The MYTH Surrounding Shaft FLEX
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- čas přidán 28. 12. 2022
- LISTEN IN!! This video could dispel a few myths which may influence your next club purchase!
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Brilliant video! Very informative
Another superb little piece in this series. Really interesting and informative. Thank you.
You’re welcome JC
I am learning so much here at Precision. Thanks for all the expert understanding.
An absolute pleasure and thanks for watching
After spending most of my golf career playing unfitted golf clubs I did tons of research on the new shafts about 12 years ago. Removable heads were just becoming available and out of my price range. I learned that torque was way more important than flex. I built my own set, built them long and heavy and set the lofts and lies so they were completely consistent. Set the swing weights all heavy. Even made my putter longer so I could practice longer with it. Most comfortable set I ever owned. Every club matched my distance predictions right out of the bag. There was no Trac Man except at Golfer's Warehouse. I knew exactly where they were going and how far. First time golf was ever easy.
Hi John.
Many thanks for your comments and becoming involved in the discussion. Fitting is not an exact science. That is why on occasion you have to think out of the box and work with a customer to achieve what feels right for client. Trackman data is not sufficient alone. See you next time. 👍🏻
Curious about the "heavy" swingweight. What swingwweight did you end up with?
@@francophillips2156 E0. It was a byproduct of shaft length. I am 6'-1" but have short arms. Because of girth in the abdomen, I hated playing upright lies. I always wanted Tom Watson lie angles and his plane but couldn't get that being about 5 inches taller. Set design is always about compromises in many different aspects.
I set out mostly to be able to work from my 7 iron loft, lie, swing weight, length, head weight, shaft weight, grip size, etc. to predict a driver that would reach about 300 yards overall. Then I just filled in the yardage gaps till I had a set. I knew my game very well. I carried 5 clubs that modern makers called wedges. I carried 6 thru 9 irons. Used a hybrid, a 4 wood and a 2 wood (nominally) to fill the gaps.
@@francophillips2156 I was testing both shafts at D2 swingweight. My own gamer Driver swings at D3.5 but the shaft weight is a Graphite Desgn XC-6 which is heavier at 65g as opposed to the 53g weight of the two shafts I tested with in the video.
You guys do a fantastic job of fitting going way beyond and deeper than the standard quick clicks we see in TV ads for other commercial fitting and club sales organizations (no names). It seems from your concluding remarks that you are almost saying an average golfer with a swing speed nowhere near that of most tour pros or even scratch ams might actually find that an X flex shaft would work well for him or her depending on many other factors you mention, while a strong swinger might find he or she works well with an A flex shaft depending on those other factors. Being willing to take that as a starting point means you have to take more time and try more combinations than most fittings and fitters are willing and able to do. That really builds confidence in your system. I don't live anywhere near you, but for sure if I am ever asked about recommending a fitter by someone in the UK, your name would be at the top.
Hi John. We really appreciate it.
Great video guys really interesting stuff again....my father has just been down to you for a full fitting and he was really impressed with the service and knowledge, his clubs arrived yesterday from yourselves 👍. Im not very clued up on the technology side of things (I've never had a club fitting) but have always liked a club to feel heavy in the head and preferably not stable I like to manipulate the clubhead....i tend to ignore shaft flex rating and play a club through my feel rather than what the shaft sticker says. I I can't wait to get booked in with you in 2023 at some point for a fitting to see how far out my own clubs are 👍
Hi. Many thanks for following and for getting involved in the comments. So pleased your dad liked the experience. We look forward to seeing you sometime in 2023.
Useful video. I’ve always reacted to weight and bend profile. Firm butt end some give in the middle and a stable tip section always seemed to work best. My view the shaft is effectively a timing device and varies player to player subject to their tempo and transition etc.
Hi Sean. Thanks for your comments. Yes you’re absolutely right. Swingweight then calibrates the quality of that strike.
Only 98 to 100mph ss... Tried all fittings and x stiff always gives me by far best numbers, strange tbf
Was fitted last week for new clubs. Though I don’t have a lot of swing speed I wasn’t particularly worried about gaining distance but needed to find a way to maintain my current distances (don’t get a lot of distance so can’t afford to lose any!!) but with less effort and ideally with clubs that felt lighter and would also help increase my launch and spin. Went through a few combinations but one in particular jumped straight out immediately both visually and in terms of data giving me everything I asked for and also seems to have enabled me to get more distance too which is a bonus! Was nowhere near my preconceptions of what I thought would be the likely club set up.
