When Lasers aren’t fast enough: Form 3+ Speed and Quality Benchmarks!
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- čas přidán 27. 02. 2022
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Can an LCD resin printer keep up with one that uses Lasers? Well, it might actually be the other way around!
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it boggles my mind how print time estimates still arent 100% accurate since all the movement times/exposure time variables are known factors
While the print times could be more accurate, They will never be 100% on the Form 3. Besides the fact that heatup is not included in the calculation, the Z axis has a force sensor and pulls the part off the tank until it detaches, it doesn't just always "lift up by [amount] of millimeters". So how much it needs to peel is determined in real time by the sensors in the machine, which is hard to predict, ergo PreForm won't ever be as arccurate as an FDM printer for example.
Could still be tons better though
I miss my resin printer, but don't miss the mess. Might grab another one someday, and have been considering LCD this time. So thanks for this.
Dlp is the way
Awesome insights! Looking forward to the next video.
With new flood of affordable DLP printers are on the way I really want to see you compare them to this printer and SL1S too.
Agreed. DLP based printer would have been a more apt comparison
Having a Form2 and an Photon Mono, I find the engineering grade materials from FormLabs to be much more durable then the engineering grade resins I have tried for MSLA, granted the price point is so much higher for Form Resins, but the durable resins are actually quite durable, we use them in our plating and coating shops. Granted I'm always on the look out for cheaper MSLA resins currently loving the Phrozen Onyx Pro 410, but it's still not as durable as the normal Grey resin from form labs. Then getting up into the higher level durable resins and you really are getting parts that behave similar if not better then injection molded parts
Have you tried BASF Ultracur3D resins with your MSLA printer?
I also own a Form2, but I haven't been that impressed with their Tough and Durable resins, I find them too soft. For example I have printed wall supports for tools in Tough, which were fine at first, but they started to bend more and more as months went by under constant but very reasonable load (like a medium-size screwdriver). And at the same time, they are also a bit brittle, they don't always survive a table-height fall. They also deform very quickly as soon as you heat them a little (especially the Durable). All in all, IMO they don't really hold the comparison with any kind of ABS or PC plastic for instance. The Grey Pro is pretty good though, but I don't print directly technical parts with it, I use it to print mold masters and then mold the same geometry in PU resin, which is way better structurally.
Tired of the high price of Formlabs consumables and low durability of their resin vats, I just ordered a Creality Halot Sky with a bunch of BASF resins. They are pretty pricey compared to other resins in this category, but still half the price of Formlabs' ones. FEP films are also 10 times cheaper than Form2's vats, and I suspect that they will last longer because they are not subjected to a highly-concentrated laser. Time will tell.
@@HerrHeisenheim Thank you for the info on the BASF resins. I had come across them when a I was shopping for a photocentric printer but hadn't seen them from other distributors, I'm in Canada, so resin selection can be limited at times. We print parts that are used for coating application so we are spinning them up to 24K rpm and then hitting them with a high pressure stream of epoxy. I have also had good luck with the ApplyLab Works resins for laser. I believe it's the higher energy density of the laser spot that allows these resins to have higher functional properties, as the MSLA UV energy is distributed across the entire print surface. The challenging part is always identifying the specific end user use case and selecting the proper resin for it.
Have you had a chance to try our Blu Nlyon-Like and Tenacious? They have been used by many users for engineering projects for fixtures to gears. A good postcuring routine is also important to get most out of MSLA engineering resin
Great video comparing the ups and downs with this machine! Cannot wait for the 3rd one to come out! We had a form 2 for a while and have been eyeing the form 3, but with an army of MSLA now, I am not sure that jump will happen soon! Great to see side-by-side comparisons!
The camera quality in this video is fantastic.
Awesome video! plz keep them coming!! Great job, Thomas👍👍👍
I don’t even like resin in general, but I enjoyed this video, love how you produce, also the studio lighting 👍💪🇺🇦
Slava Ukraini
🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
Just wondering why you don’t like resin?
why do u like resin?
Nazis! Nazis everywhere!
The Video i was hoping for from the best 3d printing related CZcamsr. Nice!
Great use of background lighting!
I'm guessing the smoother surface (than MLSA) makes it better suited for food-safe prints.
