What's Right? Body Filler Over Epoxy Primer or Bare Metal?
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- čas přidán 14. 04. 2022
- This video will help you decide if you should put body filler over bare metal or epoxy primer. Different dry times, filler types, epoxy primer types and sand paper grits were used in an extensive experiment to compare the bond strength of body filler over bare metal vs. body filler over epoxy primer. Tools, materials and Lakeside Merch and Apparel below -
*** Epoxy Primers: Auto Body Master Epoxy Primer, Speed Coat Epoxy Primer
*** Fillers: Auto Body Master Light Weight Body Filler, Evercoat Everglass
*** Torque Wrench: www.amazon.com/VANPO-Electron...
*** Lakeside Merch and Apparel: brothersdesignsmi.com/shop/ol...
/ @lakesideautobody - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Filler can absorb moisture and cause rust to the metal underneath it. The level of moisture absorption will depend on the filler brand, humidity and the amount of time the filler is exposed to the humidity in the air. IMO Epoxy primer the bare metal first then put the filler on top of the epoxy primer, this method eliminates that risk regardless of how small that risk is especially considering all the work and money to paint a car.
Epoxy is for rust prevention
This is how I see it as well. Try to eliminate chance of rust/corrosion developing between bare metal and filler by acid etch or epoxy prime bare metal first, then apply filler.
Well said,epoxy primer first,then filler,then epoxy primer.
NO RUSTING!
everytime I've sanded old bondo off a car I've never see rust under in it personally
@@5theshortone I just stripped a C10 I bought and there was a surprising amount of surface rust under it that had absorbed into the filler. No issues visible before, and you would have never known looking at it before I stripped it. But it was happening slowly but surely.
Thank you for this test (and all the test you do). It saves me lot of time and piece of mind knowing I can get a good result for all the effort I'm putting into my project.
You're welcome RS. I appreciate your kind words - have a happy Easter and good week my friend :)
I always make a chart so peeps can see different out comes at a glance. Good vid.
Perfect timing on this video as Im patching some rust areas on the foot rest. THANKS!
You're welcome :)
I have always wondered this exact question. Thanks for doing a experiment that is actually measurable! Thanks for taking the time to do this video as well as this took some patients! (I guess bodywork is something you can’t rush so your use to this) I think this does answer the debate. Good work Jerry!
Thanks for the support Uncle Mark - always good to hear from you my friend :)
NICE!!!
As long as the substrate is sound and properly prepped, the bond of the filler should hold.
It's all in the prep. Like you, I've never had a filler failure on any substrate. Great demo
Thanks 👍
Same here using 2k primer over filler repairs and bake it before sanding to alleviate sinking.
Great way to actually put it to the test because a lot of ppl seen to have an opinion on which way is "right" or best but they dont seem to know why. This is right in front of your face. Black and white results. Great job!
Thanks for the comment - I appreciate the support :)
Great info in your vids, thanks! I always find myself in the bare metal->epoxy->filler->epoxy camp. Main reason being moisture protection. Since most fillers are porous polyesters in composition, my concern is moisture trapped inside the filler eventually causing rust through heat/cool cycles causing condensation. Being that you can never get the moisture levels in the filler to 0%, you can always reach a temperature at which condensation could occur. The only filler I occasionally use DTM in window channel areas is Adtech P17 because it cures to a solid. Again, potential moisture/corrosion down the road is my main concern as I never have had filler adhesion issues to begin with.
It's easy to do. For years I wore nothing - too hot in the shop. Now... I'm a bit more careful. I asked a lung doc that I went to one time if he thought the dust from body work entered my lungs. Can you believe he said, "absolutely not - you're body will filter it - it won't even get close." Ain't that crazy. I'm not sure if I believe that - so I wear one just in case ;)
Thank you for this debate answered! I did one thing that was suggested by you, which was verify with the vendor how and in which order should the filler and epoxy primer be used. The answer was, do all filler over properly prepared bare metal, then epoxy. I saw a video with Kevin Titts and he stated the same thing using Eastwood products. I feel comfortable now hat the methods I have used over the years have been correct, accept for, one time I sprayed rust converter over rusty metal and the put primer and paint, and it didn,t last long before I had bubbles. From now on it is strip to bare metal wash with metal etch. The parts look like they are fresh stamped steel . Keep up the great work
Thanks for you input my friend - good information. I appreciate the support :)
Another great demo Jerry I appreciate the work you do!
Thanks UPK - good to hear from you my friend :)
You are the new myth buster! Thank you for all your videos!
You're welcome Jim - Happy Easter :)
Great video! I've done both depending on circumstances, but I would always prefer a good primer underneath depending on the size and type of repair. Most of the problems people have is with improperly prepared bare metal under the filler where rust has not neutralized.
Many people don't realize that regular filler is just talc and polyester resin. Talc absorbs water. If there's rust underneath it will rust again. You have a better chance with premium fillers like USC All-metal or similar that uses ground up aluminum or any of the 'fiber' fiberglass reinforced fillers like Tiger hair or Gorilla hair, maybe not that extreme but just a 'glass' filler which doesn't absorb moisture. You can see regular fill soaks up water wet sanding. They use that Bondo-glass fill exclusively in the marine and boating world just because it doesn't pick up moisture.
