KTM 1290 Super Duke R, EVO, RR, Suspension: What Nobody Else Knows But You and I
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- čas přidán 2. 08. 2024
- A fun story about sensitivity, and how it pertains to motorcycle suspension setup. How some racers like Miguel Duhamel are hyper sensitive to motorcycle setup, but other riders are not sensitive at all - yet they can both be fast regardless. Understand how your sensitivity might play a roll in choosing which link to buy to enhance your KTM 1290 Superduke's performance.
Learn about stability vs instability. How you can achieve either, and why you might want to.
Learn how wheelbase can play a huge role in your motorcycle's tendency to wheelie out of turns instead of driving hard out of turns.
Introducing the exclusive Superduked, Gearing / Ride height / Wheelbase Chart. This chart will help you predict what sprockets you want to use in order to put your axle where it best suits your riding preferences.
Understanding your gearing choice better will also help you choose which Superduked Link to buy:
The +10 superduked.com/products/10mm-...
The +20 superduked.com/products/20mm-...
The Superlink superduked.com/products/race-...
To download the SDR ECCENTRIC CHART that I made follow this link:
superduked.com/
0:00 - Describing the "Edge" of feel and reaction to your motorcycle at speed
9:56 - Deciding between +10 or +20 links based on your sensitivity
11:06 Comparing longer swingarm setting VS shorter swingarm
17:15 - Introducing the SDR ECCENTRIC CHART
21:15 - Why you need a steering damper when you have less trail
29:20 - Upgrading your Steering Damper
32:29 - My Experience with Short Trail and Instability - I've had NONEkkk - Sport
The analogy of the two different types of aircraft was hysterical. But you got the point across and that’s what counts!!!!!!
Started racing in early 70’a in SoCal. Carlsbad, Orange County Raceway, Ontario, Riverside and the rest of the bunch. Sears and LS were truly murderous. Different times. Moved to all kinds of cars and raced them for years but motorcycle road racing was and will always be my first true love. I cannot believe how much things have changed. I still bare the scars of just how dangerous everything was back then. From tire and suspension technology to tracks!!! Broke more bones but kept coming back for more. It’s an amazing sport!!! Currently have a tricked out VTR 1000 and two beemers I keep for sentimental reasons. But lusting after one of your 1290’s!!!!!! Your videos are excellent. Keep em coming!!!
ahhh... it was nice to hear a mention of Jeff Curtis. I met him the summer before he passed and always enjoyed riding with him. We did a lot of street riding together and he had an old Harley that he adored. Man, that thing would shake like hell at speed and I'd be behind him on my N650. We'd stop and I'd say, "dude!! that bike is wobbling like crazy..." and he would smile and shrug his shoulders. Miss him.
Thanks for sharing all the info, makes a lot of sense,
No wonder when i swapped the stock shock with an aftermarket one with 15mm more length, it made the the bike turn much better... This laymans explanation pretty much nails it!!!
It’s not the infos i was searching at all, but i learn a few things, very interesting and very well explained 👍
Just found out about you today a man am I hooked to this channel it’s absolutely amazing.🤩😎
Very informative thanks. I only started in the sport late and enjoy the analysis part of what makes for a good set-up.
Thank you for this! As a long time SDR owner, getting the damn thing to turn faster in the mountains has always been the biggest struggle. I’ve been relying on muscle and sheer force of will for years..
I feel your pain Snake. Hope this helps :-)
Great tech talk 👍
Love learning this stuff thanks GoGo!
Great info, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I'm getting a gen 3 in a couple of weeks, looking forward to trying out your set tips 👍🏻
Congratulations Tom, I predict you are going to love it. Especially now armed with some good help and understanding. Took me some real time to find my way on these bikes and I am sincerely happy that the efforts here are helping others. Feel free to reach out anytime - you can email me directly off Superduked.com
Eric love the channel. You do an unbelievable job of explaining. So much information. I have never watched an episode and came away saying to myself “ I don’t get it”. Or still have questions. Your knowledge and the guys you bring on occasionally is unfathomable and so useful whether someone is riding track or street.
