Good vs Bad FANTASY Dialogue (Writing Advice)
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
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In this video, I analyse good and bad dialogue scenes from The Rings of Power, The Lord of the Rings, Eragon, and Narnia - all to help you write better dialogue in your fantasy novel.
⏲️ TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 - Introduction
00:23 - What defines BAD fantasy dialogue?
02:17 - What defines GOOD fantasy dialogue?
04:59 - Special guests
05:42 - The Rings of Power
07:35 - The Chronicles of Narnia
09:58 - Eragon
12:54 - The Lord of the Rings
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The reason Aragorn's speach works is yes, he uses repetition, but he uses it correctly so his words gain a poetic feeling and enhance the message he is trying to convey.
Repetition when used well is a masterful rhetorical device. Rhetoric has dozens of rhetorical figures which employ repetition. Anaphora being a classic example of rhetorical form.
Moreover, even modern shows like Seinfeld repeat lines word for word to brilliant comedic effect. In fact the very first line of dialogue of the 1st episode of Seinfeld between Seinfeld to George is the same sentence employed in the last line of dialogue in the last episode. In fact George responds in the last episode... haven't we had this conversation before... And this technique is seen throughout the writing of Seinfeld.
It has to be said though, any technique without proper context and form will fall flat on its face. Aragorn's speech was excellent, because it was within a movie and story where the quality of the overall film provided the depth for that speech to work. If Lord of the Rings had much worse directors or writers, the speech might have went over as well as the President's speech in Independence Day...
They’ve also earned this moment of poetry where the Rings of Power clip did not. We’ve seen Aragorn struggle and bleed and lose dear friends, and in this moment he inspires, not with bravado, but by stating his fear and overcoming it.
It’s also a speech given before an important battle, so it already has more gravitas than a convo between a girl and her brother for example. It’s not really the time to mince words, but he wants to give them hope that what they’re doing is greater than themselves.
Acutally, his speech is not the one that moves me the most. I like King Theoden's speech better. -Besides such speech ARE NOT dialouge! They are monolouges!
Also aragorn is likable
Personally, the line "I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me," is killer. He's instilling that his men are braver than he is, and he'd freeze of flee in their shoes.
It instantly puts them as equals. The fear they feel is not a failing, because he feels it, too, and yet he will fight and he knows that they have it in them to fight as well.
"the heart of me" is not something people say. It's almost Yoda speech.
@@toddbonny3708 We call it elevated language, they're supposed to teach you that in junior school so I don't know why it eludes you so unless you're 10 or your school really sucked.
@@toddbonny3708 my dude, have you ever readith a book?
@@toddbonny3708 He isn't just a person, he is a king trying to rally his troops, boost their morale, and lead them to what would likely be their deaths. So while you are right, you and I wouldn't say it. But, I would venture to guess that you likely have never said anything that others would call "Grand". You can't put your own style of speech in there because he isn't you, he isn't even in our world or time period. Different place and time, different rules.
Theoden's speech before the ride of the Rohirrim. You can't get much more epic than that.
And the score when they start riding. Chills every time
*SPEARS SHALL BE SHAKEN, SHIELDS SHALL BE SPLINTERED*
Eomer! Take your eored down the left flank! Gamling! Follow the King's banner down the center. Grimbold! Take your company right after you pass the wall. Forth! And fear no darkness! Arise, riders of Theoden! Arise! Spears shall be shaken! Shields shall be splintered! A sword day! A red day! EEEEEEREEEE THE SUN RIIIIISEEEEEEEES! DEAAAAAAAAAATH! DEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATH!
@@mistertwister2000 A sword day! A red day! Ere the sun rises! Death!!!
Deaaaath!!
It says a lot about the quality of Aragorns speech that it still gives me goosebumps after all these years. 🥰
Agreed
Yep!
Is it book accurate..?
@@kellysmith1144 pretty accurate
agreed (although i think i give half the credit for the goosebumps to Howard Shore's score haha)
Given the snippet you used from Rings of Power, I'm surprised no one's pointing out another important factor - metaphors should make sense. "It's because the stone sees only downward" made me instantly aware of the kind of ridiculous writing I was about to be exposed to and it was only the first few minutes of the show!
The writers for rings of power were writing the equivalent of bad fan fiction all while convincing themselves it was deep and brilliant.
It set the stage for what the show is: stupidity masquerading as intelligence.
Exactly LOL! Like elves wouldn't kmow a stone sinks because of its weight and density. That's now how one anthropomorphize objects or non human elements.
It really only works in poetic sense like "the sun smiles at us in the morning then frowns at sunset". Trying to say oh the sun shines more than the moon because the sun is a winner and the moon a emo loser is dumb as hell.
These are also the same writers that decided that the famous and mythically powerful, seafaring men of Numenor, needed a catch phrase of, “The sea is always right”
Either they were in over their heads or their heads were up their asses when writing that.
@@nathanrobertson819 That phrase is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It doesn't make sense in any way. Not literally, not symbolically, not philosophically. Pure stupidity on display.
Something not talked enough about in Aragorn’s speech is the use of the horse and the camera movement. Most films would settle for the hero giving a speech standing still or on some kind of platform. But Peter Jackson consciously choose to have him constantly moving the horse. This does many things. Subconsciously, the viewer feels they need to keep their on focused on him, same way we try to focus on an object when it’s moving or when speaking to someone who’s walking around. It’s easier for the mind and focus to wander on a static object. It also give a sense of urgency to the situation. He seems antsy, ready to go at a moments notice. It also reinforces the sense of him speaking to EVERYONE, not simply stand in front of a portion of the front line and expecting everyone, including the audience to listen. Much how profesional speakers, singers, stage actors etc know how to use movement around the stage to keep everyone’s attention.
You're so right. That he kept moving Brego his persistently really amped up the feeling of anticipation. Looked like he was struggling to give his speech a little bit xD
Brego's rearing up as Aragorn turned was unscripted. Just another impoved moment of brilliance from an amazing actor who read the atmosphere without understanding any words!
