I have attended a few progressive Muslim gatherings and feel they are a much needed source of support for "marginalized Muslims" like LGTB Muslims among others. Also as a convert to Islam, I also cannot find community in the standard masjid and feel these progressive groups much more welcoming and accepting.
Matt White Wolf It is forbidden clearly. Here: And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?(80)Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."(81) Al-Araf 80-81
I understand you completely, but trust me they're are better Muslims out there. Progressive Muslims are mostly Hadith rejectors. Find a Muslim friend who is a student of knowledge. Then learn from them.
There's no such thing as progressive Muslim. That is to say you believe God created this magnificent world but he was unable to legislate for his creation. Audhubillah. Instead of water down your religion, start slowly and work your way up
The world would be a much better place if people like you respected other religions and the holy Quran which clearly states that this is forbidden. Its impure. End of discussion
She says religious Muslim at 7'24, and she makes it seem like progressive minded Muslims aren't religious. I don't think that was her intent at all, but thats how it came across to me. I know some very liberal minded Muslims who are very religious, they just see Islam in a more liberal light than their conservative counterparts. I think both sides should show respect for one another,at the end of the day, they are all part of the Ummah.
I have a feeling that was on purpose though I hope it was not. It reflects a way of thinking, people unconsciously internalize concepts of what things are. There are Muslims for instance that assume Muslims who don't wear hijab are less religious than Muslims who do, even though it isn't a requirement outside of the mosque. Many Muslims are only Muslim nominally and only practice Islam on the outside while internally they are far from Allah the Most High and from the Prophet (upon him be peace). It's good though you give her the benefit of the doubt though, I'm sure she doesn't mean it in malice.
"it would be waste of energy and time to debate with you regarding hadith and that is based on your nickname!!" There really is nothing to debate. The fact that the Hadiths were being forged for political agendas and was later being forged by the populace is historical fact. You're holding the Hadiths, a man-made text that isn't reliable to begin with to the same extent that you hold the Qur'an. You're clearly sinning. Oh, and my nickname doesn't reflect my religious beliefs. Sorry.
*continued* And they claimed the authority to make this evaluation. Beginning with Ahmad Hanbal himself, they compiled the supposedly authentic Hadiths. The most prominent of these scholars, al-Bukhari, is said to have chosen 2,602 Hadiths from a pool of more than 300,000. There was even a Hadith that said, "Eating flour cookies makes man stronger," and it is no accident that the man who put this forth, Muhammed b. Hajjaj Mahai was himself selling flour cookies.
Progressive Muslims do feel a connection to textual authority. They also read the text within its own context, for instance in the story Lot, and the argument they present, it is based on context that they don't read the story as a prohibition of homosexuality, at least not as we currently understand it. If we consider that this is the word of G-d, it stands to reason that G-d would have formally have forbidden homosexuality the way we find it explicit in Torah (the way G-d forbids things explicitly in the Qur'an). Ironically, even the Jews don't rely on the story of Lot for prohibition but on an explicit written law. Furthermore G-d did not destroy a city because people were homosexuals and the concept itself is incredibly toxic and dangerous for homosexual and non-homosexual believers. The idea itself is evil. There are obvious logical reasons why the "prohibition of homosexuality" isn't correct as well if we truly believe as Muslims that the Qur'an is the Word of the Most Merciful, Almighty, Lord of all creation but a reading of the Qur'an is plenty, and the internal ethos of the Book are clear. Progressive Muslims as any other Muslims, start with the text.
