How bad is AMD at Ray Tracing?
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- čas přidán 22. 04. 2024
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How exactly do AMD and Nvidia stack up at ray tracing? I often see people say AMD is one generation behind Nvidia, and claim the RX 7900 XTX roughly matches the RTX 3090 in RT performance. But the reality is a lot more complicated.
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They offered me 100 bucks for my 2070 super :D
@@rck-lp7389 LOL daylight robbery. The 2070 Super is still a very good card especially at 1080p.
@@rck-lp7389 they offer me 70$ for my 6700xt they are crazy
@@rck-lp7389 400 for a 3090 🤡
Yeah, just fyi you can easily get 2-3x what Jawa offers for your used gpu's on FB marketplace.
People just don't understand the render pipeline, and frame times, and the math behind compute distribution. If only 20% of a games frame time is time spend on calculating RT, and 80% is still rasterization (F1 Racing), then Nvidia's RT compute being 2x as strong as AMD will only lead to a 1.1x increase in frame rate. like +10%.
If a game is 80% RT compute, and 20% rasterization (Cyberpunk 2077), then a 2x increase to the RT compute will lead a 1.66x speedup. 66%.
That 80% RT compute time is being cut in half. If a frame takes 10+40 milliseconds for AMD, it'll only take 10+20 milliseconds for Nvidia. 50ms vs 30ms. 20 FPS 33 FPS. A 1.66x speedup, or 66%. So Nvidia can be anywhere from 10% to 66% faster if you compare GPUs with the same core count. 7800xt vs 4070ti for example.
🎉
It's really all about HDR and contrast. You're better off buying an oled display than an overpriced GPU.
@@proprietarycurez8463 How tf is HDR related to GPUs and RT in this context ? Are you drunk ?
@@DragonOfTheMortalKombat his username really shows that hes a biased amd fanboy
@@DragonOfTheMortalKombatyes he is drunk take it from me.
It looks like the AMD hardware can handle less ray bounces or less actual rays. I wish we had a way of knowing what the difference is when setting RT from low to high in each of these games.
I think it's not only ray bounces but in case of these Nvidia sponsored titles NV is pushing a different algorithm called path-tracing. This is different form ray-tracing. It's like they don't want to be compared to AMD but rather escaping the comparison by introducing something new (path tracing - even though clearly the industry is not ready for that). The truth is, that to really enjoy path tracing, at decent frame rates, you need 4080+, which is too high for most people. Me for example even though it's not a problem to afford that I would never buy HW from that tier because I'm too well acquainted with finances and value depreciation to warrant such carelessness. That's BTW also the reason why most people will remain poor through most of their lives :) Let's just settle, that path tracing on 4060-4070 is a no go.
Remember PhysX cards? Maybe we could go back to add-in cards but now for ray tracing?
Honestly, when AMD announced they were going multi chip, I thought "why not make the RT its own chiplet?"
One word. Latency
That sounds like it would be a nightmare to implement correctly, almost impossible
@@Diegorskysp17yeah but that adds complexity and latency.
Developers aren't even given the time to do basic optimization by studios. They aren't going to add complicated support for external RT cards to their engines.
Plus the latency over PCIe would probably result in that kind of architecture having worse performance than AMD already has. PhysX cards went away for a reason.
I wish you had tested more exhaustively with titles like Metro Exodus, Control and even path tracing showcases like Portal RT, Quake RT, Minecraft RT. A lot of interested buyers like me would find such comparissons so helpful.
I'd like to see Minecraft RT maxed at 4K
Does Portal RTX even work on AMD? I thought it used to crash or something.
Honestly, what's not already out there for you to know? If you're interested in Feature chasing, your only choice is Nvidia, and always will be.
@@eugkra33 No it used to be a slideshow on the 6000 cards out back then from what I remember. This is why it would be interesting to know how it works now.
Control is such a good RT game. It should always be included
8:21 Alan Wake and Cyberpunk are not dismissed because they are nvidia sponsored titles, they are dismissed because they use nvidia's inhouse tech.
Just ask yourself this question, how much time do you think nvidia spent optimizing their libraries to run well on AMD's hardware?
If you want very heavy ray tracing on a neutral ground you can try Avatar's Unobtanium settings, the 7900XTX falls between the 4070ti and 4080, cf tom's hardware.
*Alan
*NVIDIA
...way to go, AMD fangirl...
Neutral ground on an AMD sponsored game?
This is a brilliant video and perspective. I purchased a 7900xt recently and was curious about this exact thing
same, but i bought it knowing it severely lacked in the RT department, which i really dont care about, it was the card with the best raw performance, which i cared way more for, also the vram :D
I was super happy with my 7900XTX until I played Avatar last December. I didn't and might still not care about RT honestly not sure if my feelings about RT have changed since I got a 4090 recently, just set it up yesterday. You could probably be happy with that XT avoiding Avatar or RT heavy games (no clue if they added an RT toggle or anything). Honestly think that 7900XT fits the 1440P performance most people want, likely don't have to FSR much, a sweet spot between price points.
It's been whatever how many years since Ray Tracing is a thing, and I've never ever once turned it on in any game.
Is a result of having an AMD card?
@levijosephcreates ofc it is😂 raytracing on oled looks so amazing when well implemented, like cyberpunk looks awful without path tracing when you are used to it
My guess, you have mid tier AMD card and you don't play games like control or cyberpunk.
Ray tracing is nice to have in some games, others not so much. It Depends
You're missing out, Path tracing subjectively looks better than rasterization and guess what, you can run it natively with a 4070 close to 60 fps
You make a very valid point. As RT usually isn't worth the perf hit on mid range cards and it took so long to get added to titles I rarely enabled it. Now that I've upgraded to 4K it isn't even a consideration until my next GPU upgrade but yeah, how important is it and what level of RT is targeted? I agree most devs will probably shoot for console-esque RT efffects not showcases but we'll have to wait and see how RT evolves as some more efficiencies might be found down the road. Nice piece, your best video yet. Thumb up.
two more console generations and showcase level RT will be the console norm i'm betings.
