What If France Invaded Germany in 1935?
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- čas přidán 2. 11. 2023
- #possiblehistory #ph
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What if the treaties after WW1 were treated like another Congress of Vienna, where instead of punishing the aggressors they seeked to restore the balance of power in Europe.
Tbh I think german wouldn't hate french if they treated like french after the Napoleonic war.
Also what is the point of British joining ww1 at the cost of their long terms economic.
yeah do this one!
@@ClemTheWhimsicalthe issue is the french public was out for blood, france was politically unstable even with the damage they inflicted upon germany. Germans had massive political issues because of the myth they they could’ve won being in conflict with the reality of the harsh terms of versailles. Actually imagine for a moment if France had actually won and not had that revenge, it would be the whole betrayal myth but actually come true. France which unlike germany already controlled vast swathes of territory and with it industry, resources and manpower. It’s tempting to think Versailles could’ve gone well but ultimately what happened was probably the closest thing to a good treaty. Though italy was unnecessarily mistreated leading to the rise of fascism there and that would be the one thing I would’ve changed, different treaty though (Treaty of Saint-Germain En-Laye).
Impending third world war with the soviets?
“There is something we could do” - Napolean
Napo Lean?!!! WWWWWWWWW
Napoleon
Napoleon
Napolean
Þhąþ wøųłđ hąppəňđ įň øþhəř ųňįvəřßə
Echoing Dutchman doesn't exist, he can't hurt you.
Echoing Dutchman: 13:05
187 likes and no comments? crazy (first lol)
If France would have been willing to war with Germany over Versailles, and Italy does not support this, I imagine they might be willing to be involved in Spain to a greater extend too. Maybe not enough to change their fate, but I think the topic should have been explored more and not just brushed over.
I believe they didn't actively participate because the Spanish Republic would have merely been a Soviet Puppet had they won
I won't be so sure that Italy would oppose France in this context. Mussolini stand firm against annexation of Austria in 1934 sending some troops to Alps. Also there was the Stresa agreement in which UK, France and Italy guaranteed independence of Austria. Only harsh sanctions after war in Ethiopia moved Italy into Hitler hands.
@@alexzero3736 Yeah, good point. I did think about Italian designs on Austria as well, while watching the video.
Crazy ! World war 2 was bound to happen, no matter what.
War with Republican Spain would have mean war against Germany, contributor. Maybe against Italy too ? Yougoslavia vs italy ? Turkey vs Greece & French empire ? And the UK ?
The Rhineland being the cause of divergence can be familiar to anyone who's ever played France in Hearts of Iron IV.
Ah, yes. But French communists here not just cry against war, they rise against warmongering France
And then the France player gets kicked because people don't like you doing this in multiplayer.
@@gengarzilla1685 Me when I've only ever done singleplayer-
yes and i lose half my army to commies
@@alexzero3736warmonger lul
Poland said to France in 1936 that if France would attack germany Poland would help so in this scenario I think Poland and maybe czechoslovakia would in deed help France
For sure if france supported czechoslovakia, there is no nazi Germany getting those needed supplies for Poland, then ussr, etc. Basically hitler is screwed.
I wonder if the USSR would join against Poland in this scenario, and then causing WW2, a different one tho, where Germany and the USSR team up
In this scenario there wasn't really an "attack" though, France was merely upholding the Treaty. An attack would have been pushing out of the Rhineland and invading Germany. Maybe then Poland would/could have joined, but France invading and going further than their treaty obligations is unrealistic.
@@mariotheundyingUSSR at this time was in the heat of Great Purge. They won't do anything.
Well, there is the "Little Entente" that France is basically leader off, with Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and Romania
I wonder how long Hitler would have lasted in this scenario. His regime was predicated on building a Greater Germany and without any success on that front, would the regime survive? It's possible it might crumble some time in the mid 40s even without military defeat. OTOH, maybe he'd be like Franco and prove surprisingly politically adept and remain in power until the 70s!
And also, would he even initiate the worst crimes the nazis committed in our worlds, headlined by the Holocaust? With this weaker Germany, they might simply not have the ability.
There's also the question of whether a non-violent change in power is possible - I'll admit I'm not familiar with the situation in Germany in the 1930s, such as whether elections were still a thing after the nazis rose to power.