"10/3rds of a thou" -- hah, is that Tom sneakily trolling the freedom units? :)
I'm using the Formlabs machines since more than 3 years. I was so often in contact with the development team to improve the time calculation and I gave them already a formula to make the time calculation for the Form 2 more accurate. But still it is as you explained :(
I own a form 2 for over three years now. Been trucking ever since. I'm hyped on part three, my thinking is: the biggest benefit is the large variety of materials, and the dialed in parameters for them. Ofc those aren't cheap...
Has your machine ever had optical issues? I had 2 Form 2’s and they both have optical issues after a few months.
I very much appreciate the detailed look on the software side of things and the comparison to the more hobbyist range machine. The side by side comparison with the 2 figures shows the differences really well. It is not just you, the formlabs software is very slow and there's no recommended orientation. You just have to go based on your experience, and in many cases the model works completely different with a various orientations.
Thomas I wholeheartedly agree with you about the software. It really feels like a complete package. Great online tools (especially once you have more than one Formlabs printer, more materials and consumables). One of the best slicers out there, the settings you need are easily understandable, and no need to fiddle with a lot of obscure advanced time per layer calibration and the like.
But yeah it does run slow with bigger more intricate parts.
Formlabs printers are expensive, when compared to hobbyist MSLA machines, but I personally think it's kind of like comparing apples and oranges. They are pro-sumer printers, a fine middle ground between the cheaper hobbyist printers and the super expensive (and very closed source) giant corporate printers that us mere mortals don't have access to.
I wonder if you will make a video on how the little chip hack to spoof a Formlabs cartridge work? With the hack you can use all the great features of closed mode like remote start, auto-fill, level sensing and auto setting curetime, but still use cheaper third party resins.
The Form 2's didn't last long at the local makerspace because of the chipped vats and cartridges. The pins would get damaged from mishandling and resin would coat the contacts and it wouldn't read. You could use them in "open mode" but we just got elagoo mars instead and even replacing the $50 LCDs and FEP every month from members breaking them was still cheaper than one liter of resin from formlabs. This machine is definitely geared towards the more money than sense business customers.
I wonder if MSLA could be combined with the localized tensioning of the FEP bed? Use a video of each layer to correspond to the localized tensioned area to remove the need for such drastic retractions and peel cycles.
Thanks.
I'm curious how this compares against the Prusa and 'standard' resin printers with more geometric prints with large rapid changes in surface area. On, for example Mars, the peeling force isn't enough to peel the part away from the FEP with these increases. I wonder how much difference the alternative mechanisms makes.
hi Thomas, i need to know if you need to modify the dimension in the software or straight out of the box the machine give you accurate dimension of the part?
That would be a fast great test.
I was interested in the Form 3 but I saw the Formlabs 2 & 3 in their exhibition booth and actually was shocked how bad their prints were in comparison to cheap MSLA. So I avoided their printers.
Exactly, you can tell someone is getting paid these machines are way overpriced and unreliable.
100% agree, the prints are extremely disappointing. I regret buying one. Also agree they are extremely buggy and unreliable.
What MSLA do you recommend?
When working with the Form 2, I would often orient the parts, and some times even plan the supports, my self. Preform was never very intelligent of a software.
I also found that locating and orienting the parts closer to and towards the front of the build tray would save time.
Really? I've found it to be quite the opposite.
Part support is complicated, and can always be better. But print speed and object location are always in contention with how Preform is attempting to reduce tank wear over time.
It's kina like how if you use a mouse on a specific spot on your desk, that specific spot will be worn down much faster than the rest of the desk.
That being said, the print estimates could definitely be improved.
Request Formlabs' SLS printer next ...
"so I tried with a less detailed one" _shows a cube_
Why can't there be a hybrid solution with an LCD strip to do a line at a time while still doing the screen peeling?
Hey Tom, great video, as always!
Where did you find these connectors at 8:34? I looked after them for a while but only found male ones....
That’s normal for power adapters.
@@lazyman1011 yeah, but i needed a connector like shown and didnt found one
Yeah, these were pretty tricky to track down! They're called "XT60E-F" and mine are labeled "KingApe". Found them on ebay. You can tell they're just overmoulded regular XT-60 connectors, but they work really well.
@@ShasOAunLa If it’s for private use just buy a regular XT and print the stuff around, there are some nice STL available for free.
For 24/7 manufacturing as a service Photocentric Magna is a better choice imo.
I think the resolution (85 micron) was better ,i have a photon mono x , at 50 microns , prints are really good
No mentioning what resin you used from formlabs? Details varies with the resin type. Looks like you used their tough1500? Not the most detailed resin they have if that's your thing to compare.