I just have one question..........where can I get a Daniel Owen mouse pointer? Seriously I am happy with my MSI RTX 4080 Super Expert and knock on wood no issues with my Intel I9-13900K processor even overclocked.
Once I've tried Pathtracing, I just can't go back even to normal RT. Is just that good and different. Sadly, when you buy AMD now you can't expect competitive (or even good) RT performance.
Let's hope RDNA4 will bring great RT improvements.
lol omfg...
I think it's better to look at RT efficiency to get a gauge, take raster and RT results and look at the percentage loss.
Thanks for the info. I hope you have a great day.
I buy the 7900XTX to do 4K HDR gaming. Even with raster lighting. CP2077 looks amazing. Like others said, I turned on RT to try playing the game, yes the sunbeams and reflections are really nice so I turned on ONLY RT reflections and after a day or 2 of playing, I preferred the higher frame rates since I'm in it for the combat, instead of staring at the scenery.
7900xtx can't achieve constant 60 fps at 4k maxed out rt off without an upscaler. and fsr is obviously inferior compared to dlss. 7900xtx is a product for nobody. can't handle heavy raster without uspcaler to make up for the lack of dlss and can't handle rt in a way similar priced nvidia cards can.
I'm still not sold on RT. It's not worth the performance hit when I can get 120FPS with no upscaling in CP2077 @ 1440p Ultra (7900 XT). I turn it off on all my games that support it. I had someone say to me that "all AMD owners dislike RT, lol" when the reality is that I'm an AMD owner because I don't care about RT (and Nvidia sucks on Linux).
Most games do even less with RT than CP2077 and just hurt performance for almost no visual gain IMO.
@@MoltenPie What are you talking about? 😅😅 7900XTX is faster than 4080S in raster
@@adi6293 I didn't say that it is not.
@@adi6293 not really, especially not if you count 1% lows and DEFINITELY not if you factor in power consumption. Radeon "dips" with way more framerate variability than GeForce.
7900XTX owner. I'll be real. It excells in any RT game that's not Alan Wake 2 or from CDPR. I'm talking always over 60fps at 1440p ultrawide. It is a little annoying that AW2 and CP2077 are always the games used to show raytracing when, like mentioned in the video, they're Nvidia bankrolled. But everything else is fine. Lol
Ita bc those games have the most ray tracing out of all games, it is implemented better in those games
No
@@charizard6969 sure. I wouldn’t say implemented “better” it’s just a more intense form of RT in the form of Path Tracing. And they are tailored specifically to Nvidias hardware due to Nvidia sponsorship. I’m just saying in the many dozens of other raytracing games, XTX is fine and very performant. Even Control from Remedy and Witcher 3 Full RT from CDPR both run pretty well on the XTX. It’s just those 2 path tracing games that really cripple the XTX. But if path tracing is really someone’s thing (as limited as it is) then go the 4080s or 4090. But I’m sure there will be more path tracing to come as well! I’m no fanboy I’ll just take what I can get a good deal on lol
A 7900xtx should be able to run Cyberpunk RT ultra @1440p ultrawide with balanced or maybe even quality xess upscaling.
Yeah but CP2077 and AW2 are pretty good games when it comes to their RT implementation
I think it'd be interesting to show CP2077 with Path Tracing and with the full suite of non-PT RT settings. Especially in a video on top-end cards.
mind if I ask, what is your configuration for rendering videos? like resolution and bitrate
Ray Tracing not being viable even on the top of the line 7900xtx is embarrassing for AMD.
I made the decision to sell my 4090 due to not realising what was causing camera pan judder in games. I figured it out when I put in a 6750xt for testing and noticed the problem disappeared. 😳
I then realised it's these so called Gsync compatible monitors that don't have Nvidia validation in the drivers. Both my Asus pg27aqdm and Alienware dwf ultrawide had the same problem. I thought it was because they're oleds.
I have now had a 7900xt for 3 days and couldn't be happier. Perfect motion. Wouldn't buy a Nvidia card now without a Gsync ultimate monitor. I don't even trust the validated ones. Ray tracing be damned.😂 I'd rather perfect smooth motion over anything else.
you need to look into gysnc certified and has the actual gsync module inside. If you go with Gsync compatible monitors and you activate it you actually get screen flickering.
yea i do llike rt shadows tho because it gets rid oof all the flickering in shadows , i just dont like when devs just put rt either on or off, without the option of which ray tracing
You should give a list of Heavy Ray tracing titles that the 3090 beats the 7900XTX and then people can see how many games are impacted and if they must have those in High Ray Tracing mode or not, then the user can see which is really better for their use case. This will also most likely prove similar for the choice in other tier cards like the 7900GRE or 4070 for example. Again most likely.
Can someone explain why is a geometric mean better then the arithmetic one in this case? I know how these work but have never understood exactly what are the benefits of geometric means in practice.
Geometric means make the most sense when discussing situations that would be modeled with exponential functions rather than linear functions. For example population growth or interest in financial situations. Let's say a population loses 70% in the first year, 15% in the second year, grows 5% in the 3rd year, and then doubles in the 4th year. What is the average rate per year? You would answer this with a geometric mean by doing the 4th root of (.3)(.85)(1.05)(2) which is about .86, so you are losing an average of 14% per year. Since I would usually model a population with with an exponential function I could now construct a model like P=(initial population)(.86)^x. I know the numbers I made up are kind of nonsense, but hopefully this makes sense. In the benchmark in this video, I am expressing the results of the GPUs as multiplicative factors (what would I multiply the 3090 framerate by to get the 7900 XTX framerate), so it fits more naturally into the idea of a geometric mean.
@@danielowentech Makes sense, thank you a lot. At school, I was just taught about the existence of it, but not its practical use.
You must really be a great teacher!
Daniel must be so happy that someone asked a math question. 😉
RT is amazing, the answer to this question is simple: the heavier the RT effects, the bigger the gap will be between Nvidia and AMD, case closed, great video!
Yup, pretty much sums it up.
