The Failure of the XM17 Modular Handgun Program
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
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It blows my mind, that the same güberment that wastes 100's of billions of dollars per year, decides to worry about pennies on the dollar for our soldiers' side arm.
The military screwed around for nearly ten years looking for a replacement for the M9. Even Congress got upset about the waste of time and money, with one representative joking that the military could simply go to a large sporting goods retailer with a credit card and buy whatever handguns they needed. So what did the Army do? They had two good candidates and simply picked the one that was on sale. To hell with all the messing around they did for so many years looking for the "perfect" handgun.
If the money can’t go into a Democrats pocket they don’t give af about it
If the Army REALLY wanted to save a few bucks, they would’ve gone and bought the Beretta M9A3! Not only would the A3 being able to satisfy 80-90% of the Army requirements, it’s also fully compatible with the million dollar worth of the original M9 parts and tools out there already! But NnnnnOoooo! We can’t have that can we? We must corrupt millions of dollars here by getting a modern striker fired pistol!!!!!! And even then, I believe the G19X is a far better platform than the Sig, especially since both had already proven you can drop them from a two story building and not go off. Meanwhile, the Sig will never be able to live down its infamous “drop it from 12 inches and it’ll blow your leg off” fiasco cause the army didn’t even conduct a drop test for it! Ohh well! Corruption anyone?
It seems Sig used the good old Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, GE approach to putting forward a military project. Massively undercut the price and pray to God you have a no fault contract and end up fixing the issues later when it is too late to change.
You must work for Boeing because they are the king of undercutting and change orders. Remember GMD.
TheTaurus1988 both are trash
@@TheTaurus1988 Dude, Lockheed makes Boeing look like a saint...
Honestly, GE products tend to have a really good service record and perform satisfactorily. Pratt and Whitney (Pratt n' Shitney) tends to be the corporate welfare project....
@@echodelta2172 Ok dude? boeing still cant hit anything with an Interceptor even after all the GMD change orders, they should stick to planes.
I kinda feel like maybe Sig was willing to take a loss on the government contract, in order to receive significant increase in sales from the LEO community and private sales. Securing the army contract would produce a lot of confidence from buyers in other avenues. Glock was probably more straight up in trying to actually achieve a reasonable profit.
Without a doubt they were,they were still so pissed that the p226 lost to beretta 92 that they weren't ever going to let that happen again
Just to be sued by some and have departments dump the P320s.
@@Rnemhrd that’s what happens when you use a really garbage design (P250) then convert it to striker fired while adding so many extra parts.
And all because kids think that “mil spec” and “the military uses it so it has to be great” end up buying the product when generally speaking when it comes to small arms, consumers can buy something much better. There is no way that the standard issue M4 is better than my LMT MARS-L 12.5, HK MR556A1 or even my Daniel Defense. I am personally glad that Sig won the new NGSW weapon. Now all the dumb dumbs can go buy it and the actual good stuff will be on the shelves and cheaper.
@@AutopilotAndChill I'm rather happy with my spear LT's though. Will say, best 7.62 range time I ever had.
The problem is: when you need your sidearm, you REALLY F*CKING NEED your Sidearm, because something already has gone wrong to come to this situation of needing your backup.
And in this situation the pistol has to work
Agree !
Handgun is the last line of defense imho. 100% reliable and big holes.
Well more than anything, now adayz there’s not exactly a lot of conflict in the world so the handgun has become not much more than a symbol of authority
@@mikhailmorev8071 Until you need it .
yep if you have to pull the side arm.. you done fucked up long ago...
@@mikhailmorev8071 what you said is like saying ive been not carrying for 30 years why start now??? you will never need it till you need it..
I agree with most what you said, but who gives you this delusional thought of US army wants what is the best for their soldiers?
🤣
Best comment 😂
That’s how Sig saved the tax payers $100 million; they put out a product and prayed they would get a no-blame-contract so they could use the buyer as a QC group and fix things after they solidified the deal. Glock got screwed and Sig winning the way they did is gross
SIG ceo Cohen is slimy, dishonest and gross
Sig had just lost the fbi contract to Glock I think this played a part in them practically giving the pistols away
Frankly, none of this surprises me given the “trials” to select the UCP camouflage pattern.
One point that I think is important to make is
that the US soldier is not accustomed to believing that the equipment they’re using really is the best. While historically firearm selection has been on-again off-again good, the selection of pretty much all other equipment has mostly been terrible. The army’s TA-50, or individual equipment (like magazine pouches, vests, etc.) is all crap, leading a very high percentage of soldiers to buy much better commercial products. When I was at Basic Officer Leadership Course training, we were encouraged to use the army issued stuff, with the school of thought being if the officers all used the good stuff, the lower enlisted men would feel like they had too, and go out and buy stuff with money they didn’t have.