I use epoxy filler, it cures slow but I think it does not suffer from those issues, I feel better about putting that on bare metal anyway. Then 2k epoxy primer over all that.
Great video thanks for sharing it! My dad and i are restoring a 72 Chevelle and we chose filler direct to metal and i was surprised when i looked up videos on that topic and found wild differences in peoples opinions.
Filler was actually put over bare metal for many years. You wouldn't ever want to get caught putting it over anything else if you worked in a body shop in the 70's, 80's, 90's :)
Everyone has debated this topic for years so it’s nice to finally see an actual scientific test to put myths to rest. As usual another awesome, informative video. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
You're welcome JH - glad you appreciated this video 😊
First, I LOVE your channel. This is the video I've been waiting for! I've been restoring our '65 Chevy C10. I ook it all the way down to bare metal, which meant taking off who knows how many gallons of body filler! Now, in searching for the proper way to work the metal BEFORE applying and covering the 1/2" to 3/4" dents with body filler like the cheapo BIG name body shop did. Ya, watching to many different people do it in MANY different ways can leave a Fellers head spinning LOL
Thanks - I appreciate the support. If you stay here and ask questions when you need your head won't ever spin - I will get you the correct answer. You can upload pictures of your projects here if you would like - discord.com/invite/Qm6qJgcubu Happy Easter my friend :)
Thanks for taking time to do that! Very cool.
You're welcome my friend - have a good weekend :)
Thank you for this. I feel better about my recent project, as I had applied filler on mostly bare metal, but also some on epoxy. I trust your researching.
You're welcome. You can rest easy knowing that both are fine. Happy Easter my friend :)
I prefer epoxy on bare metal with the filler on top because filler can absorb moisture and cause the metal underneath it to rust. by putting epoxy primer first and then the filler you eliminate that risk especially if the project is going to take a few weeks to be painted.
Hmmm. Gets me thinking.
Thanks for all the helpful videos
Excellent test, I done my car in epoxy primer over bare metal first, but still ended up sanding through it on some spots. Good to know it's all good in any case. Thank you!
You're welcome Sidney :)
nice experiment , you just answer lot of question I have while doing my project thanks man for your time to demonstrate and trials very well done appreciated
Glad it helped - you're welcome :)
In the early 90's I had to go to the PPG training seminar to become a PPG certified painter. They are the ones who require their DP epoxy primer to be sprayed before the plastic filler is applied. You still have to give the metal tooth for the filler to adhere to the panel. It has to have 40 grit scratches using a rotary sanding tool. The epoxy is to prevent moisture being transferred to the bare metal.
I don't know if it is still required or if any other paint companies suggest it being used this way anymore. I have been out of the industry for the past 10 years. If I have to now, I will still spray my epoxy before application of plastic filler.
I always wondered If I was doing it the best way. Turns out I was. Thanks much.
Glad to help - you're welcome :)
Excellent experiment! I now know that I can go anyway I feel comfortable. Thanks for your always good videos!
You're welcome - thanks for the support :)
Thanks for that video. I always wondered about that.
👍🏻thanks again for sharing your experiment test. That debate will probably never be answered, everyone has their own way of doing things.
Have a good Easter!!!
You're right about that for sure. Have a good Easter to Michael :)
Ahh, Peace of Mind!! Thanks man!
You're welcome my friend :)
Very impressive test. Had yet to anyone perform a convincing test of filler use. Thanks
Thanks - most body shops put filler directly over bare metal as oxidization and rust protection is the paints job.
Nice job showing that !
Thanks Curtis - have a good weekend - always a pleasure hearing from you my friend :)
As you and others have said both will work and your test definitely shows a strength test but longevity out in different weather conditions would be another test. Have seen good and bad results with both application methods. What I have done is called the companies that produce the product and asked what their recommendation is for over bare metal or over epoxy and also called tech line for epoxy mfg and asked if filler okay to put over. I have gotten various answers depending on mfg. Sometimes it was a distinct no to if filler applied within a certain time period of application of the epoxy. Just my experience….
I use epoxy primer all the time on my restoration and custom jobs but not recommended for typical collision repair but I let my epoxy set for 5 days then sand whole car with 150 then the areas for filler I hit with 80 after my filler work is done I spray 1 coat of epoxy over everything flash off then apply my polyester
Wowwwwww never seen an explanation like this 💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽keep up th great content God Bless🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
This is an ingenious experiment brother.... very informative and well thought out!!
I appreciate that Chad. Have a good weekend my friend :)
No, it leaves out moisture issues which is not the case with epoxy. Body shop guys in a hurry do not care about the long term effect just a quick buck!
@@jeeper2371 The paint protects everything underneath from moisture. If you leave it outside for months or years before painting then yes... it would be beneficial to use epoxy primer. I still wouldn't trust the epoxy primer to be 100% waterproof like paint. That's why body shops don't care about anything being water proof but the paint. It's really not about a quick buck - it's what works the best for any given job :)
Great test!
Thanks for this this is something I've heard a lot of debate about which one is better
I think the debate will continue but at least you know the bond strength part is solved. I think it's completely up to you and what your needs are. If you only work on a car once in a while then yes, go ahead hit it with some epoxy. If you're going to paint it and have it done in a week or shorter no need for epoxy :)
thank you for this great experiment
You're welcome my friend - have a good weekend :)
Very interesting....I was always told that filler to bare metal would cause moisture between the 2 over time...however I only hear the filler over epoxy in restoration...but in a production shops I've worked at, it was always filler to metal, 2k prime,, seal,, etc...Very nice video!!