I know you adore Prusa and that's fine. One thing I'd like to point out, is unlike the millions of sub-$900 SLA printers out there, you won't have to deal with FEP screens of iffy quality or replacing the LCD screens every few hundred prints. I don't own a FormLabs machine but I have always admired their complete system as a package for success. Slicer, materials, etc. Sort of like Ultimaker does for FDM.
Yes, but instead of replacing the FEP screen on a cheaper printer, you can also just buy a whole new printer for the price of a new Formlabs Resintank.
So the Laser one is basically working like an FDM printer but using a UV laser and resin. where as a Resin printer does THE ENTIRE LAYER in one shot, so even when doing multiple objects its the same time to print. I really don't see the benefit of using a laser printer other then maybe being cheaper to buy and with a large build volume like an FDM printer. However with the advent of the large build plates of the Neptune Jupiter and the Anycubic version, they now rival the build volumes of the Ender 3. With the added benefit of being higher resolution and the nature of Resin printing that does the whole layer in a single shot.
What is your favorite FDM printer?
A type of printer that cures giant prints made from bacteria grown on the surface of water, that takes 3 weeks to complete yet cheap as water.
Mirrors take time to move the LASER beam about
Very curious to see who this is for. Honestly, this just highlights how great the SL1S is for me. Can't wait get out of my apartment so I can pick an SL1S up.
We use Formlabs at work, many engineers use it occasionally, who aren't very good or interested in the printing, they just want their part. If we would have each user able to set different parameters, empty and fill a vat with resin I don't think the printer would last for long. Formlabs is like Apple for printers, questionable value, locked eco system but reliable and hard to mess up. Those colleagues who are interested in printing own their own MSLA machines.
@@bagibadoo439 you know, that really makes sense. It's not necessarily the fastest or the most flexible, but it's a tightly knit ecosystem.
At 9:20 the comparison of the 2 parts, the Formlabs part is over exposed compared to the SL1S part. The fingers and small details in the Formlabs part are fatter/thicker than the SL1S part. Also look at the rivets or studs on here chest plate. You can see the difference in size and detail.
While the details are better on the SL1S part, this is not over exposed resin, as Thomas correctly stated this has to do with the laser spot being a good chunk larger than the individual pixels of the SL1S screen and that's why small details get softened
@@Chaosghoul I disagree. The dot would have to be very large to cause this mush difference in the print. Even if the dot size is larger, the software should be able to compensate, just as CNC software creating gcode can compensate for different tool diameters. If this absolutely has to do with the dot size, then the software is doing a poor job accounting for it.
@@watsonstudios A laser isn't an end mill. The spot size is typically defined as FWHM which basically means it will expose a little outside it's supposed size. Also, if they are not positioning the laser very accurately they might want to overexpose a little in order to prevent parts breaking.
@@watsonstudios there's no compensation to be done there, if the user asks to have a pin that's 50µm in diameter to be drawn while the spot size s 85µm, you can either flash the laser once or not at all
@@dutchr4zor True but the software can position the laser dot inside the outline/perimeter, not "on" the outline/perimeter to keep accuracy. Sure, if the dot is too big for a given detail, then it will overrun the outline and expand the detail in that area. FDM printers also compensate and run the bead "inside" the outer perimeter of the surface to keep outer dimensions accurate.
Laser is now old tech. With 8k printers, there is no quality difference, and SLA is INFINITLY faster.
Phrozen 8K trashes this printer for both speed and quality.
A stereophonic printer would be an interesting concept...
I thought the Form 3 would be the best printer for printing miniatures, but I have been frustrated with the lack of sharpness. It’s “good” to see that it isn’t only my unit that has this issue, though the pixelated look of many of the MSLA machines doesn’t look better. Are there any machines that have a better balance of detail and sharpness?
MSLA Pixels are only really visible on the earliest machines like the original Mars - on newer or better optimized printers like the Mars 3 or SL1S, they are only visible with a macro lens (as seen in the video) or a microscope, but not noticeable to the naked eye aside from the "shimmer on parts.
The pixels can he reduced greatly with anty aliasing and blur in softwares like lychee and chitubox.
These printers are terrible for models and miniatures. I found out the expensive way.
Not gonna lie, I got great pleasure out of you tripping up with those tongue twisters considering… like the entire German language which is like almost all toungue twisters, at least for a fat America who spent happy a year in Mainz once :)
So 6x the cost and 3x less the resolution? Yikes. Sounds like formlabs needs to up thier game!