What on earth are you talking about? The Quran is literally (as it says in its verses) a guide to mankind. It says clearly what Allaah forbids and what He allows. A act of homosexuality which was so harshly spoken against by the Prophet Lut Alayhi salam as a sin which no one committed before them, this is a clear indication that this act is sinful then and its sinful now and specially when this sin was specifically mentioned and then their destruction was then mentioned in the verses that come after it. So in short, they denied God and they refused to stop the act of homosexuality and hence they were destroyed. Furthermore, the Quran commands us to leave our desires and follow and submit to the Will of Allah, the Creator of everything. So the Most Merciful is telling us and giving us a example of people that did X and refused to stop the act X and they were destroyed. Anyone that comes and says otherwise is without any doubt a denier of the clear cut verses. Also, the Quran tells us that it is Muhammad Sallallahu alayhi wasallam that explains the verses to us. the Quran says to follow the companions of the Prophet in faith and this leads to Eternal Paradise. How did they see these verses? Its clear, its not only forbidden, its a act of Zina which is a sin mentioned in the Quran that leads to hellfire. So have your opinions, but this progressive Islam is far way from the Quran and the lack of Arabic is also something which clearly does not help. FYI, its absolutely logical and rational to forbid homosexuality since its a preference that is not natural and it even is rejected in the majority of human history, may they be individuals that were exposed to religion or those who were not such as random pagans and so on so forth. So if it was something human saw natural, it would have not been issue to even those who were not influenced by Abrahamic religions.
@@paulthomas281 I had a very constructive discussion from my side by actually being objective and very academic. After i bursted the bubble and refuted the fantasies, the individual i challenged that had so much to say was very silent after that. Thus i wrote my previous comment. This exposed the level of intellectual dishonesty this individual has. As for your comment, it also shows intellectual dishonesty. You don't care about the facts or that i was being very factual and bringing scientific studies and academic references to support my claims. *All you did was take my last comment and acted as if i am being childish when in reality, i was spot on* . So instead of responding to my entire discussion, you rather cherry pick and try to make me seem like the one doing the bad thing. This is some next level tactics and fallacy to *dismiss everything that was said* . So if you wish to discuss then start by telling what do you disagree with what i said and then refute it. That is how it works. Or else, stop wasting my time.
The question on unyielding reliance on quranic text boils down to whether the authors of the Quran were 100% reliable in abridging unaltered sayings of the prophet Muhammad, and whether the prophet Muhammad's sayings were 100% unfallible, or whether he included personal opinion, and spoke 100% truth, independant of cultural affects, and whether we have a 100% accurate interpretation of his sayings. We cant know 100%; we must all find a personal balance based on our reasoning.
Hello from the future, yes I hope that soon we will have tolerant and friendly Muslims and all groups of people can live in peace some day. All of us have to put in work to take out all hate and bigotry out of our hearts
"-exactly the feeling you had when u read my reply, exactly the same feeling i got when i read your two ignorant comments." Fail strawman is fail. Provide the historical evidence proving that the Hadiths aren't forged or admit you have nothing. At the turn of Islam's second century, everyone, including the most staunch supporters of Tradition, knew that there were a staggering number of forged Hadiths. The People of Tradition claimed that the authentic Hadiths could be sorted from the fakes.
This person needs to understand that despite differences of opinions amongst the Muslims at large. Prophet Muhammad (saw) said to the nearest meaning that my ummah will never agree on something which is wrong ( ummah as in the majority of Muslims aka the mainstream ) . To give an example someone who comes up in 2017 and says homosexuality is permissible in Islam l, that is totally false , because all the school of thousands unanimously agree it is a major sin proven from the Quran n sunnah . So yeah , there is a wide spectrum amongst Muslims but there are red lines which all Muslims agree on . Also if your a Muslim remember Muslims means someone who submits to the will of god i.e. his laws and commandments . You can't be a Muslim and then make laws and rules according to your own whims desires and standards
lol the whole "ummah" isnt unified and isnt even respectable, in non black muslim communities 80% of black people feel unwelcomed the ummah is very unified against discrimation and racism against black people it seems
He chose 2,602 Hadiths because he could authentic that every narrator in the chain was: a) honest; b) had a good memory; c) was not a fabricator; and d) Was known to be strong in his Islamic faith. You have a "Progressive Islamic Movement" that is how old? And, you are trying to undo and throw away 1400 years of Islamic scholarship. May Allah guide you.
*lastly* Does this sound like something that the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) would've ever said? "Let me find no one of you reclining on his couch who, when confronted with an order of permission of prohibition from me, says: 'I do not know [whether this is obligatory or not]; we will follow only what we find in the Book of God.' " This was a Hadith as well. You're so routed in what you consider to be tradition that you can't see that you are blatantly contradicting the Qur'an and it's teachings.