Yeah AMD seems to have caught up in Hybrid RT implementations to Nvidia but because Nvidia has dedicated cores to do RT, Nvidia cards do much better when its a more heavy Path Tracing load.
rt is stupid spend powerfully gpu
True, but also games with really heavy RT tend to be developed in close collaboration with Nvidia, which probably contributes at least somewhat to AMD's poor performance in them.
@@HunterTracks avatar is an amd sponsored game, and it performs better on nvidia gpu's, rt and dxr are available to use for any gpu, but the instruction set comes down to each manufacturer, their hardware and drivers, amd does bad purely because of their ray tracing approach, off loading rt acceleration to tmu's instead of having a silicon part made for rt acceleration.
The more time goes on, the less I care about Ray tracing. Most of the time I just can’t tell the difference in normal gameplay unless it’s Ray traced reflections.
Hey Daniel, off topic, would you consider doing a comparison of Lords of the Fallen gameplay / issues from when you first reviewed the game to the most recent 1.5 update? Never bought the game and would love your updated input.
Aside from cyberpunk and Alan wake it’s pretty serviceable. Having said that I just installed my new 4080 yesterday and coming from the 6700xt I loved, it’s amazing. The dlss features and reflex really are worth the premium, but I did get a great deal on the card or I wouldn’t have bought it
Yeah, it's a shame AMD just aren't the value for money folks think for the reasons you mentioned. Doubt I'd consider an AMD card again unless they manage to turn things around on the GPU front, fingers crossed they do.
how much did you pay? I know you can get 4080S for MSRP easy rn.
@@levijosephcreates I’d say they’re great entry level because they do have a lot of budget friendly options that are great value for the fps you get. But I have plenty of budget and finally got a good enough deal I didn’t feel ripped off paying big
@@levijosephcreates They definitely have decent value cards just 7900XTX isn't one right now after the 4080S came out BUT lets be real you not doing RT on 4060 or 4060Ti probably even 4070 as someone who had a 3080 I can say that card was not the best at RT at 1440p so I can't see 4070 being that great either
That's quite a jump in performance :D I went form 3080 10GB to 7900XTX Nitro and I love it too , superb performance at 1440p
I turn it on. Look around, aah yes it is different but does it really look that much better? Turns it off again to have a better experience with higher fps.
Yep that pretty much sums up my experience as well.
yes its looks so much better,ofcourse it does!
@@bodycount00 Not to my eyes. I honestly couldn't tell the difference at first until I watched a CZcams video telling me what to look for. If the difference isn't immediately apparent, I'll take the higher frames, thanks.
Im a 3dviz artist, who use RT for rendering, even games with RT turned off looks great, cant say its turned off until, I look for the details. coz games are beautifully crafted with fake shadows and reflections. Why turn on RT and Loose half Fps ???
Because of RT in my workflow my productivity have gone up 5X when moved from pascal to Ampere.
Thanks for all nvidia fan biys who are the reason for RT in my workflow, ur money helped the R&D .I admire u guys.
Thanks Daniel. I was toying with the idea of maybe selling my 3090 & going with a 7900xtx since the price dropped. I see now it's too fine of an upgrade. I'd want an upgrade across the board.
Depends on how many RT techniques as well as the RT quality being used.
Less RT features means the XTX's raw rasterization power shines through.
More RT features means the RTX's vastly superior handling of RT pushes it ahead.
I'm loving ray tracing and very happy with my upgrade from 980ti to 4070 ti super!
That's a massive upgrade, enjoy!
@@AbrahamZX1 thanks, it was a long time coming! (8 years this month) wanted to try 1440p ultrawide and i'm not disappointed. 980 ti is still very good at 1080p though, kinda crazy. 980 ti and 1080 ti are amazing cards.
I went from an i5 4570k and gtx 970 to an i7 14700K and rtx 4080, and I've been in love as well!
The jump is insane, and I can finally play all of the recent AAA titles I couldn't even run before. Cyberpunk 2077 at 1440p 120fps with full RT Ultra Psycho preset and path tracing is insane, and its so smooth and beautiful!
I love the performance I am finally able to enjoy
@@KrazzeeKane kick ass that is a monster leap! Welcome to the future.
You almost need a OLED with Raytracing to get that accurate shading shadows AO, Reflections detail with perfect Black's and lighting with RT Global Illumination peak lumance @ over a billion color's.
Especially with a dark game like Alan Wake 2 Resident Evil 4 RT just makes the immersion so much better in every way.
BS
Yup! that's why RT is overrated and HDR is underrated.
@@arttor8473 i tested jedi survivor these days. with raytracing. disabled it because i saw zero difference. a friend of mine who has an OLED is telling me the complete opposite. raytracing makes a difference at this game. in two weeks i will visit him and see it for myself. but maybe this isn't BS?
Resident evil 4 has trash RT that does nothing more than increase VRAM usage. And you can see RT making game visuals better without OLED as well. Ofc, oled and hdr with 10 bit colourwill be better, but so will be in the case of rasterization. HDR and RT are completely unrelated.
@@proprietarycurez8463 whatever you say troll, HDR can scam customers, it is overpriced af. In order to use HDR properly you need 600+ nits of peak brightness, local dimming and 10 bit colour otherwise you aren't getting any big improvement from HDR. On top of that you'll need G-sync ultimate of freesync prenium otherwise you'll lose VRR with HDR. And a lot of games don't have proper HDR implementation that just makes things blindingly white or nightmarishly dark for no good reason. on laptops, it reduces battery life as well. A GPU with good RT over HDR gimmicks any time of the day.
