How Zelda's Puzzle Box Dungeons Work
VloĹžit
- Äas pĹidĂĄn 19. 11. 2020
- đ´ Get bonus content by supporting Game Makerâs Toolkit - gamemakerstoolkit.com/support/ đ´
My favourite Zelda dungeons are the ones that move, turn, change, and travel through time. After much research, I return from the depths of Hyrule with some Boss Keys and plenty of design details on how these puzzle box dungeons work.
Sources
[1] Latest Zeldaâs making process | Denfaminicogamer
news.denfaminicogamer.jp/engl...
[2] Water Temple | noclip.website
noclip.website
[3] Zelda Director Apologizes For Ocarina Water Temple, Hints At Link Taking Flight | Game Informer
www.gameinformer.com/b/news/a...
Games shown in this episode (in order of appearance)
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (Nintendo, 1998)
The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword (Nintendo, 2011)
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (Nintendo, 2017)
The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (Nintendo, 2000)
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD (Nintendo, 2013)
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess HD (Nintendo, 2016)
The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (Nintendo, 2019)
The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages (Flagship / Nintendo, 2001)
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D (Grezzo / Nintendo, 2011)
New Super Mario Bros. U (Nintendo, 2012)
The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds (Nintendo, 2013)
Hyper Light Drifter (Heart Machine, 2016)
Carto (Sunhead Games, 2020)
Music used in this episode
Music from The Legend of Zelda series, by Nintendo
Other credits
Karakuri puppet - ăăăă人形 | TokyoStreetView - Japan The Beautiful
⢠Karakuri puppet - ăăăă...
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess Retrospective | Nintendo
⢠The Legend of Zelda: T...
ăăăăćĺć¸ă人形ĺŽćź | ćąć¸ćąäşŹĺçŠé¤¨EDO-TOKYO-Museum
⢠ăăăăćĺć¸ă人形ĺŽćź
Mario Myths with Mr Miyamoto | Nintendo
⢠Mario Myths with Mr Mi...
1980 RUBIKS CUBE IDEAL TOYS | tvdays
⢠Video
Contribute translated subtitles⌠amara.org/en-gb/videos/gGFuKx... - Hry
Let's just take a moment to appreciate the fact that Aonuma makes _fully mechanical robots_ as a _hobby._
I thought making Gunpla was cool, but this is on another level.
Well "hobby". Thats what he studied and got his masters degree on.
âYou canât brute force the dungeon through trial and errorâ ohoho you underestimate my dumbassery and stubbornness
You guys are too smart. Shrines in botw turn me into an angry monkey. If I had more money I wouldâve thrown the damn thing
When I did Vah Naboris and there were rhese two electrical spots where we must activate both of them at the same time to activate the final terminal, I stripped myself of all my weapons and shields to connect the electric currents and got through.
What an intelligent and sharp player can complete in a setting, I myself as a child could do through sheer willpower, and determination ... after multiple weeks . Repeatedly trying each and every possible combination of functions in the dungeon WILL eventually produce the right combination. Even if I had no idea what made it right.
You know what... looking back on my childhood, crap like this, and that bloody water temple are probably why I have trust issues now. haha
Them: "You can't brute force it with trial and error"
Me: you mean there's a different way?
@@pablowoods1848 with the power of physics and sheer willpower any puzzle is solvable. Its basically how speedrunning is born.
Never thought we'd get another vid about Zelda Dungeons after Boss Keys! Love hearing Mark gush over them đ
The video came out half an hour ago *_how did you comment a day ago!?_*
@@nkanyisoinnocentkhwane3752 patreon probably
@@nkanyisoinnocentkhwane3752 patreon?
@@nkanyisoinnocentkhwane3752 That delicious $5 Patreon membership gets your early video access.
@@nkanyisoinnocentkhwane3752 Probably a Patreon, a lot of channels give users early access to content.
Didn't expect you'd ever actually "finish" boss keys season 1, a suprise to be sure but a welcome one
STILL WAITING FOR 1986 ZELDA 1 BOSS KEYS
@@FloydTaylor uhm, that exists
@@FloydTaylor WAITING FOR CD-i BOSS KEYS
Thanks palatine
The graphs show that the best Zelda dungeons canât be graphed.
Haha, it's so true
You can definitely graph them. Just use locations as nodes and use lines to represent the ability to transition from one to another. You can divide each dungeon state as a frame connected by the transition points
only on a 3D transparent map.
@@deadlypandaghost but what about going up and down
@@deadlypandaghost 4d maps only work if there are a few 'floors' you can transition the dungeon layout between.
...I'm not sure how that would work with the sliding puzzle dungeon in Skyward Sword or the 64 states of the camel, for a couple of examples.
Iâd like to see a game have a level/dungeon that requires players go through a series of increasingly difficult and complex puzzles only for the last one to be the most mind numbingly easy and simple to solve but presented in a way that makes you think it also has a complex solution, just to trip up the player. Like a dungeon version of âI just answered C three times in a row, thereâs no way the fourth question is also Câ where the real puzzle is to overcome your own mind games
You just described a question on my physics exam yesterday that I spent 45 minutes on
I also like puzzles which get increasingly complex, but then have a very simple one thrown in...but it's SO basic that you don't even realize it because you are stuck in a very complicated way of thinking.
That was kind of my experience in my first divine beast in BotW. There was a lever I was sure had to require some type of dungeon thingie or map modification to make it work, and I spend some time looking for it at first, only to finally realize I just needed to use magnesis to spin it around.
have you played "The Talos Principle"? It had some puzzles that tricks you like that
Portal 2 has moments like that, though mostly by accident I think.
âGrandpa, why do you like GMTK so much?â
âI think you are now ready, ready to hear what happened 100 years ago.â
The history of the royal famaly is also the history of GMTK
This is brilliant! I even accidentally read this in King Rhoam's voice as soon as I saw the quote.