@@henkrpe3249I loved that moment. Surprised it wasn’t scripted but all the more impressed.
They used that same technique in Braveheart, when Wallace was speaking to his men before a battle. He was on his horse and kept moving the animal back and forth in front of the trops, while he gave a speech.
@@roslynbrown6176 one of the best films of all time
The Narnia scene also has one of the power house actors of the age, which helps. You're not gonna write badly for Tilda Swinton.
I mean, it is taken fairly directly from the novel, to be fair (I may have issues with the film adaptations but they did that scene pretty well).
@@Sassenach1745 Same. I have issues with the films but some parts are good.
She did great, but shoutout to Edmund's actor, his chemistry with her was great, and he bounced off naturally with her
Yeah
1
I will never get over the fact that Eragon (the film that doesn't exist) had a higher budget than The Fellowship of the Ring, had a longer run time, and was *still* a far worse adaptation of the source material.
It's not like the source material was a treasure trove to begin with either.
I think I heard it summarized best by an old reviewer that the Eragon movie feels like a series of FMVs for a tabletop campaign.
So you have never read the books yourself?
The series gets a lot of flack, but it's not that bad, certainly not for a 17-19 year old's debut series. Idk how much writing he'd done before that.
The biggest argument I hear is that it's just generic fantasy and doesn't do anything new. But I'd say that's its strength. It knows what it is and does exactly what it tries to do, without becoming self-important, or muddled by trying to do everything.
(There's little that gets more annoying than a book that thinks it's better than it is, or shoe-horns stuff that don't belong, and I've seen plenty.)
I loved it back in high-school, though by the 3rd and 4th book it got a little long-winded with its descriptions😅
I think at this point people just love to hate on it because that's what they see everyone else doing🤷🏻♀️
But whatever, we're all entitled to our wrong opinions I guess😅
@@madmaddiesmadhouse4062The books aren’t masterpieces, but they certainly have a lot of heart and creativity. You can tell Paolini has a passion for his world and characters.
@@writerducky2589 this is honestly a really fair interpretation, ty!
“The very heart of me” is an archaic turn of phrase that grounds the reader/listener in the world, but is not so convoluted or weird that it’s hard to understand. This is sometimes a challenge for fantasy writers.
Random fact: the Latin word for heart is 'cor'. Which is also the root word for courage.
@@cledgefenrir5681
A metaphor that remains in the language to this day.
"You gotta have heart." -- from _Damn Yankees._ The Washington Senators, who had not won a pennant since 1933, were trying to figure out how to get their act together.
0:07 don't tell me you were trying to suggest "That's right Peter: I'm you, and you're me, and this is a gun." is BAD dialague. That is THE most iconic line in cinema history, maybe ever
I have to disagree, the most iconic and best line in cinematic history is undoubtedly "I did not hit her, it's not true, it's bullshit, I did not hit her, I did NOT. Oh, hi Mark."
LOL
@@amysteriousviewer3772😂
*"Pizza Time!"*
Iconic is not always good, mostly are memorable but not specifically considered good. Just like Forspoken _"I move things with my mind!"_
@@aoihitori”pizza time” isn’t a bad line in any way, shape, or form. Just because something becomes a meme doesn’t mean it’s bad. “Pizza time” is completely within character for Peter and advances the plot, not to mention makes the audience remember the time limit he had right before the secretary looks at the clock for the funny reveal.
I always loved how it's Merry and Pippin who are first to charge after Aragorn
“For Frodo”
Exactly. The smallest and physically weakesr are the first to Charge into a line of Orcs.
I bet it's like let's start the race and others rush. "Try and run, but we'll catch up quicker!"
And then the rest of the army decides they can't have a pair of halflings showing them up.
A good thing to remember is that not all of these rules are set in stone. For instance, the majority of the time you don’t want to be repetitive, but in the last example with Aragorn’s speech, he says “there may come a day” and “it is not this day” repeatedly. It works very well even though it’s repetitive. When it comes to figuring out if you should repeat something or breaking other common dialogue rules, you should ask if it’s appropriate for the character and the setting. Aragorn is an old and wise character, so it makes sense that he would say something poetic, but he’s also speaking to thousands of troops, so he wants a simple message to get across to all of them.
If he said something like that to Frodo while they were walking, it would be distracting. Even though it fits Aragorn’s character, it wouldn’t fit the setting.
TL;DR of what I’m trying to say, is that a good way to tell if your dialogue is jarring or unnatural is to evaluate if it fits the character AND the setting.
Interesting point, because Aragorn's speech is not so much 'dialogue' as oratory. This often gains strength through repetition - think of political speeches. Romans thought good oratory was one of the marks of an educated person.
That repetition is a rhetorical device often used in speeches (ex. I Have a Dream) and is different than repeating dialogue in a story.
In my own words, I call it the "rule-breaker rule"
For every rule, there is an exception to it. and there's no exception to that.
In poetry, this is called anaphora and epistrophe: repeating words or phrases at the beginning or end, respectively.
I think it's because he's not repeating information, he's repeating a mood, an emotion. He's saying all the things that will be lost, and reiterating that it is not this day. Also his own mood, tone, delivery become more confident and passionate with each repetition, so you are getting new "information" as emegy is added to the speech
Aragorn's speech works for one reason: you hear him, you will follow him in battle (and Viggo is a fantastic actor)
In cinema, a true feat would be to give a speech that gives the audience the chills while there is no musical score behind it. I often wonder how aware audiences are of the musical score’s effect on the character dialogue. Like when a speech hits home, in reality isn’t the scene of the movie, those people don’t hear the orchestral music, so if the music is what signals to us it’s a good speech, that’s not an immediate win, it should be considered how impactful the words will be with no music, because we are writers
As someone who loves film music, my experience has been that people are nearly completely unaware of the music (consciously). But I also think you give the music too much credit. The film and the music need to work together to be effective
This is really highlighted if you listen to anything Aragorn says vs anything Thorin --from the Hobbit-- says. The music swells every time Thorin says anything and it's just pathetic really
Funny you mention that because I found the plinky weird keyboard underneath what they were saying discussing the Eragon dialogue to be REALLY off putting. I could hardly concentrate on what they were saying
Those lines were written to be read (so no music), and are just as impactful when read.
