Crank no-start: Massey Ferguson Diesel
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- čas přidán 23. 08. 2024
- PHAD gets a service call from a local farm to look at a tractor that refuses to start. It's a 2005 Massey Ferguson with a modern 3-cylinder diesel powerplant, made in Japan.
Let's see if we can get this beast to fire up, or at least pinpoint the problem... armed with only a wiring diagram, let's learn-as-we-go!
Enjoy!
There needs to be one of you and Eric O in every town. The two best I've seen !
Then I would hang out at his shop all the time and we wouldn't get any work done haha
Thanks for the Video. Very helpful and easy to follow . You just saved me a ton of time and money I knew nothing about . My tractor died 1/2 mile in the woods and I was able to get it going thanks to you !! Part is in order and I am sure I’ll be able to get it done . Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
Well done Ivan! You are building an excellent reputation for debugging electrical problems on diesel farm tractors. You solved that starting problem with the Oliver 1600 earlier this year and now isolated the fuel control solenoid as the problem issue on the Massey Ferguson.
A real challenge of your skills would be solving electrical and starting problems with John Deere diesel tractors made from 1958 through 1968. Those tractors used a 12 - 24 volt electrical system. While running the system operated on 12 volts but during cranking it used 24 volts at the starter. Those systems were trouble prone with lots of electrical gotchas!
Great video. A friend called me with this problem and I told him that this is probably his problem. Then I found your video and sent it to him. Good video. Thank you for sharing it.
Good work Ivan.
Even with the newer electronics covering basics pays off.
Fuel supply always a good bet particularly on a diesel that has not been running regularly.
keep up the good work and many thanks for the TRIPOD, has made the videos much more pleasurable to watch.
Brian & Shotty
That was impressive Ivan. You went right to that solenoid like you'd seen that problem a dozen times! Thanks for taking us along.
Well we could skip spark and go straight for fuel on this one lol
I really don't know why I enjoyed this video so much. Thanks Ivan.
Because the mechanic applied himself rather than throwing up his hands. Smart kid. I wish we had more mechanics like him.
Good to have you back Ivan. I enjoyed the video, it was something different than normal.
He mentioned starting fluid. To start some diesels after someone ran them out of fuel we would take a rag and pore gas into it, ring it out and then put the rag over the intake. When you cranked it, it would start but it would knock bad until it picked up the diesel! Thanks for the video.
I once took apart a start solenoid on an old outboard. Cleaned the contacts that were blackened from the juice/no juice routine and where I had drilled out the rivets, put some screws in there in place. It was working years later. Electricity takes it's toll sometimes too soon especially if the contacts are not stationary. Then even if they are then you have the corrosion issues to keep an eye out for. Again very enjoyable and great diagnosis Ivan !
As a camera man, you make a good mechanic.
Hey great job on breaking it down & finding the problem & the solution , I have a M-F 1526 ( 2018 ) but pretty much the same Iseki 3 cylinder diesel & she is a great compact tractor. I saw the tractor & said myself that looks similar to mine & that's why I watched the video , But I was impressed that it ran on only 2 cylinders . Thanks for the very informative video & maybe a future reference.
Brings new meaning to "working in the field."
Thanks Ivan, I've got a little 3 cylinder Iseki/Massey Ferguson. no real problems in 11 years.
Boy if I ever get a tractor I will need to learn a lot of stuff. Thanks Ivan good job buddy -John
Very fun video to watch. Again you have overabundance of common sense , combined with experience , and education, you figure things out quickly. Great job !
Glad you enjoyed it! ;)
Another cool tractor diagnosis Ivan thanks for the great video
Great stuff Ivan it will take me months to watch all your videos , but I’m loving them all
Excellent diagnostic Ivan. I have a similar tractor so I'll be keeping an eye on that one. Thanks and welcome home.
Great job Ivan , I also have a MF so this will come in handy down the line thanks ! BTW those engines are typically made by Iseki in Japan ,good engine.
I have a 451 massy they usually come with Perkins engines did but I think they just use the Perkins in bigger tractors iseki is a good engine forsure
Mine is a 1970 40B. 4 cylinder Perkins. Still runs well. Shut off is mechanical, pull cable in the cab.
Just give it a shot of the good stuff, according to Eric O. That'll fix anything. Damn good video Ivan!