People are so hard on the M9 despite its tests , high reliability and serving the soldiers well, and being owned by soldiers that didn’t upkeep them while beating them to death and spreading fudlore for decades.
Meanwhile sig gets a pat on the back and a blind eye and people simp the damn thing
Anything to overthrow the king
Still prefer the M11 I used over it.
At the time of your comment and the video, I don't think many people used a M17/18 just yet. However, it appears now they are starting to roll them out. I'm guessing we'll start to hear talks about its failures once the pistol gets abused for a while and age catches up with it.
Don forget Uncle Sam sending overpowered ammunition that screwed the slides after prolongued use, and trying to blame Beretta.
I have both an M9 and a Sig P320. Both are great pistols. That being said I think that big army just wanted a new toy to play with. Big army developed the M-16/M4 platforms and fine tuned it. But didn't stop to think to do that to the M9.
Beretta even came out with the M9A3 and M9A4 pistols which are damned fine guns. And they weren't even given a chance, Glock and Beretta had proven platforms that have been in use for decades. Sig introduced a new design and was unproven at that point and had a lot of bugs initially.
We've always been told our weapons are made by the lowest bidder.
This is literally the m14 fiasco v2
This mirrors the M14 fiasco nearly perfectly, were the M9 fiasco mirrored the m16 fiasco perfectly. Seems like after WW2, the US army politicians did everything wrong, and killed allot of our solders.
Funny, we use the M18 (compact version of the M17) and we had someone who needed a smaller grip...….guess what they did not get for the range. (Spoiler: it wasn`t a smaller grip)
I think sig lowballed to get the bid and planned on making up the difference in the commercial and LEO market by being able to say this is the side arm of the U.S military. Glock would have been a better choice just due to having the bugs worked out over decades in service.
As always... "Your weapon was built by the lowest bidder".
So the highest bidder was just a made up stuff? I often hear that a lot in media.
Your weapon is ALWAYS built by the lowest bidder that can produce a product that meets the specifications.
My dad was an Air Force armorer for almost 20 years and liked the M-9 after they fixed the locking block cracking problem.
From what I read, the "fix" was for the U.S. Government use ammo that was prescribed for it; those few instances of cracking slides and such was due to Navy SEALs and others putting too many high pressure rounds through them, and the United States was the only country that had problems with the M9, all others followed the manufacturer's instructions.
@@JohnFourtyTwo is it because of it needs to be manufactured in US for foreign products?
@@Joshua_N-A Barretta USA, the U.S. division of Barretta Italy, made all M9 sidearms for military use, I'm not familiar with other countries requirements for country of origin manufacturing other than the US.
The entire time I actually thought they were going to do beretta, S&W, or Glock. I found them choosing Sig very suspicious especially when sigs usually go for a premium (higher price than most competitors).
Sig is normally a very reliable and very worthwhile produce from what I've heard.
That fn509 was better then the sig
Well sig lost out on the m9 contract to beretta because beretta underbid their p226 which I think anyone who’s owned or shot both it doesn’t take much to confirm the 226 is better than the beretta m9’s. So sig took that background and did the same to Glock. I applaud Glock for not massively undercutting their prices and standing behind their product because at this point their brand doesn’t need to be sold. Everyone knows they make the most reliable and overall best modern 9mm striker fired pistol. If you wanted the glocks the army knew the price. Sig seems like they want to be the main supplier for the army with their next gen squad weapons, the pistol contracts, tango 6 optic is already on the new army dmr’s etc.
@@dontneedtoknow5836 yeah they are normally far superior, but they had to make a cheap plastic striker toy like glick
Sig's don't cost much more for the quality and ergonomics, by the time you upgrade a glick you spend more anyway. The p320 was made to compete with glick and prices the same
Always nice to hear it from a guy that's crossed his T's and dotted his I's. Been looking for a while for another professional on youtube and I'll be referancing you from now on. I'd like to see anyone cover velcro with this kinda detail. Thanks for the quality content.
Theres a slew of reasons I wont be reenlisting and this is certainly one of them. For those of you who dont see the point in getting the best pistol because it's a "backup" know that in a tank crew not everyone is issued a rifle. Atleast one guy (the driver) will only have a pistol and if a 240B conversion kit isnt provided for the loader he will be using one as well.
