Everything You Need to Know About Your KTM 1290 Super Duke R, RR, EVO's Rear End
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- čas přidán 11. 07. 2024
- Learn everything you need to understand about how changing your axle position throughout the eccentric range of the KTM 1290 Superduke R, RR, and EVO swingarm not only changes your rear ride height, but your whole motorcycling experience. Ride height affects how your motorcycle turns, how it drives, how stable it is, and most of all how much fun it is. Understand how changing swingarm length on a KTM 1290 Super Duke, by selecting the best gearing combination for you, changes so much more than just your gearing.
Introducing the exclusive Superduked, Gearing / Ride height / Wheelbase Chart. This chart will help you predict what sprockets you want to use in order to put your axle where it best suits your riding preferences.
Understanding your gearing choice better will also help you choose which Superduked Link to buy:
The +10 superduked.com/products/10mm-...
The +20 superduked.com/products/20mm-...
The Superlink superduked.com/products/race-...
To download the SDR ECCENTRIC CHART that I made follow this link:
superduked.com/
0:00 - Introduction
1:35 - Single Sided Swingarm Challenges
7:25 - How Axle Position Affects Rear Ride Height
10:51 - How Axle Position Affects Wheelbase
12:48 - Free Axle Position VS Ride Height Chart
14:36 - How Axle Position Affects Your Motorcycle Feel
18:04 - Comparing Shortest Wheelbase to Longest on your SDR
20:46 - Racing 1290 SDR with Too Little Trail
21:54 - Racing 1290 SDR with Too Much Trail
22:51 - Why The Superlink Improves Your KTM
23:41 - How Gearing Changes Also Change How Your Bike Handles
24:39 - Anti-Squat Explained
27:22 - How Anti-Squat Helps Fight Wheelies
30:08 - How Rear Ride Height Makes Your Bike Feel Lighter, Turn Easier - Sport
Thanks for another fascinating yet detailed explanation of the deeper handling mechanics of the Gen III SDR - And of opportunities to improve same - Awesome work studying and developing all this and then sharing with us all - Be very interested to hear what Mattighofen/Pierer and Co think of your design development work? - I'm sure that you've already done enough to qualify for a suspension/chassis development mentor/guru role at KTM! Your presentation style, storytelling and editing are great too. Keep it up!
Thank you brother that's inspiring
KTM give this man a job! Great tutorial about the beast 3.0
Yes please anything but carpentry thank you... 🤣
Best superduke info on CZcams
Thanks for going the extra length and putting all the gearing/chain length combinations together!!! This is extremely helpful!!!
You’re very clearly passionate about this, and I’m here for it! Thank you for doing what you do for the superduke. My gen 3 loves you.
professor gogo, thank you soooo much for sharing your experience and knowledge. it's so valuable. i've learned so much from these videos. after implementing the suspension changes, my super duke works so much better. after five years and 18k, i finally feel connected with the super duke. it now works as an extension of me, instead of always struggling to get it to do what i want and, that's without yet making the sprocket changes which i plan to do in the next week. i had no idea that the sdr could handle like it does now. so fun. the bike's performance has dramatically improved and bike is safer and loads more fun. huge gratitude, my friend.
Thanks for doing all this homework I love my Superduke R 1st Gen.
Thanks heaps for sharing this info. I think this knowledge will help not only with my setup but also my ability to assess the bike and understand what is going on while I’m on track. Watching these vids before I install the linkages
Hey Eric you knocked it out of the park again, not just the practical educational part but the story time as well love it thanks to you & Gavin!
You are very welcome Mark! Thanks for the inspiration
Who knew you were a ktm 1290r setup genius. I knew. I’ve been following you sense we had the 990r. Love the videos.
Great work!
So glad I found you, picking up my gen3 in a couple weeks, and getting even more excited.
More super information, thanks, GoGo.
Superb video. :) I have the 20mm link-plates from Eric and for the kinds of roads I hoon here in Japan they're a big improvement.
That intro alone made subscribe dude. And I don't even have a KTM but they intrige me somehow
Your great to listen to..even though I have a 890r. Good info for sure
Amazing video, thanks for all the efforts. Best way to visualise “anti squat” is watch any sport bike dyno video when the operator goes full WOT… the rear lifts.