E-I-E-I-O! To the Massey Ferguson we go! I like seeing this kind of stuff with the farm equipment since I work on this kinda stuff a lot. Thank
Nice one Ivan. It's amazing years ago it was just a lever for on/off. Not an expensive part . Cheers 👍👍
Hey Steve! I'm actually having a surprisingly hard time sourcing this solenoid on the internet...might have to go with an aftermarket Chinese knockoff!
It's a common part. Not hard to source at the dealer. It's used across the world MF will have it . I believe its about $250
Holy crap $250?! Is that Canadian dollars? Find me a link Steve I give up!
motoYam82 this is the outfit i use, www.usautoelectric.com/solenoid-_-fuel-_-shut-_-off/
motoYam82 sent you a link probably went to your spam folder
Nice touch to have the horse in the back ground at 12:04. Looked like he was making an attempt to photo bomb.
nice troubleshooting ivan your very smart !
Good job Ivan no parts required like always peace out
Sound like Kubota engine, sticky fuel solenoid... Cannon issue. Great diagnosis Ivan
NASA ... "We have a rocket ship over here that won't fire." Ivan ... "do you have a wire diagram ? " NASA... "Yes we do! " Ivan..." tell them to suit up and get there space icecream ready we are launching in 10!" Love it !
mmmmm space ice cream!
Ain't it the truth. No start on a diesel tractor solved in 10 minutes! Awesome.
Ahhh you got there eventually.
Surprised you thought initially that the shut of coil would be energised with the key off. Imagine all those flat batteries on diesels if that was the case. ☺ Good logical thinking and testing got you through in the end and showed that with common sense you dont need to be experienced on a particular vehicle type to get the job done. Standard testing methods applies across the board and is all that is needed. Good job
Thanks. Yeah obviously the fuel cut solenoid wouldn't remain on all the time, I thought just a temporary on-time to stall the engine out. Turns out it's even simpler than that :)
all sorts of different strategies to do the same thing -internal/external, single wire case ground ,2 wire case ground, 2 wire 1 hot one ground,3 wire one pull in one hold in one ground, then there is energised to run and energised to stop. some use a timer. some use a timer and a relay. like those if in doubt pull it out and run the rack manually.
Well done Ivan! John Deere used a thermistor in their pull in circuit on the early 2000's compact utility tractors. They are soldered on a pigtail behind the fuse panel. Ask me how I know. If you run into one someday they are switched on the negative side. Keep the videos coming!
So why a thermistor?
Ivan, thermistors are a passive electronic device that changes resistance as a function of temperature. In the JD application the thermistor allows high current to flow to the "pull in" winding of the fuel shutoff solenoid for a few seconds. They high current flow causes the thermistor to heat and increase resistance to reduce the current flow through the pull in windings. I am guessing the Massy has the same device in the timer module.
Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Best regards, Alan
@@atschirner A similar thermistor application is used on the start winding of a refrigerator compressor. A good jolt of 120VAC gets the compressor started, but the series thermistor quickly heats and cuts juice to the start winding while the run winding connected directly to 120V takes over. Before thermistors, this action was completed with a current relay.
@@reecenewton3097 Thanks Reece, I haven't been in a compressor start circuit since tech school. Makes sense, lower cost and more reliable than mechanical contacts in the relay.
This could be my favorite video yet
Why is that Keith? I was disappointed it wasn't a CAN network issue or something more exciting ;)
2 reasons one is you knocked it out of the park on that one. Second is that it's something different . We both love learning
Funny you say that, once the wiring diagram came out I was like, oh yeah gonna be a good one! lol
One Diesel engine I worked on had a system similar to that.Electric switch had to activate to let engine start,but the engine maker had thought of failure,put a screw in plunger on the pump.If the solenoid failed mech could turn the screw in try the engine.when engine started you knew what problem was.Only thing was the only way to shut engine off was to screw the little plunger back out,turning the on off switch off would not stop the engine.
A push pull cable would solve that issue.Thank you Ken.
Yup, and it should be incorporated into the throttle. Pull past idle to kill it. That's too complex...
That's what Massey gets for replacing a mechanical plunger with an electrical one.
That's the way of the 21st century - take a simple part or component of a system, then, add electronics to make it complicated, expensive, and failure prone. Keeps guys like us working, at least. :)
It's all about "safety"...the engine shuts off if you get off the seat!
Yeah, that's the other fun part of the 21st century! Lots of safety devices ...