I serve with a senior officer who was on the source selection team at Aberdeen. This person’s integrity is beyond reproach....but not a gun enthusiast. Federal acquisition regulations are maddening, and the DoD acquisition bureaucracy is phenomenal in its complexity. This pistol was selected based on approved requirements (which are always minimum requirements), and at a $100 mil lower bid it was the obvious winner. The P320 wouldn’t be my personal pick, but as a sidearm I have a hard time getting too excited about it. I do, however, very much appreciate your perspective...I wish every citizen was as interested and patriotic as you.
AF-O6 1.8 million subscribers without a video?
b. griffin weird I see 1,872,039 subs.
Maybe my phone is just going crazy.
travis Winegarden I have exactly zero subscribers, as nobody would care what I have to say!
Lol
agreed
Mrgunsngear Channel Please bring back Brittany the first time shooter. Your channel is already excellent,she’s just that little extra that holds the attention
@Joe Bradley Any askers?
Navy Seals issue Glocks.
Recon and Raiders issue Glock.
Most of law enforcement issue Glocks.
Most of our NATO for and allies issue Glocks.
US Army, we need a new gun but which one?... Sig it is! Good work General you've earned a second star.
My sig .40 was able to be converted to .357 Sig and it is actually a very CAPABLE round.. that being said.. mine and also my friends sig was bullet proof in torture tests but unfortunately neither one could keep a reliable grouping no matter who was shooting and it became a game to determine who could consistantly keep a 3 shot grouping it literally was amazing besides that and unfortunately that is a big fucking problem! No it wasnt the shooter (s) the problem is when we contacted sig they had informed us that the sig sighting process was not what is the " normal" sight picture people come to expect from the type of sight isnt at all what the weapon is set up for.. the problem became a PROBLEM IS WHEN I CONTACTED THEM A SECOND TIME WHEN THIS DIDNT WORK FOR THE WEAPON AND I GOT A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ANSWER! AMAZING!
And a cushy new job at Sig when you retire
Germany has H&K P8A1,. I have a H&K USP Match in .45 auto. Guess what, the P8 slide fits and works with the USP`s lower. Only the Mag is different. That is modular ...
Seals used Sig's for years, army used berreta for years, most law uses sig now, sorry dude, your Glick and the bestest unless it's in call of duty
At the time of this video, I never seen an M17/18 in service. However, as of about 8 months ago, I notice the MPs at my local base carrying the M17 pistol. I do like the M17 but feel there were some rough starting point but overall it was a good move. I feel the biggest flaws of the M9 program were addressed mainly with the consistent trigger pull, safety update, and magazines.
This channel is the most important channel in CZcams. Thank god someone is putting the right info out for everyone to find if they so please.
Military doesn't buy the best they a buy combo of quality and price
And production capability.
I have had this experience while working for a government body that awarded multi million dollar civil engineering projects. I had experience in the private sector, and I knew what the private contractors did in order to win contracts. You can not award contracts based on cost alone. I warned the incompetent employees that the contractors were only pricing so low because they were using incompetent draftsmen (unqualified low cost) and once work was started flaws would be found in the design that would require rework and investigation at the design phase and delays at the construction phase. Both of these issues result in costs not budgeted for in the form of adjustments which results in the project going over budget and late in delivery. The morons that get into positions of responsibility in government bodies can be absolute morons other no idea what they are doing, and they can be arrogant enough to blunder forward until a convenient position can be found to park them with the least responsibility possible or they screw up so bad that it is grounds for dismissal. Often they can waste millions of dollars of public funds before something is done about them.
I feel that, and I witness it at work everyday.
Does that happen with PMC though?
Yep, seen that more than once being a .gov employee.. oh that's an extra... Oh unforseen work... That's an extra... And it all gets approved.
Buddy of mine was a tanker , M1 Abrams tank commander. He was issued a M9 since tankers didn't really get rifles in the 1990's. He qualified expert, other than that he never shot it other than for score. He carried it more that shot it , but he said , " I'm in a tank with coax machine gun, M2( Ma Deuce) and main gun, don't really need much more." Only reason such MOS's and officers carry a handgun is they don't always or ever carry a rifle.
When I was in government it all boiled down to cost period. I was told cheaper was better and find the cheapest supplier, when buying anything to cut corners. That pertained to our uniforms, gear, ammo weapons etc.
MontanaMountainMen sounds like he could have used a p90 or a HKMP7
His statement at 12:15 saying the military doesn't know if a Glock will work in cold temp's has already been done -Alaska Police -I think the Fairbanks guys have got the experience on this one. I like both guns I hope Sig makes it work now that we are past the selection point.