Thank you
Wow you just made my week. Thank you
Such great info and very easy to understand explanation amazing video
like it a lot.. thanks bro..
Thanks GoGo! I second your experience with the WP steering damper. I mounted it, couldn't feel anything, sent it back to WP because I thought it had a defect! I also second your comment about the lack of headshakes - even at the hard bumps at ACS the bike has been more stable than anything else that I have ridden before (and I have set up my bike 30mm higher in the rear as you recommend for track use)
Great to hear Anton. Thanks for the feedback and shared experiences. Being at +30 also unfortunately also means being at sub-ideal trail numbers. ...That's why I am currently neck deep in the next 1290 SDR upgrade for all of us to enjoy - adjustable offset triple clamps!!!
Great video. Loved the explanations. Plan on getting a Duke this spring and having watched your videos I know I'm on the right track. I've been on R1s for 9 years and was worried about changing over. Not so much anymore.
It''ll be different but I'm confident you'll love it
@@superduked33 Different? That's an understatement! They are entirely different class bikes.
love the way you narrate, I'm super sensitive
Excellent information !!! Thank you for taking the time to explain all this and for all you do for the SDR community. Good to know about the WP damper. That was going to be one of my next purchases and now I think I will go with your suggestion of the Mupo. I ordered the 20mm a while back and still haven't installed it. I might want to try the 10mm first now.
MUPO might be tough now, I think they shut down. Shocks are basically impossible to buy now but dampers might still be possible. There were many out there
@@superduked33 I did find one. But knowing that I better pull the trigger on it. Also, if they shut down maybe not such a good idea just in case?
@@Cherny146 They're pretty simple devices actually. Just a piston and some valving. Any decent tech could service or rebuild one. But I get what you're saying. There are other manufacturers that make good dampers too, I just can't say personally if they're great because I haven't used one myself.
Love the content - you do a great job explaining concepts ! also, has anyone told you that you sound a little like a combination of Teddy Atlas and Christopher Walken?
Extremely interesting discussion. Motorcycling is all about feel, and acutely about feel "on the limit", wherever that is for a given rider. I'm not a fast rider, so I don't necessarily know how a given change would affect the feel in the zone near the limit of traction, or how it would relate to a lap time. However, I'm all about appreciating the feel of the bike. There are plenty of easy things to adjust and NO reason you should ride a bike, even on the street, on which you don't like the feeling.
I feel what you are saying and I agree with you 100%. Someone recently asked me if they really needed to extend the limits of the SDR. I responded, "It's not only about extending the limits of the SDR. It's about increasing your feel, and therefore you joy of riding, throughout the entire range of the SDR's use"
@@superduked33 Absolutely! I've just picked up my second SDR, a 2022 EVO. The new ride height settings, adjustable on the fly, are awesome. As soon as I bought the bike, I jacked up the rear to the top setting and haven't taken it off. Really picking up what you're putting down about the height of the rear of the bike.
Great series of videos, thank you. I love my gen 2 and I'm now doing my winter service work and making changes after your really interesting shares.
You talked about the rear going soft thru the stroke so you used heavier springs on the shock. Could a progressive spring help this or is that a no no?
Possibly Andy, but I never experimented with that so I can't say for sure how progressive it would need to be or where. Keep in mind though that this "collapes" only happened to me in extreme conditions that even I struggled to repeat regularly. Had to be a very fast pace, a very fresh tire, and a sticky soft compound at that. But that combination, when it all came together, was f'ing crazy to experience. Repeatedly - straight off track into the mountains and desert at 100+ mph
Thanks for everything, as an data guy this helps me alot. I plan to buy the 2024 1390 Duke, I'm hoping your links will work...
Oh don’t worry. If the 24 uses links I will make aftermarket ones to improve it. Not knocking KTM but manufacturers have too many considerations for too many different scenarios of riders and speeds and skill levels and weights - to make one link appropriate for all.