Daniel Owen… my favourite GPU-testing mouse pointer.
wonderful analysis. This is what I experienced too. 3080 vs 7900xtx
In Cyberpunk's non-overdrive mode on my 6800XT, I discovered if you have RT reflections and shadows, but you turn off the RT lighting, you can get almost-acceptable performance with upscaling. The effect of the RT lighting effect was disproportionately heavy, and that ties into the idea that lighter RT workloads don't hit AMD as hard, even in an Nvidia sponsored game.
yeah, RT reflections alone are pretty light in most games, high res RTGI is what makes GPUs sweat (but also gives the biggest visual uplift, at least for me, games start to look "right" and objects on screen feel properly embedded in the world thanks to accurate lighting)
Lighting and reflections made biggest difference while shadows almost none so yeah. Nvidia titles use heavy RT because their GPUs can handle it there is reason why AMD titles and on consoles RT is not even worth to enable because it made no difference or sometimes looks even ugly like in RE4R.
@@Extreme96PLshadows almost nothing? What are you smoking? RT local shadows makes all the objects in the scene to cast individual correct shadows. It completely changes the image.
@@TheMrSatyriconIt's not noticeable while you're gaming. Now path traced shadows make a big difference because they also work on NPCs and vehicles.
Well yea "lighting" is global, hence heavy. Still the way lighting and lights bounce off of every surface with path tracing is ludicrous and crank graphics quality to 11. Those neons bouncing off my car, seen it a thousand times by now, still impressive. Looking forward to more path traced games and AMD to catchup, sadly it looks like intel will sooner become RT ready while AMD will just release another mediocre product for 50$ less.
My opinion is rather negative about Java-gg. They informed me that my RTX 3060 Ti was only worth €120, but that is simply a scam. I sold it for €290. Every GPU I price-checked on Java-gg was priced too low.
I just wanted to let you all know.
Yeah, it's taking the same business model as GameStop in used games, or Carvana on used cars. They buy your card for cheap and then upsell it significantly to make some money, but for some people the pure convenience/instant sale is enough. You'll always make more selling it yourself.
can you add diablo 4's rt settings to the mix? or sporfoken
So two things.
One, more games will come out that only use RT for lighting/shading, so you HAVE to have a GPU that has RT cores to play those newer games. I believe it's easier for game devs and only having to work one lighting solution is certainly easier, which means less labor cost to make the game which means happier game companies.
Two, I don't think it matters if a game is geared to work on consoles as to how much RT load is pushed at a PC. Those are two separate platforms, and then even the the two companies of Sony and Mickeysoft have variations of hardware, and Mickeysoft owns a lot of game companies. So, a game company could push a lighter load at a console because it has to but might not like the appearance so much and then push a heavier load at a PC. So I don't think that statement holds up.
PS5P is supposed to have much better RT processing, so the bar is higher.
6:18 "Ah yes you root them"
*Proceed to nod while having no idea*
You've truly never heard of a square root?
i use blender as an artist which is why i would go nvidia, but if it were only for gaming i would most likely go amd. I don't know about you all but i prefer raster reflections to ray traced ones. the only rt effect that i really like is bounce light but so few games have meaningful rt.
the industry is clearly going in the direction of rt though. in a few years it will be very common to have at least some level of rt in most games. thats my prediction anyways, might be wrong.
@@tomgreene5388 You are right but ngl rt isnt meaningful if it isnt part of the art direction. that is why it works so well with cyberpunk and alan wake, they cared about how the rt was implemented. And thing is even if thingsl ike acurate bounce light and reflections are part of the art direction they will do their best so raster is close on feature parity with rt too. rt has no standing legs at least until it gets improved with LODs and other stuff
@@tomgreene5388 it should be common before I buy it not afterwards
@@tomgreene5388 in 5 years a 60 class gpu will do better rt than a current flagship gpu. so your point is moot, if not idiotic.
@@JohnSmith-ro8hk wtf are you even talking about? i said the direction of the industry, i mentioned nothing about a gpu or performance. i think you should learn to read and try to calm the tism down lmfaoooo. you think rt won't get more advanced as gpu performance does? lmfao way to jump the gun on trying to be an internet hardass and looking straight dumb my guy.
Perhaps a better way of comparing them would be to work out how much performance they lose when enabling RT compared to disabled or low to determine which is the most efficient. Rather than a direct framerate comparison.
But yeh, heavier workloads hurt AMD more. It depends on the game. If they're console games first and foremost, RT performance will probably be fine.
I had the decision between a 7800 XT and 4070 Super with a price difference of 100€. Chose the cheaper 7800 cause RT wasnt worth the extra bugs for me. But I always prefer fps over extreme quality even in casual games so decreasing my performance from 100 to maybe 60-70 fps isnt really what I want.
Part of me wanted AMD to catch up, but another part also wish that won't happen, once AMD catch up there's no guarantee they will stay cheap, most likely they gonna add green tax, or in this case Red tax to pay for those features set.
As long as I've been PC gaming (since we'll say, about 2006 where I started building PCs instead of just playing low spec games on my parent's computer), AMD (or ATi) was usually just a little cheaper with some caveats. They'd be a generation behind in something like Tessellation or now RT, but they'd catch up on that and have some good value cards. They would usually be a better value a few months after the card launches.
I don't see that changing. AMD would have to swing hard and undercut Nvidia significantly to get people to really start adopting their cards, and while they could, eventually, increase their prices after a generation or two of being the clear winner, I don't think they'll be that aggressive. RDNA2 and 3 were really the best chances they had, as they produced some excellent cards, they just priced them horribly to start.
I love watching Daniel moving all around the screen
Im a 3dviz artist, who use RT for rendering, even games with RT turned off looks great, cant say its turned off until, I look for the details. coz games are beautifully crafted with fake shadows and reflections. Why turn on RT and Loose half Fps ???
Because of RT in my workflow my productivity have gone up 5X when moved from pascal to Ampere.
Thanks for all nvidia fan biys who are the reason for RT in my workflow, ur money helped the R&D .I admire u guys.
Im also using AI in my workflow, and expect everyone's support for nvidia to grow and deliver to release much better products.