That is true, they do. But like everything else about going fast - it's all in the subtleties. How much does it lift, how hard does it lift, with what gearing does it lift more or less, what sprocket sizes help or hurt, etc, and on and on. Fascinating world of setup it is (Yoda said that first)
Your clock analogy is awesome! I needs some links for the ol Mille R!
Gogo with the phat SD knowledge again
Great work! I consider your videos one of the most valuable for SDR that one can possibly find! :) I am still sticking to good ol' Gen 1 so I cannot directly use your data, but it certainly gives some direction on what to work on. I will be getting some new sprockets soon so I will be able to do some tests with 112 links chain and 16/17 + 38/39/40. Don't have a tool like yours and will not have the spare time to build, but I can use the tail bolt as a reference point for the ride height. What is the best way to do the measurement - bike on the wheels under it's own weight, kept straight in a front wheel choke?
Love it
Thanks for all the info brother! I'd love to get ahold of one of your ride height tool so I can figure out my starting point with my 22 R Evo. I've just finished my break in service, and have to wait until spring here in Alaska... Can't wait to get to the track and see how the "Auto High" setting works at our "Tanacross" track.
I'm working on them now Akevelfan. Stay tuned. In the meantime I can help you to understand that the EVO adjusts rear ride height by winding more preload into the spring. This does result in raising rear ride height but in my opinion its not an ideal way to achieve this. A spring rate is a spring rate, they do not change with more preload. But you do change their characteristics when you add preload. You make them harsher feeling, because you eliminate the spring's ability to absorb less energy than the amount you "PRE"loaded it with. Does that make sense enough in just those short few words? If not maybe we just figured out what my next video should be about...
Hello! ! Thank you for your always great videos!I am 63kg(no gear).
Is 16/40/114, +20mm okay for my body type?
Amazing work Eric!! do you have those numbers on gen1/2? I assume they should be similar, but since we don't have the shock link, is there anything to be considered?
I don't have the same data on the Gen1-2. I would have to get my hands on one again and spend some time with it. I do think it is safe to assume that the eccentric part of the Gen1-2 is at least very similar. So you can effect rear ride height two ways - with a length adjustable shock, or by winding your axle down and back in its rotation. The later you get in the day the better. 🙂
Another very informative video Eric. I was wondering if you know your approximate front and rear sag numbers for the Gen2 set up you ran. Seems the SDR performs better with minimal rear sag. My Gen 2 has 6mm of static sag and 15mm total sag, me on the bike.
Opinions? Thanks in advance
Hi, here my to cents if I may.
Sags go hand in hand with spring rates too. Rear spring is inadequate on gen1, unless you are a superlight person, keeping in mind you don't want the shock to compress more than 2/3 of the travel (as Eric explained very well): max 120-130mm out of the 156mm of full capability.
However, the harder the spring, the lower the preload and the wider the sag range you can work effectively with. Also strong spring+low sag= rebound issues.
To make it short, If you can extend the swingarm (through shock length or eccentric/gearing) in order to avoid using the sag setting as a anti-squat adjustment, than you can have a wide range of sags that may work well, depending on the use (Road vs track).
I use a 180N/mm shock spring with 37mm rider sag (90kgs all geared, road use), 12mm ride height extension through shock extension. Rebound perfectly working even with hot temps and intense use.
My 2c
Thanks again, GoGo! I love my Gen 2 so much, I've thought about getting an Evo to go with it. Come next season, I am hoping to make some vast improvements on mine.
If you don't mind me asking, would the SuperLink work on an Evo?
Yes +10 and +20 links fits the R, EVO, RR all the same. The one hickup that I need to solve is naming the links differently. The "Superlink" is supposed to refer to the complex link kit for use with aftermarket shocks and exhausts. The other two, the +10 and +20 links, they are designed to work with stock exhaust and stock shock, on all versions of the Gen3. I thought about naming them "mini-links" but I owned a Mini Cooper that broke down a lot so I can't go there... :-)
Watching this video makes me want to remove the electrically adjustable setup on my Super Duke GT and go to Super Duke R suspension. Is there any way to do this without needing to buy the whole fork/rear shock setup?
