Graders Says NO CARD CLEANING - Here's Why They're WRONG!
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- čas přidán 10. 05. 2024
- Today we talk about:
Card Cleaning
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There is not a single damn person out there NOT wiping off a fingerprint before they send it
Exactly
facts
The issue isn’t wiping, but the sprays.
Not everyone opens cards like a caveman
And if they say they don't there lying
If the grading companies will dock you for smudges and fingerprints why would we not clean our cards?
Exactly!
Well they also been giving a crap load of psa 10s out for cards that aren't even close to being centered
Good point....isn't that "altering" the card? And Topps and company love to "alter" cards all the time that's why they come in packs all messed up. When we buy packs we expect them to be as they meant to be and that's in MINT condition, but they "alter" them by not controlling their manufacturing process
Bad QC is not the maker altering the card. Using a cloth to clean the faces of a card is different than using a spray to help clean the card.
Just use a microfiber cloth rather than add a liquid to your card surface.
I agree 100% with T Pot! As long as it’s not altered or changed in any way. Cleaning is must have
How does cleaning not change it?
Dear Mr. nickcpa, it seems that donning my Sunday best and lathering on the finest 2-dollar hair gel gives me the illusion of transformation. Alas, deep down inside, I cannot help but acknowledge that underneath this polished exterior lies the same untamed beast! Oh, the deceptive power of grooming rituals indeed!
@nickcpa6113 The cleaning is not adding or subtracting to the card, it is just getting crud off of it. We used hose to get gum stains off cards, this seems similar. What I take issue with is using polish to fill in divots or pressing the card to sharpen the corners, that is alteration. That can be detected.
PSA is right, if they cannot detect it what are they supposed to do?
I could be wrong, but don't these cleaning kits remove scratches or dents and flatten out cards?
Moot point. Majority of collectors/flippers have been using Kurt”s undetected. PSA WILL NEVER REALLY KNOW so keep on cleaning/polishing/restoring. Kurt is a great guy too helping our collectibles get closer to their true value. People just need something to piss and moan about.
the centering alone makes me wonder how this card received a PSA 10!
I only tune into these weekly to see if Geoff will ever pronounce the first “M” in Wembanyama. Alas, it’s always “WEBanyama”
PSA selling cleaning products opens them up to legal action if they've marked down based on card condition. If you stuff up the cleaning, they dont want to be held liable for stupidity, and you KNOW people will sue regardless.
Wow didn’t recognize Doug for a second without the cap
No cap
Who cares
No way PSA ever endorses or sells card cleaning products. What if someone destroys their expensive card. PSA doesn't want that smoke. Not happening.
Well said. Even SGC in live videos, Peter said they will do a quick courtesy wipe, maybe some dust etc before they encapsulate.
This comparison of cars, comics and art work is a joke. It's known that all those categories accept it and some grading companies offer the cleaning, restoration and pressing.
Restoration and anything outside of a wipe down with a microfiber cloth is NOT allowed per the graders and not sure why any of this is an actual topic outside of the fact you need more content and clicks for YT content for them checks.
T-Pot, there is ZERO conflict of interest.
there's a difference between saying nothing about it vs coming out against it. they endorse card savers and there are times people destroy their card putting it in the card savers
O they will . If the market shifts..trust they won't miss out
@@user-zf9jd8bv1w I don't think they have a reason to, prior to Kurt's and other cleaning products, and after those are gone PSA will do just fine. Too much liability on a card they could damage when cleaning. Not worth the headache IMO, but like anything to speculate on...time will tell.
I literally use Kurt’s on everything I sub…have never destroyed a card and trust me u can turn a 9 to 10 with Kurt’s
T-Pot hit the nail on the head: Altering, Cleaning, and Restoring are all completely different things - and the hobby is indeed conflating them and using the terms like synonyms. Intention also matters IMO. If you’re trying to preserve something, that’s one thing. If you’re trying to cheat or manipulate something, that’s different. Both can be chasing better grades. But only one involves deception.
cleaning a card and basically sanding the clear coat layer off of a card are two different things. PSA usually gems up the cards I've sent in with surface issues anyways, so who needs Kurts card care.