Remmeber Jensans words " "The more you buy, the more you save"
I has a 3090 ti Asus strix...beautiful card but sold it and bought a 7900xtx. 7900xtx us faster in raw performance...card wasn't going to be used for raytracing, already had a 4080 for that. But main reason us 3090 ti strix is a water cooled card and the 7900xtx isn't so that's what sold me on it. Both are great cards and can't loose out on either one. But 7900xtx is close to 3090ti with raytracing...and it's has fsr 3 frame generation as well...can't go wrong
In Cyberpunk, Alan wake 2 etc the 7900XTX performs like a 3070 Ti /2080 Ti in Path tracing which is extremely poor and bad. They really need to improve on a lot including ray tracing, upscaling otherwise AMD will always lag behind unfortunately
Lol, path tracing is a joke, it cannot be run smoothly on any normal card. And as you just saw, in Cyberpunk that is unfortunately often used by Nvidia fanbois, you're using specific Nvidia technologies, and then point out that AMD is slower, that is like saying that your petrol powered car performs badly on diesel. And even then on most Nvidia cards the FPS goes down so much that it would graphically look better without it, unless you don't mind the stutter. If you buy a card NOW for ray or path tracing, you can be sure it will be obsolete in a couple years time.
There are maybe 3 games which fully supports rt. I'm not paying for this when there is no games supporting it. Turning on rt shuts fps from ~75 to ~55 in Alan wake on 3080. Turning on Path tracing cuts it to 45fps. Not worth the hassle. And for what, crisper shadows. In most splaces people wouldn't be able to tell if it's normal rasterisation, rt or pt. In cyberpunk maybe, but not in other games without glass and neons everywhere.
Very high RT in ratchet and clank looks amazing too btw.
There are over 500 RTX games.
the only sane person in these comments
@@Wobbothe3rdNo, there are 500 games implementing some of the RTX features, which includes DLSS. The number of games that support RT is lower, the number of games that support RT in any significant capacity is _much_ lower.
@@HunterTracks Its actually more like 500 apps. 380 or 350 or somethijng like that being games.
Isn't Cyberjunk 1977 an Nvidia sponsored title? I beat that game with a RTX 2080 and a GTX 1660 Ti, I wouldn't use that game as a metric for a Radeon GPU.
RT is still in it's infancy,. It got better but still not enough to turn it on. I feel like besides getting lower frame rates, it looks also weird most of the time. Using a 4090 at an ultrawide oled display
Resuming = AMD is very good into simple Ray Tracing tec, like shadows, reflections and etc.
But when we go into more real heavy RT like Path Tracing, NVidia wins in a huge way because Nvidia has better ray intersection workload.
I hope amd gets better at ray tracing. I'm not really interested in rt in games, but it's a godsend for blender, and amd gpus are fantastic on linux.
*NVIDIA, all caps.
wow 295 watts for the 7900 GE vs 183 watts for the 4070 that's 110 watts more for 10 % performance
buy an air conditioner
40 series are designed to be power efficient. That is why the cheaper 4070 is still my pick over the 7900gre. In my country the 7900gre is $80 more expensive than the 4070. Here the more vram = more expensive.
@@proprietarycurez8463 loll so now you say this ? In the previous gen you guys said efficiency matters but now that amd loses in efficiency department suddenly you don't care about the extra much power from RDNA3 🤣😂
@@proprietarycurez8463 i think the point he is makings is that AMD uses way more wattage and therefore more costs in electricity, buying an air conditioner would make electricity costs even higher 💀
@@proprietarycurez8463Hey pal, you just blow in from stupid town?
Good topic, well thought out and presented.
Cyberpunk path tracing and metro exodus ee made me a believer.
Also check out Half Life 1 with the path tracing mod. Looks incredible.
Check out control , beautiful reflections. One of the best RT implementations till date.
Those games also made me a believer....in raster performance.
Yup. In some games it's truly amazing. That's exactly why I could never go with AMD.
@@CRF250R1521metro exodus runs like greased lightning on ada gpu's. Pretty sure I get 100+ fps at 4k without upscaling.
Do you have a discord server by any chance?
Can anybody tell me what program he is using for the tests? I would like to benchmark my own pc and would like to use the same program I see in the upper left corner
MSI Afterburner + rivatuner statistics server
Let's be honest. Nvidia sponsored titles have stupidly demanding RT which could be argued as futureproofing, but most AMD sponsored titles with RT always have super low-resolution RT. Like Quater of full resolution if I'm not mistaken without any way to increase it.
I would prefer the way Nvidia sponsored titles does it because you can always turn settings down or mod it for lower ray bounces. RE4 Remake's RT is so bad that I ended up playing it without reflections because even the screen space reflections looked bad.
RE 4 is the most garbage RT till date. AMD sponsored titles also often force FSR on you. Not to mention unnnecessarily high VRAM requirements like Last of us part 1 at launch. Nvidia sponsored ones have always included latest technologies, are often better optimized and many a times have FSR and XeSS on day 1.
They have path tracing which is still experimental at this point. AMD has pretty much caught up in terms of regular RT, their raytracing hardware is still a lot worse than Nvidia's but they make up for it with sheer horse power bringing it up to playable levels despite that.
@@DragonOfTheMortalKombatthere's like 1 game that didn't have DLSS at launch so now all AMD sponsored games are only FSR 😂 just remember that FSR and FSR FG are available on all graphics cards, compared to DLSS that is only available on RTX cards, and DLSS FG only on 40 series.
@@killkiss_son because they can't lock it up like dlss lol, and can't really afford to do so when it's an inferior upscaller, so it's better for them to create good will, and pull people to their ecosystem
I run RT on my 7900gre and it runs most games perfectly except for cyberpunk on stupid. 😂
I have found my 7900XTX to have a very similar RT performance to my 3080Ti in titles that have multiple RT effects or Nvidia sponsored. It was even a bit slower in some actually but in titles with lighter RT or AMD sponsored it can be quite a bit faster. In rasterization it blows it out of the water of course.
I feel like using percentages when theres already a super low framerate makes it seem like the difference is major. Maybe its time to go back to 1080p😊
@danielowentech2 scammer !
every GPU is shit with RT . just play native with high FPS wihout any FPS hog gimmic and be happy . the end
Agreed, hope this RT gimmick will end sometime, just like "PhysX" or "hairworks/gameworks"
It’s not a gimmick but just not for the average consumers. High-end GPUs + high-end monitors are key but not everyone in this world is willing to spend that much on them
Greedia only wants you to buy the 4090s
This is the logic that AMD fans use to cope.