There's a speech at the end of the movie Scent of a Woman that has no music. At the end, the music comes in out of nowhere and hits hard every time
The Narnia Scene works really well in my opinion because you can also tell through their way of speaking that Edmund and the White Witch are from two different worlds. She says things like how did you come into my dominion, Edmund is talking in a more modern sense in terms of vocabulary but also respect. You don’t talk to a Narnian royalty and just blurt out Why? without even addressing them. It also conveys the feeling the White Witch is using her words carefully and specifically which furthers her manipulative nature.
The Eragon scene feels like it would word in a novel if not the characters but the narrator said those things. I haven’t read the Eragon books so I don’t know much about them but it feels like this would’ve been a narrator-expresses-how-far-we-have-come moment and gives the feeling of closing a book and putting it aside. In the movie however it had to be dialogue and that just feels wrong for the reasons you stated.
Aragorn‘s speech is just fantastic and a great way to climax his character development. Aragorn rejected the title of leader but in his nature that’s what he does. He lead the fellowship when Gandalf fell, he lead the men in Helm’s Deep and he lead the last stand against Mordor. There is sincerity in his voice. This is the speech of a leader but it doesn’t sound pretentious because he is the leader and he has finally embraced his role. It’s authentic. He doesn’t sugar coat. He expresses fear, the need for courage. Aragorn doesn’t have to act strong or fearless because he doesn’t have to pretend to lead. I love that
I've read the Eragon books and I'm reasonably sure that nothing of the sort is written in them lol.
Aragorns speech works so well because they're staring at this army and every man is thinking "I'm about to die." and Aragorn says "yeah, and I'm gonna die with you. We are all about to die together, side by side, to give the rest of the world some hope. That's who we are."
I don't think it's about fear at its heart. It goes deeper. He's telling them that, when death is certain, that this is the best way to die. Side by side, fighting for all you hold dear.
And nothing needs to be said about the Rings of Power
@@TomorrowWeLive the what of what? Sorry, You lost me
I like how you didn't even bother to write a single letter about Rings of Prime
When I heard Theoden speech from the Battle of Pellenor Fields for the first time I really feel urge to break cinema chair to pieces and run with part of it against the forces of Sauron screaming "DEEEEATH!!!" :)
This... And the President's speech in Independence Day...
@@ChaosMind10531 Yes, yes ! This!
I do like Aragorn’s speech, but I’ll be honest that Theoden’s speech at the fields of Pelennor I think is better. Especially considering his lines upon his death. Just perfect
YES !!! I'm so ready to charge into battle and die for Théoden King
While I know the topic is speeches, I'd like to offer a line from LOTR:
"My friends, you bow to no one."
It just was so powerful! It conveyed all of their sacrifices and heroics so beautifully, I cannot even give it justice!
@@didi81_Rohan is in danger? Get me a horse!
Théoden's speech is more of Tolkien's language, which is usually superior!
Gandalfs quiet dialog with Pippin about death just being a another journey always gives me goosebumps. And what I really like about it is, pippin responds with "that doesn't sound so bad," which is exactly how I felt afterwards as well!
I just had an Ahah, moment, so that's where Dumbledore stole Death is the next great adventure, which seemed both cheesy and heartless (from Dumbledore) but sympathetic from Gandalf.
@@dangerbook4807 Except that Gandalf only said it after Sorceror's Stone was published, since he says it in the RotK script.
In the RotK novel, the "gray rain curtain of the world rolled away" to reveal the "far green country under a swift sunrise" - that language is in there, but it's when the Last Ship actually leaves Middle Earth for Valinor. (In that way, movie Gandalf is sort of misleading Pippin, since coming to Valinor alive with the blessing of the Valar is hardly the same as dying and finding your way to the doom of your species...but that's a Tolkien nerd's digression.)
That said, the same idea is expressed in a bunch of other places. Off the top of my head, there's "To die will be an awfully big adventure," "To sleep, perchance to dream, ay, there's the rub - for in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?" - both of which are works that predate LotR, not to take anything at all away from Tolkien's beautiful prose.
I also think of a hundred different ways Star Wars writers from George on down have described becoming one with the Force as a thing to embrace and even celebrate. Although it was written after Sorceror's Stone, the one line that encapsualtes the general principle is "Rejoice for those who have transformed into the Force".
@@davidalan528Fun fact: The grey rain dialogue is actually originated from the book version of Fellowship of the Ring. It’s not a dialogue, but an extract from a chapter where Frodo and his friends stays in Tomb Bombadil’s house. The extract is a description of the scenery over the Old Forest when they look out from the house. I only realise that when I read the book and I think it is used beautifully in the movie.
I think we often forget the culmination of the dialogue. That's one of the crucial parts in a story, as the words of a character establish who they are, and let us see the gradual change from who they were to who they'll be at the end. Aragon's speech is a prime example of that. The ranger who became the King, the road he'd taken to face the nightmares of Mordor and his inner fears, now speaks from his heart to the men who he holds dear, as equals perhaps. That's powerful.
Great video, thanks!
Excellent point. I meant to include something about this but it got cut for time - but you are so right with this
Precisely
Tolkien was also a philologist, which means he did nothing but study and teach things about words.
A pity they ruined his work like that (Talking about rings of power in case it's not obvious).
@@Esmaeili-FreePalestine well Tolkien wrote nothing about what happens in that series. It's fan fiction, pure and simple. Peter Jackson however, was the perfect director for the trilogy
@@tiveqcriarcontanova That's exactly my point. He had nothing to do with these series yet they attract attention using his name and characters, and go on and misuse it, even going so far as changing canon events.