This is exactly how the 73 sects of islam prophesised in the hadith comes Some relied on reason so much that they strayed from the straight path. Your supposed to have a balance of reason which integrates with the modern times while also relying and having respect on the texts including the Quran and Hadith. The problem with the progressive muslims is that the reason why they went to such an extent with these beliefs is due to pressure from the Western Society. But alas, i count them as one of the 73 sects of islam.
Have you ever studied the science of Hadith and Sanad? Do you know the requirements for a Hadith to be Sahih or even Hassan? There is not other aspect of any recorded history, of any time period, of any culture, that can stand the tests of the chain of narration, and the science behind it, that the Sahih ahadith carry with them. You need to start bringing some sources for your wild claims. This is ridiculous; you are twisting the Faith for your own desires.
One thing is verifying sources. I don't see anything controversial in this discussion, the only source mentioned is the Koran (btw. the speaker does not support progressive muslims, he is just open minded about them). The other - and more significant thing - is interpreting text according to the social context it was originally meant for. The dehistoricization of religious sources often underlies the views finding that Islam is incompatible with modern values.
@@maxmudxareed1345 why nobody would buy. You may not buy it but that does mean no one would buy. It seems you are opposite to them salafist. Look if you don't like it then don't buy it but never say it as useless. Progressive Muslim are more welcoming and more tolerant
I have attended a few progressive Muslim gatherings and feel they are a much needed source of support for "marginalized Muslims" like LGTB Muslims among others. Also as a convert to Islam, I also cannot find community in the standard masjid and feel these progressive groups much more welcoming and accepting.
Actually they are, and know what? They are better Muslims than you are lol. Have a nice day
Matt White Wolf
It is forbidden clearly.
Here:
And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?(80)Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."(81) Al-Araf 80-81
I understand you completely, but trust me they're are better Muslims out there. Progressive Muslims are mostly Hadith rejectors. Find a Muslim friend who is a student of knowledge. Then learn from them.
Why would Islam support LGBT when Islam strictly states homosexuality is forbidden? You can’t change the religion. Wrong is wrong. Right is right.
There's no such thing as progressive Muslim. That is to say you believe God created this magnificent world but he was unable to legislate for his creation. Audhubillah. Instead of water down your religion, start slowly and work your way up
The world would be a better place with more Muslims like you all. Thank you.
The world would be a much better place if people like you respected other religions and the holy Quran which clearly states that this is forbidden. Its impure. End of discussion
She says religious Muslim at 7'24, and she makes it seem like progressive minded Muslims aren't religious. I don't think that was her intent at all, but thats how it came across to me. I know some very liberal minded Muslims who are very religious, they just see Islam in a more liberal light than their conservative counterparts. I think both sides should show respect for one another,at the end of the day, they are all part of the Ummah.
I have a feeling that was on purpose though I hope it was not. It reflects a way of thinking, people unconsciously internalize concepts of what things are. There are Muslims for instance that assume Muslims who don't wear hijab are less religious than Muslims who do, even though it isn't a requirement outside of the mosque. Many Muslims are only Muslim nominally and only practice Islam on the outside while internally they are far from Allah the Most High and from the Prophet (upon him be peace). It's good though you give her the benefit of the doubt though, I'm sure she doesn't mean it in malice.
Cory Jamal Andriani-Williams It’s an obligation to wear the hijab outside and inside the mosquee . It’s a act of modesty for both men and women !
Isn't islam supposed to be conservative?
As long as they dont reject any verses or misinterpret them or even try and go against the Hadiths, they shall be rewarded
She probably meant religious as strict. Like very strict Islam
That beard is magnificent.
he looks like pakistani tarantino
I agree with progressive Muslims, Islam need to change with time,
In a healthy way
Same exactly
"it would be waste of energy and time to debate with you regarding hadith and that is based on your nickname!!"
There really is nothing to debate. The fact that the Hadiths were being forged for political agendas and was later being forged by the populace is historical fact. You're holding the Hadiths, a man-made text that isn't reliable to begin with to the same extent that you hold the Qur'an. You're clearly sinning. Oh, and my nickname doesn't reflect my religious beliefs. Sorry.