You're right - very rare to see filler over epoxy in a production shop. Thanks for you input my friend :)
Production shops only worry about getting it done fast. Moisture will get behind bodyfill on bare steel over time. With epoxy it seals the metal in a death-grip and will not allow moisture to wick in over time like bodyfill.
That's right. I worked in a production shop and all that mattered was how quick you can get the work turned around. A body man is going to do what makes him the most money with the least chance of a comeback.
Huh, when did you work in those shops? Because my grandpa, father, and me have been doing it since we were kids and now we own chain supply stores. The main problem isn’t rust lol. It’s the epoxy not finding the metal over the filler and blistering paint. It takes longer for the epoxy to bite into metal over filler. In a production shop, you’d be wasting valuable time. I don’t see anyone at dealerships or individuals putting filler on bare metal.
@@In.da.pot.that.some_wap I can't speak for where you've worked, but where I've worked, where cars are same day repairs, they are not putting epoxy on bare metal, waiting on it to dry, then applying body filler .... I personally think if you are in an all climate area and actually drive the car through all seasons daily, no paint job will last forever...in Cleveland, brand new cars are rusting within 4 yrs if you are actually using it daily
Bond strength isn't the central issue on this question, moisture is.
Epoxy is moisture barrier. Metal needs to isolated from moisture asap. Get the epoxy down first. Then take all the time you need on filler. Just don't sand past the epoxy.
That is 100% right, as for the experiment it is meaningless Once moisture gets behind the bodyfill its useless.
Moisture doesn't get behind filler when it's primed and painted. Do you leave it outside in the rain for months at a time?
Great video thank you kindly!
You're welcome 308 - always good to hear from you my friend. Have a good weekend :)
Thanks Jer!
You're welcome Uncle Jer :) I used to like it when friends called me Jer :)
That's very scientific and fun to watch. It's time saving to prime with epoxy or 2k primer.
Guide coat block, use filler then sand guide coat and block. It's just faster to see and rust isn't etching it's way into the metal as you do mud work ! It's in primer.
Guide coat, guide coat always guide coat !
It's so much faster when you put three double passes with 2k primer. Let it flash completely, so it builds. Let the 3 double coats dry. Now you have a solid base to block out.
This Works for old cars not new car bodies.
But old cars it's the way.
Thanks for your input MindDezign - I appreciate the support - have a good weekend :)
Great experiment. Finally solves that question, well done !
Thanks PSG - spring is here my friend :)
@@LakesideAutobody Yes !
@@pstreetgarage7304 Hey PSG, what part of Canada do you live in?
@@LakesideAutobody Halifax Nova Scotia
@@pstreetgarage7304 Holy cow!!! Did you ever check out Triumph Live in Halifax or my favorite - czcams.com/video/gCWj8Nz5DUg/video.html Canada produced some good rock/heavy metal :)
It’s best over scuffed metal but it really doesn’t matter if whichever base primer is used as long as it’s s properly cured and the metal has been properly prepped before whichever base primer is used and scuffed before the filler is applied . It’s going to stick
I like seeing these experiments, Jerry. Good information!👍
I'm glad you enjoyed it my friend. Happy Easter to you and your family :)
It not the epoxy or the filler that causes fails,, it’s if the surface is clean on the metal, epoxy, or paint that you apply it over. You don’t put anything on a dirty surface. The reason some people strip down to metal is to get down to a clean surface, versus any possibly contaminated layers in between.
That's true Robert - thanks for your input on this topic. Have a good weekend :)
Seems like the extra days helped out(epoxy), but if you wanna get the job done right now,bare metal for the win. 🐻👍
I agree with you BBG - that's an extra step that not needed. If you leave it outside for months or years before painting then OK but otherwise no :)
Thank you so much!!
You're welcome :)
Good test, thanks.
You're welcome :)
Great video Jerry, well done. I personally use epoxy primer only to keep the car rust free while I'm carrying out body work. Seems to be the option for restoration type work vs collision repair work where body filler gets used on clean prepared bare metal.
Thanks for your input Mick. You're right. If the job is going to be done in a short time - no need for epoxy. If you're going to take quite a long time restoring something then epoxy is the answer :)
The experiment is useless it should be about keeping moisture out and bodyfill will not do this!
@@jeeper2371 Paint keeps moisture out - nothing but paint should be relied on to keep out the moisture. Are you parking it outside for months or years before painting?
@@LakesideAutobody if you put epoxy over bondo and it doesn’t find the metal/ bite into metal, it will blister the paint. Bondo also holds in moisture. Epoxy’s we use has rust inhibitors and corrosion protection. It just has poor UV protection and won’t last in the sun.
Edit: also you have to wait longer for epoxy to reach the metal if it’s over filler. That could take a long time. So in a production sense, it should be epoxy first.
@@In.da.pot.that.some_wap In this video we were talking about the old debate of filler over bare metal vs filler over epoxy. You make some good points though about possibly trapping moisture under the epoxy if done the other way :)
Hey, thank you for sharing your knowledge on here. I have used your videos as a guide to tackle some bodywork and painting that I was going to pay a body shop for.... Came out great! As a small thanks was going to buy some of your products but your store handler won't ship to Australia...... Hope you can change that.