Oh, peter Jackson, God bless him.
@@tiveqcriarcontanova didn't tolkien hate jackson version? or was that his son or something? I remember reading something along those lines a long ago
@@Gabi24492 He died a long time before the movies were made.
His son hated not the film but the very idea of a movie made from LotR. And the Tolkien estate has a fair part of responsability in the rings of power fiasco, as they forbid the use of any material in the Silmarillon. Which means they have been made only with the appendixes of LotR, which is madness.
Aragorn is just a prime role model for good characters. He is powrful but humble, he takes up responsibility but not for his own glory, and everything he does is in service and duty to those around him.
Aragorn: the masculinity we should have been chasing all along.
....so basically any normal ruler in fantasy?
I'd say one important aspect is to not get _too_ hung up on the entire 'said vs unsaid' part of dialogue, and that *context is key.* If you have two characters who know each other extremely well and support one another, there's no need to dance around what they want to say in private. Their explicit trust becomes the subtext. As for the Rings of Power example: the closest thing to a coherent message I can parse out of this parable is 'bad people focus on the negative, good people on the positive.' However, there's a bit of a caveat: he's talking to a child (a child that just got bullied no less). I get that elves have infinite lifespans and can waste decades pondering riddles and whatnot, but I feel like an amount of directness is more than called for in such a situation.
My biggest gripe with that example was that the metaphor didn't really work. The shop part was fine, because a ship could be considered to "look up" because its prow points up. But it doesn't work with a rock, because any random rock one might pick up somewhere, won't have a distinct form that suggests it's looking in any direction at all, so it fell flat.
Also the fact that he set it up to be this grand revelation, and I was ready to be amazed.
And then it just dropped. Like...well, a rock.
@@writerducky2589 Oh yeah, it's a terrible metaphor no matter how you slice it. It reads like something that was made up on the spot to sound profound, a bit like the nonsensical line in TLJ about 'hope being like the sun'. I tried reverse-engineering the message earlier whole cloth from the core words 'dark' and 'light' since they're pretty much analogous with evil and good in Tolkien's setting, and because it wouldn't be a terrible thing to tell a child in such an instance. Just don't read too far into the whole implication that some kids can never be "ships".
@@writerducky2589 Since a rock can only fall downwards due to gravity, I would say the metaphor works very well. It's "gaze" is downwards, since that is the only direction it moves. A ship looks upwards because at this point all ships have a mast, high above the main body of the ship, catching wind, which would be upwards relative to the sailors. It certainly isn't downwards. p.s. I like your "it fell flat" pun.
Lol they're elves, with eternal wisdom. I think the lore is that elf children are wiser than human adults. Which isn't saying much since this apparently this metaphor goes over a lot of adult human heads. Not necessarily yours, just saying after reading comments about the metaphor "not making sense." I don't know, I didn't have an issue with it. It was applicable to her situation and in the end the metaphor relates to the entire series.
I like that you said that in chronicles of Narnia The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe and The Lord of Rings The Return of the King , had good dialogue, which implies that you think the C.S. Lewis and J.R.R Tolkien are good at writing dialogue. I also agree with that but they are two of my favorite authors.
People are intelligent and their brains automatically connect subtext. I don’t need everything spelled out, in a grand reveal or in a simple sentence. The best writers allow our brains to figure it out and my imagination work on its own. Good writers have a passion to do this and know how.
Aragon's speech is modeled after the Saint Crispin's day speech from Henry V by Billy Shakes. Specifically the repetition of "But it is not this day" If you wanna learn from good dialogue, take a peak at Shakespeare. His dialogue has to also be the stage directions, there for it's laced with movement. Classic.
And I love you putting your clients in the video. Very cool!
Aragorn’s speech shows his growth as a leader. Compare to him before the Battle of Helm’s Deep where he is full of doubt and almost lets that doubt infect the people of Rohan. Legolas sets him straight, then he has that interaction “This is a good sword Haleth, son of Hama. There is always hope” where he inspires one child. At the Black Gate he inspires a legion.
This is why I favour Aragon
@@brandongiancarli3037
Or when Aragon promised.
"I do not know what strength it is in my blood, but I swear I will not let the White City fall nor our people."
That's so powerful coming from Aragon. It fits perfectly as Borormir fits the type of people are in Minas Tirith today where he was raised by elves and knows what he has to face and is face to face with how his people have lost hope and faith and he realises he has to come to terms with standing behind his people and give them strength. Boromir sees that Aragorn is sincere and has strength in his voice to give it his best and Boromir feels peace and assurance before he passes on.
Much as I love Aragorn's pre-battle speech, Tyrion Lannister's speech at the Battle of Blackwater from 'Game of Thrones' has recently become my favourite in terms of brilliant dialogue. Delivered to an army that's lost all hope of winning, and all faith in Tyrion's ability to lead them through what they see as certain doom, he turns them around and rallies them with:
"Don't fight for your king, and don't fight for his kingdoms. Don't fight for honour and don't fight for glory. Don't fight for riches because you won't get any. This is YOUR city Stannis means to sack - that's YOUR gate he's ramming. If he gets in, it'll be your houses he burns, your gold he steals, your women he'll rape. Those are brave men knocking at our door. Let's go kill them!"
That's a great example. Love it
It's interesting how intentionally clunky it seems to be, especially with the last sentence, which makes it seem he's just run out of ideas what to say.
@@Nethan2000 It plays better onscreen, with the body language and pauses in all the right places, which can't be conveyed in just words. And Tyrion isn't addressing trained soldiers in this moment - he's a king's son addressing poor commoners, who've been drafted last-minute into the battle, and whose only experience of a fight might be a fist-brawl in a tavern after several drinks. Tyrion knows that the kind of rousing rhetoric a commanding officer would give his own troops isn't going to work on a bunch of inexperienced and terrified peasants; he has to talk to them in their own language, not the language of the ruling class. And I think he accomplishes that beautifully in this speech.