I did a video sharing vintage example of cleaning vs pack fresh. Cleaned card stain returned after years in slab. PSA didn’t catch it the cleaning, but now it’s way over graded. Beware of cleaning solutions over 5-10 years in card.
11:11 Great year as well and agree 1996 Kobe's year and I've been loaded up on Jaren Jackson Jr
Thank you! I have been taking the stance of "preserve and conserve" these pieces of "fine art" and people have been on my case. It is good to hear a similar opinion.
Just cleaning a card is fine imo. If it alters the card and gets rid of scratches then it's a problem.
Don't people use these card care kits to remove scratches and dents?
@@ryanbitter809 If you go to Kurt’s Card Care YT Channel he’s doing A LOT more than removing scratches. Think he claims to have figured out a way to remove creases on vintage cards by soaking them. It’s pretty clear what it is, but people don’t want to admit it
@@ryanbitter809it won’t remove print lines really, but it’ll help with micro scratches…I just don’t see why people have to accept scratched up cards from panini…people spend hard earned money and expect quality control…if u don’t want people to use it then panini needs to spend more money on not sending out bs cards…you know as well as I do, a Lucas van ness will be in perfect shape but the stroud will have a print line running across the bottom 😤
They cannot sell cleaning product they would be setting themselves up for lawsuit
Does anyone know the long term affects of these card cleaning "juices" chemicals on cards ? Will the card in the slab be disintegrated in a few years ?
I don't think anyone knows what the future holds for these cards, these cleaning kits haven't been around long enough. But in other collecting areas- take, for instance, coin collecting- substances used to clean coins can cause issues on the coin while in the holder later on. If it can happen to a material like metal, I think it is likely for a material like cardboard....
The only thing you need to clean your cards are gloves, a microfiber cloth , and a steady hand. I’ve never needed moisture of any sort to clean my cards.
You must never owned vintage cards with any corner bends. Kurt does all natural on mantle and Ruth cards gotten huge upgrades.
This is why handle the cards properly is so important. It is still a form of tampering.
There is a big difference between wiping a card with a cloth to clean fingerprints or smudges and chemically cleaning a card.
Kurt is one of the best people to benefit off this buzz. So genuine in motives and desires for what his products are able to do.
Not putting the ingredients on your product so buyers know what they are putting on their card is anything but genuine.
Always love the sports talk videos, Congrats on all u do😊
I clean my cards and never had an issue. If you get one back altered from cleaning cause you did an improper job then crack it re-clean and submit again. I can see them seeing residue and docking but for them to say altered is a little bs when I've had cards that kids have drawn on that they grade just fine and that's more "altering" than someone cleaning off fingerprints.
I would like to see PSA give us better details of why the card graded the way it did.
It should be illegal for PSA to upcharge you based on the value of the card. It gives them every reason in the world to make a card a 10 when they shouldn't, and the fact people still consider them #1 is laughable to people that's been in the hobby for over 50 yrs. like me. Big investors have a lot of money invested in their PSA cards so they will continue to promote the company. Look at 5 different PSA 10's of the same card. You will almost always see huge differences. They DO NOT have consistent grading.
Agree here…also just wait for those approved PSA cleaning solution…only available through psa as Jeff said. It’s all about $$$$
But they give me easy 10s..
Amen. It's criminal. The hobby as a whole needs to be smarter and not give in.
I'm sure they are rookie graders and veteran graders, they are always levels to this shit, different graders grade 100 dollar cards and 10,000 dollar cards fellas
Desmond Ridder is now an Arizona Cardinal, which makes Ridder a 4X investment than Kyler Murray.
I agree with T-Pot. 80s Basketball stickers can be cleaned using non-abrasive cloth to remove wax. Wax wasn't intended by Fleer to be part of the cards.
Geoff, will you be stocking card cleaning/restoration products on the shelves in Atlanta? If PSA's not taking you up on your idea, will you do it?
Cards HQ should have a Kurt's Card Care display!😂
Why? They'll have HQ Card Care by summer.
@@bobbyboucher1096faccttttssssss. All this is is geoff putting out feelers on how Lenient his user base is with restoring and cleaning, so when the Cards HQ repair kit drops, it’ll already have momentum. Another note, as a businessman… geoff should know better than to ever think that PSA would endorse let alone produce, market, sell there own… that’s a hornets nest waiting to happen…
There literally isn’t a single collector that thinks just wiping down a card is an issue. The issue is using chemicals on a card.