Great content, both parts superbly presented.
Main reason I'm looking to change my gearing is simply for the speed relative to RPM that I tend to ride at. Bike gearing feels a touch tall.
I'm looking at a 16/40 with a 114 chain or a 17/41 with 114 chain
But watching this gave me ideas about maybe wanting the bike to turn in a bit quicker. I know this is a bit open ended and totally open to opinion but in your experience for street riding / country roads 60mph twisties, would the 16/40 114 be to aggressive a change from stock regarding flickability/stability. I get that the acceleration will also be alot quicker, I'm hoping the longer wheelbase will help with preventing wheelies on drive out of the corners.
If the above is too aggressive would a less aggressive 17/41 114 be a smarter choice as there is a smaller change to all 3 variables (acceleration/trail/wheelbase length) from stock?
My heart says 16/40, my brain says 17/41
Any feedback welcome. 👍
I'm a go with your heart kind of guy, Frasier. In the raw sense of it. But I do appreciate the science as well. Enjoy it in fact. So let's compare the several differences you will experience between the two: 17/41/114 is 612mm swingarm length, which is 7mm longer than stock. That will help keep load transfer from lifting the front on acceleration, a bit. And coincidentally (not - because I'm sure you chose this purposefully) it is basically the same height as stock - so same trail up front. You'll have more load on the nose which will help with confidence, but in my opinion you are still sitting in the same arm chair this bike was built to handle like. ...Now if you choose 16/40/114 instead, now you are making even more differences to your chassis. You've gained 4mm rear ride height, and 10mm swingarm length. This you will feel. For sure. And in my opinion, and from the street feedback I get from my Sport Link customers, you will be very happy with the bike this way. Adding 10mm rear ride height to a Gen3 SDR increases your trail from 107.7mm to about 105.5mm. That is still a ways from what I consider "neutral" steering (101mm) but it's a good step in a fun direction. I sell more +20 Sport Links than I do +10, because apparently everyone agrees with Jeremy Clarkson's "MORE, BETTER, POWER" theories. But anytime someone emails me asking for advice between the two, I always say try the +10 first. And your gearing change to 16/40/114 will give you, height wise, what the +10 link does. The Sport links also are more linear than the stock link, but for now at least you'll have the +10mm. ...But what about gearing as far as speed, RPM, performance. As you also say, I feel the Gen3 is not only too tall considering gearing, but also the time between gear changes is too long. So shortening that up with a 16/40/114 will help you quite a lot in that department. Really wakes the bike up in my opinion. Science says the 16/40/114 is a ratio of 2.50 (17/41 is 2.41). That will be a +3.5% increase in torque and a -3.5% loss in top speed (which is misleading because in my experience our Gen3s can't reach their theoretical top speed with stock gearing anyway). The only downside to this big jump in gearing is first gear. It might feel a bit short. I launch from 2nd but that's in racing. I think I'd still use 1st for the street. Hope it helps, GoGo
@@superduked33
Great feedback and much appreciated... It started with me looking for some advice regarding ratio changes on the KTM SDR Forum to help cure my tall gearing issue and someone posted a link to your PDF. Turns out I knew less about my bike than I thought I did, I had no idea that the changes to sprocket tooth count and chain length would have had such a potentially dramatic effect to the bikes geometry and subsequently how it would handle. I had no clue/knowledge about "trail" prior to watching your part 1 and part 2 and as a result of this I didn't want to upset my bike by changing the geometry too much but wanted to make the bike less "chuggy" in 4th/5th/6th (especially 6th). The 17/41/114 gearing choice and link count was as a direct result of looking at the PDF chart you made as it didn't move the rear height much (again, didn't want to upset the geometry) from stock and increased the wheelbase by a small amount to help keep the front end down with the now increased application of torque and acceleration that comes with gearing the bike this way...