@@Maerahn I mean, pauses... Those are what ellipses are for, no? Them, and the colons, and the semi-colons; all indicators of how long one should pause when reading a text.
...Of course, nowadays ellipses are as abused as dogs in a puppy mill.
But there is a punctuation for pauses in the right places.
HALF MAN!!! HALF MAN!!!
Another of my favorite dialogues is from The Fellowship of the Ring between Frodo and Gandalf in Moria. For me, that whole dialogue was such a powerful, defining moment for Gandalf as a character, transitioning from stern mentor to soothing guardian. He was always fun to have around on screen and very likeable, but that scene just made me fall in love.
"I wish the ring had never come to me ... I wish none of this had happened."
"So do all that live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Or Elrond's lecture "Whether by the sword or slow decay of time..."
That one hits me all the time.
the second you start actually processing RoP dialogue it falls apart. That just kills it especially coming from the elves who are supposed to be wise and well spoken
C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien’s works are classics for a reason. Highest quality always. ❤
The main problem I had with Galadriel's brother's speech was that Elves had a good understanding of the world, so the dialogue didn't sound like an elf. It was poetic but didn't make sense for the characters.
The same happened when Halbrand told Celebrimbor how to make the rings - he had to explain school level chemistry to the greatest elven smith. I don't know what the writers were thinking....
For Aragorn's one, man I had to the get the tissues out. It's a perfect example of telling the audience what they already know, but giving them the hope the characters need - telling the other characters that they are brave and boosting their morale.
If I've learned one massively importnat principle of leadership during times of low morale, it's to reflect your people's strengths back onto them, visibly, audibly and often, especially in a context where those strengths may feel insufficient to the task. I mean, it's in almost every St. Crispin's Day Speech in literature in one way or another, but it operates in the real world too.
Rings of power is just dumb, written by diversity hires with diversity messaging in mind, i only managed to get through 3 episodes :D
@@ogierthedane6025 yeah, if diversity is like an intrinsically bad thing to you, not surprised you didn’t like it.
@@davidalan528 If diversity takes president over good story, then yes its bad, its always very obvious and forced. Should i also get offended if i watch a movie from China or Nigeria and i don't see any white people?
@@davidalan528 diversity isn't a bad thing, but usually bad writer use diversity to cover up their bad writing as 'represantation'. You can find good use of diversity in arcane or old star trek for example
I think my biggest qualm with being a writer is that disconnect between what people say they want and the *reality* of what they're asking for.
The scene with Jadis and Edmund is also great because you can tell she has some hidden motivation. Even first time watchers who haven't read the books can tell she puts some importance on the fact that there are four of the siblings, but you don't know, yet, what that is. It tells us there is more to the story, makes us want to anticipate what that is. It helps drive the story forward.
All good rules, but remember you can always break them if it serves your story, or even for comedy. Have another character call them out for it. #4, you can have one character use convoluted language, and another who is listening says something like "W T F are you even talking about?", or just repeats what was said in simpler language.
Dr. Who often has The Doctor saying something in convoluted language, even technobabble, then one of his companions says "You mean..." and just repeats it more simply. It works because it helps establish The Doctor's character. Its also a good means of exposition.
The Princess Bride famously got away with #2 with "Hello. My name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
Or Indigo calling out Vicini's violation of #2 with "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
So I guess these are more like guidelines than rules. The one thing that is a set rule is that it has to drive the story.
Great points….but I have to be that person….Inigo, not Indigo.
Lol I’m sorry, I’m sorry, it’s one of my favorite movies and I really tried to refrain but …obviously I failed.
“ I am Inigo Montoya. You misspelled my name. Prepare to be corrected”. 😅
You have to know and understand the rules, how they work, in order to be able to properly break them.
"#4, you can have one character use convoluted language, and another who is listening says something like "W T F are you even talking about?", or just repeats what was said in simpler language."
That was actually a running gag in _My Little Pony 'n Friends._ Wind Whistler would say something sesquipedalian, and Spike would reply, "Not only that, but [the same thing in plainer language]."
@@KororaPenguin Thats what they do in Dr. Who.
czcams.com/video/pwHutx9Zuv4/video.htmlsi=LNeGDYOjiQV_qE9f&t=234
The thing about Aragorn’s speech is that he and a handful of others there have known all along that the odds they’d be facing would be insurmountable, but most of the army did not. The whole (secret) point of the march on the Black Gate is to get Sauron to move all his forces north and give Frodo and Sam a chance to get to Mount Doom. After a week and a half of marching, the ring still has not been destroyed, and Aragorn knows the chances of any of them surviving the battle are slim. So he has to motivate his men to do their damnedest in what they can all now see is probably going to be their last fight. And boy, does he!
Aragorns speech is one of the most powerful speeches in cinematic history. Belongs right up there next to Picards speech in First Contact
Incredibly good. I'd include the President's speech before the battle in ID4 as well. There's cheesy in that movie, but his speech is the kind of thing you want to hear in that situation.
No further! …..the line must be drawn here! Part of Captain Picard’s awesome speech I think you were mentioning. Something like that, anyway, For whatever reason I haven’t seen the movie in a while
Tolkien just nails this in his books. I literally can take a simple sentence and KNOW who said it in his books. I wish I could write period, but writing like him is almost a fantasy in of itself.
Have you seen The Great Dictator? The speech about humanity is the greatest and saddest thing every
@@SikhiJedi indeed. Poignant, inspiring, heartbreaking and every bit as relevant today
"Do you know why a stone cannot [float]?"
Uh, because stones (generally) have a density greater than water.
Metaphysical mumbo-jumbo not required.
How does this kid keep giving the best writing advice I’ve ever heard. I did college many years ago and many other things , and this kid in like two videos has condensed and made more sense than anything else I’ve ever seen.