Most of those drive me nuts haha
I hear that! Me too. I bought a new Husqvarna z-turn mower a couple years back - first thing I did was run a long zip tie over the pressure switch in the seat. :)
Great stuff Ivan, you can turn your hand to anything
Love those tractor videos!!
Cool wasn't sure if people like branching out into non-automotive, but I think it keeps things more interesting :)
Great video. Thanks for posting that. much appreciated!
I have the exact same tractor, year, and problem. Thanks for the video, I am going to try to fix it today.
Thank you Ivan. Same problem with Massey ferguson 6028 ( new tractor) . We fix new solenoid valve, Tractor started, but we get another problem . Solenoid valve is heated and melts wiring
brave man putting your finger into a diesel injector pump ! nice diagnosis
Nicely done Ivan, Cheers,
Best tractors made!!
Good work Ivan!
i have the same tractor and problem, i will be checking this tomorrow
this was my problem, thank you!
Great walk through
How did you get the solenoid off? I can't get my hand in there let only an allen wrench?
Nice one Ivan, what's next a steam engine, you could do a job swap with Keith Rucker, that would be a hoot.
I remember Diesel cars having a fuel shut off solenoid back in the 90's. My old boss Had a Rover Diesel that wouldn't shut off as the valve was stuck in the on position. Had to bold it on the brake and let the clutch up to stop it until he got the new valve.
Good thing it wasn't an automatic ;)
well done you petrol heads struggle with diesel ,good diagnosis also often farms are not so careful about clean fuel and servicing so fuel blockage is a consideration
good work you have knowledge in DIESEL GREAT
Haha, well that was different! And yet, not! Just proof that if you have a solid foundation of troubleshooting skills, it doesn't matter what you're working on. :D
Customer had same problem with his john Deere power on would not engage solonoid to allow fuel to engine. Good indicator that this is your problem I know on john deeres when you are trying so start should be some black smoke out the exhaust none on this one replace the solonoid black smoke and fored up
The fuel solenoid should have power because in its default state it shuts the p pump off. In order to allow the pump to flow fuel to the injectors the “pull” terminal pulls the solenoid inwards, then the “hold” terminal keeps it pulled in and the timer tells a relay to shut off the power to the “pull” terminal. At least that’s how it works on a yanmar diesel so I’d figure most are the same. I have a Perkins 3 cylinder that is doing the same thing yours is, cranking but no start symptom and it’s all pointing to the fuel solenoid having no power to pull the rod in so the pump will feed the injectors instead of bypassing to the return line.
I have a Massey 3 cylinder Perkins doing the same thing, what was your fix?
Nice job Ivan
This also my issue, bad solenoid, pulled it out and it started right up. But my issue is that even with the key off, the solenoid is hot to the touch, so its pulling juice whether the key is on or off, so my solenoid might still be good, if its not cooked, but what ever is providing it power is the issue. Just bought this tractor, Massey 1230.
Hello
I'm wondering if you can give me the electric plan that you showed in the video? I think I have a bad starter and I want to see the circuit.
Or at least tell me where to find that plan.
hi!! i got a MF1533 ANS I THINK I GOT THE SAME PROBLEM , NICE VIDEO ,ILL CHECK MINE THIS WEEK, NICE!!!
Just worked on my 1529 massy tractor . I just taped the high pressure plungers and it.released.
Dont jab the wiring terminals with the test light, use a proper test lead. You'll stretch out the terminal and cause a wild good chase looking for the issue
Job well done
Fuel selnoid coil needs to be on to get fuel,shuts off when there I low oil pessure. Just open fuel manually because the coils fail. First thing you check on all diesels and you don't need a wire diagram
Same thing on a JD 2210 I’m working on.
What is the part number for this exact part? and where is the best place to find it?
Thanks for the video! I think I have the same issue. How did you remove the solenoid? I can not get mine off. Thanks
It's probably the cam position sensor if it's went bad it won't start
Branching out to some real vehicles! Nice fix
It was a good change of pace from modern cars which are basically plastic wrapped in tin foil with lots of wires and modules xD
More videos! More weird stuff!
in case anyone else with this issue and a similar agco tractor like my 2006 challenger mt265b the part number is 6242128M1 and itll run about $253. theres also a gasket for it that cost me $11. there are similar ones on ebay for yanmar tractors for $18 but im not sure if they fit they just look similar in the photos. the bolts are 5mm hex wrench.
my new tractor had 148 hours on it, wouldn't start, pulled air filter, started right up, so ordered new air filter, feel like a dummy
@motoYam82 well done
Diesels all run and start by the same diagnostics. Too bad, today they are burdened by all of these electrical and electronic controls. Somebody told me a long time ago that diesel engines and electronics should never be together. Good diagnosis.