That guy in the background at the start is taking a shit to show what he thinks of Cards HQ
What i think Cards HQ did wrong about their store and how their cards are displayed is proof in this video and it’s failing.. Not the company I’m happy for Geoff and Cards HQ, but what’s with all these display cases and cards being displayed on the GROUND! Poor guys backs going go out looking at your inventory with all those horrible display cases.. Move your inventory up for display in view? Who the heavens designed this layout? Your inventory is on the GROUND! The store is pretty fire though.
On the street they call that a 'spite shit'
No problem with it at all, and glad my Kurts Card Care just showed up the other day, because he's probably about to get swamped with orders.
PSA upcharging people because their cards get high grades is the real crime.
I have used different products over the years to get out scratches and have had great results with grades after removing scratches.
Wipe off dust and clear off fingerprints. Move on. The issue is people want to clean, "fill in" blemishes, try and remove "print lines" etc etc. That's not cleaning. Annoying to see sellers tell potential buyers that "the line or scratch would probably clean up" then they sell it for a premium.
PSA will grade down if you have fingerprints or dust on a card. As much as they charge, you better believe people will clean cards...as they should be able to. How else do they expect fingerprints (for example) to come off?
I’m not okay with cleaning or soaking cards using chemicals. You wouldn’t accept buying valuable art that’s been restored by a CZcamsr in their garage, would you? That’s ridiculous,imo.
It depends, because art is restored all the time, and sometimes the best in world at that do it on CZcams, so it depends on who. Since I would consider cards art & collectible like art I am ok with in reason!
I bought Kurts card care and use it daily. I’m not going to stop using it to clean my cards.
100%!
Will u mention it to people when u sell them these cards?
Cleaning should be allowed. Some of these cards (pack fresh) can have smudges on it. A quick clean can make it pop. I prep cards for Psa for every submission
For ultra modern cards you should be able to use cleaning substance Topps & Panini overprint cards & come with scratches. I also agree PSA needs to start offering cleaning service, just like comic book grading over at CGC they allow pressing & cleaning before being graded. Now what I have a problem is vintage high end RC being restored. Having them cleaned might cause a problem maybe in years the defect might return & now it sits in a slab with a high grade.
What people are missing is just because the case says its a gem mint 10 doesn't mean it is. Would there be so much uproar if it came back a 9 like it should have with that horrible centering. Only a blind person would think its gem mint.
Great point. In vintage cards, it feels like it more about eye appeal anyway.
I have a 1975 topps pete rose graded psa 8. Easily a 9 even better than 10s I've seen of modern cards. They need to purge all those graders that throw out 10s I guess to make people happy but if I'm buying a anything that's graded a 10 it better look like a 10 should. I think they give out all these 10s to these big card shops/companies because of the large amount of cards they submit. It's making 10s in my eyes devalued. 1 psa 10 that actually looks like one should sell alot higher than 1 that looks like it should've been a 9 or in some cases I've seen look worse than psa 8s I've seen.
Yup: Time to call bullshit. I've 33 years experience in The Hobby, am an Artist, used to work in reprographics, and I can tell you this: I've examined a lot of those so called 10 cards; and sorry, but they are Far from perfect, e.g., Storage fatigue on bottoms and sides, small defects on surfaces, etc... Then, seems some cards receive shall we say...' preferential consideration. So no, best to trust your Hobby instincts on what you are buying.
Great idea about an approved PSA cleaning solution !
I believe you have 100% misinterpreted PSA's quote. They said they do not approve if there are products "being added to the surface of the card"..... When using cleaning products they are added to the surface and then immediately taken away by the person doing the cleaning and/or removed through the act of cleaning it. I infer from all this that they are against products being added and LEFT on the cards to improve the appearance or fill in problems. Moreover, they also didn't say they were against cleaning or restoration. They said they were against products being added to the card - so taking that literally and at full face value, I will continue cleaning and wiping off my cards before sending to PSA. This changes absolutely nothing.
agreed.