Really showed the value of going through the process at the very least.
It helps tremendously if customers go into a fitting with an open mind, and without any preconceived ideas as to what they think they need. Sounds like you’re in a great place moving into the New Year. If we can be of any help, please don’t hesitate to drop us a line.
@@Precision_Golf You can be sure that will happen at some point! Keep up the great work and best wishes for 2023!
I think flex is there to pander to the male ego. Having been fitted at precision twice, neither the fitter nor I ever discussed flex. He handed me a club with a shaft in it, I hit a few balls with it and we discussed how it felt and the results. First time I knew what flex the shafts were was on the invoice. As a consequence I have stiff shafts in the woods, regular flex in the irons, and no idea in the wedges (should be almost time for a new fit).
With graphite shafts especially, even if you are not getting fit and just buying stock, flex is a dangerous thing to consider. As the video states, different shafts even with the same flex may have very different bend profiles.
Thanks for your input Justin. Yes you’re correct. Flex is really a byproduct of shaft weight.
Very interesting 👌 👍
Really interesting and informative video👍🏾👏🏾
Do you guys stock Srixon equipment for club fitting as i am thinking of coming down from Sheffield to see you guys for a club fitting when the new irons and woods come out next year.
Hi there - yes we do indeed stock Srixon golf equipment. We look forward to seeing you in the new year!
Just found your channel. Great and very thought provoking content, a question if I may? Any ideas on why I can slice a 65g stiff shaft and pull a 70g stiff shaft in my driver? I am an average single digit handicap golfer and very good with my irons which again are stiff recoil dart 75 shafts. Driver is causing me trouble every time I play
Relative to your irons shafts the 70g driver shaft is heavy so probably getting behind you and flipping through impact. The 65g may well depend on its balance point as to why it is slicing but it could be worth testing a slightly lighter shaft still, maybe 55g as that in theory would match your iron shaft weight better.
I added more weight to my driver head for consistency. It feels a bit heavy with the waggle test but when I'm on course and the adrenaline kicks in, it's perfect. Lol.
So good to hear!! Congrats 🥳
I swing my 6 at 98 and driver at 118 on avg, I played the stock elevate 95 in my apex pros for a whole season. Truth be told, I love the R flex. Great but high spin. I see a problem with my 4 and 5. Almost unusable when I go after it. Balloons, 4 i will spin at 5200 and fall at 220. Which sounds good until you see my gaping at the top end. I love the feel of a soft tip in my driver. I want to mess around with weights. I would love to find a good middle ground
We would love to help you with your game Ken and very confident we can find optimal performance for you.
This is exactly what happens with my 6, 5, and 4 iron (elevate 95 R shafts in Mavriks). My gapping is too close at the top. I swing my driver at 115 mph. Maybe a fitting would help.
Simon has exquisite control over his swing speed, matching up the speed for these two shafts. I'm pretty sure his skill contributes to making both of these shafts produce almost identical results except for the slight increase in spin. It would be interesting to see how their performance would compare in the hands of a much less coordinated and skilled player, say a 17 handicapper, who could not fine tune his biomechanics to control the swing as well as Simon.
Very kind John. It was very much a case in this video of having to make myself swing through the feel differences to eliminate everything but the shaft flex as much as possible. In the real world the player will react to the feel of the shaft and its flex and commit more with the shaft that responds in a way that gives them confidence
Watched a video with Rocco Mediate sayin he uses ventus trx black shaft so he gets more spin to draw ball and not go high right on him. He says need stiff to draw. wondered what your thoughts were on this.
The flex of the shaft will not stop him being able to turn the face over and control the face, however he may “feel” like the face bows opens on him with a softer playing shaft. The firmer feel and flex may give him the confidence that the head is in line with his hands and the confidence to rotate the face through the ball, resulting in a more consistent shot shape.
The actual difference in how much the shaft is bending, especially with a low loading swing like Rocco’s, is very, very small so I can only see this being the way he reacts to a softer feeling shaft versus a firmer feeling shaft rather than physically a softer shaft hanging the face open on him.