HOWEVER with this said, having now watched your part1/part2 a couple of times to get my head round the physics of what is happening to the bike, I have found myself thinking about how sometimes It feels like I have been wrestling the bike a tiny bit in the corners to get it to turn, not that its a bad handling bike by any stretch, it feels really good, but, much like the gearing, there is without doubt a lot of headroom for improvement. This is where my thought process began to contemplate the 16/40/114, I'm hoping my thought process is correct that raising the back enough will effect the trail enough to give me the added "throwability" in the corners in conjunction with increase wheelbase to help keep the front end less wheelie prone driving out of the corners to compensate for the increase torque/acceleration, that's my thinking based on what I have heard and observed on the chart, please correct me if I am wrong.
Regarding the 1st gear for street use, the bike has more than enough torque that short shifting 1st into 2nd is not an issue for me if that is the case going with the 16/40/114. In all honesty, I find myself short shifting a lot on country roads anyways as I really like the throttle feedback and how the engine feels in that 4000-8000rpm range. The dyno torque figures back this up when I look at them, the motor has soooooo much drive...
based on your feedback above, it's looking like the 16/40/114 may be what I go for...
Does this also apply to the gen 2 and can the 10mm link fit on a gen 2 as well?
Hey Eric, I have a 2021 Superduke RR and have just installed the Super Link and its made a huge difference. Thank you so much. I have just received a 16/42 set from sprocket specialists and before I install them I was wondering if there was any particular benefit in installing a 16/41 combo rather than the 16/42?
Thanks Jonathan. If you study the charts that I made for everyone, you can see that there are more than one combinations of gearing and chain lengths that relate to your question / answer. For instance a stock chain can't fit a 42, only a 41. A 114 link chain can handle both. And a 116 chain can't handle either. This is important information to help you decide which way to go. You have a Superlink, so YOU can maintain any rear ride height that you prefer, regardless of sprocket sizes or axle position. But what a Superlink can't do for you is make your wheelbase longer or shorter - that's up to your chain and sprockets. The shorter your wheelbase, the more weight is on the rear. The longer your wheelbase, the more weight is on the front. I like the feel of more weight on the front. I also like the way a longer swingarm helps keep the bike from wheelieing. It doesn't stop it of course, but it helps it. So I would, and I do, prefer a 41 over a 42 - for wheelbase. But if you were stuck, for instance, on a 42 rear sprocket because you just so happen to LOVE that gear ratio, you could use a chart like this one to calculate a different sprocket combination to arrive at that same ratio:
sprocketcalculator.com/
But as you can see from those charts, the only realistic sprocket combination that is close to 16/42 ratio (2.63) is a 17/45 (2.65). But when you apply this new combination to the charts I made, you will see that 17/45 with a 116 chain gives you almost the identical wheelbase as the 16/42 114 chain. So there is no point.
...Or is there! Recently a data guy challenged me with the idea that a larger front sprocket will pull higher RPMs up top for you, and a smaller front sprocket will give you better torque down low. And since our SDRs struggle at higher speeds, I of course tried the larger front sprocket theory, at the same ratio as the 16 that I had been using. What was the result? Bullshit. The bike was slower everywhere.
Hope this helps!
Do you make a rear link for the 2015R, and can you suggest a repair kit or replacement for my Rear brake master cylinder, thanks!
Unfortunately the Gens 1 & 2 don't use a linkage system. But there are lots of things you can do to improve the handling of those generations. They can be brilliant actually. Go to my 3 part series on those generations - I share every change we made. ...As for the rear master I don''t know off hand. I'll ask though
Hello GoGo again a great video thanks for the explanation! Very interesting!
he goes it to very detailed information about the cam mechanism to change chain slack yet never show it.... you can clearly see that he has the tools, knowledge and ability to show how its done.
I got my new sprockets and I can't seem to remove the front sprocket. It's hitting the inside of the frame before it comes off the shaft. Any Ideas? Its a 2015
Do I see an aftermarket conventional swing arm in the future? Maybe from the Rc8r?
interesting thoughts. Let's see what the Gen4 brings first...
Sub’d. Just make a deal on an evo. I don’t race but I’m very particular about ride quality / set-up so these videos are very informative.
