I've been laid up with the flu. I have watched a ton of your videos over the last couple of days and really enjoyed the content. I'm just up the road in Taylors.
Gotta measure the bore BEFORE buying new pistons. With the lead times on getting parts...like you said...it can be weeks, months or longer before you're back in business. And...some manufacturers/resellers won't take returns if you ordered the wrong size.
I always try to buy parts from the machine shop. Prevents the parts man from blaming the machinist and vice versa arguments from starting. Let your machinist make a little extra money! It will help him stay in business and he will be there when you need him.
its interesting, i had this conversation years ago with a machine shop I use.. i was so sure i could get the stroker kit I wanted at a Much better price.. so he asked me the exact kit I was looking to get.. he concurred that it was a very good setup.. but disagreed on the price.. he in fact could sell it to me cheaper than what I could buy it online as their shop dealt with the manufacturing company daily and had a great pricing structure from not only selling many of their products but also giving them props at shows and on their cars at the local tracks... I never questioned him again.. when i needed parts as part of machine work, I had the shop procure them..
I did the same thing, in a massively smaller scale...ha. Attempting to fully rebuild a 125 Honda motor cycle. Thought I could do it myself fairly cheap but it ended in me spending 3 x's the cost. Ordered parts from Ebay but they set for about 3 months as I was in the hospital. When I started the project, these supposed MADE IN THE US, was all China. Cheaply done and way out of speck. Couldn't get any response for the seller and eb just said it was too late. Wised up and took the motor to a guy like you, let him order the parts and do the work, and I ended up with an outstanding engine and some made in china jug line weights. I knew better
As a fellow Automotive machinist, enjoy watching your videos, the content rings true with what we machinists have to deal with..... I'm busy with a 350 pre vortec engine as we speak. The engine was done elsewhere and didn't even make 100 miles, after I teared it down I found so many issues, from a thou too big bore size to too much end float, ring gap double the size etc. Not to mention the mismatch of inlet manifold/cam/heads / pistons. I told the customer the price to rectify, he says it's too expensive........ Then he must take it elsewhere.
i had a good friend, an experienced mechanic, bring me an LS, he had torn down, ran through a machine shop. brings me it all in boxes and pieces. every thing is new. any old part taken out i was not needing was not here to measure or compare. his statement is , its all been checked, all machining done, everything you need is here, assemble it for me, and call me when its done. i back seated it while assembling other engines and transmissions. weekend rolled around, i figured hell i go knock that out. given it was at the machine shop been balanced, bored, decked, heads done and all new parts should be a nice clean stress free $$ maker for me. i checked bearing clearances, bore clearances, ring gaps, man this looks mint right on the $. many times i prefer to install crank, cam, timing, then #1 piston only and do my cam timing. being H beam rods, full float, i hung all pistons, rings, set rod bearings in, cranks in, cams in, degree wheel mounted, slide #1 in, and go for TDC and hmmmmmmmmmmm rod is 1/8" too long. wrong rods. same deal as you, all been balanced and no one caught it. knowing the machine shop owner, and he knows my customer well, he like me has assumed over the years this particular customer is spot on and always does it right, does not skimp on parts, does not cut corners, when i called the machine shop just to ask, hey by chance, did you check his rod lengths? or with all he has run through there in the last months, perhaps hand him a diff set of rods for another of his units? i got the OLE man, damn it, i knew better, but this guy have never made a mistake before getting his parts. we all get complacent at times, trusting companies and people. now we hear its a 4-12 week wait on rods, and shorter rods surely wont be heavier to remove more crank metal, so another crank is in order as well.
I made a mistake because I know too much. Background as an auto theft detective; found a used LS dirt cheap and verified the VIN as a 2004 out of an Avalanche. I did not look for the casting date because I knew the year of the truck. Turns out the block was cast in early 2002 requiring the long and short headbolts. I now have a set of short ARP bolts for an LS ready for another build when the time comes.
1 minute of your time of measuring 1 piston before balancing would have saved a lot of time and money. This is on you. Lesson learned. Always check parts before any machining process.
Again..."the customer States " and luckily the new pistons were the same weight..... If you want to drive you better know how or leave it to a professional
1 minute? Setting up the tool takes longer than that let alone cleaning the block enough to stick your several hundered dollar gauge down the bore. You also need to measure them all, not just one.
Welp.....that answered my question...I messed up already buying a complete rotating assembly for my chevy dart block...and it's been 3 years ago when the prices were lower....my bad...