Cheers!
So sorry about that. Next time I talk to them I'll see what we can do. Glad you enjoy the channel my friend and it's great to hear it came out great. Cheers from Saint Helen, Michigan and hope you had a good Easter :)
Great video and test.
Thank you - I appreciate your comment Joni
Great video Jerry
Thanks 👍
Great video thank you for sharing
You're welcome Bill - Happy Easter to you and your family :)
thank you !
You're welcome Ed - have a good weekend :)
Seems that your jig you built could be used to test the bond strength of various fillers to see which is best. I was surprised by the fiberglass reinforced filler separating at less than 5lb/ft. I would have expected that to be higher as well. When I build custom panels for car stereos, I prefer to use fiberglass reinforced filler for my initial shaping, and lightweight body filler for final. But now I see it *may* not be as critical. Very interesting video.
Thanks for your input Jay. You're right about testing strength of fillers like All Metal vs Fiberglass R. F. vs regular filler, etc. Good idea for a video my friend - I'll write it down. Happy Easter :)
Excellent video
Thanks Chris - I appreciate the support. Happy Easter to you and your family :)
Great video thanks 👍
You're welcome AMB - have a good week :)
Looks like body filler to metal works better because of the time right. I seen your other video on this Topic. I would not wait 8 days right.
Well done
Thanks Lucas :)
I have a restoration project in which i am stripping and coating with epoxy primer.
I have a bunch of panels to do and the body filler work will come later as i just want to get the panels under epoxy to prevent rust.
When i do get to the body filler stage..can I apply it over the epoxy without sanding?
Yes but I would feel better giving it a light sanding with a DA just to make sure it sticks well. Real quick - just to freshen it up :)
No, you're going to need to scuff it up. The TDS should explain.
Well that settles it as far as adhesion. Thanks for that. But since filler is generally porous and can absorb moisture, while epoxy primer is water tight, it leaves me wonder which method would provide the best rust protection. Maybe an idea for another video. Thanks again.
Body shops put filler right over bare metal because they are going to paint it within the week. Paint protects everything underneath from moisture. The filler absorbing moisture is sort of an internet thing because folks may be leaving their projects outside for months or years before painting - hope that helps answer some questions for you :)
Yours is an entirely valid point of view. I have done it countless times. Not trying to argue or anything. Just trying to figure out what's actually best. We've all seen micro cracks in filler taking the paint with it. Maybe it was too thick, a scratch or a chip happened, whatever the reason, now moisture is allowed to get in and more serious problems can begin. It would do the same if epoxy primer had been applied to the bare metal first, but at least that could help keep the rust out of it. No? Sometimes I feel it should be applied on either side of the filler.
@@speedy_pit_stop I guess it comes down to what you feel the most comfortable doing. I can't say that I've ever had filler crack unless it was hit with a hammer or got in an accident. If filler is applied correctly over good solid metal, it's not going to crack. I think you'd be safe both ways and it comes down to what you feel is best for each job. I don't think I answered your ? too well but feel free to ask more if you need to :)
Well executed Bud!! Ya can't argue with the facts eh!!☻
Thanks RK - Happy Easter to you and your family :)
I have a truck that I am thinking of painting single stage acrylic urethane from TCP Global. There are a couple of spots of body work I need to do. Should I body fill over bare metal and then prime those spots with epoxy primer then sand and then shoot an adhesion promotor? Or would you recommend I shoot a urethane primer instead of adhesion promotor? Kind of looking for your advice on basic steps to take. Should I sand the paint that's already on it (it's got single stage from the factory that is still in decent condition in most places)? If so, with what grit? Sorry for the multi-part question, just want to make sure I do the little truck justice.
First, epoxy primer doesn't sand very well nor does it fill. I don't use epoxy primer at all unless I'm doing an aluminum panel. You never need adhesion promoter either. Try to find a urethane primer that is DTM - direct to metal that way you can skip the epoxy primer or you can use old fashioned lacquer primer. All automotive primers work great so it's up to you. You can put filler over bare metal or sanded OEM paint. Usually if it's a ding you can DA sand it with some 220 grit paper spread the filler, sand it flat, prime, block, prime again, finish sand and paint. Here's a video on DA sanding - czcams.com/video/H6u13RUJKew/video.html Here's a video on preparing your body work for paint - czcams.com/video/pjXkhi1E7hQ/video.html Finally, here's a video on putting filler over paint - czcams.com/video/koMw6-auoIs/video.html Those videos should give you a good idea where to start. Ask questions as you go if you need to :)
@@LakesideAutobody wow man! Thank you so much for the detailed response. I got the adhesion promoter idea I think from your video with the mustang. Or was that something different and I'm misremembering? Anyway, I really appreciate the awesome response and I will probably have more questions along the way haha.
I am final block sanding my primer surfacer in 400 grit to get ready for my base/clear but I broke through the primer to bare metal in a few very,very,very small areas on places like the edge of a panel and in the door jamb. Do I have to mix another entire batch of primer with activator in order to just spray some small break throughs no bigger than a grain of rice? I appreciate your time and your input has helped me greatly on my 1968 Shelby GT500KR project that I will be spraying Raven Black.
No - just use some cheap spray bomb metal primer. If you seal the car/truck before painting that will suffice too :)
@@LakesideAutobody Will that cheap spray bomb primer react badly with my urethane base/clear? Do I need to get a certain type of primer in a can?