I do not understand the comment. Is this because they took way too much time, for a quality channel such as this, to get to a milliom subs? Or is it related to Marks past in someway? I dunno. I am lost. Please help.
@@saquescuya its more a joke or easter egg thing in botw and hyrule warriors aoc is a quote taht goes you are know ready ready to hear what happen 100 years ago and the fact that mark has an entire series called boss key where he tooks level desings and analayses them where seasson 1 is all about zelda
@@albedo4008 And I also think that the original comment is saying that, he'll keep liking GMTK to tell the tale to his grandchildren.
The Lanayru Sand areas and time shift dungeons totally elevated Skyward Sword a whole letter grade in my view. It's like a whole different team of geniuses were working on the desert section of that game!
Also, Stone Tower has the best music in all of Zelda
Yeah, my headcannon is that the A team worked on the desert level which had all new sections for all 3 visits and had the best dungeons in the entire game. The B team worked on the fire area which was fine. It made good use of terrain for the three different scenarios. And then the worst group worked on the forest area to make it as annoying as possible with the sole exception of the Ancient Cistern.
So... they sent the game's fun level *skyward*?
@@masterboa6321 the doors behind you
@@Mr.Slinky *turns around and yeets you out the door
no
i found the best rooms in skyward sword came from lanayru. the second generator room, the boss key room in the mining facility, and the triforce of wisdom room in the sky keep.
"Hints are great, but they should be optional" A-ha! An 'Accessibility in Video Games' video, in disguise!
Great video!
Looking forward to this years Accessibility roundup; hope we as an industry are doing better still.
And here it was relevant again with God of War: RagnarĂśk, causing Mark to make his first Mini episode
As much as I love the fight system, world exploration, and story telling aspects of the Zelda games, solving the puzzles and unlocking the mysteries of each dungeon will always be my favorite part of the series!
Same, i hope the breath of the wild sequel combines these two concepts successfully.
Exactly, if BoTW 2 combines BoTWâs strong exploration with actual Zelda dungeons, itâd probably be the greatest Zelda of all time tbh.
@@ahumanperson3649 wholeheartedly agree with you!
@@ahumanperson3649 Bring back actual items too
@@sasook that would definitely be nice, though I wouldnât be too disappointed if they didnât.
It is rather great to see the 'final' video after all this time. And it ended up being rather short and sweet too! I suppose that's a benefit of all those other many videos of research, allows you to condense it all down well. I do hope we see more puzzle box dungeons - from Zelda games and otherwise - in the future as well! :D
How do you know it's the final video? Not that I don't believe you, I just don't see "final episode" or "season/series" finally anywhere.
@@ThatFetcherFargoth It's because this video was supposed to be the culmination of the first season of Boss Keys, the last episode of which went up over two years ago.
STILL WAITING FOR 1986 ZELDA 1 BOSS KEYS
@@FloydTaylor He uh...already did that...he combined Zelda 1 and 2 into the same video
This type of puzzle box design is part of the reason why Oracle of Ages and Seasons are my favorite Zelda games. Ages essentially brings the micromanagement of a puzzle dungeon not only in the really complex dungeons like Jabu Jabu Belly(I had to write notes for this since it was more daunting than the Water and Great Bay Temple) but also extends to the overworld with the time travel gimmick. Seasons on the other hand, while having less of an emphasis on puzzles, combined the best parts of a labyrinth and puzzle box style design to deliver decently complex dungeons with really fun items and difficult complex encounters.
The Oracle games have fantastic dungeons! Jabu Jabu's Belly was absolutely ridiculous, and quickly became one of my favourite Zelda dungeons of all time. I love to tell people it's my favourite, and then string them along for as long as possible before saying I'm talking about Jabu Jabu's Belly, not *Inside* Jabu Jabu's Belly. The roundabout thingy was also brilliant. Such an underplayed pair of games.
The Oracle games have quite a lot of great game design in them, and they're really underappreciated.
I'm hoping for a remake at some point. It would make sense to revisit those games now that they have done Link's Awakening already. Though I personally think that the artstyle of the Link's Awakening remake wouldn't quite fit the more serious tone of the Oracle games.
when looking at the dungeon designs overall, ages might on average have the best in the series. one dungeon that does need to be cleaned up however is mermaid's cave because the "test your luck" challenge is probably the worst design choice due to the unnecessary randomness while several single room challenges seem a bit random, however, the dungeon itself is what oot's spirit temple should have been. although platforming in the shield and sword maze is annoying, the layout has good variety. a fairly linear gauntlet in the first half and a non linear puzzle box in the second half. the oracle games in general have some pretty good map variety as well. ages has a few very non linear dungeons like moonlit grotto and the crown dungeon and some in between while the skull dungeon is very linear if i remember correctly. ancient tomb is a spider leg hub room dungeon in the second half while the first part is fairly linear. the turnstyle and minecarts were the best dungeon features introduced in the oracle games although the latter was derived from the somaria tracks from alttp's turtle rock.
overall i think ages and seasons had some of the best but also some of the worst in the series. the bad is the randomness factor from the rings, stealth in subrosia, forced minigames, clunky physics, and plot barriers that result in railroading, but their main gimmicks were handled really well and among the best like the time loop of majora's mask and the wall merge of a link between worlds. i hope that if they get remade, the rings all have a use, the randomness factor is cut back significantly, and there is more flexibility with its freedom. just don't get grezzo to return because they are very inconsistent with their changes. they make some good, some bad such as more hand holding, and omit changes that are needed such as not fixing the elegy of emptiness problem in stone tower which is very tedious.