I did college too, learn me write good.
He got a lot of it by viewing brandon sandersons course. He made a video about that.
Aragorn’s speech has always been the best way to convince everyone around you saying that it’s natural to feel this fear but don’t let that affect who you are and stand up to it. THAT is the representation of a great leader! Something that most modern leader characters don’t have.
Too true. Because at least in the Western modern world, we've come to equate fear with weakness and strength with blind faith in one's own abiliities.
Aragorn, Theoden, and even the president from Independence day made HUGE impacts on me in terms of great dialogue! I got chills from their speeches!!
We will not go quietly into the night!
@@janettedargy7941"We're going to live on! We're going to survive! Today we celebrate our Independence Day!"
The Pacific Rim speech is also underrated: "Today, we are cancelling the Apocalypse!"
Man…you can tell the power of good dialogue is at work in LOTR when I’m tearing up and getting goosebumps 5 seconds into watching Aragon’s speech and I’ve seen the trilogy 1000 times now. Lol
My favourite speech in a film is the presidents speech in Independence Day it gives me chills.
Establishing my character's ghosts was a huge game changer for me. By doing so, I was able to get a deeper understanding of each character's motivations and build their character and story through meaningful dialogue.
Conan’s prayer to Crom, Vigo’s phone call with Aurello and his introduction of John Wick. Al Pacino’s locker room speech in Any Given Sunday and Ben Kenobi’s conversation with Luke about his father’s light saber. Gandalf’s conversation with Frodo about pity in Moria. Tywin and Arya in Harenhal. The Hound’s second encounter with the Brotherhood without banners. These are some of my favorite dialogues.
I'm no professional by any means, but I do think the "As you know" set up is, like anything, a tool: one that can be used either properly or poorly. Ive definitely had things I already knew repeated to me and I've done the same for various reasons. The problem is its usually just the one reason: give the audience an info dump.
But you can do more with it. Maybe you're establishing character because the person being told is so absent minded; they actually need to make sure they were listening before. Maybe its a lead in, establishing a base knowledge to build into some new info. Like, "Ok, you know how we have monsters in those woods." "Yeah." "Well, they've started to mutate." "What, how!?" A very oversimplified example, but it establishes base knowledge to the audience, then presents something genuinely new that the other person needs to be told.
I feel the same about many story telling tropes. It is not bad because it is a trope. In fact, they're usually trope because theyre so effective when used right. Like any tool, it is the use or misuse that allows you to build effectively.
For eragon a simple "when will I see you again?" To "will I see you again?" Conveys much stronger emotions of longing, it also shows he speaks like he grew up on a farm instead of a castle. I feel it carries stronger subtext of him being powerless to make this meeting happen on his own so when they do meet it carries stronger impact. I think that one change would have made the entire dialogue feel a lot more organic.
The Narnia scene a lot of the dialogue was given by Tilda Swinton which is going to make a difference in how it comes across. You can give great dialogue to an awful actor or have a bad director and the words will fall flat. I just learned the other day that Sean Connery was originally going to be Gandalf. While I really enjoy him in a lot of things I don’t think he would have been great in that part
Great examples! You should do a comparison between the dialogues good/bad of GOT, comparing seasons 1-4 and 5-8
Not a bad idea
Speaking about Lord of the Rings and how dialogue should be used as “last resort”, I would point out one of the best lines in the history of cinema, in a scene that never stops giving me chills:
“My friends… You bow to no one.”
No congratulations, no “you are the heroes”, no “thank you for saving us”. A simple phrase, great music and an awesome aerial shot. Perfection.
I can't believe you only have 18k Subs, this channel is hands down the one with the best advice on writing I have ever found. Always to the point, informative and no useless "top 10 things your character having orange hair could change about the way they drink their coffee in the morning"
The thing with Aragorns speach is, that it is a speach and not a conversation...
So a lot of the things that would normaly not work in normal dialog are working here, because speaches are meant to be inspiring, are meant to stay in the mind a little longer. Aragorns speach feels verry poetic, but it is believable because Aragorn is a verry poetic character
Years later.. and I still tear up at the "For Frodo" line.
Years later and I am still a bit pissed that it is not "For Frodo and Sam"...
5:50 Ahh yes, the famous "do you know why a shite floats..." scene from RoP. I wish this show never existed.
Excellent video! I've heard a lot of this advice before, but I kept watching the video, and realized why the dialogue in one of my stories feels so stuck. I think I can get back on the right track now.
Your advice is always solid mate, thanks for sharing
The fact that Aragorns speech gives me and most other people goosebumps every time we watch the movie says a lot about the writing and quality ❤️
I‘m first, I suppose. xD Nothing better than writing advice with a cup of tea in he morning!
A wonderful way to start the day
That scene with Galadriel and her brother is where I started falling asleep lol.
It's always hard for me to use dialogue in writing. While it is indeed such an amazing tool that can and should accomplish multiple things at once, the problem lies exactly there, that in writing more often than not it becomes a glaring artificial construct. In real life most dialogue is broken, disjointed, random, it meanders and often it's role is just to fill the silence. Most dialogue is imperfect, often resulting out of boredom or need to connect while in fantasy it is almost always perfect and well placed. I find it hard to reach the balance between the utility of the dialogue vs the actual need for it, especially in subtext. 90% of the time the moments that pull me out of immersion are the dialogue scenes.
So it seems writing and reading isn't for you. But then again, movie dialogue is artificial and constructed, too, so I don't know how you can even watch films and shows, which rely on dialogue even more than books do. I'm not criticizing you because you feel that way about dialogue but, you see, 99.999% people have no issues with dialogue in books/film/TV being not exactly like everyday speech. It never was and probably never will be, just like plots are never the exact reflection of life. A plot has a beginning and an ending, characters have arcs, random events that happen to characters but don't contribute to the main story do happen in real life, anti-climactic deaths do happen in real life. And dialogue is an element of the story, so just like the events themselves, it isn't random like it usually is in reality. If you want stories to reflect real life 100% you'll never be satisfied with anything because stories are constructs and people understand that so they easily suspend their disbelief. It has always worked like that. Even if someone created a story with dialogue that is exactly like real life speech, people wouldn't like to read or watch it, it would just seem messy, because life is life and art is art, they're not the same thing nor should be.