Glenn Rhodes that’s hearsay. I stopped trusting people in middle school bro, why do you yet?
M9A3 all day.
The armorer's are already trained for M9s.
We already have M9 magazines, holsters, spare parts, accessories etc.
All parts are interchangeable.
Some idiot thought we needed a new gun and that idiot probably has ties to Sig Sauer and is probably getting a comfy kickback.
I'm not in the army, but I'm sure other branches will pick these up.
No, we really needed something new. The m9 only fit one category and that was of a full-size pistol. The A3 would need new holsters and Accessories. Was Sig the best? probably not, but was it the worst? No. This is the Army we are talking about and no weapon ever has just been adopted into the Army without modifications or variation.
@@StrainXv What would you consider to be the best?
Mitas Might there is no best. You learn to use what you get.
Problem is the m9a3 would have cost more to adopt than the p320
The M9s we have in service are beat to shit and can barely finish a mag. A new pistol is desperately what the military needs. Trying to upgrade our old M9s would cost easily as much as out fitting our troops with new pistols.
Military procurement has never been about providing the military with the best weapons.
*cough* M16 *cough cough*
@@LUR1FAX Nothing wrong with the M16, that is when it's not plagued with obscene opposition.
I mean, the best weapon would probably cost 4 grand, you cant outfit a entire military with sidearms that expensive lol. Same with rifles, could easily dump 10k into an ar platform rifle with all the fancy shit out there.
ELCAPULLO GALACTICO why was it?
@@recipoldinasty it was to replace Garands, BARs, and M1 Carbines with one type of service weapon hence the M14 have full auto. In Italy however, Beretta just convert the M1 Garands into BM59s with Garand tooling and less the cost and fire the 7.62x51 NATO round.
At the end of the day, it seems like some general may have gotten a nice kickback from sig to select their pistol. I served in the Army infantry for 15 years. I carried an M9 for about 3 years as a machine gunnner. In the 3 years I carried the M9, I went to the range to qualify with it one time. At the end of the day, pistols in the regular army are under used and not very well maintained. The average soldier does not get his hands on the hand guns. Officers carry them for show.
Come on, You know generals are not getting money from manufacturers. If they had chosen your favorite pet gun you would rejoice. Battles are not won or lost over handgun decisions. Most of our soldiers could do just as well with 100-year old revolvers (which are just as deadly and preferred over many of the modern current options).
@@RustebadgeFollow the money on the Harris radios...Generals and beaurocrats get the cash...
@@Rustebadgethey do though. They get put on the board and don’t have to do a thing except go to the parties every 3 months. I mean the “quarterly reports”.
Very good point about the contractual obligations of the Government to complete the tests. Very unfair on the companies involved.
Some politician got a pocket full of money!
Being a Navy vet from the early 90’s, the pistol and the shotgun were our primary weapons. The “wise” officers in charge finally realized that the m14 sucked for cqb of drug interdiction operations. Still love my 1911!
We have them, currently called the xm17. The pistol comes as kit. It comes with three frames sizes and a modular holster system. Most that I know who has shot them loves them. That said it's a brand new pistol, not a 20-30 year old stock. My biggest complaint is the manual safety on a dao pistol.
Hi Chris
I absolutely respect your Commitment to the Truth and you diligence
to find and communicate the Truth on these and other Firearms. I tell everyone
I can; you are the Go to Guy for Facts.
I Respect you and your Diligence to find the Facts.
Thank you for doing what you do!
Robert
"Good enough for government work" lol wish we could find out how well the other competitors did in relation to these 2. I did hear the M&P 2.0 was knocked out 1st
@@randymagnum143 the M&P is in improved version of the sigma, which got s&w sued by glock.
@@randymagnum143 can you not read? Nowhere did i say that glock was the first striker fired pistol. Learn to read.
The glock is quite different than the VP70, so it is not a clone. The original sigmas, which the M&P's are based off, are pretty much direct copies of the glock. S&W even had to pay a settlement to glock because of this
Randy Magnum There’s plenty of documentation of S&W being sued by Glock after they came out with the Sigma... successfully I might add.
I have two m&p 2.0... one is a 9mm, it's a good gun. Nothing special except that when I got it, the price was awesome for all the features and construction materials... recently I purchased a m&p EZ .380 for my grandma... I really like that gun, not because I would carry it, but because they made it perfect for her and thousands of people with weak hands... she can pull the slide, release the mag, pull the trigger all like i do on other firearms... thats amazing for her with the arthritis in her hands...I couldn't get her to be able to function anything else with her struggling, and I mean everything, including revolvers. The dbl action is to stiff and she could never get the cylinder release to function.... the best about the EZ series is the 9mm was also easy for her to function... I just figured 380 would be best because of recoil as she's recoil sensitive...