I'm curious (and apologies if this isn't the right place, but what better audience to ask?) When looking at pricing cards based on recent sales, and this applies more to lower end cards, do you factor in what you're paying for shipping? For example, a card may sell consistently at $50 and almost every purchase also comes with a $15 shipping tag. If you were selling this card, say in an online marketplace with direct pickup, would you sell the card for $65 assuming a large market of folks are paying that given sites like eBay and Whatnot are so popular? Or does this highlight the fact that buying lower end cards online is a bad idea?
I completely agree with you guys 💯👍🏽
Kurts card care is amaazing stuff. His videos teach you well how to turn water into wine. I was able to take a Joe Burrow Silver that had the adhesive left from a sticker on it, polish it off after a few sessions of cleaning, submit the card and get a 9 on the card. PSA needs to define altering the way Teapot said. If you can restore a card, you should be able to do it. PSA needs to let it go or define it properly
In coins they dock you a grade or 2 or 4 if the coin is considered cleaned due to alteration and abrasion. PSA will probably introduce an altered-cleaned grade.
Can someone explain to me why the card being worth more means psa can charge more? They should handle every part the same. But for them to charge hundreds of dollars if not thousands just because the card is more valuable tells me they don't take care of my cards
They charge more and give higher grades for $. I have seen some cards recently that wouldnt get an 8 from most companies and PSA is making them 10's
They claim its an insurance thing but its a rort
Permitted by who? If graders can't detect it, there's no "permitting" involved.
It's all for PR. Nothing is changing because they can't change it even if they wanted to.
PSA's sister company, PCGS, offers a conservation service for coins. It is a paid service. However, they don't allow customers to "clean" their coins. I wonder if a similiar professional conservation service for cards will be next. It would definitely be a new revenue stream for the grading companies. Cheers!
PSA = Please Submit Again. Bad news for newer collectors, this stuff has been going on for decades and 100's of thousands if not more cards have been altered in various ways to get better grades.
Agree cards are art. There is nothing wrong with cleaning to remove fingerprints and smudges. This happens in the world of art.
Also if cleaning products are not detected while grading, then the card was NOT altered. The purpose of collecting is to hold on to precious artwork that is authentic and looks good.
Why wouldn’t you clean your cards? I’ve pulled cards that have had like a dust or something on them, really noticeable with black cards. So why would you not take that off or clean your cards.
Good Afternoon,
FOR ALL OF THE INDIVIDUALS USING CLEANING PRODUCTS - I KNOW WELL AND GOOD THAT YOU ARE REVEALING THE FACT THAT THE CARDS WERE CLEANED,..... TO YOUR BUYERS.
Thank you.
Why? the grading companies already graded the cards. What is there to disclose? They already deemed the card wasn’t altered
Good Evening,
"Presently", PSA considers the use of card cleaners as IMPROPER. And of course PSA did not detect the use of a cleaner so the card has to be slabbed as such. But since the "users of cleaning products" feel that there is no problem/harm in using the cleaning products, please feel free in NOTIFYING the buyers that the cleaning product was used. THERE SHOULD BE NOTHING WRONG IN DISCLOSING IT.
Thank you.
@@ryanra44
Kurt’s is a solid dude and he’s got a great product. Unless they start packaging these and clean room, we’re going to end up with Cheeto fingerprints
In numismatics (coin/currency/note collecting), cleaning is also accepted as long as nobody can tell it was cleaned... and/or it will grade at one of the large grading companies...
Now, if you try to clean a coin/note and it's detectable, you've really screwed the pooch though.
PSA could run their own analytic chemistry and/or gas chromatography on products in making a decision to endorse some cleaning solutions.
7:12 I agree but no 2 PSA getting product's.
They need a $10 price for the month
i come from the GPK(Garbage Pail Kids) world, and its always been a hushed thing about removing the wax/gum residue off cards, so i say anything that can make the card look better that falls within the spoken guidelines that you guys mentioned should be A OK and should be widely accepted.
....you can also view it the same as in the GI Joe collecting world, that its A OK to replace O-Rings due to age and them falling apart. why have an immaculatae figure, that has fallen apart when you can replace the o ring and make it brand new once again with no hard to the figure itself. just saying. food for thought.