I remember when I first started working in the garage, a customer asked my boss if he could buy his own parts and bring them in for install. The customer was the owner of a high end steak restaurant. My boss looked at him and asked him if he could bring his own steak into the restaurant and have him cook it. The customer looked astonished and just said OK. That was one of those lessons as teenager in the early 70's you don't get in a classroom.
Sadly with summit, jegs, amsracing and speedway, (the Walmart/kmart/sears/ and dollar general of parts stores) most shops just cant compete with parts prices and it’s saddening, and it kills a lot of mom & pop speed shops… it sucks but it happens all the time now and people won’t give the mom and pop shops a chance anymore
That must be especially frustrating in your line of work, things laying around for weeks or months. Not as bad as what you just described, but I had a customer schedule a timing belt service for his Honda Accord. Got year, make, model, engine size, but I didn't ask for the VIN. He said V6, needs the timing belt and water pump service due to mileage. I get a kit here, car shows up, 4 cyl. with a timing chain under the hood. The guy's been driving the thing for 11 years, I thought he would have known if it's a V6 or a 4 cyl.
There are numerous reasons why I do not let customers supply parts on 98% of the jobs I do. Often times, I can get them a better price on the parts anyway. But there are a few that insist, and I decline doing the work.
someone assumed the parts where correct here and put the cart before the horse, you do excellent work as the machinist no other way to put this the balance is on you. this is not your first rodeo trusting a custemer? this one your wrong. you dont care? I am shocked to hear you talk this way. the pistons are on the custemer, I brought my parts to my machinist [as he requested] he checked every part before proceeding with any work just protects him from wasting his time. I hope you read this and comments. thanks
The reason I don't care is the customer spent there money elsewhere, I only do what the customer pays me for, bethe qc department for them was not requested 9r paid for
Cool...I've heard of them do they have a good turn around time? Also, in the past I've actually bored wrist pins with carbide to pull out weight. I ran into this same situation a few times. Thanks
It took a long time for me to fill my cart with the correct parts to put together a rotating assembly. The crank was pretty easy the rods and pistons took a long time finding the correct ones in my budget. You think you've found the perfect pistons then you realize it's the wrong bore size or it won't work with the rod length etc. I had to get all the parts before my machinist would start on the block because he wanted to measure everything first. I can see how it can happen you have to sort through a ton of parts.
Could they not have the pistons cryo coated to make up the difference and have a better product at the end not real sure how much that coating adds but if it was me I would check? Thanks for the vids great work
What are they can always buy a block that don't need to be bored. Or buy new set of pistons and hope the Pistons wait the same close to the ones you have
The only time I'd buy pistons before measuring is if i know that i wanna go to a bigger diameter piston. Example i want to build up a Mazda BP4W next year. Going from 83.5mm to 85/85.5mm. In that case you make the block fit the new piston, doesn't work the other way around
I am not a fan of the 'new HEMI'. From what I'm seeing on other channels, they need a lot of work done in the machine shop. Every Time. What are your thoughts on the Dodge 318/360 Magnum engines? I personally don't see folks having a lot of problems with them.
I had a small block for stroker built and had the machine shop build it so if anything happened I would not be blamed. Had a valve drop from valve float he blamed it on me saying I told him it’s only a track car not street but it was a hydraulic roller specifically because it was a street car. I pick the heads up and when I got home I noticed the valve springs were changed. What happened was he lied saying the heads came bare because I called the factory that made them and they said they do not offer them bare so he charged me for valves and springs that he didn’t even do he left them how they came.
Since everythings already balanced, how costly would it be to sleeve all the cylinders or just get another block? shuld be less than $1500 that you stated for ordering new pistons and labor,
I certainly agree that the customer should let you provide the parts, but you are wrong about it not being your responsibility to confirm the parts that they bring in. Yes, charge them for doing the confirmation, but professionally it is YOUR responsibility to confirm what they bring in.
The customer said they were right. Full stop. Daniel is not there to nurse maid the customer. Neither is he being paid to do so. If the customer has enough knowledge to know what a piston is and what size it needs to be, plus where to buy them then the customer takes full responsibility for what he is providing.
I've never understood the concept of buying your own parts when you have no intention or ability to put them in yourself... It's bad enough when people try it for general auto repair. I can't even imagine what it'd be like for a machine shop. I would just feel like such a sleezeball doing that. You're buying the parts for virtually the same price yet you'd rather give the markup to some faceless corporation rather than the individual doing the work how has to warranty the work whether it's their fault or not...
The reason I would order my own parts is when I want specific parts or when they're hard to find. When I needed new springs for my 2004 GTO there is one US distributor to get them and you have to know the ordering process, so I ordered those myself and took them to the shop.