Don’t listen to that other person. Read George V. Higgins. He wrote extremely realistic dialogue that isn’t purely utilitarian or economical and it’s great. Then read Lovecraft and JG Ballard. They couldn’t write dialogue worth a damn and almost never bothered. They were both more successful than any commenters on this board ever will be.
Also, try to remember that writing channels like this and how-to books can only really teach you how to write stuff that’s the same as everyone else’s. And there’s value in that. It helps get you published, it helps with marketing. But how to write something different from what everyone else is doing can only come from you, from confluence of your reading, your experience, and your strengths and weaknesses as a writer. And it’s when something is different that it stands out and is loved. If you’ve got some inclination that runs counter to excepted views, good. It might mean you’re better equipped than most to tackle stories in a different way. Now you just have to figure out how.
Get to know your characters better. I used to struggle with dialogue and hated writing it, but now I find that if it feels boring or tedious, I need to talk to myself about why they're having this conversation and what all characters involved think about it. It won't necessarily all show up on the page, but it gives me a 3D view of the scene and what's on everyone's mind. Where did they just come from? Where are they going next? Are they comfortable with the subject, the other people, the setting? I have sometimes considered a single conversation from five different points of view. The better I understand the characters, the more crisp and unique the dialogue. 👍
Remember that neither dialogue nor characters are accurate portrayals of reality. They're tools for conveying the story.
Thank you for the information! This will definitely help me with my book.
This video was very helpful for me as a beginning writer and applicable to all other styles in my mind. It was to the point and very well said. I am a new fan and would love to check out more of your helpful wisdom. Thank you!
"I'm you and you're me and this is a gun" is one of the best worst lines ever.
Great video. Lots of interesting and useful advice. I wonder if we could someday get a video that compares dialog in novels to dialog in movies. My hypothesis is that the written word feels shorter than the spoken word, so written dialog can be longer than spoken dialog and still feel about the same. When we watch a movie, we're getting a lot more than just the words; the actor's facial expression, voice inflection, body language, camera angle, lighting, background music, etc. All of which can enhance (or detract) the actual words being spoken. That's why writing a novel is much different than writing a screenplay -- no? Would love to hear others' opinions and ideas about this. Thank you.
Love your video! Clear and straight to the point!
This video was very helpful. Thanks for the clear illustrations.
Aragorn's speech works because it is MONOlogue. Those same words would be prosperous in actual dialogue.
Oh yeah, one of the best ways to figure out if your dialogue works or not, give it a day or so and then go back and read it out loud. Amazing how dumb you can sound when you thought it was wonderful on paper. but when you read it aloud, you know what sounds right out of that character's mouth and what sounds like : What the heck was I thinking?
It never fails to give goosebumps even after all these years
this is so cool. i started drafting a fantasy story last year after years of loving fantasy but not knowing what to do with it. sometimes i feel like im just thrashing about, not knowing how to move my story and characters in a great way. this is great content for me to figure out what to focus on and what can be pushed to the sidelines. subscribed!
Another great speech is Yoda explaining the force to Luke. The way he describes it draws you in and doesn’t feel like a massive info dump. By the end, Yoda gives Luke a powerful lesson in patience, determination, and self worth.
I feel Qui Gon Jinn deserves it more.
Thank you for the video. What is so cool about Aragorn & his army is that they knew they might all die. The reason they were there was to distract the enemy enough so that Frodo could destroy the ring. Of course, Gollum ended up destroying the ring, which brings up what Gandalf said to Frodo about sparing Gollum's life. All of that dialogue reflects each other. The trilogy is not perfect, but it does have a lot of wonderful dialogues that you can connect with other dialogues in the story.
Never seen any of your videos but I noticed Oathbringer and Rhythm of War in the background so that's a good start :)
Jed this was an amazing video! I love how you brought in those who are taking the writing course to get their take on the dialogue, and just your overall approach to these different fantasy films. You've gained a new subscriber! 😄 Will definitely be checking out your books!
Glad you enjoyed it, Shell! Have fun with the books
The last point on your "good dialogue" list, I think varies very differently between movies and books. In a book, two people can have a long conversation and that's a perfectly fine way to tell your story, whereas in a movie you can show it much more easily, and you have limited time, so you need to show as much as you can.
I also really disagree that "on the nose" dialogue is always bad, sometimes people do just say what they're thinking. However, people generally don't expect this level of honesty, and other characters should react appropriately.
The fact people sometimes talk “on the nose” makes it realistic but still not necessarily relevant for book/movie. It still has to be used purposefully.
That's what both gave the scene from Eragorn a feeling of intimacy and flirtation, and also felt inappropriate. If a noble woman was going to bare her soul, even to a hero, she would probably feel uncomfortable just from lack of practice, and not want to shout it out in the open for anyone to hear.
I've always thought that M. Night Shyamalan had terrible dialog. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's something just off about it at times.
Aragorn’s speech has always given me full body chills, and I never fully understood why. Thanks for laying it out!
Your examples of good dialogue are SO spot-on. I got such nostalgia for LOTR watching this...
Not specifically about dialogue, but I heard somewhere that everything you do when writing should advance the plot, characters or setting, and ideally more than one.
I disagree. Fleshing out the world is important too. A conversation or scene can go nowhere plot wise but add things to the world.
@@BJGvideos you mean the setting?
@@ClayHales Setting, characters (in a way that doesn't advance them), general feel, etc.
The Eragon one could be a lot better, if not saved by some direction from the director and some acting from the actors.