Not sure whether to get +10 or +20 running 16/38 gearing 112 chain. Currently have the forks raised in the clamps. So maybe i should get the 20 and put forks back to stock hight.???
Awesome explanations, I love the way you share your experience!
I have a SD GT (Gen1 based), I daily drive it as well but I love throwing trackdays on it!
I felt completely identified with that feeling of wanting to beat the thing with a stick on turns 😂. Since the suspension is electronic do you think increasing the preload would help?
Thanks again for sharing your passion, un abrazo from an Argentino in Spain
I've never ridden that bike, and especially at speed, so I can't say for sure. But if you are feeling what you are, the bike won't finish turns, then yes. Most likely your ass is dragging as you throttle up, your forks are extending as a result - giving you too much trail - and you have to wait on the throttle. Have you tried using a stiffer rear spring? Is yours OEM? What is your weight? I just made a two part video series on springs and travel and preload - how to choose them, adjust them, and what they are important to get right for you. I would watch that series and then take some steps forward.
Thanks for all the tips man. I was able to come in 2nd at my first race at Arroyo Seco Raceway against a couple factory bikes and semi pro racers. Going with the 16-40 sprocket setup for the next race. Superduke for life!
Are you kidding me Alex!!?? That is brilliant! Tell me how you had your SDR setup? What made the difference and how?
@@superduked33 Well, I'm still waiting for the Link that you sell for my Gen 1 so I can change the rear shock and truly adjust it but Just Listening to everything you say about squat and rake/trail really seemed to help. Not just setup but my riding. Im sure my measurements are not dialed in like yours but I have the rear wheel as far back and down as it allow me to set it and I basically set the stock suspension 1 click out on everything.
What is your top speed with 16/41 sprockets?
@@superduked33 Any tips on Which rear sets I should buy? I need a little more lean angle
@@alexwhatley1190 I am very happy with the Gilles rearsets. I have tried other leading top brands including another German made set. Nicely built as well but the Gilles has a shorter more precise throw, gear to gear. I never miss shifts. My buddy has the other brand and often misses shifts. But he is far too educated to listen to me…. :-)
@@superduked33 Thanks Man! I'm sure you never mess around at a little track Like Arroyo Seco but I would love to see you out there some day. They love the hooligans out here!
Can the hub eccentric be completely reversed to run the axle at the very bottom of the “clock face”?
I love your suspension tips you should really be on KTM's payroll! Not sure if i missed it or if you ever posted it, what do you run for exhaust and tune for the Gen 3?
You didn't miss anything, I never mentioned what exhaust or tune I use. It's kind of a sensitive situation that I have not spoken on, but I've experienced a lot of exhaust system issues over the years I've raced these 1290s. First with Akra, then AR. So many failures you would cry if I told you. But now I'm back with Akra and on the Gen3 they really nailed it. I think the newfound success can be attributed to the system now being bolted in more places than it was on the Gen2, Or maybe they're using thicker titanium. Or both. But either way, whatever they did, I have not had a single issue with Akra on the Gen3. For tunes I simply use the KTM track pack. I have not tried anything more advanced or experimental. Yet
if i going for 16t/40t should i go for 112 or 114 ??!!?!? what else would u recommend thx
I changed from a 190/55 to a 200/60 rear tire and felt like it made a similar impact to rear height and front trail. This was on a Monster 1200s. I’d be curious if you could weigh in on rear tire size changes and their impact
It's true for any bike any place, changing tire dimension, especially circumference, can and will impact chassis attitude. There are more variables to consider in addition to circumference - but more data is needed from the manufacturer in order to calculate them. For instance, how much does the contact patch impact axle height at the recommended pressure? I run my Michelins at 19psi cold, so they would sit lower than a Dunlop of the same "size" with 36psi. Before we have that data, from the manufacturer, all we can do is guess.