I’m definitely showing up late to the show but as an Active Duty Soldier I can say I love the M-17. It is a very manageable pistol and easy to shoot for inexperienced new Soldiers. Some of the guys are having trouble transitioning from the M9 but for the most part, qualification is going well. I was kind of pissed the 19x wasn’t picked but in hindsight after shooting both, I prefer the Sig. Also, we only get the medium sized grips and are issued the Sigs with the black furniture, not the ones they sell as the legitimate M-17 with all tan furniture. Great video!
Yes, totally agreed. I'm a HUGE M9 fanboy and have several different M9s in my collection and recently picked up a M9a4. However, the trigger pull was one of the biggest problems I've seen with the pistol and the M17/18 seems to have way better and more consistent trigger pull. It's much easier to shoot and much easier to train with. I seen people having a very hard time with the M9 and many fail to even hit their targets. It is a hard pistol to shoot for some people.
@@Dan-di9jdcould you consider that the M9s currently in service are so shot out that the rifling no longer stabilizes the bullets? the M9 seemed to be plagued with lack of maintenance
We actually did get to change our grip sizes out to fit our hand in my unit lol
I really enjoy all your videos. Thank you for taking the time to make them. I just watched your background video and wow...so, so much experience & knowledge. Born & raised Dallas and really just started enjoying shooting in the last 10 years. I really started with Glock 17 and it has been 100% reliable along with several others including the 19 g3 and gen 4 and now gen 5. I'm saying this because it's hard to be objective when my experience has been with mainly 1 brand. I agree with you and should have been tested correctly. Keep up the great job!
Nice response sir. I carried, used and taught with a Glock product for 29 years and can say that Glock has their fair share of engineering and maintenance problems. Our police departments witched to S&W 2.0's in 2018 and have never been happier.
Thank you. I always enjoy your videos and learn from them. Our soldiers deserve the best weapons and gear.
Grew up on the m9 and got the m17 a few years ago. If I could, I’d carry my personal m9a3 over the sig.
Modular made it heavier and high more axis.
Wonder how much it is per pistol? $100
I dont like them. But in 10 years people will either love or hate the p320.
Wish glock produced one with a better grip angle.
That's the reason I use Glocks. Angle fits me better.
so glad to see this channel back... an absolute fountain of information
Glad police departments have a different selection process. My police department changed from Glock Model 22 to the S&W M&P 2.0. Wow, what a great decision. The 2.0 shoots so much easier with the grip angle and trigger, less muzzle rise. It was much easier to teach gunfighting (not shooting) to officers, especially newer officers. The Glocks had numerous failures. I think the mounted lights were the problem. Anyway, we were glad (even the Glock boys loved it). Almost any quality pistol will serve during a close quarters gunfight.
The only time "price" should be a part of the equation is when two manufacturers come out on top of testing. Just like sig and Beretta did back in the day. Then it should come down to price..
i tried to pay attention..but all i can focus on is the massive amount of MK262 ammo behind you...drooooooooool
You and me both dude! That shits a buck a piece if it's black hills. Looks like 2000 round cases. :0
I agree! Today that shit is GOLD!!!!
Part of the reality of the situation that's super mess up is that in the eyes of certain people working to supply the military with new equipment, they kinda see certain tools as just tools. They think of pistols kinda like most people think of staple guns. Just this random thing you can pick off the shelf from any hardware store and it'll do the trick. Usually backfires on em.
On the bright side, the government can buy 7 air conditioners and a hammer with the 100 million they saved...
Agree with everything you’ve said. But as far as civilian sales, Glock is laughing all the way to the bank. The 19x has far outsold the MHS17. Specifically at out shop we’ve sold one MHS and can’t keep the 19x in stock.
And that's with build your own clones competing as well.
If the m9 beat the testing twice and went beyond the test criteria why replace it? Do either of these pistols have a sufficient advantage over the Berretta to make it worthwhile?
No. Just somebody wanting a new toy and the government wasting money as usual
Sig was still so pissed about the beretta winning they were willing to cut every corner to win this time around.
CZ P09 was in the test and with 19 rounds in an stock mag, I think it would have been a great choice too. Reminds me of a 1911 with alot of babies in the frame.