We should have in mind that Eragon was written by a teenage boy. So, while certainly not great, it has sort of an excuse to feel derivative and flat. He was still at the beginning of his career. I'd actually be excited to hear what he can write now.
ahhhh i'm so happy you included narnia, its so underrated!
Wait, you only have 18 thousand subs? There's no way, this video was so well made!
Great video, I learned a lot.
There is one thing though that is not really helpful. That is showing scenes from movies instead of reading from a book. A movie can deliver the dialogue with accentuation, with music and with the actions of those who speak and those who listen or answer/ reply/ react. All this stuff has to be written by an author, has to be put into words. A movie doesn't have to do that, it can show it. When speeches like Aragorn's or the freedom speech in Braveheart move us so much, that is at least partly because of all the additional things like music, sound, vision. Would it move you the same way if you read it? This is where authors need advice for.
It's a very good point and something I was tossing up whether to mention in this video. Maybe if I do a part 2 I'll focus only on text scenes
@@Jed_Herne Great idea, I would love to hear your take on that.
Les be real. Viggo is a fantastic actor and they coulda given him crap on a stick and he'd've made it rock.
Loved the video! I think a great follow-up video would be to take the two scenes with poor dialogue and rewrite them with better dialogue that still accomplishes what the original scene set out to do. It was helpful seeing good dialogue vs poor dialog, but I think it would be really helpful to see a poor scene turned into a much better scene and be able to talk about why you reworked the scene the way you did. I know you touched on this some when discussing the bad scenes but I think a total rework of the scenes would be a very informative video!
Huge fan of your siege of Trebolaine game. I didn't know that was you but it makes a lot of sense
A lot of what you guys say isn't natural is exactly how me and my friends talk xD
Very open about feelings and such. Because we hate misunderstandings.
Also my ADHD ass with memory issues repeats a lot.
So maybe there is some nuance that would depend on the character. Cause this does describe some real people with some real relationships. Just not all of the characters. After all humans are not all the same.
Yeah exactly. I'm very direct and up front for that reason.
I'm autistic and I feel this so much, maybe all my characters are nd as well then
@@jyjaeskz I tell ya. People make things so much more complicated than they need to when they're indirect.
Eragons books are pretty good
I'm glad others like them too.
Thanks for the video :) Your coaching sounds really interesting. I like to add to Aragorn's speech, that the music in this scene really tackles the emotions and is not underestimated. I'm not sure how his speech would feel without music at all. That would be interesting to explore I think. If it's still as strong without the music then it's good :) Another tip which I learned from theater is to read a text, dialogue etc. really neutral, like you would read a manual of something. If it still hits you emotionally then too, it really IS great writing! :)
Sending you creative vibes :)
In the process of building up to starting a fantasy novel of my own. Dialogue is my greatest nemesis - but this has eased my nerves about it! Your videos have been invaluable in my journey so far!
Good luck!
I found basically everything irksome about Eragon, but one thing that was really irksome was that Arya looks nothing like she does in the books. In the books she's an elf with curly black hair and startlingly green eyes. In the movie, she's a human with straight red hair and shiny black eyes.
00:28 🗣️ Bad fantasy dialogue is "on the nose," lacking hidden meaning or subtlety, spelling out characters' desires explicitly.
00:55 🔄 Avoid repeated statements or emotions in dialogue; each line should progress the story.
01:08 🎭 "As you know" setups, where characters explain known information to each other, feel artificial and fake.
01:21 🗣️ Steer clear of convoluted language; avoid overcomplicated phrasing or extravagant word choice.
01:36 🔄 Avoid contrived setups where one character's statement exists solely to set up a clever response from another character.
01:50 📚 Beware of info dumping; while dialogue can describe elements of the world, overuse can disrupt the reader's immersion.
02:31 🚀 Good fantasy dialogue propels the story forward, serving as a tool for characters to achieve their goals.
03:00 🤔 Great dialogue operates on three levels: what's said, what's unsaid in the character's inner voice, and what's unsayable, even to themselves.
03:28 🎭 Develop personalized dialogue for each character, ensuring their unique voice is recognizable.
03:42 🌍 Dialogue should convey information and world-building naturally, without becoming too realistic or cluttered.
04:10 📢 Reserve dialogue as a last resort for conveying emotion, information, and characterization; prioritize other methods first.
06:13 🎭 Ineffective dialogue is on the nose, lacking depth or hidden meaning; it explicitly states emotions or thoughts.
07:25 🗣️ Effective dialogue flows naturally, with characters engaging in dynamic exchanges rather than passive monologues.
08:59 💡 Good dialogue conveys deeper meanings beneath the surface, allowing readers to interpret and uncover emotions.
11:25 🤝 Dialogue should seamlessly blend world-building, characterization, and theme, creating a multifaceted narrative.
16:57 🪶 Epic fantasy can infuse high stakes with relatable characters, creating a powerful sense of grandeur and emotional connection.
I've wanted to hit the dislike button more than once while listening to these propositions.
Very nice lesson. Well done!
The amounts of Jed Herne is this video is overwhelming.
"Do you know why? A ship floats and a stone can not?"
Me: "Because its made of wood? What are ya on about?!"
My legit reaction first time watching it lol
I know. It's a silly comparison.
We all know that ships float because they weigh the same as a duck, duh.
My next fantasy novel, Kingdom of Dragons, is out now!
Check it out here: bit.ly/kingdom-of-dragons
Good job mate. Btw i feel like this apply on everything, not just fantasy 👍👏
Good session. Enjoyed it a lot. (UK)
The ROP dialogue, despite the excellent delivery from the actor, makes NO sense whatsoever. That’s the biggest problem with it. The idiot showrunners knew LOTR was the gold standard, & were mimicking it with no understanding whatsoever.
I dont know if your dialogue in this video is good, for instance, all your students just tell you how they feel about those examples... there is no subtext, come on Jed
Great video! Thanks for posting
Amazing episode