Less “kick” with a shaft in principle should reduce spin as the head is not deflecting as much and therefore the dynamic loft reduces slightly, however if he is seeing higher spin numbers from a stiffer shaft then this will mean a drawn shot is less likely to lose too much spin as tree face closes down and therefore it will stay in the air slightly better for him making the shot more controllable.
Have a question for you: If you can narrow shafts down to the right WEIGHT, does it then purely become a feel preference? An example would be all dynamic gold shafts all weight about the same, so theoretically you could play any of them?
Hi James.
There are a few grams between R300 and X100 and obviously they are very different bend profiles. Suitability of shafts is mainly down to how somebody loads the shaft and the preferences on flight and feel. Short loading cannot be determined by swingspeed along. Two golfers with identical club speeds may require to wholly different shaft weights and profiles. Thanks for watching.
Great Video!
All being equal does the shaft flex not speed up or slow down the amount of lead deflection? The more lead deflection at impact can potentially increase AoA, lower the strike and move the path more to the left.
Depending on were the mass is on a Driver does the toe not rotate at higher speeds again having an effect on club face position?
Shaft droop will also have a role to play again depending on how high the anchor is through impact from face plane tilt(lie angle)and strike point. Justin Thomas & Lexi Thomas being two players that create such a move at impact.
Can a shaft effect the vsp potentially influencing lie angle and in turn starting point?
Surely the true role a golf shaft has has been documented from a company with the use of a robotic arm from a neutral delivery position? Which in turn can then be applied to different delivery’s etc.
Love the content and i really hope the channel starts to receive the reviews it deserves 👍
With the difference in the amount of flex in the shaft between a single flex range (R flex to S or S flex to X flex etc) only being 3% - 5% of the total flex of the shaft it is very minimal indeed unless you were to make a 3 or 4 flex range change in flex which is why the Autoflex shaft requires a lower spin head than a more conventional flex shaft to counter the extra launch and spin produced, however this is a very exaggerated change in flex versus a conventional flex range.
Again the extra toe rotation due to flex is incredibly minimal, although it does exist, however again you have to make a large change in flex to see any tangible difference in flight and shot shape but to do this with a relevant shaft weight for most players is virtually impossible.
With the lack of loft on a Driver the effect of lie on start line and gear effect on shot shape is incredibly minimal, although it does exist but is so minimal that the influence is a very long way down the priority list when looking at what produces the best overall performance of a club.
As you say all shaft companies use a robot to test for repeatability and the ability to dial in strike point and how that affects the shafts performance through impact from a stability and twisting point of view and 99.9% of golfers will deliver a different pattern through the ball and therefore the theory of what a shaft does and the reality when an individual player swings it can be quite different. This is why the only way to know exactly how a player and a shaft perform together is a dynamic test.
Very glad you are enjoying the content and thank you for the interaction!
@@Precision_Golf Thank you for your reply 👍. You mentioned gear effect with a driver is minimal due to the lack of loft?
@@ThunderMk2 The gearing due to the loft is very low (unlike with a wedge at 50 degrees where the effect is much higher). There is plenty of gear effect on off-centre strikes but the effect of the loft alone on start line based on a lie angle being upright or flat due to swing plane and handle position is very small. The difference the lie makes is based on whether the lie angle of how the shaft inserts into the head sits upright or flat and that effects the way the head and shaft interact (more upright bringing the CG closer to the shaft and therefore making it easier to square up)
Can you do a test on driver shafts with weights ? Like going from 65gram to 45gram. Does it increase speed and does the spin etc suffer from it
Ive always wondered
Hi Aksel. There is always a critical point between having enough weight to keep directional consistency and flight optimised and maximising club speed so it really is a case of finding a happy medium of the two
Certainly one we can film!
@@Precision_Golf That would be much appreciatet !
I wish you would slow down and be more clear on CPM on both shafts
I am a retired PGA pro, 72 and disabled. After 55 years fighting a slice, I can now draw the ball but only with a senior shaft, offset driver. Because of my disabilities, I have to release arms and hands before impact so the club is "free-wheeling". My understanding is that the head flexes forward as its centre of gravity lines up with the grip, closing the face and adding loft enabling me to hit a high draw with an 11 degree driver. Another driver, 12 deg, regular, flies lower with fade. Even if I flick it, it is difficult to produce draw. My 3 wood (regular) goes lower than my driver and fades. Is this because my "free-wheeling" method is different from, for example, your more modern forceful action through the ball? I am unable to travel to a good test centre to test my theory.