Hey Men.. The way you share so much passion about this is very inspiring. Thanks!
The tittle include Evo version.. will it mess with the custom settings (tech pack) meaning computer issues to add the linkage ? ?
The only evo part that is different from the R or RR considering the rear suspension is the shock. My link replaces the oem link. Hard part for hard part. Personally I do not see how the ecu could pick up on the +10 or +20 height difference. I could be wrong though so I’ll look into that and get back to you.
No computer issues by adding the linkage Juan. Good question though, thanks for asking
Great!
Im in👍 probably start plus 10 .. and share my findings.
Thank you.
Mind me asking where you source your tail fairings and front plate/headlight replacement? I’ve got a Gen 2 and am having a hard time finding them.
Or shoot, do you have any old Gen 2 race spares that I could buy from you?
Try these guys, they may have a solution for you: www.ccracinggarage.com/shop/product/ktm-1290-super-duke-1st-gen-racing-fly-screen/
How did you work out you needed a 114 link chain over day a 115, 116?
I’m wanting to do this for my gen 2 when I change the sprockets but am unsure of change length needed?
First, chains come in even numbers, so we only have 112, 114, 116 options. I ran a 114 link chain with a 15/40 sprocket combination - which put my axle in a location that gave me the best drive and feel. 116 was too long, the eccentric did not rotate far enough to take the slack out. The 112 was too short, made my swingarm length too short which put too much weight on the rear and not enough on the front. Its all about balance. 15/40/114 gave me the perfect balance on the Gen2. Plus it pulled the hardest with this gearing up high on the long straights. Taller gearing killed the motor - I was a sitting duck, even for 600s. But with the short gearing we could fight
I see you ride with the powerparts (orange) tripleclamps. What do they ad? Are they lichter? Are they more stiff or less stiff? Or is it just looks?
That is an excellent question. I used to hope they were a different offset, but they’re not. I used to hope they’re stiffer, in fact I’ve even read that multiple times, but I’m pretty sure they’re not. Definitely lighter, I’ll give them that. But mostly they are orange. You nailed it. …FYI: I am very close, a few outstanding tweaks, to ordering my adjustable offset triple clamps for this SDR. They will also be orange, or black, have impressive range of adjustability, a different design steering stem, tapered bearings, and be more rigid. Very exciting stuff, testing prototype again next week
What weight oil would you recommend for the WP aftermarket stabilizer? To me it currently doesn’t feel stiffer than the stock one.
I feel your pain. Had exactly the same experience with the WP. I use the Hyper Pro now. Used to use the MUPO but they're gone now. I do not know what oil they use but it felt light. Maybe 5w? Try 15 to 20w, I bet that will make a difference for you
Another great video, thanks. I've tried to contact Mupo in Italy about their AM01 steering damper but have had no reply. I contacted WRS in Italy, one of their dealers who have some of the dampers listed on ebay (not for KTM). They have replied informing Mupo "has definitely closed it's business". 🙁 I'll try another dealer to confirm this.
Yea about a year ago rumors started circulating in the underworld that MUPO was being purchased by another company. Seems that never happened. I think they’re another Covid tragedy. Sad to see because I think their products were excellent. And beautifully made.
Hey Gogo this info is freeking priceless man.. Us SDR owner’s really do appreciate this…. So i have a question…. Can I lengthen my swingarm length if im still at stock gearing?
Yes you can, but you need a longer chain in order to do that. If you download the chart you can look up what length chain you can use, and where it will put your swingarm length and ride height. Go here, scroll down, follow the download link and (hopefully you will have the data that can answer all of your questions... IF I built this right). :-) superduked.com/
Oh ok cool thanks man.. Kinda sucks bc i did a Stock gearing 520 chain & sprockets couple months ago.. had i know I would’ve kept my chain longer and done this back then 😩
@@revvaddictz I feel your pain brother. I wish I did this back in 2014 while racing the Gen1. WTF took me so long? Wait don't answer that. Lazy and unorganized dyslexic procrastinator who only takes notes on cardboard boxes and Walmart receipts which I never find again - nailed it!