Cleaning with a cloth isn't the same as adding a substance to fake out the system or dipping a card into a "solution" to help work edges, bends, and corners.
People that are saying that PSA can’t sell it because it open them up to lawsuits are wrong. All cleaning supplies have disclaimers and warnings. If a card gets ruined first off, they have major insurance and corporate lawyers. Second, it would be extremely hard to prove and fight it with all the disclaimers and warnings. PSA would win 99.9% of the fights and unless it’s a 100k plus card ruined then it won’t even matter.
It needs to be defined, what you mean by cleaning: The simple act of using a nice clean cloth or going beyond the nice clean cloth. But Mr. Wilson, do you know anything about cleaning and coin and stamp collecting? (I collect all three subjects)
P. S.
Cards are not works of art like the great masters. Trading cards are pictures glued to worthless cardboard, not stock certificates, or bank notes, that have real value.
If that’s going to be a stopping point for PSA, people either need to start using SGC/BGS/etc or stop buying Panini until they pretend to give af quality control.
No where in the PSA grading reveal does anyone mention that Kurt's Card Products were used on this particular card. There definitely was a plug for Kurt's Cards. Ironically, if you watch the PSA grading video (which offered more insight into PSA...I didn't know they had a grader's lounge) you can see an individual with black black gloves wipping the card down in the PSA office before it went to the grader.
Could you do a video regarding "so called" error cards on EBay. There are so many scammers selling junk cards for thousands for the dumbest reasons. So wrong.
TECHNICALLY, when a card corner is dinged or surface scratched by the owner (like many of my 90's cards I collected as a kid that are beat up), the card should be considered ALTERED by these grading companies - just not in a "positive" way. Restoring a corner (ie. using a tool to fix) or cleaning/buffing a card isn't any different than the alteration made to damage the card in the first place. I assume that there are few cards that can be altered back to their original (or MINT) state so if someone wants to take that risk than by all means go ahead.
In comic books, a "Clean and Press" is not seen as "restoration" nor "alteration" and in fact the comic book's top grading company offers that service to submitters. So, with trading cards, and CGC does grade comics and cards, it's going to be accepted as well.
that is COMIC BOOKS !
If anything, Kurt’s cleaning products would keep PSA going strong for years. They could easily use him to their advantage but knowing them, their ego inevitably isn’t having it lol
Only a matter of time before cards hq has their own line of card altering juices and wax
Does a grading company do an internal QA where they periodically give their graders trimmed or colored cards as a check n their graders?
2017 class, Tatum, Mitchell, Markanen, Adebayo, Fox, Allen, white and OG
You can clean and press old comics and CGC (top comic grading) accepts them just fine, it's the same thing
I kind of agree with Geoff on the cleaning but my reasoning is different. There is an inherent risk of damaging the card when you use a product so its a risk that the owner of the card has to decide to take. Imagine if when NorCal Sports Cards used Kurt's Card Care it damaged the card, they would not be shouting them out in a good way. So it was a risk they took so that is why I feel like it should be ok. Thoughts?
Every other word in this debate was "controversial".....😢
I’m patiently waiting for the PSA branded micro fiber cloth as one of their giveaway items.
Yes it is art. Especially the waves and kaboom type cards
😂😂😂
Interesting that it seems trimming is not always caught by the grading companies?
7:10
I’ve submitted numerous cards to PSA after I’ve used Meguiar’s Scratch X 2.0 and PSA has never sent it back as altered. 👍😂
PSA should offer cleaning before they grade??
Anything other than a microfiber cloth is restoring or altering your card. Cleaning the way it’s done “professionally” is absolutely altering the card. So psa can give it an altered 10.
11:12 - Hey, you gonna share that Chick-fil-A?
Ya, I will have to disagree on this topic...
I wouldn't buy a card if it is disclosed of being cleaned with a solution, soaking, or trimmed.
I'm surprised with you guys being in Atlanta that you do not talk about OTE. There are a lot of players going to the NBA that were either former or current OTE players. Some already in the NBA like the Thompson Twins, and Dominic Barlow. And this draft you may see 2 more former OTE players going in the top 5 of the draft, namely Alex Sarr and Rob Dillingham.
