Instead of compensating for this by making units deadlier, it makes units, much, much less deadly. This breaks the casualty curve, making it more appropriate for a 10 turn game. This creates the following internal balance problems within army books:
v) The squeezed ends of army books- Because the casualty curve is greatly delayed, chaff units have to receive points hikes or else they will be too numerous and the casualty yield curve issues will be too obvious. This is why empire state troops, for instance, receive a points hike compared to 6th edition as well as parry, despite losing the detachments rule. At the same time, unit mulchers like dragons, bloodthirsters, deathstars have to be underpriced in order to chew through models in a timely fashion. Hence the 355 point bloodthirsters, undercosted star dragons, etc.
vi) Nerfs to chaff- 5 wide requirement for chaff nerfs them, as it did in 7th edition. This requirement is also backdoor in by the combat formation only existing if the unit is as wide as it is deep. So realistically, you need a 5 wide to have high numbers and fit in combat formation anyways. The removal of parry also means chaff get run over by lances and great weapons, for instance.
vii) Deathstars, especially cavalry deathstars- double combats on the overrun are back from 7th. Usually free reforms after forcing a fallback are introduced from 8th edition, so deathstars lose the manueverabiliry issue that held them back in 6th/7th. Deathstar units like demigryph riders, blood knights are also back. Cavalry now also ignore ranks on their first charge, if they force a fall back in good order they count as charging on the second round, and countercharge lets them charge a lot of the time when charged. With the initiative bonus from charging and lances being effectively great weapons, Cavalry are mostly the way you kill things in the game, as leadership and chaff isn't a way to do that anymore.
viii) inconsistent army book balance- some designers use the squeezed ends design for armies like Empire, high elves, Demons. Other designers like vampire Counts and bretonnia make chaff as cheap as they can, creating 8th edition numbers but with no feasible way to kill that many. So you have both the squeezed ends problem and the turn 10 casualty curve problem, but also the external balance issues between the army books taking different tacks. In addition, some army books have by chance a better force organization chart opportunity for Conga lines, which favor great weapon infantry.
ix) Broken Magic- Only level 4 Wizards are worth taking. The teleport and fly spells break the movement phase by transforming units into 24" flying bricks. Magic missiles are cast after the wizard moves, so you can dart in and out of your opponent's Dispel range to cast. Fated Dispels are pretty useless. Magic is autohammer: You cast everything and dispel everything automatically.
That's a list of the known major issues. There are also minor ones, such as the designers not realizing that combining monstrous mount defensive profiles with the riders means they now have to split points costs of defensive magic items.
Bro got himself banned from both the WFB and ToW subreddits, so now he's typing his novel posts that all say the same shit in the CZcams comments 😂
@@Remixersoloman I never banned him from the WFB6TH Facebook group, just the ToW group. Or rather kicked him.
@@ergofargo never said anything about Facebook
Best version of Warhammer I've ever played
@@ergofargo I left, actually