Smh i told my Ktm mechanic i wanna move my swingarm back and he said im gonna have less tip in lol
I think I explained it wrong!! Told him i wanna put a 114 link chain.
Was I supposed to say i wanna something different lol im terrible at this
@@revvaddictz After watching these videos you know more about setup than your mechanic. Email me if you need any special help. 🙂
Hi Superduked, Who did you get the Gen 1 15T and 40T spockets from, I cant find either one from KTM or any aftermarket companies here in Canada yet? Thanks in advance, love your videos!
I got all my gen1 sprockets from sprocket specialists. Here is their site: sprocketspecialists.com/
@@superduked33 Excellent, thank you!
Awesome explanation of bike dynamics.
I've been struggling with the handling of my first gen KTM Gt ('17). Then I realized that my rear SAG was between 50 to 55mm... WTF? I'm not that fat!!! Just 80kg. How in hell can WP or KTM fit a spring that weak? Electronic suspension stuff, you know...
By the way, that's the most terrible drawing of a Viper I can think about😂😂😂
Congratulations for your vids
Only thing I can guess is some bean counter averaged out the weights of the age categories that they guessed would buy Superdukes, and got all three wrong...
Thanks Eric for all these excellent contributes.
One question: the gen 1-2 came STD with the same 17/38-112links chain as seems to be from this video the gen.3.
However the wheelbase is 13mm longer (1495mm vs 1482mm). From the chain length and sprocket toothing we have to assume the swingarm length is the same between gen1 and gen3?
Also the rake of the gen3 is steeper and the trail 4mm shorter.
Where the wheelbase difference comes from then? I thought it was the swingarm length. Can you confirm the swingarm lengths and the chain links are different between gen 1 and gen3?
Was the chain 112links in gen1?
Thanks a lot
(i have to guess they moved back the pivot point other than rising it in the frame.
However, being also the engine declared to be 38mm higher in the frame, with the new wheelbase i was expecting the swingarm to be way longer...)
@@rossanodimonte2520 I have to do some research on this Rossano. There are some major differences I know, because I could run a 15 countershaft sprocket on the Gens 1-2 but I can only do that on the Gen3 when the axle us up around 12 o'clock. When its down at 2 o'clock the chain hits the top of the swingarm pivot when the suspension is unloaded. I'll get back to you on this
@@superduked33
I have done some researches about the differences between gen 1-2 and gen 3 frames.
Let's start saying than all late generations of hyper naked have a similar pivot height.
If we measure it vertically from a horizontal baseline connecting the wheel axis, this results to be between 90mm and 100mm. It can be easily measured scaling the side pictures of any bike.
Checked out RS1200, MT10, tuono v4, SF V4.
I Do not need to be accurate here, only try to get the general idea.
The swingarm angle affecting the (anti)squat will depend on the swingarm length as well, but the SD is and was already the longest one, around 600mm, followed by the SF V4.
The gen 1-2 only have HALF of the competition common pivot height, at about 57mm, yet with the same swingarm lenght.!!!
It required the pivot to be heavily lifted, as you shared in your videos.
The gen. 3 is instead in the same other's ballpark, between 90 and 100mm.
This math is consistent with the 2020 KTM's press specs, declaring the rise of the engine of 38mm compared to the previous gen1-2. 38+57=95mm
However they did not make the swingarm longer, being the transmission thooting (17-38) and the chain links (112) the same of gen.1.
All above means KTM lifted the whole bike, letting the swingarm drop additional 38mm.
But when you do that, the wheelbase would shorten, cause of the arc traced by the swingarm...and instead they declared it to be about 10mm longer!!
Being the rake and the travel very close between gen.1 and 3, we may assume the extra wheelbase length comes from increasing the front wheel distance (longer projection of the same steering rake) which moves the center of gravity backward again and lightens the front wheel.