@@RandooGamingConcentration Camps and Extermination Camps
The former was already in use before the war, but I think the ladder was only started around 1944
@@RandooGamingthey did happen. Go back to university.
Hitler and Mussolini would probably die and bring their regimes down with them like Franco
@@RandooGamingcope and seethe, your heroes were evil.
The fact that Britain and France actually tought of doing this, but didnt go through because of public opinion is "funny". Machiavelli was right sayin that if you base your reputation in the masses, you are putting it on mud. Bismarck was a good leader because he literally didnt care about public opinion, mostly due to his aristocratic nature. And in the end the masses made him the hero of Germany anyway lol
The good of the nation is the good of the people.
@@o5-1-formerlycalvinlucien60 Evidently it wasn't here considering it would have spared the world another war.
@@kingofhearts3185he means that the good of the nation goes before the good of the people, even if it goes against their will or even against a part of your people. you took it to mean the opposite.
@@antoniocampen Ah, I've never heard that phrase before. I very much agree.
didnt bismarck oppose the annexation of alsace-lorraine and the start of colonization but had to give in because of public support
You should have mentioned Poland would be willing to assist France in invasion of germany
I don’t think Poland would because I don’t think they’d want to risk being seen as diplomatically untrustworthy because the polish and Germans signed a non agression pact that year I believe
@@dogsittinggay7273 When Hitler came to power in Germany, Józef Piłsudski proposed to the French a joint intervention in Germany to remove him from power, but France refused.
@dogsittinggay7273 really? Boy I need to read up on 1930s polish German relations.
@@righthandstep5 it might’ve been 1936 but yeah even still the polish we’re expecting an invasion at some point but they only started militarising after the Munich agreement
@@dogsittinggay7273 Poland considered attacking in 1933 from what i remember but was shut down because of western powers being uninterested, in case France decides to attack Germany Poland may choose to assist France
Man I love PH's videos so much, I want two of them.
Genie: your wish is granted 13:06
Fr
As a french man I bet there would be a revolution somewhere in this timeline, just for the sake of respecting our old traditions
Poland in our timeline itself proposed to invade in 3 moments. After Nazis took power in 1933, after rhineland militarisation in 1936 and when germans annexed austria. OFC it heavily realied on the french backing as it was known that while huge progres would be made, a war alone with just germany can isolate poland in world's stage, letting Stalin to take it to his advantage. Not only that Poland didnt underestimate his opponent knowing well, that if they attack Germany, they can rapidly mobilize as well in other options we already knew about the hidden army as we were quick to break the german code and so risking such move would be disasterous if france wouldnt intervene, which after asking if they would, they declined.
Exactly. Poland's existence was based on the Treaty of Versailles and it wanted it to be upheld in full. It would 100% go to war with Germany if it found any ally willing to help the uphold the Treaty. IIRC they even asked Japan if it was willing.
It wasn't France who declined it was Uk. The French proposed the plan in 1935 and chamberlain refused.
13:06 that echo😂😂😂😂😂😂
Hoping we can see a “What if everything went perfect for Poland” video.
Ok here there’s a massive mistake. U stated that Italy was more sympathetic to Germany which isn’t at all the case as Italy itself called for an invasion of Germany only 2 yrs before your start of the scenario furthermore the Spanish civilwar hasn’t kicked in yet and that’s where the relationship between Italy and Germany started to change ( which is why the nazis joined in the first place as they didn’t gave a fuck about the Spanish and the Italians were there only because they were trying to turn all Latin nations fascist). If France however wanted to do this Italy would 100% try to get something out of it aside of not having big Germany looming over their head from Austria which is the main reason for which Mussolini didn’t join the allies but preferred aligning himself with Hitler with the creation of the axis. But don’t be mistaken both the italo-German alliance and the Molotov ribentrop pact were a result of Anglo-French incompetence more than Germany ability
Italy was ready to go war with Germany when Germany annexed austria. Their relationship changed when Italy occupied Ethiopia and Germany supported them
Although this is a mistake it isn’t a massive one as Benito Mussolini would not care enough to invade Germany anyways.
Yes, that!