Huh?
Lol you claim to be a muslim and named yourself themaniacalsatanist.
May Allah protect us from the people of innovation.
*continued*
And they claimed the authority to make this evaluation. Beginning with Ahmad Hanbal himself, they compiled the supposedly authentic Hadiths. The most prominent of these scholars, al-Bukhari, is said to have chosen 2,602 Hadiths from a pool of more than 300,000. There was even a Hadith that said, "Eating flour cookies makes man stronger," and it is no accident that the man who put this forth, Muhammed b. Hajjaj Mahai was himself selling flour cookies.
Progressive Muslims do feel a connection to textual authority. They also read the text within its own context, for instance in the story Lot, and the argument they present, it is based on context that they don't read the story as a prohibition of homosexuality, at least not as we currently understand it. If we consider that this is the word of G-d, it stands to reason that G-d would have formally have forbidden homosexuality the way we find it explicit in Torah (the way G-d forbids things explicitly in the Qur'an). Ironically, even the Jews don't rely on the story of Lot for prohibition but on an explicit written law. Furthermore G-d did not destroy a city because people were homosexuals and the concept itself is incredibly toxic and dangerous for homosexual and non-homosexual believers. The idea itself is evil. There are obvious logical reasons why the "prohibition of homosexuality" isn't correct as well if we truly believe as Muslims that the Qur'an is the Word of the Most Merciful, Almighty, Lord of all creation but a reading of the Qur'an is plenty, and the internal ethos of the Book are clear. Progressive Muslims as any other Muslims, start with the text.
What on earth are you talking about? The Quran is literally (as it says in its verses) a guide to mankind. It says clearly what Allaah forbids and what He allows. A act of homosexuality which was so harshly spoken against by the Prophet Lut Alayhi salam as a sin which no one committed before them, this is a clear indication that this act is sinful then and its sinful now and specially when this sin was specifically mentioned and then their destruction was then mentioned in the verses that come after it. So in short, they denied God and they refused to stop the act of homosexuality and hence they were destroyed.
Furthermore, the Quran commands us to leave our desires and follow and submit to the Will of Allah, the Creator of everything. So the Most Merciful is telling us and giving us a example of people that did X and refused to stop the act X and they were destroyed. Anyone that comes and says otherwise is without any doubt a denier of the clear cut verses.
Also, the Quran tells us that it is Muhammad Sallallahu alayhi wasallam that explains the verses to us. the Quran says to follow the companions of the Prophet in faith and this leads to Eternal Paradise. How did they see these verses? Its clear, its not only forbidden, its a act of Zina which is a sin mentioned in the Quran that leads to hellfire.
So have your opinions, but this progressive Islam is far way from the Quran and the lack of Arabic is also something which clearly does not help.
FYI, its absolutely logical and rational to forbid homosexuality since its a preference that is not natural and it even is rejected in the majority of human history, may they be individuals that were exposed to religion or those who were not such as random pagans and so on so forth. So if it was something human saw natural, it would have not been issue to even those who were not influenced by Abrahamic religions.
@Hh Kk Why so silent? Do the facts hurt?
@@mohamudahmed6554 "Why so silent? Do the facts hurt?"
Do you want to have a constructive discussion or not? Your language is petty. Grow up.
@@paulthomas281 I had a very constructive discussion from my side by actually being objective and very academic.
After i bursted the bubble and refuted the fantasies, the individual i challenged that had so much to say was very silent after that. Thus i wrote my previous comment. This exposed the level of intellectual dishonesty this individual has.
As for your comment, it also shows intellectual dishonesty. You don't care about the facts or that i was being very factual and bringing scientific studies and academic references to support my claims. *All you did was take my last comment and acted as if i am being childish when in reality, i was spot on* .
So instead of responding to my entire discussion, you rather cherry pick and try to make me seem like the one doing the bad thing. This is some next level tactics and fallacy to *dismiss everything that was said* .
So if you wish to discuss then start by telling what do you disagree with what i said and then refute it. That is how it works.
Or else, stop wasting my time.