@@VegasRT500 You can get expensive stuff like SEM - www.semproducts.com/product/high-build-primer-surfacer, Eastwood, etc but I usually pick something up from Walmart or Autozone, etc. I've never had any issue at all - I've used Rustoleum, and other no name brands too - as long as it's for metal, you'll be fine. It's just a very light coat to cover any last bare metal spots, bare edges and so on.
@@LakesideAutobody Awesome and thanks again!
Can you do the same experiment with Bondo/ jb weld/ 3m panel epoxy, etc? Great video. Great test. Man you thought of everything!
Yes - I'll do that. Thanks for the idea Kevin - that would be interesting. Might need a lot of force for the JB!
@@LakesideAutobody I recently learned about 3m panelbond for a project im doing.
Wow ,modern chemistry rocks that stuff is like JB weld on steroids.
No wonder guys cheat and butcher with it and glue half a car together.
For what I was doing ,the torsional chassis strength can't be beat now.
@@MrTheHillfolk It's strong stuff for sure :)
I have never worked in a collision or production shop, but the only issues I have had have been over bare metal,I have been tinkering at it over 30 years
What issues have you had with putting filler on bare metal? I think I could solve those issues for you - it would save you a step :)
@@LakesideAutobody I think the paint was cracked or scratched and the filler cracked as well, causing the metal to rust underneath
@@rcs0296 That can do it. If the paint (which is the protective skin) is damaged, you're going to eventually have problems. As long as that paint protects everything underneath you're good :)
I always epoxy primer over bare metal then 2K primer then finish with a sealer before single stage or base coat clear coat
You forgot to do body work
I retired from bodywork after 50 years in it. I agree with your conclusions.
Did you ever hear of putting filler over primer in your 50 years of working in it. That is... other than cheating because you found a low spot when you block sanded your primer. It was frowned upon where ever I worked - you didn't want to be "caught".
@@LakesideAutobody
That's what People would say, and I did get told on. I didn't have any problems though as long as it was over epoxy primer, I would never do it over lacquer primer. When I started doing autobody primer was lacquer back then. The lacquer would swell out from under body filler so that didn't work. I always liked the metal work jobs. My vision faded and doing late model front-end crashes were difficult because of the insane amount of black plastic. Pull a bumper off and two wheelbarrow loads of black plastic would hit the floor. It got too hard to see all the damn parts that I needed to order.
@@guytrimble8171 That's funny. You're right about that. It is hard to see for sure. I have to wear jewelers glasses to mask off a car - ain't that a shame. Happy Easter my friend :)
Hi Jerry, I’m working on a long term project when I can and for that reason I decided to take it to bare metal then epoxy everything
Applied a skim coat of body today. While sanding I went thru to bare metal in some spots
My question is: can I re-epoxy over top the bondo?
Yes
Much appreciated sir!
Did this 40 years. Grind the metal then apply the body filler, get your work done then epoxy primer, give it time to cure. Layers of paint applications need time to cure. Unfortunately in the collision repair insurance business they want work done as fast as possible. Custom car business takes longer and you will get a much better result in time. There's a lot of cheep mickey mouse paint manufacturers out there, use the expensive good brands, if you really care.
jerry heres a tech tip for you to try use resin to thin your bondo in the can if your bondo is a little dry .thanks
- nick
Thanks for the tip Nicholas. You're welcome too :)
I just got this product epoxy primer I never used polyester primer yet though just Bondo will use the epoxy this year have some rust spots on my car got this year so gonna strip the rust spots down to bare metal then apply epoxy then Bondo. Then painting my car a different color midnight purple metallic urethane the Starfire basecoat with the 5 Star Extreme Glamour high solids clear never used that clear yet will be the first time for me.
Will be painting my truck again too with the Starfire base too.
That's great to hear. Let me know how it goes. You can post pictures here if you want - discord.com/invite/Qm6qJgcubu
@@LakesideAutobody just got a steamer today for cleaning the inside of a vehicle out I like painting my own vehicles but I like auto detailing too I used a steamer today but had to get another one because it wasn't powerful enough to use the steamer on the car on the inside of it so bought the Mcollough 1375 steamer today on Ebay was 164 dollars I know they have newer ones from Mcollough than that but I just started using steamers but it will be better than using the one was using earlier today which was more for cleaning a bathroom. I know about cleaning though as I work at a cleaning job and have worked at multiple cleaning jobs now work at a school but have worked at a University last year and didn't last at that but I could of stayed longer but it's more difficult than where have been now for almost 3 years cleaning a elementary and middle charter school but worked at factory cleaning, a courthouse and city office buildings downtown. But have probably been doing for over 4 years or 5 all together but auto detailing and auto painting only almost two years have been buying more products to do it. I could tell I was getting better at painting last year more though but I see me doing the auto detailing and painting vehicles for a while I enjoy them both but haven't got the hands on learning from a professional auto detailer or auto painter yet.
Many epoxy’s today are DTM. Some are not but cost much more. I am not worried about speed as I will one panel at a time. My plan is clean metal, W&G then epoxy. Some with go into the insides of truck bed-sides and doors, places that were never treated or dunked at the factory because of age. I will try my hardest to reach inside these places to scuff with maroon, 80 grit by hand and perhaps an etching liquid, force dry w/compressed air, W&G, then spray the epoxy. Any thoughts on DTM epoxies or straight epoxies?