@@corhydrae3238 to be honest if remade, i do not want grezzo to return as they are very inconsistent. i would like to see quality of life changes and more structural freedom without affecting the level design. when looking at the dungeons, some random rooms could be rearranged with other dungeons where they are less dependent on that item. for example, jabu jabu's belly is about the switch hook but has a room that does not need it while mermaid's cave does. if those rooms are swapped then that is one less item needed in that dungeon but does remove the puzzle challenge overall. perhaps adding or changing new rings can add more flexibility in how dungeons can be tackled as well. overall, the time travel mechanic and seasonal changes were handled pretty well and i really liked the turnstyle puzzles in the dungeons.
Is anyone gonna talk about how Mark just has stock footage of Shigeru Miyamoto pointing at himself
I'm pretty sure that's the clip of Miyamoto answering who Bowser Jr.'s mother is
I think there are two things that could make this sort of dungeon easier to stomach, so that they aren't such a severe difficulty spike. Because really that's the problem when you break it down, is that they're usually such a shift in solution requirements and/or complexity, that it's hard to get a grasp on them.
1. Make it so that before players can even interact with the main 'dungeon morphing' mechanic at all, they get the chance to explore clear out all of the core rooms. Give the player the ability to map out the dungeon at its base level before you start asking them to change the layout and routing.
2. Get rid of the troll-esque 'permanent' mistakes people can make. It always sucks when you drop down a hole, or enter a door, only for that to put you in a room you didn't want to be in, that requires retreading space as a punishment, and resetting room configurations in order to try again. Preferably, I don't think you should ever be locked out of progress by making a wrong turn, unless getting back to where you were is an extremely short process.
This backtracking punishment makes the player timid, because suddenly there's a HUGE, often unwarranted risk to making choices. Go through a door that then locks behind you, but puts you back on a path you don't want to be on? Have fun trekking back through 3 rooms to reset the dungeon to its original configuration, then 5 more rooms to reset it to the configuration you need it to be on, and then another 2 rooms to get back to where you were when you entered the room with the locking door. And hope along the way that you don't get lost, and that you aren't rushing so much that you accidentally go BACK THROUGH THE DOOR AGAIN because you're not thinking.
There's little value in asking players to go back through rooms where enemies have respawned, and they need to use a song again to spawn a statue on a button, and have to switch out to three different tools in the menu along the way, all because they took one wrong turn. So be aware of how often player might accidentally make those mistakes, and try to make sure that they always have a quick way to get back to where they were. Limit the amount of tedious work they have to do when re-entering rooms, and try to be aware of the relationship between enemy respawns, and the paths you lay out for them when they need to loop back around. This can kind of tie back into the first point, by allowing players to use the routes they opened up early on as shortcuts that have little in the way of resistance. The hub and spoke system can help in this regard, particularly if there are easy shortcuts that can be opened up between the spokes. That way the player is never more than two rooms away from where they made the mistake in the first place. Because in my experience, it's the fear of single mistakes requiring tens of minutes of resetting/retreading that really makes these sorts of dungeons frustrating for me. I don't dislike the concept; I dislike that the most common punishment for exploring, getting my bearings, and trying solutions in these dungeons is tedious backtracking. Either make that backtracking as non-tedious as possible, or limit it, so that I can keep focused on actually solving the puzzle.
"Get rid of the troll-esque 'permanent' mistakes people can make. It always sucks when you drop down a hole, or enter a door, only for that to put you in a room you didn't want to be in, that requires retreading space as a punishment, and resetting room configurations in order to try again."
I hate when games do that. Give me a real punishment, don't just waste my time. If I fall down a pit, just do some damage and put me back next to the pit. I don't need to spend 5 minutes backtracking to get back to where I fell in the pit, that just makes your game suck. Games should be testing my skill at their mechanics, not testing my patience.
@@mjc0961 I certainly think there is a time and place where backtracking or 'time spent' can be an adequate punishment. But yeah, it should be used extremely sparingly, usually have very, very clear tells, and time shouldn't be the only/primary punishment in those instances. Give the player some way to recognize that as the outcome of their decision before they make it. A good way to do that is to simply have a much more clear map than Zelda often offers. Mark one-way doors, holes, traps after I've fallen into them, etc. Or even incorporate it into the gameplay by allowing me to mark it myself, like an adventurer would.
Another thing would be putting puzzles that reward you for remembering an element from earlier in the dungeon with a useful, but optional item. Stuff like going back and filling the left room from the Lakebed Temple is a great example as if that was the boss key, it would make the dungeon infuriating if you didn't see it. But because it's a heart piece, strong players are rewarded for remembering an element of the dungeon, while weak players won't be infuriated. Same with the destroyable floor in the Snowpeak Ruins, as if that was required, it would probably be extremely frustrating to weaker players as it's very easy to completely miss, mainly because of the misdirection in that puzzle.
Number 2 is why the Ice Palace (ALttP) was so difficult. The entire place was a nightmare maze of one-way paths, with a few dumping you back at the beginning.
Great work in condensing the thrust of Boss Keys into a succinct essay! Seeing cross-series examples together is a treat, as are notes on mitigating their shortcomings.
Would love to see commentary on what you'd like to see from future "puzzle box" dungeons and where you think the formula can be pushed further.
I'd also enjoy videos summing up his findings on the other two types of Zelda puzzle he noticed during his deep dive.
Going back to âhelping the player through the level designâ, Another trick I can think of to make puzzle box dungeons a little less frustrating is to offer more sign posting to the player.
I had a way better time with the 3DS remake of the Water Temple not only because I spent less time pausing for the iron boots, but also because the remake highlights which doors off the main room lead to water switches. You still need to navigate back to the main area, change the water level, then make your way back to solve any water level puzzles, but the dungeon makes note of the paths youâll be taking multiple times.
Letting us annotate our own maps is likely a good way of handling things (along with an opt-in hint system) while not hand-feeding the player. BotW did it with the little icons and it worked well in the overworld context, but Hollow Knight's map pin system is just marvellous and I think the two combined shows it can work on any scale and in any context with a map.