I don't qualify customer supplied part's, if you bring me a ford piston for a chevy I will do whatever u say, if you wanna drive great, but if I'm driving we do it my way
When I started in the machine shop field my boss, a toolmaker, said something to me,that he even said someone said to him when he started, always verify, mic your end mills, drill bits reamers etc. in this field it's easier to take it off than it is to put it back on, that's why carpenters are failed machinists. No offense from me towards carpenters.
When you order new parts such as Pistons, do you just assume that they're exactly the right size as they are marked? Or do you measure them to confirm their size? I hope you measure them because you and I both know markings aren't always accurate. You should also measure a piston that a customer supplies to see if it will work by the same token as you would any new piston that you order. You balancing the rotating assembly with pistons that won't work is absolutely on you. Whether the customer supplied the wrong part or not.
#1 we ALWAYS measure the piston, how do you think we set the dial bore gauge? #2 the Engine builder gave us instructions on what to do, it's his problem he purchased part's that won't work....not mine
Ok Mr Wisdom....did you not hear the man say he does not get paid to inspect YOUR new parts. He was paid to BALANCE them. Do you expect a farmer to give you apples after you gave him oranges to plant?
I've been laid up with the flu. I have watched a ton of your videos over the last couple of days and really enjoyed the content. I'm just up the road in Taylors.
Glad you like them!
Gotta measure the bore BEFORE buying new pistons. With the lead times on getting parts...like you said...it can be weeks, months or longer before you're back in business. And...some manufacturers/resellers won't take returns if you ordered the wrong size.
One day they will learn
yea my cp's were 3 months
I always try to buy parts from the machine shop. Prevents the parts man from blaming the machinist and vice versa arguments from starting. Let your machinist make a little extra money! It will help him stay in business and he will be there when you need him.
its interesting, i had this conversation years ago with a machine shop I use.. i was so sure i could get the stroker kit I wanted at a Much better price.. so he asked me the exact kit I was looking to get.. he concurred that it was a very good setup.. but disagreed on the price.. he in fact could sell it to me cheaper than what I could buy it online as their shop dealt with the manufacturing company daily and had a great pricing structure from not only selling many of their products but also giving them props at shows and on their cars at the local tracks... I never questioned him again.. when i needed parts as part of machine work, I had the shop procure them..
That's how it should be
I did the same thing, in a massively smaller scale...ha. Attempting to fully rebuild a 125 Honda motor cycle. Thought I could do it myself fairly cheap but it ended in me spending 3 x's the cost. Ordered parts from Ebay but they set for about 3 months as I was in the hospital. When I started the project, these supposed MADE IN THE US, was all China. Cheaply done and way out of speck. Couldn't get any response for the seller and eb just said it was too late.
Wised up and took the motor to a guy like you, let him order the parts and do the work, and I ended up with an outstanding engine and some made in china jug line weights.
I knew better
As a fellow Automotive machinist, enjoy watching your videos, the content rings true with what we machinists have to deal with.....
I'm busy with a 350 pre vortec engine as we speak.
The engine was done elsewhere and didn't even make 100 miles, after I teared it down I found so many issues, from a thou too big bore size to too much end float, ring gap double the size etc.
Not to mention the mismatch of inlet manifold/cam/heads / pistons.
I told the customer the price to rectify, he says it's too expensive........
Then he must take it elsewhere.
💯, I agree
i had a good friend, an experienced mechanic, bring me an LS, he had torn down, ran through a machine shop. brings me it all in boxes and pieces. every thing is new. any old part taken out i was not needing was not here to measure or compare. his statement is , its all been checked, all machining done, everything you need is here, assemble it for me, and call me when its done. i back seated it while assembling other engines and transmissions. weekend rolled around, i figured hell i go knock that out. given it was at the machine shop been balanced, bored, decked, heads done and all new parts should be a nice clean stress free $$ maker for me.
i checked bearing clearances, bore clearances, ring gaps, man this looks mint right on the $. many times i prefer to install crank, cam, timing, then #1 piston only and do my cam timing. being H beam rods, full float, i hung all pistons, rings, set rod bearings in, cranks in, cams in, degree wheel mounted, slide #1 in, and go for TDC and hmmmmmmmmmmm rod is 1/8" too long. wrong rods. same deal as you, all been balanced and no one caught it. knowing the machine shop owner, and he knows my customer well, he like me has assumed over the years this particular customer is spot on and always does it right, does not skimp on parts, does not cut corners, when i called the machine shop just to ask, hey by chance, did you check his rod lengths? or with all he has run through there in the last months, perhaps hand him a diff set of rods for another of his units? i got the OLE man, damn it, i knew better, but this guy have never made a mistake before getting his parts. we all get complacent at times, trusting companies and people. now we hear its a 4-12 week wait on rods, and shorter rods surely wont be heavier to remove more crank metal, so another crank is in order as well.