Indeed, the whole scenario is built on a very bad knowledge of the actors of the time.
Thank you, someone had to bring this up.
These videos are getting better and better! Great job dude!
minecraft
minecraft
minecraft
minecraft
the amount of horrible mistakes that allies made that lead to early german successes in ww2 is impressive lol
At this Time the French president and UK prime minister went to germany to discuss about german invasion of austria , they agreed to let germany do anything they want. When French president came Back to France. He was greeted by the people because he « saved france from a war ». He knew What he just did in germany and Said « oh no, they are imbeciles »
He realised his mistake and knew a world war was going to happen. But he was afraid of losing opinion from French people
the people in France werent of one opinion though. It were the socialists who naively thought that war could be avoided. France must've acted tough when it had advantage over Germany, ia when germans entered Rheinland because Hilter was wisely afraid and ordered to retreat immediately if the allies show up. There might have been a chance to avoid ww2, all countries were already recovering from great depression. To be honest, austrian painter wasn't even planning a major war, when he demanded Danzig he legit thought that France and Britain wouldn't come at him, and was scared af when the war was declared, reportedly saying
"what now?" @@titcab8159
@@titcab8159 its Chamberlain who did that.
It has been months... can you please make what if everything went perfect for Romania?
Bassarabia would still be a Romanian territory even after 1941, The Romanian Kingdom would probably be MUCH bigger than in our own tineline
I would have preferred if he made it the Halloween special. Where Romania is led by Prince Vlad Tepes, an actual vampire, and thus immortal, in this Timeline.
Yes
Yes
I think we all need to unite to make this idea a reality!
Napoleon be like: Guess who’s back!
this was a great video keep these coming
France: I will do what i must
Germany: You will try!
Amazing video Possible History! I loved it
The thing that is missing in the video is that Poland would help France in war with Germany. In our timeline the polish government accually proposed France the intervention over the Rihnland, but France refused. With that in mind it is very possible that France and Poland should quckly win the war, Germany would lost very important territories like Upper Silesia and Saarland and the nazi government would be overtrowed
But how would that look on the world stage?
France bullying Germany with Poland…
France wouldn't agree with Poland joining and it will leave Poland diplomatically isolated leaving them without allies from the Soviets
I did consider this, but this would in my opinion only happen if Germany refused to surrender after French intervention. Getting Poland to join in lessers the idea of France being the protective hegemon, and taking further territories from Germany - whether it be France or Poland - isn't great either for international standing. The nazi government was still young, its horrors not fully known or executed. Removing it from power would mean total war which France wasn't ready or willing to do.
I know what you mean but in my opinion Poland would declare war on Germany by itself. This was the perfect moment for that, they had a reason for the aggression and basing on the rigged referendum in Silesia and Masuria they could even get very strategic regions. Realistically speaking the only thing that would block them is possibility of Soviet aggression. Looking at the international standing, Poland would loose the reputation and they would get punished becouse of the things they did but overall i think they wouldn't care as much about that, because of the territorial bennefits they could get. This would be an idiot test which in this case they would fail and most likely will lead to an attack from the Soviet side and the Polish failure
@@Kampi_PL and that would have pushed Poland away from Britain and other international partners, so if you have a diplomatically isolated country bordering right up against the Soviets... what do you think happens? It would be a terrible move by Poland if they invaded Germany.
Most importantly, WW1 would still be called the Great War
Suggestion man! What if the assasin killed franz joseph and his brother maximolian became Emperor?😊😊😊😊😊
Yes, a serbian student that hates austria reigning over Austria seems perfect
That is certain history
13:06 trippy
Another amazing video
13:07-13:12 possessed possible history 💀
If I had money then I would definitely donate it to you since the best part of my week is when you upload a very enjoyable video twice a week.
13:06 bro got cloned💀
France strikes back! LOVE your content 🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤
“There is something we could do” - Napolean
Fr*nce
@@KixverzEditzFrance has actually won the most battles in history.
@@SwePol🤢🤢🤢🤮🤮
@@KixverzEditzvery funny and original, you must be proud
There was a nice echo at the end. I liked it
Great video, as always, but just one thing, in the outro, your last sentence gets duplicated. Keep up the great work!