Unpopular opinion: I found Skyward Sword's Sheika Eye to be a good way to dole out hints. Most people seem to think it was too on the nose, but the fact it only gives puzzle hints (doesn't tell absentminded players where to go next like most fortune teller NPCs) and requires the player to travel all the way back to the hub in order to use it makes it both inconvenient enough to not use unless necessary while still a convenient enough in-game alternative to dissuade all but the most careless of players from resorting to the internet.
-
I didn't even like Skyward Sword, but the Sheika Eye is the one thing in that game people bash that I'll support. I think it made a lot of sense. I think it would make even more sense in BotW2, since traveling takes a bit of time. There's no reason to not throw a hint-giver at the hub. Even if it's way out of the way, at least it's *there.* Even making the miniature pilgrimage to it for a hint will feel like a kind of game mechanic in of itself. But I don't think BotW2 will have any hints, which is fine. But I know this will have a lot of people turning to the internet for dungeon assistance.
@@Graphomite OoT3D and MM3D did the Sheikah Eye mechanic as well, though, and I don't remember anyone complaining about it it those games. Like you said, it's helpful, but it's also optional, so if you're _completely_ stuck, you can just use in-game hints instead of risking spoiling the game for yourself by taking the perilous trek for info online.
It also makes me even more annoyed with Fi - if the game's already got a hint mechanic, why try and force hints down people's throats whether they were stuck or not? I'd say THAT is the real issue, since if I loved the game and even _I_ dislike Fi, you know the devs have got her very wrong.
@@Stephen-Fox When I played through the Link's Awakening remake recently, I adored the map annotation feature for stairwells in particular, which were easy to mix up on the map. Being able to tag the exits with a matching pair of symbols made navigating the larger dungeons much more manageable without needing to explicitly signpost or alter the difficulty in other ways.
@@Markiplier2
I forgot about the hint stone thingy in OoT. It's been so long. It's safe to say that Fi's patronizing is the reason why people dislike the Sheika Eye. Also, I just remembered there's also a fortune teller in SS to give direction advice! God damn it, Skyward Sword. -_-
I feel like the puzzle-box design of the Water Temple isn't the reason it's so hated. The thing that always gets people stuck is the "key corridor".
There's a series of linear rooms leading up to the longshot that all require keys to enter, and those keys are all found elsewhere in the dungeon. Many players will find some but not all of these keys and get partway through the corridor, only to realize they need to go all the way back to the main room, search for yet another key, and then go all the way back through the corridor. Making some of these keys optional, or just more clearly communicating how many keys are needed to get through the corridor, would have alleviated a lot of players' frustration.
Similar to how in sotry tellling you should avoid adding obstacles to a destination only when they reach the destination or have cleared a previous obstacle.
It starts felling artificial and like a plot contrivance.
That's true, and it is the correct way to easily solve the water temple, you start by doing everything you can before you try the left door on top floor. If you keep that in mind it's super easy, barely an inconvenience.
@Northern Critter I completely agree. How can you be satisfied and proud of beating a game / dungeon if you switch your brain to off because it's too easy.
Same thing with a lot of games, if I don't die/ have to retry at least once, don't expect me to like the game
@@maximelepage7664 Honestly, I prefer when a game challenges my thinking but doesn't confuse me. These games are the ones I love to replay over and over because they are fun to play the first time and great to replay. Especially when they lend themselves to be done fast when you know them.
Strangely, Phantom Hourglass dungeons scratch that itch the best. And the compass of light dungeon in Spirit Tracks.
@@rac1equalsbestgame853 I'd say that it is exactly how I feel about the water temple and great Bay temple. Of course anything in 3d space will be more confusing because of the point of view.
I haven't played much of 2d zelda (yet)so I can't comment on that.
"Hi, im Mark Brown and this is Boss Keys, a series on game design"
You should give Golden Sun a try. Its dungeons are the closest you'll get to Zelda style dungeons in a JRPG
I'd say that its dungeons are still mostly puzzle rooms, but I agree that among jrpgs it's the one that has the best puzzles where they don't feel shoehorned to pad out time or to just have a puzzle.
Golden Sun is such a great game still
Golden Sun, Alundra, Lufia 2, Wild Arms 1... these are some of the best games to have Zelda styled dungeons. Give all of them a shot if you can. Alundra in articular is ridiculously amazing and challenging.
Golden Sun Boss Keys is something I want to see
Wish this guy would look at the Golden Sun and Golden Sun: The Lost Age in terms of how to do Combat Magic in Overworld Environment Puzzles along with it's dungeons.
Golden Sun's puzzles are so good!
Golden Sun's puzzles and Psynergy spoiled a lot of JRPGs for me since franchises like Final Fantasy never even came close in dungeon design/puzzles
Golden Sun was the second RPG I played after PokĂŠmon Crystal. Let's just say, its level design REALLY set the bar high for me :D
I love Golden Sun and agree that the world design integrates puzzles really well! I would love a new game in the series or its style.
@@kingofthesharks I strongly suspect that franchises like Grandia and Golden Sun are why I usually quit other turn based RPGs. I'm either bored by simplistic combat that gives you almost no moves and everyone gets a static turn rather than Grandia's IP bar that actually makes you think and strategize, and also you can control where your characters stand in battle and that can have an impact on things as well (space them out to make area of effect attacks weaker against them, move one of them to where an enemy can't reach them and the enemy will fail their attack, etc). Or I'm bored by empty dungeon design that thinks "you can't get through this door until you find a key somewhere else" is the only kind of puzzle you need. Golden Sun's out there embarrassing everybody else with its amazing Psynergy based puzzles.
Heck, I just quit Yakuza Like a Dragon because it does both things wrong at the same time. Screw chapter 6. Hour and a half slog through a dungeon that's nothing but linear hallways connecting rooms of enemies you've already fought before and are getting tired of fighting because you can only do a regular attack or an incredibly small number of "magic" attacks. No puzzles (not even the key thing I mentioned above), no interesting enemies, just hallway after hallway after hallway leading to room after room after room of encounter after encounter after encounter. And then when I finally escaped it after wasting an hour and a half of my life, the game breaks and I had to ALT+F4 and relaunch it to try again and hope it doesn't break again. Except instead of relaunching and trying again, I uninstalled it because I was so bored.