I get 50 different answers if asking 50 body techs. I am a repair tech and now retired, so building this for myself. Longevity is my goal inside or out & chemicals change! I value your thoughts. Some shops do not want DTM within 10 miles of their shops. I am confused but wallet like many is thin! Thanks, just planning.
Feel free to ask all kinds of ?s - I'll get you the answer that is easy on the wallet but lasts as long as you want it to - here's an example of one thing that really works - czcams.com/video/8XaZBy7GC7A/video.html
Hello again was wondering if you wouldn’t mind answering another question of mine. I did some filler work on a hood blocked it out and sprayed 3 coats of 2k primer on it and I can see like halo spots where the filler is. So question is do you think I can wet sand the hood down with 400 and it’ll be okay to paint or do I need to sand with 220 and re prime it? Your thoughts are much appreciated. Thanks for your time and sharing your knowledge and experiences.
Here's the process. Finish your filler, feather edge the paint and surrounding areas - primer with good primer surfacer. You'll see the filler work like you said. Block sand with 120 or 180 grit on a sanding board until all low spots disappear - must be perfectly smooth and all uniform sand strokes. Prime again, wet sand w/400 or DA sand with 320 and paint :)
Thanks for the info sorry to keep bugging you but for a weekend warrior the prices for materials is so high it’s to expensive to go by trial and error anymore. Thanks again keep up the great videos
@@jasonknight219 You're welcome - ask as many ?s as you need to my friend - no problem. Have a good weekend :)
Long time subscriber here.
I have a few questions:
1. When using galvanized replacement parts, can we just paint the back or should we grind off the zinc first?
2. When pinch welding, do i protect the mating surface with weld-through primer? Is there any other way to protect those surfaces?
3. Is using rust converter (upon grinding away as much rust as possible) a good way to protect from further rust?
Thank you!
Thanks for sticking with my my friend :)
1. DA sand and prime the galvanized replacement parts, then you can paint.
2. You can use weld through if you like but the best way to treat pinch welds and seams like that is this - czcams.com/video/8XaZBy7GC7A/video.html Good article here on weld through - www.repairerdrivennews.com/2016/12/08/honda-explains-rationale-for-new-change-in-weld-through-primer-rules/
3. Rust converter can't hurt used to have to use it at a shop I worked at - it seemed to do the job well. If you cut out all the rust and sand blast any little spots that will work too. Again though, it's best to treat the panel after the repair/painting is done like the video above.
Hope that helps out a bit - Jerry
@@LakesideAutobody Thank you for sharing your expertise!
@@patrykrebisz8421 You're welcome Patryk - have a good week my friend :)
maybe you could answer this for me. a few questions (1.) if using black epoxy primer if I just clearcoat it then its UV stable right?? (2.) I want to put some metal flake in the paint job should I lay down some 2 coats epoxy with no flake then just 1 top coat of epoxy with flake in and then 3 coats clearcoat over the epoxy , or do my 3 coats of epoxy then a coat of clear with metal flake an then 2 coats of clearcoat over that??
And it is just for my front and rear differentials, driveshafts, and springs and I have epoxy and clearcoat in stock and need to save some money an hoping to not have to buy more paint.. thanks and thank for sharing
Interesting idea. I think that would work fine. You could also use enamel clear or even lacquer clearcoat. paintforcars.com/product/paintforcars-starfire-acrylic-enamel-clear-coat-1-gal/ or www.walmart.com/ip/1-Qt-High-Gloss-Clear-Auto-Body-Low-VOC-Acrylic-Clearcoat-Paint-2-Pack/678779044?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101080968&&adid= Let me know what you end up using :)
Whut?????? LOL
I used to put filler on bare metal until I realized that putting it on primer stopped the moisture from the metal getting under it
Yep. I live in a nothern, but humid climate. I see rust under fill a lot and it will start making the fill crack and forcing it off. The metal was clean when the fill was put on, but it sweats. This is why some OEMs now require epoxy on bare metal before filler is applied. I can't remember all that require it, but Toyota is one.
For over 40 years I have put epoxy on the bare metal, in the early days it PPG DP. I look at the long term of the paint job, how well is it going to hold up 20 years down the road. I have seen some of my paint jobs that were 30 years old and held up great. Most of those types of cars are always garaged . Would bodyfiller over bare metal have held up as well? possibly but I don't want to roll the dice.
Well put.
Thanks for your input Brian. I promise you that you'll have no issues putting filler over metal if you'd like to save $ and a step. Now.... if you leave it outside for 2-6 months under a tree then that would be a good time to first hit it with epoxy primer. I'm not too sure epoxy primer is completely waterproof either though. I think that one should only count on the finish to protect against moisture.
I got cars with filler that was done 40 years ago. Over bare metal and over primer and paint. It still is holding up and sits outside in Wisconsin weather.
Thanks for your input 348. Once it's on, the only way to get it off is a grinder or bondo hog with 24-36 grit on it.
Wow! Very well done Jerry. This puts a lot of myths to rest.