@@lucaschenJC high end user's have a 4k monitor . . .and they need to use DLSS to have any kind of FPS so they don't play at 4 but something between 1080p and 1440p . Money we'll spend . I am use it's all worth for one graphics settings what you won't notice
What bothers me more is that Intel's first attempt at ray tracing is better than AMD's second. It's almost like AMD couldn't care less about RT, upscaling or most other feature sets in general.
AMD will utilize it when console manufacture demands that much RT performance from their chip.
games developed primarily for consoles are also just optimised for AMD - and that means less and lower quality RT effects.
Simply cause AMD with RDNA2/3 decided to not give them dedicated raytracing hardware and as such the suffer if anything but the most simple features are used: Environmental sound, physical based rendering lightsources, good reflections, enemy AI visibility - and many more can not be done on AMD cards cause they have extreme performance drops when you try use any textures. And as long as AMD just claims to support raytracing while intentionally hindering its adaption we will suffer from subpar lowquality lowperformance raytracing-effects.
Aren't all the modern console exclusives trash anyways? I'm not concerned about games I'm never going to play.
@@anitaremenarova6662 They do have some decent games from time to time. And due to the insane GPU-prices consoles have great value in comparison.
@@ABaumstumpf TLOU and God of war are the only decent ones I can think of. GPU prices are not that bad, you can build a 60FPS 1440p ultra machine for 800-900.
is a 6650xt worth buying, or should I wait for the Strix Point APUs?
what kinda cpu are you running?
Devices with the strix point apus will probably be pretty expensive and not price comparable to a desktop with an rx 6650xt
I'd go for something with a little more performance but its a decent pick if your monitor is 1080p and its the only thing your budget will allow
@@Toufan1-gr4br I want to get a 7600x
If you can get to the 6700xt, get that. Otherwise the 6650xt is serviceable.
Am I the only one who honestly couldn't give a crap about ray tracing and see zero difference between RTX on and off?
Yes, you are and you are blind.
Get your eyes checked
Most of the time there’s barely a noticeable difference without a digital foundry level technical breakdown.
It gets way worse with Pathtracing. Makes you question, if AMD has put any work into pathtracing at all (maybe not) yet
Path Tracing is just heavier RT, you just need to be fast enough to do it, AMD was definitely caught with their pants down though 😂😂 BUT they were busy fighting Intel let's not forget that, RTG is tiny next to nVidia, actually all of AMD is tiny next to nVidia, hopefully going forward they invest into GPU's more because this can't go on
How many games have pt? Right.
Alan Wake 2 RT High and Cyberpunk RT Overdrive both use PT. I mean, on a technical level all RT in modern games is actually PT but that's besides the point.
to test ray tracing i'd try the cards on rt games with native at 1440p with low rt and quality upscaling with rt high for 1440p marketed cards and quality upscaling with rt low and balanced with rt high at 4k for 4k marketed cards. if the cards don't get 60 fps i would eliminated them and consider them bad at ray tracing. after that i would see how much fps they get under those conditions in comparison to their price. if you get the average numbers for all those rt games for each card it would show you how good each card is in ray tracing. i think this is the most fair, realistic and easy way to go about it.
thx
My decision to pick a 7900 XTX was motivated entirely by using linux. God nvidia is awful on linux.
can i ask a question. is anyone really playing cyberpunk rt overdrive? its in every gpu benchmark (not just on this channel) and im wondering if people really play this game anymore?
You can check the steam charts and you'll see that around 30k ppl play it daily (+ people who own this game on GOG). Some of those ppl play with RT Overdrive. I know I did after I upgraded my PC.
If I had a high end nvidia gpu, I would enable it. Why wouldn't I? It objectively looks better. Everyone wants better graphics.
I have never seen anyone say "these graphics are great, but I wish they were shittier".
I am, 4070 ti super, with dlss q and frame gen it gets 70+fps on ultrawide resolution
@@LeaveMyGun i am not really disagreeing that it looks better. i am really wondering if any actually plays this game? other than for just benchmarks.
As a 7900XT owner for 9months+ it still boils down to what you play. I play HLL,Squad and flight sims so no RT anyway haha.
radeons have good shadows RT but when you turn on reflections or rt illumination these cards sink in performance deeply
They're good enough at ray tracing to keep Nvidia fanboys only talking about RT whenever they compare GPU's lol
If only that was the case. 7900XTX owner here and i've been having an awful experience in many other aspects. Been banned in games for anti-lag+ (example apex), crahes in games on launch and need to wait for drivers (example helldivers 2), my particular card has 100 ºC of hotspot temperature, still waiting for proper rocm support for windows and the list goes on. Probably going back to NVIDIA either next generation or the one after.
Have you tried undervolting, giving proper airflow to your gpu? 100C is not good my man , not normal at all
They're bad enough for AMD fanboys to try and hide it, and never talk about it, and dismiss it.
RT is great but tbh DLDSR +DLSS combo is goat if you have 1080p monitor. It fixes blurry TAA in new games with almost no performance loss and alot of jaggies in old games if antyaliasing sucks.
I switched from my RX 6650xt to 4070, never had any problems with Radeon, and I like their soft more. But Nvidia has a lot of intersting features outside of rtx. And DLSS performs much better than FSR. Considering you can use DL DSR feature and use 2K render resolution on a fullhd monitor, you get great picture quality with no performance loss.
Blackwell might be the first generation where RT might make sense.
Idk, my 4070 Ti has been using RT in games at 1440p fine
RT Pathtracing makes perfect sense on my 4090. 60fps experience with DLSS balanced in 4k. Can not complain. In addition, I use a ton of graphical and gameplay mods to make CP2077 look and feel worlds better than the base game and added the newest DLSS version 3.7.0 with preset E. The newest DLSS version that just came out looks like native DLAA with preset E at 4k balanced. No ghosting at all anymore while maintaining high detail. Anyway, I disagree strongly with what you said here.