Oh, one more random thought: I also hate RPGs that have an over-reliance on randomly going "lol you missed". Having your attacks miss as an aspect of the game is fine, but it should have some rhyme or reason to it. In Pokemon you can choose between lower power moves that have a 100% chance of hitting, or higher power moves that might miss. Flamethrower VS Fire Blast, do you pick Flamethrower for a guaranteed hit but the opponent might survive, or do you go for a big damage Fire Blast but risk missing and doing no damage at all? Sure, there's randomness to the latter, but it's randomness you chose. The game just didn't go "lol you missed" purely because it felt like it. There's also moves you can use to buff your evasion, reduce the enemy accuracy, cancel out said buffs and debuffs, and attacks that never miss regardless of any of those buffs or debuffs. I quit Earthbound and Beyond the Beyond over too much random missing, and I grew to hate the first Final Fantasy just by watching a playthrough and seeing all the random misses. Random missing is not a fun game mechanic, never put that in your RPG.
I actually beat the flying divine beast dungeon without realizing you could tilt the wings with the map... just very creative use of the magnet, some conveniently thin weapons and the round bombs.
Carto is adorable
:You can't brute force you way through a puzzle or wander aimlessly for the exit"
That's exactly what I did in the water temple. Took a thousand hours of aimless wandering, but I did it.
I think that's the beauty of the design of this kind of dungeon: You can brute-force your way through them. But it saves you hours of time and a sizeable portion of your sanity if you stop and try to solve them instead.
I just wandered around Twilight Princess's water dungeon until I beat it
I've gathered that Mark really loves the "mental mapping" aspect of gaming, as he's mentioned it a lot in the Boss Keys series. I enjoy it in context of a dungeon or puzzle, but it really starts to give me anxiety in larger contexts, which is why I often struggle with metroidvania games, because it's basically a puzzle box of the entire world!
Hi Mark, I love your videos, please never stop doing this stuff! I've been here for a couple of years now and you actually helped me learn some English. So, thank you!
Zelda x GMTK - Christmas a month early.
Congrats on 1 000 000 subs man! They're well deserved.
You're a great source of knowledge and inspiration to both myself and many others.
Thank you for the great content!
I found your channel years ago through the Boss Keys series, so it's nice to see this video finally realized.
The first two Darksiders games came pretty darn close to giving me that "Zelda feel" with their dungeon designs.
I was waiting for Darksiders to be mentioned, esp. DS1 ⼠⼠âĽ
The second game lost some of the "zelda-like" feel, but it has some cool puzzles
@@ivanroman8914
Yeah the overall feel lost something, but I think 2âs dungeons were even better than the firstâs.
something interesting about Stone Tower Temple: The official strategy guide specifies over and over that the temple doesn't rotate, it inverts; specifically the horizontal arrangement of everything is kept the same. Yet over and over in the temple itself it's seen rotating upside-down, and nothing is kept arranged
Funny that they went with that visual effect only to not properly rotate things and instead just invert it. I did notice that inconsistency
@@TheGameCreator13 you can think of it as each individual room rotating separately including the entrance.
@@Ghorda9 That still wouldn't work though. The left Doors would end up on the right. If you take a room that from above is shaped like an "L" and rotate it 180 degrees you end up with a mirrored looking "L"
Something like this -> "_|"
They even call it "Inverted" rather than "Rotated," "Flipped," or "Upside down."
There's no logic behind the inconsistency but it was a rushed game so I don't blame them. Hard to notice for the most part anyway
Just kinda funny
@@TheGameCreator13 not all the rooms have to rotate in the same direction.
@@Ghorda9 For the most part, the dungeon does invert rather than rotate. This is easily noticeable in the entrance room, especially when referencing the map. The maze-like room (4 hold-buttons when normal, multiple floating statue enemies when inverted) is to the west in both versions of the dungeon, and west is to the left in both versions. If you were to rotate your screen (or head) to look at the inverted version upside-down, you'd see that the room was not actually rotated.
Oddly enough, the rooms that you can flip over while inside the dungeon (one was just to get ever a high wall, the other being the sliding block puzzle) actually do rotate rather than invert. If you are on the right side of the room when you shoot the red crystal, you'll be on the left afterward. Your map marker will even jump to the other side, though that is most apparent on the 3DS version, thanks to the always-shown map on the bottom screen.
I am happy that you made an episode on this topic.
I know it already happened in Boss Keys, but I'm glad that you made a separate episode on it.
Love your work keep it on
I like the addition of end screen recommendations, lovely idea.
theres something so comical about the person who made the OoT water temple personally apologizing for it
"Which made the divine beasts a little too easy for my liking."
Me, looking back at the multiple hours I spent struggling with those motherfucking robots: [Audible twitching]
I spent ages on the damn Thunderblight boss fight, but you have to admit all of the botw dungeons were short and incredibly boring compared to other Zelda games.
@@mrmayortheiv3802 theyâve been perfect to me. Honestly BotW is not only the best Zelda game Iâve played (and I had the original NES version as a kid) but likely the best game Iâve ever played period
@@mrmayortheiv3802 eh short sure not sure about boring, old zelda dungeons are just as easy and simple just longer
@@danny833 Imo, dungeons in previous games were the best parts of the games by far. In Breath of the Wild they were pretty much the worst part of the game.
Depends on which game of course, some had forgettable or easy dungeons, but a lot had interesting mechanics, puzzles, bosses, etc.
@@codycast lol its not that great but ok.your opinion.