I guess I don't really understand how pulling them apart proves anything other than it sticks. On a car that's been epoxied and filled I don't see how it's going to come off unless the car is in an accident and it cracks, but filler on metal would probably do the same thing, and if you've been in an accident you're going to have to redo the work anyway to fix the damage. I like the idea of epoxy because it seals the bare metal from corrosion vs filler which can absorb moisture if you don't cover it right away, which then leads to rusting.
Here's the thinking: In a body shop you would never be caught putting filler over primer or even paint because filler was made to go over bare metal. The fear back then was adhesion or that the filler would not stick well to the primer or paint. We knew the filler stuck to bare metal - that was a given. This test proves that the adhesion to primer is legit. Hope that helps answer your ? - Jerry
The main difference is that if the area is scratched and moisture can get in filler let's the moisture get to the metal and if epoxy is put first then the metal is protected. Filler allows moisture past with nothing protecting the metal.
I guess the rule of thumb would be: If you are going to paint soon you don't need the epoxy - If you are going to park it out in the elements for months or years before painting then it would benefit you to use the epoxy :)
You want the Apoxsee to not be completely dry why? Because Apoxsee is an adhesive it will stick the mud to itself and also to the metal like a binder but then you let the Bondo and the Apoxsee dry for a day .then scuffed the Bondo and add more where needed the reason is because the Apoxsee will not allow moisture to go through the Bondo and to the metal Causing it to rust and later de lemonade from the panel if you put the Bondo straight on the metal that works just fine but you have to coat that with Apoxsee before you seal and paint it if you want moisture not to get to the metal.
The only reason I don’t put body filler on bare metal is have a look at the ingredients that is in the hardener that makes the filler go hard some people even go to the lengths of weighing the filler to put exactly 2% in the mix as mixing a HOT mix creates moisture underneath the filler and the bare metal so on you’re high end cars epoxy primer first before filler so next time you pick a tube of hardener have a read of the ingredients in it. The other thing I’ve noticed when stripping back a 60s or 70s to 90s model car that was repaired in the old way of filler over bare metal there’s always rust underneath the filler
You'll never ever have rust under filler if it is applied correctly. I think folks are leaving it outside for years without primer or there is a hole in the metal behind it. There will never be moisture between the metal and the filler unless something is done "crazy" wrong during the paint job. Here's a video that sort of talks about that - czcams.com/video/zGHxBr_LpzM/video.html
@@LakesideAutobody I don’t think you understand what I’m saying here ingredients in body filler Hardner benzyl peroxide in all sorts of other shit. Even water is in the Hardner ingredients list no matter what you do it’ll always rust. On bare metal like I said have a look at the label and read the ingredients list bog or whatever you want to call it will always rust on bare metal that’s y all high end cars always start with epoxy first
This is by far THE MOST DETAILED test to testify on what is the most effective way to apply filler. And I agree every step is correct as long as you did prepare your metal.
What I dont like about filler on EP is it takes 3 to 5 days to cure and I only sand it with smoother 100 grit sandpaper. As this for this test it shows a bit strenght in terms of numbers. But filler on EP sags more ofthen that have it on applied on grinded freshly prepped. metal.
All body shops that I worked at put it on bare metal so no worries about it failing - ever.
@@LakesideAutobody the oldschool way is the best way. I learn so much on your channel. More power.
@@nicsivan5105 Thanks Nics - I appreciate the support - have a good week :)
I’m painting my cars engine bay. Took it to bare metal. Epoxy primed it. What do you think my next step be - should i block down the epoxy and paint over it, or should i use a sealer before paint?
Most epoxy primers are hard to sand. First check to see if it loads up the sand paper. If it does, you can coat it with urethane primer surfacer and then sand that if you're looking sand out some imperfections. If not and you're not looking to "block sand" your primer, you can go ahead and just paint right over the epoxy primer and be done. Let me know if that helps or you need other info :)
@@LakesideAutobody first i want to say i really appreciate your reply. Currently i don’t care much about imperfections, my gooal is just to get the paint looking glossy. Also luckily there aren’t much imperfections to begin with, lickily the metal was in pretty good shape. Again - this is really awesome you take time to reply to your comments.
Depending on the metal ,they say you're suppose to epoxy primer aluminum before filler.
That's a good plan. Epoxy is recommended for good adhesion to Aluminum. Although not using it has worked for me, I feel better spraying it with epoxy first.
what about long term rust resistance?
Here's a follow up video on past rust repairs using filler on bare metal (all repairs) - czcams.com/video/gIS1Tbv7Kvw/video.html - This video will help with that ? too - czcams.com/video/8XaZBy7GC7A/video.html
People have been putting filler over bare metal since it was invented in 1955, for me it makes more since to apply the majority of your filler work to the bare metal THEN seal it off and go into your poly and final blocking.
You're right - there was no epoxy primer back then.
Can you put body filler over polyester primer surfacers?
No... The reason being is epoxy primer will seal the metal and can get wet outside without breaking down or rust coming through but polyester primer or 2-K primer will eventually rust a lot faster becouse it is very porous and will not sheiks the moisture the same as epoxy primer would I've always put epoxy primer on cars that I striped down to bare metal to seal it then did my body work becouse as soon as the metal is bare it is starting to rust epoxy primer will help to stop the rust from forming and you can do your body work right on top of it once the bodywork is done and you haven't gone through the epoxy you should sand it with 220-240 grit sandpaper then apply polyester primer or 2-K primer and block sand...