Thank you I already thought that this was a Special video only Channel members could watch
You should do some audiobooks, you have such a soothing voice
France: Germany don’t do that! Germany: No France: Ok :)
What if everything went perfect for Romania
When Germany anunsed its territorial ambitions, Poland offered France to invade Germany in a two fronts war, but France rejected this proposal. I think you should make a video with this in the future
French army could'nt invade germany even the invasion of poland because french army was desing to defend not attack and most general incompetant and this lack of attack and good general have been see when France try to attack the sigfrig lines( an absolute catastroph for french army)
@@wakpuissant5780 Yes, I know. But it will be interesting video
@@wakpuissant5780of course they could have done it.
@@andrefasching1332French army in 1939/1940 dosen't have the artillery or tank who can breakthrough the siegfrieg line event the low german personal. The general staff have seen this when in only one low attack france take 2000 casulaties agains 200
France had more tanks than Germany lol. The problem was the defensive doctrine, but that could have been changed. @@wakpuissant5780
Love the video
I think Poland would be willing to aid the French in the invasion, as in out timeline Poland actually proposed a preemptive attack on Germany a few times, but the propositions were turned down by France.
By UK not by France. France did in 1925...
“Shir, meant to upload that tomorrow”
- PH 2023
The end of the video is halarious
"puts their foot down" sounds way too familiar doesnt it?
Possible Historian having a schizoid moment editing this pre-scheduled uploaded video, around 13:05
in that case german schools would still teach that "both world wars were germanys fault"
there would be no second war though
@@AshkanPacinoan13 the video is about whaht would happen if france invaded germmany in 1935, that means there was a first world war, and this invasion is the second (world) war
i like this video good job
yet another banger
Fun fact: Poland wanted to invade Germany and the Piłsudzki called French president to attack them from the west and Poland will attack from the east and French president respondent by laughting
It’d be cool if you did war treaty votes for alternate war scenarios/endings, such as the Central Powers winning WW1.
I love possible history
Good video
The No-no Germans really just should have stopped expanding after annexing Czechia.
Sudetenland borders look cursed though, Czechia is all shriveled up
Lore of What If France Invaded Germany in 1935? Momentum 100
finally so,eone with quality does this case
wow i love this timeline
Depressing how good this timeline is, if France had acted like that. You didn't even mention the holocaust which may have been avoided despite all the antisemitism.
What’s the holocaust
in 1935 Poland wanted to convince france to preemptively strike germany, so i'm certain that poles would get themselves involved in this scenario somehow
Will we have a perfect Japan video? Ive noticed it was removed from your planed videos
Germany was caught justifying, suffering 25infamy!
What if everything went perfect for Romania when?
I recon the french could’ve got the Czechs and poles to join. Promise future safety for the Czechs and polish Silesia to Poland.
And kids... That's why you don't procrastinate !
As a Pole I believe Poland wouldn't "just" look at it from the East
You’re like the one alt history guy on here that doesn’t treat materialist views of history with revulsion, a candle in the darkness.
When people ask for more PH 13:06.
Somehow I don't see this scenario often
If France would attac Germany in 1935 most probbably it would be the attac from both sides and Poland would join that war, which probbably would mean bigger terrotorial losses of Germany. Actually Piłsudski was one of the few leaders in Europe who saw the problem just after Hitler started to rule in Germany.
Alternative history ideas
1. What if the British didn't detain German ships during the boer war?
2. What if Churchill won the election after ww2
3. What if the USA maid the Soviets pay for aid during ww2
4. What if the USA didn't make Britain pay for aid during ww2
5. What if FDR didn't die during ww2
It’s insane that Germany excepted the Treaty of Versailles, a lot of countries at the time would have fought to the bone to no have that treaty.
new vid time babyyyy
i thought i was tripping at the end lmao
While it's obviously easy to look back on events and suggest better options, we probably needed to learn the hard way that pushing off problems just makes them bigger problems further down the line. My only hope is that we would carry that lesson forward to now and make better decisions, but the relative inaction by the world after the 2014 annexation of Crimea by Russia is a perfect example of how history repeats. If the world had acted stronger then, we likely would not have the current conflict and general instability that one could liken to the 1930s. We need to deal with threats from rogue states and dictators sooner, because ignoring them doesn't mean the problem goes away.