This was really cool to listen to. I already knew a lot of this since Iâm a diehard Zelda fan, yet I STILL learned new things from this video. Just makes me appreciate the thought that goes into Zelda dungeons even more! đ
Keep it up the videos, man!
I love how you make a science out of the dungeon concepts. This bosskey series is so amazingly done, thank you so much for your effort!
With the exception of Snowhead Temple in Majora's Mask, I've never felt like I was actually challenged in a meaningful way. Zelda dungeons are solved in a "Notice the Solution" kinda way, there's little actual critical thinking about the layout of the dungeon, most of the challenge is actually *noticing* the problem and the solution. The underwater wall you need to bomb in the water Temple is the same thing, you just need to notice you can change the water level and that you can destroy the wall, the solution is so basic there's no need to really think about anything, you notice and bam, you're done.
The pirate ship in SS is kinda funny, cause it was the only dungeon I played in which I needed a guide, the solution was just that I haven't *noticed* a boat on the exterior that can be used as an elevator.
Play a 2D Zelda game especially the Gameboy and Gameboy color ones, they are far more challenging than the 3D ones by a long shot.
I think I agree with this assessment overall. I don't usually feel like a genius solving Zelda puzzles. But they still are fun, though.
What are you talking dude? Water temple has many puzzle than you are talking and that wall puzzle is not only noticing. But you had to find a way to create a suitable level of water and make a mind map to track that wall again. It is known as backtracking.
r/iamverysmart here
@@HerMi.T I used that Wall as an example because Mark used in the video.
I do realise how r/Imverysmart this sounds, but not even the Water Temple made me feel like I was being meaningfully challenged, again, I never felt I actually got to think about anything, cause the way I feel is like I'm just being challenged to notice that the water can be changed and notice that I can bomb that wall, I never had to "visualize" the dungeon as an 3D Environment (the exception being Snowhead Temple, where I actually felt it was necessary to stop and actually think about how the dungeon works)
hi Mark. there's an underrated gem called "Crosscode" with a genius-level design that is the closest thing to Zelda I ever found. I thought it would be great if you talked about it. awesome video as always.
The first videos of yours I saw was your zelda boss keys series and that was like 2 years ago, so it's great to see it finally finished with this video, love all your content keep up the great work :)
I love it. Your Boss Keys series brought me here and I'm glad to see the lessons communing. đ
This really reminded me of the Clockwork Mansion from Dishonored 2...
And Stilton's Manor with all the timejumping
Just had an idea for a future water dungeon:
A large room with a moon in the middle. Push the moon down closer to the floor and the water lowers in the middle and climbs up the sides. Pull the moon up higher to make a central "tower" of the water in the middle. Final step/position is to turn the moon "off" and it flattens out over the whole area.
(thinking about it the moon would be more of a "reverse" moon because of the repulsive energy, but whatever)
Or it could technically also be based around magnetism and liquid magnetic fluids
Make it happen guys!
I'm running a space themed D&D campaign and I'm stealing this idea.
@@MaxMustermann-nl2mk or just keep to the theme of rising/lowering tides.
@@WolfDeity also felt like stealing this for dnd!
Another quality video. Really enjoyed the specific karakuri-esque focus!
One of my favorite videos yet. Thank you yet again for showing me what I love so much about the Zelda games.
Iâd actually like a boss keys episode on the first Darksiders game, since it definitely has very Zelda-like dungeons
This was interesting. I haven't played a Zelda game since Ocarina. I recall the water temple being talked about among my friends as tough. But to us it was just a tough stage in a game, like any other game. Usually the one we consulted with each other about or maybe even had they 1 guy who solved it play through it at our house.
That reminds me of the timed runs we had to do in Goldeneye. One of my friends did the facility timed run for us all.
Itâs always a pleasure to hear you talk about Zelda dungeons, Mark!
Man, puzzle box dungeons are the best kind! I love seeing you breakdown how these dungeons work! Yet another timeless video, keep up the great work!
Ah, I would have loved to hear you talk more about the dungeons of the exploration- and puzzle-focused Oracle of Ages, many of which are indeed terrific Puzzzle Boxes. Such an underrated game. Nobody played it because the console was at the very end of its life.
Always makes me happy when the Oracle games are referenced :)
I'm loving the end screen recommendations, especially because I got to know a lot of spectacular indie games because of you!
Awesome video, Mark! I wasn't sure if you were ever going to release the Zelda Dungeon video, but I'm glad you finally did!
The Lake Bed Temple is my absolute favorite dungeon out of any Zelda game
Now that Tears of the Kingdom has been out for over a month, I would like to share my opinion of the dungeons. Spoilers are ahead!
I was very disappointed with the dungeons in Tears of the Kingdom, and I actually prefer the divine beasts in Breath of the Wild. None of the new dungeons are of the puzzle box style, with the possible exception of the Fire Temple, which involves switching mine cart track layouts in order to reach new places. All of the dungeons follow the same basic lock-and-key structure: Visit a spot that is marked on your map, use the sageâs ability to activate a switch, repeat the process three or four more times, and then fight a boss. Even though each dungeon has a unique theme (as opposed to the sameness of the divine beasts), I care more about gameplay than aesthetics, and the dungeons in Tears of the Kingdom fall flat.
Unfortunately, I donât think that puzzle box dungeons are very suitable for a free-form open ended game like Breath of the Wild or Tears of the Kingdom. Link simply has too many abilities that could easily be used in order to circumvent the puzzle elements. Imagine completing the Water Temple (Ocarina of Time) or the Sandship (Skyward Sword) with a full arsenal of abilities like climbing, Ascend, Recall, Travel Medallions, and Zonai Devices. Sure, the game could disable the use of certain abilities within dungeons (like in the shrines), but imposing limitations on the player seems contrary to the spirit of the open world Zelda games.
I waited six years for Tears of the Kingdom and was thoroughly disappointed by its dungeons. Iâm not very optimistic about future Zelda dungeons.