I've been doing it this way done the mid '70's and never had any complaints or comebacks that it the proper way to do a restoration to make it last and let the friends dry for at least a week before sanding to fully cure as well as my body filler I will take down soft to get my basic shape the leave it for a couple days then finish sanding with 120 -180 grit sandpaper then followed by 220 - 240 grit sandpaper to remove all the heavy sanding scratches then apply 4 coats of polyester primer or high solid primer and let it dry for a week before blocking with 320 grit for getting the panel straight and eliminate any bulls eyes and followed down in stages to the desired finishing paper for the type of paint that is being applied...
If I was to finish the car with water base / clear coat then after the 320 grit I would go over it with 400 then 600 and finally 800 grit paper and you will never have a problem with the fillers or puddys sinking same with the primers becouse whatever the package tells you no sinking well guess what everything sinks within time....
That's one of the reasons truly real restoration's are expensive as well as the time doing the bodywork and making patches that are but welded into place instead of overlapping but that depends on the customer wants but welding is a lot more expensive becouse of the time involved....
Subbed! So i can share on forums when this debate comes up.
I appreciate the sub Frank. You have an interesting channel my friend :)
@@LakesideAutobody thank you.
The test only prooves that both filler on primer and filler on bare metal exceed the strenght of the filler itself. However the test is inconclusive regarding comparing the bonding capability. Neither bonding is tested to its capabilities in other words.. An arrangement with mesh bonded in between would answer the question. Yes you don’t have optimal surface bonding area, but that goes for both bondings. After the bonding is fully dried pull the mesh until the bonding gives way..
Thanks for your input Jonathan J - have a good weekend :)
@@LakesideAutobody You to mate😊
What about fiberglass resin over epoxy primer? I know bondo over epoxy primer works, but what about fiberglass resin?
Fiberglass is suppose to he put on bare metal
Good question. As David said, it was always put over properly prepared metal. Never tried it over primer. Since the resin in filler is the same as resin in glass (or similar I think) - it may work just fine.
While being new to restoring a car of mine I’m up to this point
And have bog over epoxy which by the supplier is supposed to be on bare meter so I’m somewhat concerned
But being new to this trade I can’t believe they would even still make filler for bare metal, it sounds let’s put a moisture sponge next to bare metal and lock it in under paint
Or even better every time I want to fill I need to strip repair the same day and epoxy over every step ,
Waste of time and product
Seal repair paint
Not strip repair paint strip repair paint
2 backward steps for every 3 forward steps
I’m I supposed to finish the whole side of the car in 1 day
Remember this... epoxy primer came out 30 some years AFTER filler. There was never even a ? for all that time. You better not get caught putting filler over anything but bare, freshly ground metal if you worked in a body shop. Filler was made to go over bare metal. That being said, it doesn't hurt to epoxy first but you definitely don't need to use it.
I've always done epoxy primer first then filler, but it's all restoration work.
What's your reason for using epoxy primer first? Do you let the vehicle set for a long time un-primed or un-painted after you do the filler work?
@@LakesideAutobody Well first, I make what is left of the car rust free, weld/replace panels, then put the car in epoxy primer. Then the car might sit for a while. When I'm ready for the next step I scuff the entire car, add filler where needed, and prime/sand for paint.
@@drcornelius8275 Got it - the sitting for a while is the reason for the epoxy. Thanks for getting back to me on that DR C - I appreciate the comment :)
I like this video
Can you put filler over rattle can primer? Not epoxy.
Yes - as long as the rattle can primer is sprayed on a well prepared surface.
Just put epoxy and worry bout rust later,..
No legends in this video?????????
WARNING! Never put filler direct to metal unless you hate the car owner. The primary reason you use an acid etch or an epoxy primer under filler is not for adhesion but so that there is a barrier between the filler and the metal that moisture cant pass through causing rust! If you dont use a primer then it will rust in time.
All body shops except maybe a few put filler directly over bare metal. That whole idea (primer first) came from the internet. When I worked (retired now) - it was completely embarrassing to get caught putting filler over primer, paint, etc. It was considered cheating because you found out your filler work was crooked after you primed & now it needs more. Any older body man reading this will agree. It's the paint's job to protect the metal from moisture - nothing else - 💯truth :)
@@LakesideAutobody The idea didnt come from the internet actually. Ive been professionally restoring cars for 37 years and ive been putting filler over etch and now epoxy all that time, there was no internet then. I would be embarrassed as well to put filler over any other paint or primer, you just dont do it but you definitely do with acid etch and epoxy. In the panel shops they only care about making money and lasting the warranty. If your restoring a car and you put filler over bare metal then it WILL rust and the filler will fall out in time no matter how good you think its adhered.This is because filler is a sponge and it instatly absorbs all the humidity in the air into itself, then it gets trapped there when you seal over it with paint. The primer prevents it from getting to the metal. If i may make a suggestion, go to "Carthage classic cars" and see how cars are properly restored. Body shops, and ive worked in plenty are shonks at the best of times. Body shops should stay right away from restoration work, they have no idea what they are doing. Only last point, in the old days when people were embarrassed to put filler over primer, that was because in those day we didnt have 2k primers and paints, 99% of shops were using acrylic primers and paints and spray putty, all pretty nasty stuff really and i agree, if you put filler over acrylic primer then you should be sacked. But this is 2k and acid. Cheers.