Sig's are nice too. I joined in 1977-1999, so went through the 1911 and M9. 14 year expert. The M9 was a better shooting pistol but I'd attribute that to the quality of M9's over our WWII era 1911's.
Pistols don't win wars, but they've started a few
I already had a g19 gen 3 and g22 gen4... bought a g43x and g19x this year. I had no interest in the sig
You....pretty much bought the same gun
I too Agree. Good points, educational and interesting.
My m17 has been accurate and reliable but after 8500 rounds the slide finish is 80 percent gone the slide hanging up right before battery has not gone away.the barrel is still fine the slide rails are down to bare metal mid slide area small amount of gauling. also the locking system for chassis to frame very loose had to replace striker once. it is still pretty accurate.
People are so quick to call someone a “fan boy” just for speaking facts, shits ridiculous
The modular part is overrated Chris you are most right there are three echelons of Maint even on M16 rifles you were not allowed to remove the heat shields of an M16A2 handguards that was back in the day the modularity will be assigned to you per the Company's request for that specific person who requires a different configuration IE Specialized units. As for SNCO, Officers and basic military personnel who are required to carry a sidearm it will be the full size model. I retired as a Govt Civilian weapons Handler to the Military and can tell you no basic ground pounder is going to build his lego sidearm in any arms rooms hell it was a PITA to get a Military Armorer to change out the mag release from right side shooter to left side shooter they wound up asking me if I could do it since I was a Lockheed Martin Contractor on the A76 program as a Lead Weapons Handler I didn't mind doing it or anything else for the soldiers. I then went Govt in house as a weapons Handler when the contract died from lack of funds and retired eventually.
Modularity reminds me of what my friends said playing HS football. “Your head molds to fit the helmet they give you”
Thank you for unbelievable vedio and interlect!!!!
Even the army 75th rangers use the g19. I don’t know why the the army just didn’t take on the standard g19.
Yet other Special Forces Units have chosen to carry Sigs and 1911's.......
Lee Davis who?
The Navy Seals use the MK27(G19) and I heard they ain’t changing any time soon.
@@robosdrumworld No they just went to that about 2 yrs ago
@@jc-vc7xq the Navy Seals went to the Sig 320 M17?
I think you’re forgetting the biggest factor, the army goes with the cheapest option especially in recent years they’re all about initial cost frugal leadership is one of the downfalls of the army
Very few troops will carry the sidearm. So the impact is not as great as you think.
What I do know is that both are great pistols I bought the G45 because it was new and in stock but at the same time I wouldn't mind owning the sig p320 carry I rented it put 50 rounds through it and like it just as much as the 19x I also did a test fire of the FN 509 tactical which is also a great pistol as well as the Smith and Wesson m&p full size 2.0 fde
Spot on ! Well done 👍
Sig was underbid by Beretta back then, now they underbid Glock
The 226 is a horrible firearm bud
@@joncampo1627 I ain’t a Sig owner or a fan but the 226 has never be horrible firearm
@@joncampo1627 lol if the 226 is horrible, being one of the finest quality stock handguns, what's Glick then? Glick, the african AK of the pistol world lol
Sigs got everyone fooled. Their pistols probably worth all of $100 they wholesale em for 3x that and retail is 5x that. Theyre laughing to the bank
can you detal the problems noted and the ammo problems?
I’m in the M9A3 camp myself, but I fail to see how the P320 is better than an equally modular APX... and don’t even get me started on the VP9.
Have we forgotten that for decades Glock would be awarded Police Contracts based solely on Glock always offering Low Ball pricing ?
The guns have been tested by several law enforcement and military’s throughout the world. Many LE agencies lack the experienced personnel to run a weapons replacement program. They use other agencies testing to choose weapons. They do not adopt on price alone, the weapon has to meet their requirements before they can even look at price.
@@SmallArmsSolutions
I recently retired from a State Law Enforcement Agency as a Master Sergeant after 32 years.
25 of those years as a Firearms Instructor. The last 12 as Head Instructor.
I not only trained our personnel, but also assisted other Agencies with their BLE and In Service Officers.
So I got to know A LOT of Police Firearms Instructors.
Pretty much, all agreed that the #1 denominator with choice of Agency Firearms was price. Glock Representatives would always have a personal meet with in our case, State Representatives, Senators and their Bean Counters. Same with Mayors, Commissioners, and City Managers with the Local LEO's.
It is what it is...
Do a regular troops even carry a pistol, or are they only for desk duty?
For infantry it is sgts and above. Special forces have their own procurement.
Crew served weapons operators carry pistols also.