Very beautiful video. I love the principles. In the end, those are my favorite Dungeons in the franchise.
Y'know, if this just became a Zelda/Boss Keys channel I would be totally on board with that. This is some of my favorite content on youtube.
The real boss is Mark himself. Someone craft a dungeon for him using his graph layouts.
I too enjoy the water temple in Ocarina of Time. I'm so happy to see another defender.
My god! Itâs finally here! Iâve watched all of Boss Keys waiting for this one.
Another banger of a video, Mark. You really are my favourite CZcamsr right now. Top quality every time.
it's crazy how even if you try and describe zelda dungeons, there's so many exceptions. like, how in the water temple and many other dungeons, you have to go to a specific room to change the dungeon around, but in botw, you can do it from anywhere in the dungeon. they're all so creative.
whoops you said that in the video lmao
Metroid Prime 2 was pretty close to puzzle-box dungeons with the unique (yet similar) take on puzzle-solving through Aether and Dark Aether.
A wonderful way to celebrate the one million subscriber milestone and a nice cap-off to Boss Keys as a whole. They are not always my favorite, but the puzzle box dungeons are easily the most memorable dungeons from Zelda.
Your endscreen recommendation idea is so good. I would love to see more creators doing something similarly productive with the time & space.
Mark: You can't brute force your way through with trial and error.
Me: Hold my lon lon milk
Arin Hanson: "Check _this_ out! đ"
Ocarina and Majora's had the best dungeons. I was surprised when the Great Bay temple was a bigger pain in the neck than the water temple. But I think that the gratification of getting past a hard temple is part of why Zelda is so great to me. I always say this of course but I had no issues with Skyward Sword. I loved everything about the dungeons.
I love these videos, so glad to see more analysis of Zelda's uniquely frustrating dungeons!!
Great video!!! Thanks so much for the always-exceptional quality, GMT!
Even though it's not a puzzle, Dark Soul's world layout hits the same type of spacial reasoning part of my brain. Especially before you get the lord vessel, chosing the right path can save SO much time or avoids difficult encounters.
I would love to see an analysis of the puzzle design in the Myst series. I feel like the puzzles in those games have a similar âpuzzle boxâ design, but also use the playerâs knowledge of the story and world, particularly in the second game, Riven.
These videos are fantastic. Even people who arenât really into gaming can learn much from them. Thereâs a special way of thinking in video game logic, for lack of a better term, that can shift your perspective on the world.
Very good video!
It was already pretty clear from the previous Zelda Boss Keys episode that these "puzzle box" dungeons where your favourites. But I'm glad you still brought a nuance at the end. While there is definitely a lot to be appreciated from them, they are just like puzzle games in general: not for everyone. For example, I played Snakebird recently and loved it, but I won't recommend it to some people because I simply know they would hate it.
I got my mom to play Breath of the Wild, and while she really loved the game, she HATED every single Divine Beast and I even had to complete a few for her myself. Also, while I now love these puzzle box dungeons just as much as you, I remember that, as a kid, all your favourite ones where the ones I liked the less; the Lakebed Temple in Twilight Princess even made me drop the game because I couldn't complete it.
I'm really surprised you haven't covered CrossCode yet. The dungeons in that game definitely scratch the same devious puzzly dungeon itch that zelda does
I can't think of any dungeons in that game that count as Puzzle-box Dungeons. Regardless, the room-to-room puzzles are still very much enjoyable enough to carry it.
The water temple in ocarina literally broke me when I was a kid đ¤. I think it took me a week lol.
Finally! Thanks for making the video Mark.
Great breakdown of my favourite part of any action adventure game. I'd say the that 'Hob' is a great example of a game that's whole world is a big puzzle box dungeon. It's not too long either, so I still boot it up every so often and try to forget the layout and experience it again.
I actually forgot you can move the dungeons in BOTW. I would remember at some point for all of them accept the bird one. The fact that all the puzzles could be solved without moving the wings was cool to me.
7:18 Yeah but the water temple on Ocarina of Time is kind of a sequence of chambers that rotates. If you want to access a room that you can only access pressing the first switch but you are on the rooms you can only access with the second switch, you have to do all the rooms until you get to press the third switch that restart the whole process again. It's not that the layout of the temple is terrible, it's that you should unlock a "reset switch" after you finish the first cycle of rising and lowering the water level on an accesible area to reduce the mind-numbing task of doing the whole rooms again if you are not completely aware of the temple's layout. The puzzles are clever but they stop being fun when the execution is boring.
I already forgot everything about the video but I did play Carto afterwards and it is very clever and charming, thank you!
These are my favourite dungeons. More dungeon-spanning puzzles, please.
I'd love to hear Mark's thoughts on my personal favorite Zelda Game: Okami
Okami is an excellent Zelda entry! Capcom really knocked it out of the park with their fourth stab at the series.
Though personally I never found the dungeons to be as good in Okami. The music, visuals, and fields more than make up for it tho.
hahaha i always joked to friends that my 4th favorite Zelda game was Okami. I'd also tell them it was the "Best 3D Zelda game from 2006 where you control a Wolf", which sounds oddly specific until you realize Twilight Princess also came out that year =P
(8:30 - 8:47) But in the case of BOTW the puzzle can be resolve with diferent methods with the tools you have, for example, instead of rotating the body of the dungeon, you can use Stasis to make the metal build momentum, place Link in the tail and wait for the object to bounce.;
Brilliant video! I like your scientific approach and the examples you selected, and I fully agree to your opinion the a good mixture of different dungeon types is key to a great Zelda game. Keep on doing your great work!
This explains why i loved the oot water temple so much. The moving pieces and movement are the puzzle itself. I find these the most rewarding and remind me of the ah ha moments from games like portal
When it comes to hints in puzzles they should
1. Be optional and it shouldn't be like: you are on a puzzle for a minute and now the game ask you if you need help
2. Actually useful and not tell the absolute obvious. Not what the player probably already has figured out
Actually I think twilight princess did this one right, I particularly remember actively asking midna for advice in some tricky parts and she would apropietely react to what I've done so far and sounded like she was legitimately trying to figure out the puzzle as much as I was.