What about geometry? Big prints tend to loose geometry, like u put themselfs and they dont exactly FIT, they bending, on lcd printers. For examle print something flat like rod square 100mmx10x10, and if its bended after taking off the platform.
@@JorgTheElder u mean it will not bend, cause there is no entire layer curing??
In fact, the cheapest printers are increasing in quality, right now "Form" will have to lower prices and give in to a super competitive market, they are already at 12k and what else will come?
not a resin printer question but on fdm why do you use the feed rate 9001 i cant find info on that anywhere, any specific reason behind it . thx...
From the jewelry side of the industry the software bundled with these higher end machines are rediculously inefficient and they all can learn alot by looking at the open source side but slicing a .2mm file in chitu even blows alot of the higher end software out of the water. Like etec and asiga but asigas build is signicantly faster
I have no idea why (besides the size) I should buy the one from Formlabs. The Prusa seems to be the better option in every regard. Can someone tell me?
Depending on your needs. How should someone decide it without info. It’s like, should I buy a winter or summer jacket.
@@lazyman1011 yeah but what would be my needs to prefere the Formlabs one?
@@allcrafter3747 for me it's that it literally works each and every time. I've had some dumb glitches where it doesn't calculate the amount of resin it has, but if you start with a fresh vat, enough resin. Press print -- it will work. The amount of failures that happen in MSLA world because of peel issues, if you need to have it work and not mess with the the literal mess of resin, then pay the price for the f3 + clean + cure setup. If you're just tinkering, then its not for you
@@kazolar Yes I know but isn't Prusa also providing top level user experience?
I regret buying a Formlabs printer. The user experience is great but the prints are terrible, the machine and consumables are grossly overpriced. The machines are also super buggy. There are constant firmware updates that routinely break the machine. They basically use their customers as beta testers.
🇺🇦 Nice background lighting 🇺🇦
How is this even different from the Form 3? It looks no different to me. That is crazy since that is 3 year old technology and the Form 3 actually brought something new to the table.
After talking to the FromLabs rep we deal with at work I can tell you it isn't much of a difference.
Wow turn off that full raft to get closer to the correct printtime! No need to print with full raft. You can set supports in any slicer you want and then bring it in into preform and just print.
At this point I’m thinking that they probably want to sponsor you for the next video to not make it
started watching this and then googled the price,, dont really feel like watching the rest of the video now lol
Our company uses them to make engineering prototypes, great to use!
Wow it being so much worse on details than even the SL1 is kinda underwhelming, i wonder how it would do against something like the Phrozen Mini 8K
I have a Phrozen 8K Mini, a Phorzen Sonic 4K (the fancy dental printer) and a Form3. The FormLabs prints are a joke compared to what either of the Phrozen machines will do. If you want crisp details on miniatures and models, the FormLabs machines are not for you. Seriously disappointing.
⭐🙂👍
Dentists. Repeatability, no need to replace the laser as often as LCD. Unlikely to care about the print speed for multiples.
Without watching the vid, a few highlights: LCDs will print faster overall, orders faster (depending on the model, hours can be gained) BUT the machine lifespan will be dramatically Lower than the Laser components. Depending on how much you print, it would not be unreasonable to be expecting to replace the LCD screen once a year with an RGB LCD or once every other year with a Mono.
Hopefully DLP will finally bridge the gap between Laser and LCD with the staying power of the former with much more approachable buy-in prices of the latter as they gain more consumer-grade roll-out (and in mid-size formats!). All three technologies have been around quite the while but at massively different price levels through the years. And with resin tech improving by the day, DLP resin won't be nearly as pricey as it has been in the past. 🤞
You dont have to replace the screen on the cheaper printers, just buy a new one. You can buy 10 cheaper printers instead of one Formlabs printer. Literally every pro of the Formlabs printer is undone by it’s price. There is no real reason to have a Formlabs printer.
I think the whole thing is approached from a bad angle. The Form 3+ printers are so expensive and sought after because of the large variety of resins that you can use on them, rigid 4k and 10k are so wonderful when it comes to manufacturing actual parts that will be used in machines or electronic components or the rubber-like resin. This is not a hobby machine, it is intended for manufacturing.
Lol upsidedown benchy with maximum supports and a brick of a raft. Why does it look like one of the things their slicer automatically "optimizes" for is maximizing how much resin it uses to increase cartridge turnover?