@@MichaeltheORIGINAL1 2000 Dollar GPU doesnt make sense to me For path tracing for now
I tend not to have hope for Nvidia but now that they are rushing production to release it by Q4 2024 & Q1 2025 means the 4000 series is not selling as well. Even more so since 4000 super series had just came out.
Also GDDR7 memory bandwidth means a lot for future A.I., R.T, and RTX IO usage soooo a slight chance 5000 series might become as big of a legacy as the 1000 series.
@@happybuggy1582 Q4/Q1 is the expected release date of a generation of gpu's lol.
ADA is anything but not selling well, especially when their worst selling gpu (4080) still outsold the XTX 3:1
I think it's pretty simple, the differences are so variable because not all titles have very extensive ray tracing implementation. In AW2 and in Cyberpunk, both of which have full path tracing, the 3090 is still far ahead of the XTX because they have much more extensive ray tracing. the XTX has better rasterization performance, which is why it pulls ahead in some of these titles.
I also don't think you are correct in your approach. Averaging the results in these games - especially with varying upscaling usage and varying ray tracing implementations, isn't an accurate way to judge how good these cards are in ray tracing performance. Precisely because, the advantage in those titles is not a result of stronger ray tracing performance, but of a weaker implementation and higher rasterization performance for the XTX.
Nuanced discussion about team red vs green on the internet? Simply amazing.
The answer is very simple, Avatar and RE4 both have fairly weak RT implementations, so what you're mostly seeing there is rasterization performance not RT performance. If you want a true perspective of RT performance just look at Cyberpunk.
That's not how You do statistics tho. People play more games with any form of rt. Hardware unboxed i think has a great video with more samples. More games better accuracy and representation.
You mean cyberpunk that is literally been altered specifically for Nvidia GPUs?...the same cyberpunk where all GPUs is rubbish at path tracing, with Nvidia GPUs only getting decent performance because dlss pretty much doubles the frame rate. The fact that other brands are even running ray tracing in cyberpunk is impressive without even having dedicated hardware.
It's not so simple. CP and AW are essentially Nvidia tech demos.
@@KoffyGG Where are AMD tech demos then? What is their tech even? FSR? lol
@@jorge69696 RE 4 and Avatar are both AMD tech demos. Avatar is OK but RE 4 's RT is a gimmick. All it does is increase VRAM consumption so AMD GPUs with 16gb can look better than they are LMFAO.
I wish you would have mentioned using the standard deviation.
Can we look at more games? Cyberpunk and Alan wake 2 both use path tracing, and to me path tracing isn’t worth it unless you have a 4090 since your frames tank. Does seem like a fair/good comparison to make. I wonder what it would look like with just ray tracing results, 15-20% better on an 7900xtx?
i played AW2 with a controller at 1440p highest settings + PT with 4070 + DLSS Balanced + FG. And it was perfectly playble
I honestly hate this narrative that gets pushed by many mainstream review channels too. I had a 3070 and believe it or not but CP2077 Overdrive mode was playable on that 3070 too @ 1440p.
Problem is Nvidia's greed and the limited Vram of 8 gb.
You see what happens is that initially one gets 40 - 50 FPS with Performance mode DLSS or around 40 FPS with Balanced DLSS mode.
But the Vram limit causes the performance to start tanking after 10 - 15 minutes of gameplay. But its absolutely playable at 1080p even on a 3070 or 3060ti.
Yay, let's play RT titles at 30 fps. Much better than 20 fps !
Deny as much as you want but NVIDIA has better features, it's just a fact.
@@mobarakjama5570 No
@@mobarakjama5570 AMD still has its driver software ahead of Nvidia until Nvidia drops their reworked version at least
@@mobarakjama5570 Currently playing an old game (The Outer Worlds) and got to test out RTX HDR. With a little config, wow does it make the lighting look great for a game that doesn't have HDR baked in. Yeah Nvidia features are impressive. This current game and AC Valhalla I'm playing are AMD only, and when I turn those on I have no idea how anyone could be happy with those feature sets. You get what you get and all you can do is cope I guess.
The level of cope of your comment is astonishing
RT is a very expensive gimmick at this stage. If an 800 nvidia card can only push 37 fps at 1440p, what’s the point? RT requires dedicated processing units, so you end up with a larger, more power hungry gpu, which in turn leads to more heat, larger heat sinks, and things like the 12v high power connector. Steam surveys would indicate most people don’t own a card even capable of running RT. It’s a waste of resources to develop for at this time.
the 4070TISuper 1440p dlssQ gets roughly 60fps while only needing 240W of power in 2077 path traced, and that same survey puts the 4070 as one of the best selling cards, which even in lighter RT loads, beats the XTX, you need a modded bios with the XTX pulling 600W so it matches the 4070tiS in path tracing.
if anything, having dedicated hardware puts less load on the gpu, since you aren't brute forcing tmu's to do both tasks, ray calculations and mapping textures.
Yes.
...No idea really, haven't tried raytracing, other than Quake II RTX, comparing between GTX 1080 and RTX 3080 Ti.
isnt it about parity in ue5.5 titles?
FPS > Ray Tracing
In your opinion, but to me and many other people who buy nvidia cards the immersion brought by pathtracing is worth more than having more fps and if I'm going to have pathtracing on anyways then the nvidia card provides a better price to performance
@@justjosh5725 Agree
Only on competitive games, otherwise ray tracing > fps
@@justjosh5725 Agree. Path tracing is the future.
I grabbed the RX7600XT 16GB and turned on RT in the games I play. With the 7600 non XT I was lucky to get above 50FPS. I average almost 200FPS with the 7600XT the 16GB seems to make a difference. Combat games I have Max but no RT. Pretty looking does not mean winning.