Strangely enough, Spirit Tracks is an example of this done well. Aside from the first dungeon anyways. I know it's not a puzzle box, just saying.
My favorite one is in the Ice Temple where they are optional portraits hinting at the patern of the bells (which I somehow missed in my first playthrough and was stumped for hours. That wasn't fun).
I've realized that puzzle design and difficult 2D "jumping" games are strangely similar. Celeste for starters, offers optional stuff, as Mark suggests. They're all about thinking about things in a wider way-- and understanding the mechanics behind the "puzzle". Maybe I could say it's Game Design 101, but they feel too similar, in my opinion
Hints should absolutely be optional, but I don't think they have to be time gated. Certainly a timer can countdown to when the game will begin actively offering hints (ideally an offer that can be declined), but if a player really does want a hint from the very first moment they enter a room, I don't think the game should withhold that information.
Likewise, while hints should start out vague, I think it's perfectly okay for them to get more and more exact if the player asks for multiple hints, with the final "hint" even outright being the solution spelled out plain. The idea of hints, after all, should be to make the game as openly accessible as possible, while it should be up to the player to decide how much if at all to lean on those crutches.
â@@EmeralBookwise That will be the same as the golden monkey/checkpoint from DK/Kooka doing the level for you, or an option to ask the boss to drop dead "pleeeeaaaase". That's absolute bullshit XD. You don't need "hints", you need logical puzzles/dungeons that comunicate clearly how they operate, what is interractable or not, etc.
Or, at the very least, make all this crap definitely desactivable (as in: you can't undo it) before starting the game, so they don't even suggest it to you. I feel pain in my heart each time the game asks me if I want to not play the game/lower difficulty because I died too many times or I'm taking too much time to do something -I know I'm bad and slow, just let me do things at my pace for fucks sake! Stop pressuring meeeeeeeeeee!!!!
Still better than adaptative difficulty though. At least you have THE CHOICE to refuse being patronized.
My favourite dungeon of all time has always been the sandship. It feels so compact but it has so many interesting things you can do, mixed with the time manipulation mecanics it's very unique.
I love every single one of your videos! Keep up the amazing work!!
Great video! I love Zelda, and itâs great to hear this analysis of the series.
I wonder what would happen if there was a metroidvania where it was effectively a giant puzzle box dungeon.
Edit: I would like more boss keys episodes but I'm not sure what could be talked about in a hypothetical new episode.
Thinking of complex roundabout levels: have you had any chance to check out the level designs of the Gaucameele games or the later half of The Messemger?
I honestly thought you forgot about making that follow-up video to Boss Keys, very excited to see it finished!
Great video. Environmental puzzles like these are so fascinating, but the one that ALWAYS tops my list is the Research Hall in Bloodborne.
9:30 - Thank you for that jab. Nintendo, and to a lesser extent Sony, really have a bad habit of including all kinds of annoying gimmicks at the expense of both less able players and the enjoyability of their games.
Captain Toad's Treasure Trove has something similar, albeit smaller and easier.
I love that in the time it took me to catch up on these videos, Mark's sub count went from 1M to 1.01M. So rare and awesome to see someone with, literally, millions of followers that actually deserves them for creating high quality educational content! Cheers!
omg, I can't believe we finally have the culmination of Boss Keys.
Thank you for bringing this to the world, Mark!
This is what happens when you build for accessibility, you lower the skill ceiling in order to help the skill floor, its a trade off that can't really be fixed without remaking the levels for each difficulty, which would be ridiculous
The Water Temple is the best dungeon in Ocarina of Time, and is one of the best in the series in my opinion
Yeah, I know it's super annoying to have to keep going to the menu to swap your boots, it's a huge oversight on Nintendo's part, I'll never defend this one aspect. But I feel like people let that skew their perception of the dungeon far too much, their experience with the dungeon is too far muddled with their experience messing around in the menu so many times, which isn't the Water Temple's fault.
My boy water temple doesn't deserve the hate it gets, blame the boots not the temple :(
Yep. That should really be a broader complaint than the water temple since you regularly have to pause to swap weapons and such using the same slow system.
But more importantly, it was fixed in the 3ds remake/master. Boots are just a button now. Don't ask me how unequiping them makes you float tho.
90% of the hate for the Water Temple is caused by user error from people ignoring a cutscene, missing a hint, then missing a key and having to redo half the level later with no idea what they did wrong.
agreed. The Stone Tower Temple in MM is equally complex, but is not hated because every tool you need can be used with a button. Imagine having to go to the menu every time you wanted to change forms or use the light arrows?
I love that Mark basically made a video to tell you why the water temple is great and people donât get it. I think the issue to me is that itâs surrounded by really bad dungeons. Every other dungeon in ocarina of time just kinda plays itself so you arenât trained to think about dungeon structure. In a game where you think about dungeon layout in most of the dungeons it wouldnât be out of place at all. Plus you know itâs the case where people decide that if the internet says it itâs gotta be true and itâs the canon opinion that we hate the water temple so people will say it no matter what.
Completely agreed.
I feel like your Zelda videos are some of the best you put out and this is no exception! These type of dungeons stumped me as a kid but I really grew to appreciate them more as I got older. I feel like the 3DS Water Temple struck the right balance between challenge but player convenience as well. Speaking of the Water Temple, there was a kid in my class in the early 00's who needed help getting through the Water Temple, so I had to explain the logic behind it (as best I could at 9 years old!). That conversation ended up creating a friendship that's endured to this day! Perhaps the design of the level is confusing, but it had a good consequence for me!
This is what I needed to see today as I am writing up design documents for my Zelda-esque game.