Every single tank crewmember in the entire Army has a pistol.
I was one of the people that bought a P320 because its the standard service sidearm.
However, I bought it used because I wasn't going to pay full price for a defective gun, I just wanted it for the chassis and as a reference piece.
I now have an M9A1 and I still have a Glock I've had for years. I did put the P320 into a Flux Raider chassis and I really liked it, but ultimately got rid of both of them because I'd rather have a handgun i trust instead of a subgun i don't.
What was the unit cost on each hand gun?
In all honesty, Glock's submission uses a G17 sized grip, which is fairly substantial, and could be considered too large for some hands, especially females. I'd bet Sig's smaller grip and much lower price sealed the deal.
100% This is the reason. The military has taken a SJW stance, they want to include females into the equation, and wanted a smaller grip for them, armorers have access to 3 different grip sizes for this very reason.
Israel is seeing now just how disastrous it is employing women in combat roles. Women should not be in those roles.
question is "who got very rich very quickly", If nothing makes sense, chase the money.
@Col. Douglas Mortimer keep an eye out for dodgy men with musical pocket watches ;)
Thanks for the video.
I love my 19x, but the unsung hero of this competition is the 5" m&p 9 2.0 that Smith and Wesson submitted for consideration. It's a very nice shooting pistol, reasonably accurate, and has great ergonomics. Out of all the glocks in my collection, this is the pistol I prefer to take to hell and back.
The S&W did not make it through the endurance test. No hero there. Only Glock and Sig passed.
@@SmallArmsSolutionsI cant find a source for this claim, can you provide a link to one?
I don't know about the army, but in the Marine Corps anyone with the rank of E-6 or above or any officer is required to have a pistol issued to them. If any of these people wanted a different size grip they can get it just by using their rank. And even experienced combat veterans wont even get near 20 thousand rounds through their side arm. The rifle is used much more often. This pistol might get near that number with like their second or third owner because no one is ever issued a brand new already implemented firearm and that's being generous.
The army brass doesn't follow their own rules? You don't say.
You could say their standards are so high, they’re doubled
And some of them POS brass have the balls to flaunt their own rule breaking by carrying their own sidearms and making political policies against us carrying sidearms
Just look at the adoption process of the M14 and M16.
I believe the US DOJ or DOD will see to it that either Styer will lose that case, or more likely it will somehow get thrown out of court, or if Styer does win in court, they will manage to avoid paying them on that debt. I don't think Sig, or the US Army will be actually paying up on that debt.
Facts man! Thanks
I'm guessing that sig wanted that contract so they could use it as a springboard to sell more on commercial market. When something is used my military it gets a lot of after market support and people buy just cause if it's good enough for them it's good enough for you. Even if they are just barely in the black on military sales they will see increases in civilian. My local pd started letting cops carry 320 after xm17 trails because it was choosen as the xm17. I think a lot of people will buy it cause it similar to military guns like gun manufacturers have seen with 1911 m9 m14 m16 m4 clonesceven if sig loses a lawsuit they will probably be fine
Eugene Stoner Glock has had issues too. Even the “FBI” (Gen5) Glocks had issues. Gen 2 Glock 19 had an accidental discharge recall.
@Eugene Stoner, not sure how you can say the glock is better when the Sig beat the glock in the scoring, and sig destroyed them on pricing. Glock is also a one trick pony, Sig can offer optics and suppressors, both made in house. You love Glock. I love FN, but I don't lie about this program, Sig had the better product, and won the submission
rockerdude8000 Sig needed the contract more than Glock did.
@@Willis2515, Sig was replacing Glock at a regular rate across the nation for law enforcement, they didn't need to contract.
I had the enjoyment of being one of the first to get to shoot the sig at my unit and it did not perform well. A lot of the soldiers are very disappointed in the pistol
I was issued an M16A2 with a broken gas tube roll pin. The armorer said "shut up boot" and flicked his hand at me, so I popped the top handguard off and twizzled the tube around a bit with my best "is it supposed to do THIS, idiot?"
The military at large knows nothing about weapons. There's a few knowledgeable, passionate people in every unit that keep everything running.
Plus I am wondering what did the FN handgun failed on when it was submitted
I like my 509 alot but they tend ti fail ti fire when wet big deal on this planet uno
I wonder what he thinks about highpoint firearms? I'm just curious to know.
Gregory K. First video in the Crime series!