You can't differentiate between alteration and restoration based upon the discussion at 4:00 mark. How is adding water ok but polishing isn't? I have no problem with any of it. You clean your car before you trade it in or sale, same with your home. If you had a piece of fine art that needed to be cleaned, you would do it.
I agree with T-pot’s assessment on it. A lot of talk about the standards of the art world and how cards should be same way. I think what’s going on is the standard is being taken from the coin collecting world. In that hobby anything that alters the surface of a coin (including detected cleaning) is frowned upon and hurts the value and grade.
Agree with Geoff. PSA should take some time to reevaluate the culture behind their standards for cleaning cards.
When you're pulling out sprays and tools to fix imperfections..... then sending it off pawning it off as the card not even being messed with. That's wrong. Whatever terminology people want to use to justify altering a card. "Restoring, "Altering" You're changing the card from it's original condition. What I find is the people who don't find a problem with it are the guys who are in the flipping business to begin with. People need to be transparent, but all people care about is getting that quick cash. It's a joke.
I have not been ablle to wipe off 90's refractor cards that had gunk residue on them, they were 100% not manufactured like that, it happened with time, one spray of kurts card care solution and wipe got it all off without any pressure. So this is altering the card? Give me a break!
@@scuffedmarshmello9334 You have completely missed the point. I'm glad those products are helping you out.
So I am guilty of NOT wiping down fingerprints on a card before sending it in to be graded. And it was a holo at that. Yup I screwed up. Because of that I received a 7 grade on the card. I believe it probably would have been higher if I wiped it down.
If PSA had exclusive rights to the cleaning supplies/products I bet they would be totally onboard with it; but, since they don’t control the cleaning card market they won’t endorse it. A bit hypocritical if you ask me.
Kurt is a great human and just wants to help people restore their cards to their natural best selves. PSA should look to partner with him not try to shut him down
IMO, it's not a grail card if you sell it right away. I think real collectors keep their grail cards forever or until they decide to liquidate their entire collection many years down the line.
If the card companies won’t guarantee 100 percent quality out of the pack, then I think the customer should be able to clean the card as long as the card isn’t being altered.
PSA could even offer Cleaning Services so they could “control” how much is being done.
PSA won't endorse a product due to the fact that there will be people who don't apply it correctly and end up damaging and decreasing the grade. With that decreasing the value. And I can pretty much guarantee many of those people will blame the product as well as blame PSA since there name would be attached to it. I think they see more negative coming from it than it's worth.. They are doing the right thing by stating they don't endorse customers using cleaning products.. they know that people clean cards and if done properly with the right products it they can't tell.. OR CAN THEY???
2:20 I agree 👍 💯
Why doesn’t PSA or other grading companies add in a step in their grading process for a few bucks or whatever and they clean it up before they grade it so there is no controversy
So...no one's going to mention there were practically no customers in Cards HQ for the 22 minute duration of the video.
ThAt’S NoT CoNtEnT
probably closing down tomorrow
I saw like 10 different people.
All the will Griers must have sold out
What about SGC? What’s their take?
no problem with wiping a fingerprint off but there is absolutely no comparison worth making to art restoration techniques when almost everything they do in that world would be a nuclear option for trading cards and other collectibles. if they can't detect the alteration that is being done to it then fine, but if they can detect it, under no circumstances should we be saying that shouldn't be attributed in the grade. that's nothing like the art world where, for starters, you don't slab a piece of fine art and put a number grade on it, and if you take it out of that slab it can immediately lose almost all of its value.
Psa should clean before grading
Cleaning should be ok. But honestly I love raw cards and comics as they are found. I have old comics that I wouldn’t touch because it shows its true life and the love it was shown during its life. A card or comic that is loved by its owner is going to show it.
Cleaning should be allowed to remove print lines and Dust Bunnies,I have cleaned cards and gotten regrades to better Grades,Sport Cards are pieces of Art,if Mickey Mantle 9.5 12.5 Million dollar card was a Chrome Card Cracked out,Cleaned and sent back in to receive a 10 that card would be worth 20 Million or more.
Boycott PSA until they allow or test out any of the products out there. Once they see a drop in grading submissions I'm sure they'll change their mind.