I ordered the linkage from your website
I have a 2020 super duke r
I’m 240 with full gear
Please tell me which rear spring I should change to
From the original
OEM spring is an 85. I am 200lbs without gear and race with a 110. But I am likely hitting bumps at higher speeds, so need a stiffer spring than you for the street. If I were you I would try a 100. At the very least a 95 (N/mm). I know they have 85,90,95 for the OEM shock. Not sure on 100s
This stuff is incredible. I only wish you had products for the gen 2. I have a 2018 that I'm basically refurbishing from nose to tail since it was an abused race and road bike. These links would be pretty awesome.
You can get there my friend. I still prefer my Gen2 as far as handling in many ways. I made a two part series, on this channel, on exactly what I did to my Gen2 to make it handle like a Gazelle
@@superduked33 That's awesome. I'll look through the videos and see what I can find. For your gen 2, did you have any issues with the cylindrical cone in the rear cylinder intake cam coming out? Mine got completely chewed up with plastic particles going through the entire engine. By the grace of God I was able to buy a replacement. It was the last one in the US and I was looking for at least 6 months for one.
@@RubberChickenMan007 no I did not. However I did lose a cam chain tensioner which did cause the cam to skip a tooth…. 🤮
@@superduked33 yeah, about that. I replaced mine with the dirt tracks tensioners haha. I don't need to learn the hard way. Are you in the East Bay btw? I'm in Foster City. I saw your mechanic is in Livermore.
i have gen2 and, using gogo's tips, i've got that bike pretty dialed in, the bike is incomparably better handling and i haven't applied all the tips yet. watch his other videos. i used want a gen3 and now, thanks to gogo, the gen2 runs awesome.
I Love kTm😁
Hello gogo, so in short putting the sprocket to the furthest location with longer chain is going to ride better right?
Personally I prefer the SDR with more rear ride height. And rotating the eccentric back does increase rear ride height.. Yes. But it also lengthens the wheelbase, which also effects how the bike reacts to your input. So really, changing the height is best done by changing the height - either via a length adjustable shock, or a Sport Link. Changing the height with turning the eccentric back and down, also does other things than just ride height. Make sense?
@@superduked33 clear! Thanks gogo
Hi Eric, does this apply to the gen 1 / Gen 2 superdukes? I’m planning to do the 17/41 (114 chain) upgrade.
I can't say for sure YET. I have to measure a gen1/2 first before I offer you useless guesses. I will have my old gen2 back here shortly (YEY), so I'll go over it then and post up
@@superduked33 thank you sir. I noticed you mentioned in the comments to other followers as well that it most likely is the case. I will give it a go :)
Will still be looking forward to your post if you ever decide to get the data for the gen1/2.
Thank you for all you are doing for this community.
So is it possible to have a good front fork using wp has your Friend has done ? Many superduke here in France have muppo cartridges. I never saw modified wp , even superduke rr one's. Seems like crap.
I love my stock WP forks with GP Suspension cartridges. They give me excellent feedback and feel. I wish I got a chance to try the MUPO cartridges but I never did and now its too late unfortunately.
Does the Evo take this problem away as it will automatically adjust the ride height won’t it?
EVO adjusts ride height by changing spring preload. This is not a great way to adjust height, because preload determines where the travel of your shock is. Ideally you set your preload to put your travel perfectly inside the window of your shock's travel. Once you get that right you never change it. Ride height is best changed by other means - like a different link, or shock length, or an adjustable control arm. But never with preload. Because if you lower your ride height by backing off on your preload setting, like the EVO does, you can bottom out your shock. Or if you raise your ride height by winding more preload in, you can top out your shock. Neither is ideal. Ride height is ride height. Preload is preload. The two are best considered independent of one another.
Is the 1290 SDR 3.0's reliability as atrocious as online forums and long term tests (the latest from MCN) suggest? Oil leaks, coolant leaks, hydraulic clutch problems, switchgear problems, TFT display problems, etc?
I’ve raced the gen3 for 2.5 seasons. Really hard too - lots of races lots of miles and several championship wins and losses. So far here is my list of problems/failures:
1 - shift bracket came loose on shift shaft. Solution - Tightened bolt / locktite / solved.
2 - clutch sometimes gradually doesn’t disengage 100%, have to pull lever all the way to the grip. Solution - crack bleeder at clutch master with lever pulled. Solved
3 - electrical gremlin causing dash to go black / TC stop working / no shift assist. Solution - underside of tail section had rubbed a wire sheathing off causing a short. KTM fixed for free
4 - there is no 4.