You should test real SLA 3D printers like DWS Sytems with 16um laser spot, not this cheap Formlabs ones.
Cheap...well ...
@@noway8233 5k EUR is quite cheap for entry-level (true) SLA. I've worked with ones that cost more than twenty times more. And they are still not the high end.
1kg of good quality resin made in the EU costs more than some of the cheaper mLCD printer-like products.
Good quality resin makes prints "pop", and Formlabs resins are not top quality. Just good. They've always had also quite a large shrinkage, but increased shrinkage is a problem of all 405nm systems and can be mitigated only in certain (and quite) expensive manners.
Smaller shrinkage= shorter wavelengths and/or ceramic infused resins
At the end Formlabs is not worth at all, even for a industrial applications, the actual resolutions, print speeds and cost of MSLA (4k, 6k, 8K) made the laser tech of Formlabs not worth the cost of the printer and his consumables, also super expensive.
I can have 10 Saturn working 24/7 instead 1 Formlabs...
The only that is nice is the actual finish of the print, you cannot see the "layer levels" or voxels in the print, but you have a bit less crispy details and this diagonal lines...
In my opinion the surface finish on any of the Form3 series machines isn't actually very good compared to other high end printers I'm using. I completely agree that there is no justification for the cost of the machine or it's consumables. I haven't found any advantage that makes it worth $3500 + consumables.
4.5k for a garbage printer. Noted.
GARBAGE! Coming from a guy that learned that lesson the expensive way.
Can't wait for the rocket 1 or the photon ultra, to completely blow formlabs out of the water
While I absolutely dont like my Form2 machine, it delivers very consistent parts... which I can not say for some MSLA printers I have.
I see that you used mainly standard grey resin. Formlabs has much better resins, that in my opinion give much better surface results - such as their 'tough' resin.
Some of the formlabs technical resins are nearly indestructible, where the MSLA resins I have worked with so far tend to be quiet brittle.
What dont you like about it?
@@nf794 there is pretty decent list... Apart from that is a very closed system. Everything is DRM'd with built in chips, labeled to make things more easy and customer friendly. In reality the locked nature defeats the technical level the machine has, at least for professionals that want to push the limits. You can pretty much only use Form resin, unless you buy a 'cracked' third party resin tank, that needs to be reprogrammed with a Windows only software (if you choose to use another resin). The same is for the resin VAT. Preform does not allow you to change printer names (it is factory assigned). Does not allow you to export in any other file format... Previous machines had an "open mode" never ones dont even have that anymore. And few more...
@@SarahKchannel You can't change the name of your printer because that's its serial name, like your phones IMEI number
Likely the resin they sent him.
@@Chaosghoul I know - but when did I have to interact with a MAC address or IMAI number - NEVER - but a animal name I have to see on every print window. Its a californian hypster thing I assume, but childish and dumb. Give it a normal serial, let the user use an 'alias' so it can be integrated into a workflow. Like "Printer LAB Left", "Printer LAB Center", etc....
For the price I expect it not to behave like a cool toy - but like a tool.
My experience with the Form3 and Form3L is that the prints are actually garbage.
Don't waste your time and money on any of the Form Labs SLA printers. The machine is grossly overpriced for what it delivers. The resins are absurdly overpriced. The print results are seriously disappointing. Compared to a Phrozen 8K the surface finish that comes off the Form3 or 3+ is embarrassing. These printers do a terrible job with small details and have all sorts of issues with resin pooling on the support side of the print and with any holes that aren't 100% vertical end up D shaped. Did I mention it's PAINFULLY slow? The slicer is also severely limited in terms of what you can actually do with it compared to something like Chitubox.
Buying a FormLabs printer was one of the worst decisions I've ever made. Initially I though the printer was broken the prints were so disappointing, they shipped me a replacement and it was just as bad! And be warned, their policy is that once you open the box it's yours. There are no returns or refunds.
Again, save your money. If you are an experienced 3D printer and used to high quality prints off of other machines you'll just be angry you're stuck with one of these laser powered clunkers.
Oh god, it sounds like the software is like Cricuts design space. No thanks.
You are conflating increased contrast with increased detail. The Form print was more detailed, it just lacked the contrast to show it. You should have done a black wash to bring out the detail.
I agree, the contrast comes from the tiny shadows made by the voxels.
As the unfortunate owner of a Form3 I can assure these machines are absolutely terrible at rendering details. The machine is a huge waste of money if you do miniatures.
First
Actually, you weren't 🤣