Hi. I suspect the answer to all your questions is shaft weight and swingweight. All can be adapted to meet your requirements. We have a tremendous amount of experience dealing with double and single leg amputees who are so sensitive to shaft weight and before coming to see us have to manipulate ball flight with their hands. This can be made tremendously easier with correctly set up and built equipment.
@@Precision_Golf thanks, I would love to come for help, unfortunately I am unable to travel far. I cannot afford to spend much on this but I will experiment a bit with s/h drivers before I have to give up golf altogether. Can you just confirm that, with a more flexible shaft, the face will usually be more closed and lofted at impact. This was not obvious in your demonstration but I feel it should apply to my weaker swing. Many thanks.
@@oldprogolf7292 With a slower swing a softer shaft will promote slightly higher launch and spin and will feel easier to close the face - it will close marginally more than a firmer shaft but only very slightly but will feel much easier to get response from
@@Precision_Golf Thanks. If my health improves I will come and see you.
I was always told to use the most flexible shaft I could control. Flex = power.
Hopefully our video has helped you better understand 😊. Happy New Year!
How does flex stiffness help or hurt on miss hits like off the toe?
If you tend to rotate the face with your swing then stiffed will in principle reduce a bit if shaft twist on off centre hits and therefore reduce the hook gearing on a tie strike a little
I thought 5.0 was an A flex? What does the A stand for? Enjoyed the video!
A stands for “Amateur” flex and in the Project X range of wood shafts is one below Regular
@@Precision_Golf Thanks!
Shaft weight is probably as important as shaft flex, maybe more important, being that the shaft is really a time devise. Understanding that there is no standard for what qualifies as "stiff or regular". Like for instant, a Ventus Red stiff vs Ventus Black stiff are far different from each other in how stiff they play.
Absolutely
Would be interesting to hear you go further into shaft characteristics, such as the effect of higher and lower torque. Are there shafts with the same weight but that have sharply different torques? Also what about the four digit Miyazaki International Flex Code ratings that measure flex in 9 levels from Senior to tour XX stiff and divide the shaft into 10 inch sections? As opposed to saying the overall flex of a shaft is stiff or senior, do differences in sections, especially the tip, have a greater influence on trajectory and control?
Bend profile and zonal stiffness variables only have a relatively small effect on flight when isolated - Mitsubishi put a chart on their website when comparing the original Kai’Li, I’Lima and A’Hina when tested on a robot and too to bottom there was 0.3 degree difference in launch and roughly 300-400rpm difference in spin (they subsequently removed this chart shortly after posting it as it made people question what difference it actually made).
Torque ratings vary brand to brand in how they are measured so one brands rating vs another brands rating cannot be directly compared unless independently tested to normalise the scale. Torque will slightly affect spin but mainly “feel”. Technically a low torque shaft should reduce spin slightly. To have very different torque ratings at the same weight the shafts would be so differently designed for bend profile that it would not be a fair comparison to use torque as a measure for performance difference alone.
I mean there is no true standard for flex across the industry. Stiff for one shaft is really only relative to the same model of shaft at the same weight profile. I can play a 75 gram project x black x stiff and a project x pvd smoke green in a 60 gram tx and the feel are almost the same.
We completely agree Matt. That’s why Brunswick developed the FM frequency scale. However that only relates to butt stiffness and zone stiffness can be very different. Thanks for getting involved, see you next time 👍🏻
@@Precision_Golf I really wish more companies showed their breakdowns like how Fuji does, Butt/Mid/Tip. All the exact numbers breakdown of torque and stuff is nice but it's really pointless unless you understand how shafts work which probably 95% of golfers don't.
We are very lucky to have access to the worlds most comprehensive independently tested shaft database where you can compare EI profiles, stiffness, zone frequency, weight, torque, load profiles of pretty much every shaft on the market, all carried out on the same machine to give an apples to apples comparison. Check out s3fitting.com. However, you are correct, what people think they need and what they actually need can be very different. Normally self-prescribing too heavy and too stiff, we’ve all done it!