We have rod's
I made a mistake because I know too much. Background as an auto theft detective; found a used LS dirt cheap and verified the VIN as a 2004 out of an Avalanche. I did not look for the casting date because I knew the year of the truck. Turns out the block was cast in early 2002 requiring the long and short headbolts. I now have a set of short ARP bolts for an LS ready for another build when the time comes.
It happens
1 minute of your time of measuring 1 piston before balancing would have saved a lot of time and money. This is on you. Lesson learned. Always check parts before any machining process.
Again..."the customer States " and luckily the new pistons were the same weight..... If you want to drive you better know how or leave it to a professional
1 minute? Setting up the tool takes longer than that let alone cleaning the block enough to stick your several hundered dollar gauge down the bore. You also need to measure them all, not just one.
Welp.....that answered my question...I messed up already buying a complete rotating assembly for my chevy dart block...and it's been 3 years ago when the prices were lower....my bad...
I remember when I first started working in the garage, a customer asked my boss if he could buy his own parts and bring them in for install. The customer was the owner of a high end steak restaurant. My boss looked at him and asked him if he could bring his own steak into the restaurant and have him cook it. The customer looked astonished and just said OK. That was one of those lessons as teenager in the early 70's you don't get in a classroom.
So many expensive boat anchors find their way to machine shops.
Yep
Sure enjoy hearing your thoughts on machine work👍
Thanks 👍
Sadly with summit, jegs, amsracing and speedway, (the Walmart/kmart/sears/ and dollar general of parts stores) most shops just cant compete with parts prices and it’s saddening, and it kills a lot of mom & pop speed shops… it sucks but it happens all the time now and people won’t give the mom and pop shops a chance anymore
Definitely
Been there seen that more than I care to talk about.
So frustrating.
Take care.
Absolutely
Thank you for your knowledge and video's USA 🇺🇸
That must be especially frustrating in your line of work, things laying around for weeks or months.
Not as bad as what you just described, but I had a customer schedule a timing belt service for his Honda Accord. Got year, make, model, engine size, but I didn't ask for the VIN. He said V6, needs the timing belt and water pump service due to mileage. I get a kit here, car shows up, 4 cyl. with a timing chain under the hood. The guy's been driving the thing for 11 years, I thought he would have known if it's a V6 or a 4 cyl.
Lol, it's scary out there
Never believe the customer knows what he's got.
There are numerous reasons why I do not let customers supply parts on 98% of the jobs I do. Often times, I can get them a better price on the parts anyway. But there are a few that insist, and I decline doing the work.
If w we are assembling, customers are not allowed to bring part's, but just Machine work I allow it
@@powellmachineinc3179 Reasonable enough. My patience for it has worn too thin. You are a better man than I.
someone assumed the parts where correct here and put the cart before the horse, you do excellent work as the machinist no other way to put this the balance is on you. this is not your first rodeo trusting a custemer? this one your wrong. you dont care? I am shocked to hear you talk this way. the pistons are on the custemer, I brought my parts to my machinist [as he requested] he checked every part before proceeding with any work just protects him from wasting his time. I hope you read this and comments. thanks
The reason I don't care is the customer spent there money elsewhere, I only do what the customer pays me for, bethe qc department for them was not requested 9r paid for
Could get the pistons line to line coated...just a thought. Thanks for sharing.
Yes we use calico
Cool...I've heard of them do they have a good turn around time? Also, in the past I've actually bored wrist pins with carbide to pull out weight. I ran into this same situation a few times. Thanks
I'm about halfway through the video and I know where you're going with this.
It took a long time for me to fill my cart with the correct parts to put together a rotating assembly. The crank was pretty easy the rods and pistons took a long time finding the correct ones in my budget. You think you've found the perfect pistons then you realize it's the wrong bore size or it won't work with the rod length etc. I had to get all the parts before my machinist would start on the block because he wanted to measure everything first. I can see how it can happen you have to sort through a ton of parts.
Could they not have the pistons cryo coated to make up the difference and have a better product at the end not real sure how much that coating adds but if it was me I would check? Thanks for the vids great work
What are they can always buy a block that don't need to be bored. Or buy new set of pistons and hope the Pistons wait the same close to the ones you have
Yup
The only time I'd buy pistons before measuring is if i know that i wanna go to a bigger diameter piston.