Sidearms may be the only firearm issued for many Aircrewmembers of all branches in U.S. Armed forces《☆》
I bought a H&K VP-40, a Glock 19x and the SIG 320. The GLOCK became my daily carry, the H&k became one of my favorite go to range pistols and the SIG 320 has been relegated to the safe having no discernible advantages over the other two. All are inferior to most small carbines in a self-Defense situation. An AR-15 pistol made with 6 to eight inch barrel, one of those PDW rear ends that do away with the buffer and tube and has a real small collapsible stock would be superior to all for vehicle crewman, and other positions where a pistol is issued except for undercover work.
May I ask you what the army found wrong with the CZ p-07/09 and the FN 509? I can't find the documents you have shown in this video.
You won’t, they only informed the manufacturers on the results of their entry.
@@SmallArmsSolutions I see, thank you for the vidoe and your reply.
That CZ 07/09 is a nice pistol. Reminds me of an 1911.
This is going to be the M14 of pistols
Not really you need to remember that most military sidearms are glorified broaches and are only fired at ranges for annual training. The people who actually kick in doors usually carry their own sidearm. Also the Army is a bunch of cheap bastards if Glock low balled the Army they probably would have won. That's the main reason the m4 and m16 have stuck around for so long is because the Army hasn't been able to find a rifle cheap enough to justify the switch.
@@nemisous83 regular infantry most certainly perform cordon & search or "kicking in doors" and they have to carry what is issued.
@@northroad1 Regular infantry do not carry sidearms anyone that has ever been in the military would know that. Sidearms are issued to security forces, machine gun crews, and Staff/Officers.
Depends. Not me personally (because I'm a terrible driver), but my brother in law got use out of his because, as he said it, when you are stuck in your cab working convoy, your rifle is basically that thing that you clean sometimes.
The m92 is actually way more reliable than a 1911, plus holds many more rounds. Today, both are kinda long in the tooth.
Should stayed with Beretta or went with glock the Sig p320 are untested and unproven
Great video! Chris is speaking truth to power!
Old thread I know. Admittedly I'm a SIG fan. What I don't understand is why a total change. The Beretta has modernized. And, beyond that, today's 1911s, while maintaining all the attributes of a 1911, they've came a very long way from when the M9 was adopted.
Cheap parts. Easy to replace parts. Even in the field. Double stack. As far as "modular", I've personally never met anyone that didn't love the "feel" of the 1911. It's a natural fit by nature.
There was never a need to reinvent the wheel in this whole process.
Yes, 1911 would've had a higher cost. The advanced M9 would've had higher costs. But, steel over poly, which inherently gives a longer life span. Ease of use, ease of parts, ease of repair in the long run. Would've leveled the field. And that doesn't mention 1911 hybrids. Personally, I never saw the point of replacing the M9. Just buy new guns! What I was given was falling apart. Old, yes. Old school, yes. But the M9 was, and is a wonderful gun. It isn't a CZ 75, but it's a great sidearm. The Army would never adopt something like the 75, eastern bloc design.
How long until the kick backs get exposed?
I own a p320 with the factory upgraded trigger. Its a great shooting pistol....but...this is what bothers me, It doesnt have a firing pin block. I hesitate to carry it as my ccw because of this. I also read a few reports of it firing by itself..like in the holster not being touched. One cop got shot in the femur when her p320 discharged in the holster s. I really want to love it but cannot carry a pistol pointed at my manhood without a firing pin block...
Lake Country Dock Repair yes the P320 does have a firing pin block sir
@@SmallArmsSolutions I stand corrected, thank you. Here is my issue maybe you can help me shed some light. I saw a few reports were the p320 was discharging rounds without the trigger being mainpulated and not being dropped. These are recent, post upgrade I assume. watch.sobtactical.com/forums/main-board/36709-sig-320
Personally with a FPB i cant see how this is possible but it still makes me nervous to carry.
If it is going to hang on your hip as a secondary, then light, simple and reliable is all that should matter. But either the glock or the sig is still a winner for the troops.
But the dnd had better get the the next rifle/caliber right. Let hope. 🤞
Glock should make magazines in all steel. No polymer. They could get more rounds into the same length magazine if they did that. Just like Shield Arms and PSA did with their Glock 43x & 48 magazines. Getting rid of the polymer gets 50% more rounds into the same overall width & length magazine. It's essentially a G19 mag with the polymer removed.
Greetings from Lithuania! Our service pistol is G17 and it seems to be working fine for a while now!
Makes the old saying "remember your weapon was made by the lowest bidder" really ring true, sad to see and is a total magic show.
I would bet the top people at SIG were very close with procurement officers in the Army...
I put over 4000 rounds through my m17 and have never had a problem accurate as hell