I am from Russia, and i totally agree with you, but i think west world must doing something alredy during russian invasion in Georgia. But in general, dictatorship in Russia starts much earlier - in 2000, when Putin become president
Am I the only one who heard an echo at the end. It was freaky but kinda cool too.
7:08 I just want to point out that here PH said that Hungary and Bulgaria were struggling with the aftermath of WWII, when it didn’t happen yet. Just to clarify, I’m only pointing this out so that PH can fix this error as soon as possible! Also, congrats on 100k🎉
This was a great scenario! I’m left wondering about what would have happened in the domestic politics of the Soviet Union, Germany, and the US in the 1940s and 50s without the defining event of World War 2, and also how the decolonization of India and Southeast Asia would unfold without the Asian theater of World War 2.
Hello, does anybody know what song is playing on the background?
"What if European powers properly conclused WWI instead of letting WWII set up"
My guy has to calm down, bro is grinding these videos like there is no tomorrow.
I don't know. The French general staff was very defensive minded and not suited to a post WWI war. French tank doctrine was almost completely ignored. Their tanks were built to be defensive tools, and there was no real coordination between the tanks and the infantry.
The Germans had been working on tank warfare doctrine since the 1920s. The 500 or so Panzer's that the Germans had in 1935 would have been a huge force multiplier against the French.
Another point is that much of the French military was stationed overseas. The remainder in Europe still outnumbered the Germans, but it was a narrower lead.
As a final note, the French government of 1935 was a horrible partisan mess. Communists, Nationalists, and more. It was until the coalition of 1936 that things calmed down. No way the 1935 government would be able to lead a war.
France: Sends an ultimatum that Germany likely won't comply with
Austria-Hungary: "Didn't you learn from when we did this?"
Obviously the situation isn't the same but I thought it was funny
I find it doubtful that France would have this level of success. Armies apart from each other, they also fight the war on logistics. Not to mention popular, governmental and military support. We all know that even 5 years later (although they failed to prepare much), France's army was at a really bad state for various reasons. Also, do you really believe Hitler would go for a peace deal after being invaded by France? He would probably push for massive conscription and given the situation, he would likely meet with little resistance if not enthusiastic support from the German people. This would fit his narrative 100%.
I see the situation going as follows. France pushes up to a point, say the Rhine, where German mobilization, logistics issues and resistance movements bring the war to a standstill. Given the mindset of the French leadership, this would probably devolve into a WW1-type war with shelling across the river and little to no gains from either side. But France is a ticking timebomb: the Popular front's popularity probably explodes even more in this timeline, the colonies are in an uproar and perhaps even in the military there is dissatisfaction both from young recruits taking the brunt of the force as well as older higher-ups who see this as a repeat of 1914. Either from the French government collapsing or Germans starting to push back, eventually the war ends with no territory changing hands. Perhaps the point this would happen would be when Germans push the French back into their territory, with some losses. Under diplomatic pressure, the Germans agree to a ceasefire, with terms very favorable for them. Essentially all Versailles constraints on rearmament are lifted, which were already de facto were since Germans claimed they were simply defending their homeland. Germany and France recognize the sovereignty of the other nation in their respective territory, with Hitler doing so begrudgingly since this means recognizing Alsace-Lorraine as French land. Germany also joins the next naval treaty (Third London Naval Treaty?) where the British make sure they are very limited in terms of naval development.
This is an obvious win for the UK, ensuring dominance in Europe and a divided continent for the foreseeable future. France is reeling, perhaps even losing some colonies much earlier, facing great internal unrest and having no desire to join any wars for the decades to come.
This leaves the Germans, which in my opinion, leads to an even worse outcome than in our timeline. The Nazis now have an unlimited propaganda well to draw from, a mass mobilization already going and remilitarization. But more importantly, France declines to join any further conflict, eliminating completely any western front. Assuming the situation proceeds as on our timeline, with the Nazis trying to secure any land containing German-speaking minorities. Perhaps the UK declares once Poland is invaded, as in our timeline, but with the smaller front, a land invasion is out of the question. Italy is the wildcard in the scenario, since it could serve either as a useful ally to the Germans (and perhaps due to the German-French war they actually bother to militarize somewhat) or they become the soft underbelly with an invasion proceeding from the south, probably with a lot more casualties due to the terrain.