Two points worth mentioning.1 st you never test with a grip on, will give a false reading every time 2nd use a static weight not a driver head. All the driver heads are different weights hence when you fit for a driver you start with a “dry” shaft ie its uncut. Your ideas at best are flawed😮
Hi Dave. We appreciate your comment and you are right to bring this up! We measure grip-on frequency with constant 100psi pressure so regardless of grip type the clamp force is consistent and repeatable. Our frequency software also calculates FM frequency to make an allowance
for grip on vs grip off. We have tested this thoroughly in the workshop and confirmed the results are consistent.
Secondly, we have weighted our demo heads so they are all consistent in weight, or light enough to allow us to add weight to match all other heads being tested. This allows us to be very fair and accurate in all our fittings and equipment or tech videos.
Lastly all our demo shafts are tipped identically and cut to the same playing length for the exact same reasons.
Happy to answer any further questions you might have but we’re pretty confident our testing is on point.
You’re omitting the big difference in “shaft flex”. We cannot accurately compare shaft flex w/o also comparing EI curves. I could swing for a example a Ventus TR Blue 5R vs a Air Speeder 5S. The AirSpeeder would likely test a bit stiffer CPM yet would be far less consistent and much higher spin. The reason being the EI of the Ventus is MUCH stiffer in tip resulting in greater stability and less shaft droop at impact. I’m betting my misses would be within 6-8mm of center. The “stiffer” AirSpeeder would have much larger misses from center, mostly high toe resulting in high spin rate draws starting up right and curving left of centerline.
Until you can compare like EI shafts, such as a Ventus TR in 6R & 6X, you cannot truly and accurately isolate the differences in shaft flex upon club performance.
The test we were doing was to demonstrate that a very soft or stiff flex does not turn a straight shot with a square delivery line and face at impact into a hook or slice and that it is not the major factor in dictating what shaft works for you. Many players still believe this to be the case and focus on the flex denomination on the shaft to dictate whether it will help them with direction and this was to show that is is not true. Absolutely there are several other elements that go into dialling in the very best option for someone of which bend profile is an important part.
The reality of how the bend profile alone affects flight is also quite limited - at extreme shaft loads you can see a greater difference but all else being equal a tip soft shaft versus a tip stiff shaft will only alter launch and spin by a very small amount - this is why Mitsubishi removed the data comparison from their website between the Red, Blue and White Board Diamana models several years back as it only showed a 300-400 rpm variable in spin and under a degree in launch from top to bottom when tested with a robot.
EI profiles will affect the zonal frequency of the shaft and how consistently the shaft loads relative to the players action and will promote more or less bending at certain points of the shaft but this will mainly affect spin, a small effect on launch angle and will impact on the consistency of those parameters. It can help dial in strike, as you say, but in the example you give it would be the gear effect of the strike on the high-toe part of the face that would create the right-to-left shot shape, not the shaft turning the face over.
We appreciate your interest in the videos and your comments and we will look at doing a comparison on EI profile in the future.
@@Precision_Golf Correct, the high toe results in high spin draw/hook due to the bulge & roll of face, not necessarily the face squareness.
Interested in seeing a flex comparison between similar EI shafts. I’d also throw in a comp of masses, especially if you did balanced swingweights.
By that I mean, how do for example a Ventus Blue TR 5X vs 7X compare when either the 5X is counterbalance weighted or 7X is hosel weighted to obtain matching swingweights.
Thank you Michael, we look forward to sharing more content with you in the future.
Weight is more important than flex
Couldn’t agree more Jay
It’s all to complicated grip it and hit it
Not for us!
I never understand how many people will say too much flex goes left and too stiff goes right like he says at the beginning, everytime I get too much flex (and everytime everyone else I know does) I'm coming into the ball wide open with a slap at the ball there creating a big slice.
Correct, although the softer flex will not hang the face wide open either. More flex means more dynamic loft and so a little more launch and spin and of course a softer feel.
i some how see misleading datas,all manufacturers are business minded,promotion of the game is more important than players getting frustrated and throwing clubs
All the data they give is relevant to their models and materials but there are no industry standardised measurements for shafts - they all use their own systems and machines to produce the stiffness, torque and ei profiles so it is impossible for the consumer to objectively compare anything other than weight!