Example i want to build up a Mazda BP4W next year. Going from 83.5mm to 85/85.5mm. In that case you make the block fit the new piston, doesn't work the other way around
Sad story. Penny-wise, pound-foolish.
Sleeve all 8 holes hone to fit the pistons.
That would cost twice as much as just getting the correct pistons.....
@@powellmachineinc3179You could do a weekly "dumb comments" video with material like this.
I am not a fan of the 'new HEMI'. From what I'm seeing on other channels, they need a lot of work done in the machine shop. Every Time.
What are your thoughts on the Dodge 318/360 Magnum engines? I personally don't see folks having a lot of problems with them.
I had a small block for stroker built and had the machine shop build it so if anything happened I would not be blamed. Had a valve drop from valve float he blamed it on me saying I told him it’s only a track car not street but it was a hydraulic roller specifically because it was a street car. I pick the heads up and when I got home I noticed the valve springs were changed. What happened was he lied saying the heads came bare because I called the factory that made them and they said they do not offer them bare so he charged me for valves and springs that he didn’t even do he left them how they came.
Since everythings already balanced, how costly would it be to sleeve all the cylinders or just get another block? shuld be less than $1500 that you stated for ordering new pistons and labor,
Lucky the customer was able to swap for .010 over pistons and the weight is within. 5 grams so it's gonna be fine
Ouch
I certainly agree that the customer should let you provide the parts, but you are wrong about it not being your responsibility to confirm the parts that they bring in. Yes, charge them for doing the confirmation, but professionally it is YOUR responsibility to confirm what they bring in.
We can disagree,
The customer said they were right. Full stop. Daniel is not there to nurse maid the customer. Neither is he being paid to do so. If the customer has enough knowledge to know what a piston is and what size it needs to be, plus where to buy them then the customer takes full responsibility for what he is providing.
Would it be easier for the customer to get a 6.4 block and not pistons? I don't know how much pistons were or a used a 6.4 block.
I think a block would be hard to find. Idk
@@powellmachineinc3179 I have no idea either. 🤷♂️
I've never understood the concept of buying your own parts when you have no intention or ability to put them in yourself... It's bad enough when people try it for general auto repair. I can't even imagine what it'd be like for a machine shop. I would just feel like such a sleezeball doing that. You're buying the parts for virtually the same price yet you'd rather give the markup to some faceless corporation rather than the individual doing the work how has to warranty the work whether it's their fault or not...
The reason I would order my own parts is when I want specific parts or when they're hard to find. When I needed new springs for my 2004 GTO there is one US distributor to get them and you have to know the ordering process, so I ordered those myself and took them to the shop.
Send the block out have it checked/measured then order
Yeah, it's that simple
Almost be cheaper to find a block
you dont have have to rebalance it if the pistons are with in 10 grams
Yeah but can't we just make the bore diameter smaller ??
Sleeve all 8 cylinders
Sleeve it
And who will buy the sleeves - the customer?? Then lead time and who pays. Daniel does not need to go down that rabbit hole.
RESPECTFULLY! You are a pro machinist and never checked the piston to bore before you balanced the assembly? Again, respectfully!
I don't qualify customer supplied part's, if you bring me a ford piston for a chevy I will do whatever u say, if you wanna drive great, but if I'm driving we do it my way
When I started in the machine shop field my boss, a toolmaker, said something to me,that he even said someone said to him when he started, always verify, mic your end mills, drill bits reamers etc. in this field it's easier to take it off than it is to put it back on, that's why carpenters are failed machinists. No offense from me towards carpenters.
When you order new parts such as Pistons, do you just assume that they're exactly the right size as they are marked? Or do you measure them to confirm their size? I hope you measure them because you and I both know markings aren't always accurate. You should also measure a piston that a customer supplies to see if it will work by the same token as you would any new piston that you order. You balancing the rotating assembly with pistons that won't work is absolutely on you. Whether the customer supplied the wrong part or not.
#1 we ALWAYS measure the piston, how do you think we set the dial bore gauge?
#2 the Engine builder gave us instructions on what to do, it's his problem he purchased part's that won't work....not mine
#3 🙋♂️🪄✨️🎩✨️🐇✨️🪺🙋♂️
Ok Mr Wisdom....did you not hear the man say he does not get paid to inspect YOUR new parts. He was paid to BALANCE them.
Do you expect a farmer to give you apples after you gave him oranges to plant?
bore it and add bigger rings lol
We got .010 over pistons and fitted them properly
Ouch
We got it sorted out