It would've also made France more vigilent of Germany's moves, and more willing to prepare itself for a heavy, well structured defense? Back then, people were torn between the idea that Hitler was trying to "make Germany Great Again" and the idea that he wanted to invade everything on sight. Without reliable allies and bitter at how other countries would consider it to be a bully, France would prepare for a self reliance scenario, heavily preparing its reserve army, perhaps at the cost of social progress and economic growth.
Unwilling to take any more bullshit on its soil/colonies, France would've become strong, but harsh and way, way further from the Human Rights that it was supposed to be.
Well it was successful in 1925 at least
When France occupied the Rhineland and the Ruhr in 1923, to secure payment from that area, the German government ordered their Population to passively resist the occupiers and told its officials to refuse commands by the French.
What if the French viewed it as a breaking of Versailles, as Germany couldn't otherwise guarantee its payment, and decided to invade the Weimar Republic alltogether, if they don't allow the French to do as they please.
Is this scenario realistic? No, absolutely not.
Do I want to See what happens if that scenario were to happen? Still yes.
I’m gonna try this in HOI4 in a 1933 start date.
Get Reverse Ardenne’d
You should do a scenario where WW2 begins in 1938
What if everything went perfect for Mexico
But wouldn't/shouldn't this start earlier? Like not accepting the young plan and continued occupation of the Rheinland?
I wonder what would happen if restrictions on tank production led to the Germans building mechs as a loophole to remilitarize. I'm pretty sure the Germans had such advanced rocket technology because of the Versailles treaty not targeting rockets. BTW, this is my best explanation for how mechs could come about considering their inferiority to tanks. I'd make a reddit post, but I'm banned and I don't want to make another account.
What if everithing went perfect for Romania
HOI4 games be like:
Day 2 of asking for what if everything went perfect for the ottomans
The empire strikes back 2
What if Prussia didn't take Alsace-Lorraine after defeating France in the Franco-Prussian War?
So why prussia wanted to push France for having this War ? If they dont take alsace lorraine they don t need a war
@wakpuissant5780 I mean that they should treat France like they treated Austria, and Bismarck himself actually didn't want to take any land, because he knew it would make France forever hostile.
@@wakpuissant5780 Prussia started the war (by provoking France) in order to unite Germany. Taking Alsace-Lorraine was a nice bonus.
@@RouGeZHThey wanted united all german people and they wanted alsace-lorraine because their is german too. Even the first place was to united germany
Honestly in this timeline I think Hitler and Mussolini would probably die and bring their regimes down with them like how it went in Spain, or maybe they’d get couped
Hitler would, but it feels possible that Mussolini's regime may outlive him.
Wait. Did you do the video on the viewers choose ww1?
What I think is off about this, at least that I notice, is it just glosses over Austria and gives it to Germany. The Austrian leadership was against this, considering themselves to be the "better" and Catholic Germany, and having a proud history of their own. Many Austrians agreed with this sentiment and I've heard argument both ways about which side was more popular (the other side being those who wanted union with Germany). However, at the end of the day, they were not a democracy, and so it seems at least evident that Austrians aren't so very united that they'd just their government. The reason Austria accepted union is because Germany sent their army and Austria didn't want a brothers' war that they'd lose anyways.
Austria is sometimes said to have had a very similar government to Portugal. Having a Western-friendly autocracy that is also friendly with Germany would certainly be interesting in the time period. It would also be interesting to see what that Austria would do, as Portugal managed to significantly turn around their country, and Austria was enacting similar policies. Could we have seen Austria significantly improve their government and remain a staunchly Catholic dictatorship? Interesting.
People would be saying hitler was treated unfairly by france to this day
Realistically I would predict that Italy would focus more on relations with Spain and backing Austrian independence. The USSR meanwhile would have sights set on Poland but would be happy with Germany being contained due to Stalins good relations with the west prior to the Sudeten crisis
Does anybody know what the song is in 1:58?
It is actually similar to what happened in 1923 in the Ruhr.