My 7900xt can handle Elder Scrolls RT on high (which is all just better shadows and ambient occlusion, all reflections are baked in and done via raster) and Witcher 3 on low but I turn it off in W3 for upwards of 144fps just feels much better than RT at 60-70fps, with Elden Ring you're locked at 60 but it it wasnt locked I would've had RT off as well. I've seen 100+ Hz and I never wanna go back.
I hope AMD starts working on Ray Tracing soon so Nvidia/market will have some competition regarding that and it'll also help the tech progress much faster
Both CP2077 and Alan Wake 2 use hardware accelerated RT, since it's not built into the graphics engine itself. It's strictly a hardware enabled feature. When it comes to Avatar, Ubisoft utilizes software based RT, with the game engine built around it. This allows AMDs weaker Ray Accelerators to shine more effectively without all the extra horsepower.
This makes very little difference. Avatar RT isn't heavy/transformative in the first place. Making PT software-based would A) make it look worse and B) only improve AMD performance by like 10-15% which would still be unplayable territory.
in stuff with a lighter RT load, the 7900xtx wins this is likely due to jsut being an alaround faster chip than the 3090. however turn on a heavy RT load and it get's trounced by nivida's more specialized cores. Nivida is making their chips more and more specialized for RT laods is the bottom line while AMD chips are still more general rendering.
still all in all , i'm glad i finnally ordred a 4080 S at MSRP . now i jsut got a wait amonth for it to get here , and then i got save anotehr 1200 bucks to get the rest of the computer that is itnended for . in the mean time i'll have a blast testing just how much a ryzen 2700 bottlenecks a 4080 S
Love the math and explanations in this video
As a 7900xtx owner I neither care about the RT alpha state feature (pathtracing looks nice tho (mostly), sadly no GPU can handle it in raster), nor do I care about upscalers.
By the time RT becomes something actually justifyable in terms of fps impact to image quality my 7900xtx will be outdated and I might buy a GPU that can easily handle RT..
AMD copium, the rest of us are already enjoying PT now because we don't have an upscaler that looks like dogshit.
@@anitaremenarova6662 I dont buy a 4k priced GPU just to play on lower res. I dont see a logic in that, sorry
@@Greenalex89 If you're not using a TV to play on then 4K is a waste of money, path tracing actually improves the visual experience.
@@anitaremenarova6662 By the time RT is the default solution even your 4090 won't be able to run it
Just like the PS4 pro and Xbox One X era, the majority of development will not be around the pro consoles for this generation.
There just isn't enough profit in it for the publishers, they want to sell as many units as they can and not limit their sales for the sake of slightly better graphics.
The games will simply play better on the pro consoles, solid 60 fps etc.
Power consumption based on raytracing settings would be interesting.
For you and your one friend.
I think this leaves us the same place we have been for a few years- if you care about ray tracing, go with Geforce.
With more and more games implementing it, and it being the superior technology for visually appealing graphics, I would assume more people are starting to care about ray tracing. I'm even seeing tons of indie games use ray tracing now and it can make an enormous difference in indie games where they don't have the resources to spend on baking in lighting to the level a AAA studio can. There are times where ray tracing isn't super noticeable in AAA games because they already do such a great job at lighting, although I think that will become less the more they can lean on the simplicity of ray tracing, but that is never the case in indie games. You turn on ray tracing and it's like WOW!!!
Leaning into the indie point a little more, indie games are on the rise and becoming very popular and important to the gaming industry. Sadly, AMD just doesn't support indie studios. Nvidia supports them so freaking much from what I hear from indie devs. As somebody with multiple Radeon and Geforce graphics cards I use every day, I can say unequivocally that indie games in general run way better on Geforce.
Aside from indie games, AMD just doesn't do a good job at supporting game studios. They cut every corner they possibly can and unfortunately studio support is one of the areas where it is super noticeable. I remember a few months ago where there was a span of like a month where game after game kept getting Radeon features like FSR3 dropped because it was causing stability issues with a bunch of games and AMD wasn't being helpful enough to make sure their features could be ready for game launches. There is a handful of studios that do console games that AMD sponsors, and they basically ignore everyone else.
But my disdain of Radeon doesn't change the fact that if you mostly play AAA console ports, and that is a ton of people, or if you really don't care about graphics, probably a lot less people if they're being honest, then AMD's inferior product could still make sense and be a much better value for you.
i cannot imagine being a casual customer these days the differences are crazy between the brands it's insane
I have used a bunch of cards. Amd 5770 Vaporx, 6750 and 6950(old version) Then i got a 980ti then a 1080ti. Then i went 6900xt and now my 7900xtx. Honestly i love my 7900xtx. Other then RT it kicks ass. Honestly most games with RT is fine. hopefully next gen we actually get a top tier gpu and they get rt more like 20% less. Keep in mind Nvidia is 1 cycle above AMD in RT. Going from 6900xt to 7900xtx was actually a decent jump.
The thing about ray tracing and RTX cards is if you dont buy the highest tier Nvidia cards you will still be better at ray tracing than your mid range AMD card but now its a difference between 30fps and 45fps, unless you buy a 4080 or higher tier card and wanna ray trace in a modern title you're gonna have to live with well under 60fps for anything 1440p and up. Even a 4090 cant hold 60fps in Cyberpunk with RT on high at 4k, its a technology simply not built for this generation.
one could say that if you have two GPUs from AMD and Nvidia that are just as powerful aka having the same raster performance, you will get a better experience from Nvidia when RT is added to the mix. usually AMD offers more powerful GPU for less - more powerful in rasterization and thats why those comparisons are often as they are.
if you pay a little more for an Nvidia GPU with the same raster, you get better RT handling, way better PT handling, better upscaler, FG, ray reconstruction and use quite a bit less power for the same FPS. BUT you pay more for it. so thats where ppl have to decide.
And nvidia also superior for inference thanks to TensorRT ❤
Patent to use Daniel as a Mouse Pointer in windows!
7900xtx can play cyberpunk 2077 ultra with RT shadows ON and medium RT lightning 80-100+ fps+ mods.
I do believe with the price tag and the actual performance, 7900 xtx should be compared with 4070 ti super, not 4080 let alone super.