It depends on the application. On a simple farm tractor, maybe we don't need electronics. But in something like a semi truck, the electronics is great. You get cruise control, progressive shifting, diagnostics, much better fuel economy, much simplified gauge panel integration, etc. Once they get the emission stuff figured out, we'll be all set.
At the shop I go to, the number one failure on over the road semi trucks is electronics. Anything and everything that can go wrong will go wrong. I had a fuel control pcm go bad on my truck and $3000 later I was able to pull a load again.
I do believe in electronics and when one day if they become absolutely reliable, it will be a great day.
I'm having the same problem on my 2008 MF1533, looks to be the same set up. Problem is I cant find that solenoid online. Any suggestions? Thanks
Contact your MF dealer.
Just worked on my
Don't do a continuity test. Use your volt meter.
You can start now
That is a iseki tractor rebranded to massey ferguson
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I thought Putin was going to keep you there to troubleshoot the limo.
This: czcams.com/video/uQO8OqiyZnA/video.html
Amazing job ahaha i love it
Well I'll be darned, rearin chickens and ducks. growin some corn and raisin cattle, why are,nt you wearin your dungarees ?
Mahindra dra glow plug 135 dollars each no joke
I TRY WITH ETHER WONT START TOO
90 % of all vehicle problems are electrical as makers put more and more electrical crap in them.
Could that solenoid have a diaphragm that leaked, and contaminated the electric coil- or is the coil just weak? Could it be taken apart, cleaned out, resealed? If man has hard time locating the part- maybe try here- www.yesterdaystractors.com/
I might tear the old one apart to see what failed. Just surprised that parts for antique tractors are more readily available than this Japanese rebranded machine...
Just a hunch but I'll bet it's the timer gone wonky. it's either too fast or non-functional. And for all we know that coil is open. Having several episodes with shut off solenoids myself, you can imagine me pointing you to the problem as soon as I saw it had one. Next time you'll get on point even faster. Nice one Ivan.
I actually did some bench tests on the old solenoid with a scope...pull-in coil amperage was very unreliable: sometimes nothing, sometimes 7A but still not enough oomph to pull in the plunger. Also timer would emit a high-frequency electrical squeal lol
motoYam82 Overheated windings. Fried.
More likely just crappy construction to start with, they really aren't interested in giving you value for your money anymore, they just want your money. That's way too much amperage for that purpose, it's shorted across it's own windings then. A little baked on spar varnish when it was newish would lock down the windings and then they don't rub themselves into this condition. But that would have costed an extra nickel so no soup for us. But like Ivan pointed out to me a long time ago, that's our bread and butter, they pay us to fix em. Thanks for the follow up info, Ivan. I always love an autopsy report.
You are lucky its not a common rail 😁😁
that would have been more fun...More stuff to scope, like high-voltage fuel injectors ;)
+motoYam82 hahahahaa yeah recently im trying to learn as much as i can about them, like INLET METERING VALVE, pressure sensor signal more than 1 volt for the ECU to sent the injection pulse ☺️
+motoYam82 maybe in the future there are only a small number of videos troubleshooting non starting common rail if you can upload something about it 😀😀
А ГДЕ ВЗЯЛ ЭЛЕКТРОСХЕМУ¿
у владельца была сервисная книжка :)
Old Russian technology!
not realy....
lol too many wires!
😍😍 he’s so handsome 👀🤤🤤😈
that mf on the hood doesnt necessarily mean massy furgeson lol i once drove 50 miles on a no crank just to disengage a pto lever. smfh
richard cranium richard cranium a guy once paid me 45 bucks to come his house and plug in his tv
you know with the load-pro I would have been done in 5 minutes on this job . load-pro test plush button no voltage drop in harness crack fuel Line on this old not New Diesel no fuel check for air leaks no leak your done! fuel shut solenoid fault .
Alright you bring your LoadPro and I'll bring my stopwatch. Ready, set, fumble!
BTW with a testlight I was done in 15 minutes, including making this video! xD
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