They added some weight in the front and slightly reduced the rake and trail by using a 200mm tyre instead of a 190mm.
The drawback of increasing the anti-squat is the higher tendency to wheelie, which has to be compensate by increasing the weight in the front or the swingarm length. It seems they did not do any of the two on the gen.3, cause the wheelbase is already very long.
Also a high anti-squat effect increases the tendency to the shock pumping whenever the traction is lost cause the chain pull is suddenly no longer compensated by the rear axle push.
But this is now more difficult to feel with modern traction aids.
Eric, my question to you and your valuable racing experience is this:
Did you find the gen.3 bone stock to be more prone to wheelie but still understeering, yet with a good mechanical rear grip?
Maybe the reason for you needing to lift the back on gen 3 is more about loading the front than increasing the anti-squat and the rear grip.
You said it took a while to make the gen 3 as effective as the gen1, i am now curious which were the odds you found when starting racing the gen3 and which were the solutions to make it faster.
Just for the sake of the knowledge and trying not to be fooled by press specs shit..(not a mistypo here).
@@rossanodimonte2520 I question the theory that increasing anti-squat increases a bike's tendency to wheelie more. My experience has been exactly the opposite of that.
The worst characteristic of the Gen3 in stock setup for me was roll speed through turns, and its tendency to go wide on exits. I can't compare Gen2 vs Gen3 - stock trim VS stock trim, because most of my Gen2 experience was racing with race setup. But our first four weekends on the Gen3 were in stock trim. And they were hell. They were slow. They were wide. And the bike's nose always lofted in the air down the straights and out of turns. In fact even shifting to higher gears. like 4th to 5th the bike would wheelie. So I began to experiment with my link and rear ride height, linearity, trail, spring rates, low vs high speed compression, and lots of data.
Bike setup is only 50% science. The other 90 is rider preference. You mention rear tire traction in your analysis. One would assume the more the better, right? Not in my world. I actually want less sometimes, to steer the bike from the rear while leaned over. I find it's much faster like this. Then once I stand it up and drive out hard the bike explodes out of turns - regardless of it having "less traction" than it might with a flatter swingarm.
Science is important and interesting and has inspired some excellent conversations at racetracks and beyond for me. But in the end it's mostly the union of science and rider feel that makes a bike work great or not. No feel = no speed, no matter how long or how high or how steep the "X" component is. That's my experience
@@superduked33
I agree with you 100% , setup is not an absolute thing but rather a personal feeling and preference. No question about it.
However there are general tendencies due to evolving technologies of tyres, electronic aids, etc.
The increase of power and tyres grip, took the nowadays geometries more toward the stop&go riding style: long wheelbases and swingarms, wider tyres, high COG (flickability) etc.
This is opposed to the high turns roll speed geometries, which instead requires short wheelbase, narrow tyres, low COG, etc. things you still find in lower class race bikes.
And you are right too about your (and mine for that matter) experience with the reduced wheeling achieved by lifting the ride height. This is not in contrast with the theories, it is actually very in line with them.
The subject here is very subtle, cause lifting the rear affects many variables other than squats which effects mix up togheter.
Taken alone, what the literature calls “positive squat ratio R>1” means that the combined system of forces of the chain pull and the forward traction, will (try to) compress the swingarm and the shock.
BUT imagine for a moment a very rigid spring that would NOT actually compress: the traction forces will actually push the pivot down, opposing to the wheeling generated by the inertial forces applied to the COG.
Because of no actual squat (no spring compression in this instance), no COG shift nor weight transfer is applied on the rear tire. But we know this is not the reality.
A negative “squat ratio” indicated as “R
👍.......🍻
Why not use the 6 o'clock position with the stock setup to get more ride height
I love that idea but if you download the docs you will see the Gen3 SDR eccentric only rotates from 10:40 to 2:15. Tragically
Clearance of chain to the top guide/rail might be a problem?
using airplane as an example epic 🤣.