Motor is bullet proof. Electronics are brilliant. Traction control is exacting and incredibly useful - even at it’s least intrusive setting which is the only setting I use (1 of 9). The clutch gives such great wear that I still have spares in my bin because I never need to replace it - and I launch races from 2nd gear! The SMOTO mode of abs on the brakes must implement throttle somehow because the rear steps out on very hard braking but only slightly, very consistently, and very controlled. Ton of fun actually. Electronic shif assist is brilliant - but can be clunky if chain is too loose. (That’s more of a user issue than a KTM issue).
After 2.5 seasons I am about to tear the motor down. I will post a video showing internal parts conditions. Should be interesting.
Thanks for reaching out
@@superduked33 Thanks for the detailed answer👍
@@motozest7856 I forgot we did experience one other problem. Oil leak related to the oil level sensor wire that runs through the plastic oil fill fitting. The seal around that penetration point - where the wire goes through the plastic - developed a leak. We replaced it and never had an issue since. Mine is a 2020. Maybe they improved and replaced the original part. It did look different at the point of entry. …on a side note, after being as intimate as I was with the gens 1&2, the gen3 seems very different. Almost get the impression that KTM hired a completely different crew of engineers to design and build this version. You can tell when you take the bike apart. Totally different approaches to many different areas of the bike. Airbox, bodywork, fuel tank used to be plastic now it’s steel, subframe is nothing like prior generations, things like that. Other core parts though have carried over
@@superduked33 I have a ‘20 SDR and it’s been great, only problem that recently popped up was your #1 problem… the shift linkage came off the shift shaft. It happened on the way to the shop for routine maintenance. They just tightened it down, on way home, it came loose again, limped home. I put red locktite on it (the strongest I believe) and torqued it down. I’ll see how it is next season. I’m going to mark it on the bolt and the frame and see if it starts rotating out. Thanks for all your info.
@@kmfiz You nailed it brother. Common problem, even on the previous gens. But for some reason seems worse on gen3. I never tried red locktite because red scares the shit out of me. I use blue often though and haven't had a problem since. The only drawback to red is it's really f'ing hard to take off. But in the case of this part, maybe that's a good thing... 🙂
"KTM only list 16 and 17 tooth front sprockets as being acceptable and only the 38T rear as the bikes electronics are using the road speed and readings from the engine speed and position of the gearbox for calculations. Using sprockets other than the above will affect the readings and may cause the bike to become unpredictable. Its advised by KTM not to fit sprockets outside this range."
Quote from a KTM dealer apparently. Be interested in your thoughts on this, do you think there is any truth in it.
Thakfully for you I have already been up and down the library of sprocket combinations with this bike and its younger siblings. Never an issue has come of any of the combinations I have tried. TC works exceptionally well throughout, ABS, shift assist up and down. Never a problem. HOWEVER, I did also try a 15 countershaft sprocket and found the only time you can use that small a size is when the eccentric is up around 12:00 or you have a larger rear sprocket - like 41 or above. Otherwise the 15 rubs the chain on the pivot point of the swingarm - but only when the bike is light on its feet, like cresting a hill at speed with the suspension unweighted
@@superduked33 Thanks Eric, I thought as much but knew you'd know for sure having been "up and down the library" as you say. Not sure why KTM would put that info out there ?? especially as its so easy to disprove. Stories lose nothing in the telling as they say. Thanks again you're a fountain of knowledge 👍 Loving the vids btw, really interesting stuff, thanks for taking the time to share.
At only just 5ft 9 ill have to see how the extra 10mm would effect the seat height
Thats worth a measure. I should have done that. The ratio of shock to swingarm travel on the Gen3 SDR is 1 to 2. Meaning for every 1mm the shock travels, the swingarm travels 2mm. So if you go by that, the seat will be 5mm higher. I'll measure it next time I'm with the beast and post results on the superduked.com site. Great point you raise Darren
@@superduked33 thanks for the quick reply hopefully that should be ok. 👍
Also loving the content