@@mohamudahmed6554
Homosexuality is natural, there are literally videos of 2 male animals mating
The question on unyielding reliance on quranic text boils down to whether the authors of the Quran were 100% reliable in abridging unaltered sayings of the prophet Muhammad, and whether the prophet Muhammad's sayings were 100% unfallible, or whether he included personal opinion, and spoke 100% truth, independant of cultural affects, and whether we have a 100% accurate interpretation of his sayings. We cant know 100%; we must all find a personal balance based on our reasoning.
Anyone here from the video which just got famous and is being memed?
Which one?
Wow, gay friendly Muslims? You don't often hear about this.
Hello from the future, yes I hope that soon we will have tolerant and friendly Muslims and all groups of people can live in peace some day. All of us have to put in work to take out all hate and bigotry out of our hearts
LGBT is not allowed in Islam.
They're not Muslims.
@Hh Kk Yes. Hell welcomes you.
@Hh Kk Excellent. May the devil admire you.
"-exactly the feeling you had when u read my reply, exactly the same feeling i got when i read your two ignorant comments."
Fail strawman is fail. Provide the historical evidence proving that the Hadiths aren't forged or admit you have nothing. At the turn of Islam's second century, everyone, including the most staunch supporters of Tradition, knew that there were a staggering number of forged Hadiths. The People of Tradition claimed that the authentic Hadiths could be sorted from the fakes.
This person needs to understand that despite differences of opinions amongst the Muslims at large. Prophet Muhammad (saw) said to the nearest meaning that my ummah will never agree on something which is wrong ( ummah as in the majority of Muslims aka the mainstream ) . To give an example someone who comes up in 2017 and says homosexuality is permissible in Islam l, that is totally false , because all the school of thousands unanimously agree it is a major sin proven from the Quran n sunnah . So yeah , there is a wide spectrum amongst Muslims but there are red lines which all Muslims agree on .
Also if your a Muslim remember Muslims means someone who submits to the will of god i.e. his laws and commandments . You can't be a Muslim and then make laws and rules according to your own whims desires and standards
lol the whole "ummah" isnt unified and isnt even respectable, in non black muslim communities 80% of black people feel unwelcomed the ummah is very unified against discrimation and racism against black people it seems
U can’t change Islam
U can’t change the Quran and the Sharia
U can’t change what the prophet told us to do
Islam is the last religion for a reason
@Hh Kk mans said yasir qadi 😂😂LMAO
Exactly why islam is false, at its true unchanging form, islam is pure evil, and that is what leads to Jesus the true god.
Human mind decides
Progressivism kills tradition.
That goes with any religious movement
He chose 2,602 Hadiths because he could authentic that every narrator in the chain was:
a) honest; b) had a good memory; c) was not a fabricator; and d) Was known to be strong in his Islamic faith.
You have a "Progressive Islamic Movement" that is how old? And, you are trying to undo and throw away 1400 years of Islamic scholarship. May Allah guide you.
But in one hadith Aishah (Ra) said that The companions of the prophet could never lie but there could be a misunderstanding in hearing
At least this guy is honest and acknowledges the existance of Progressive Muslims. Not that I agree though
PEACEFUL.
"I don't know that much about the movement but I read a book about it and here I am talking about it." MANSPLAINING ALERT!
so prophet muhammad is mansplaining? make it make sense
@@adamisntnice who mentioned the Prophet here? He would not have spoken on something he didn't fully understand
*lastly*
Does this sound like something that the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) would've ever said? "Let me find no one of you reclining on his couch who, when confronted with an order of permission of prohibition from me, says: 'I do not know [whether this is obligatory or not]; we will follow only what we find in the Book of God.' " This was a Hadith as well.
You're so routed in what you consider to be tradition that you can't see that you are blatantly contradicting the Qur'an and it's teachings.
This is exactly how the 73 sects of islam prophesised in the hadith comes
Some relied on reason so much that they strayed from the straight path. Your supposed to have a balance of reason which integrates with the modern times while also relying and having respect on the texts including the Quran and Hadith.
The problem with the progressive muslims is that the reason why they went to such an extent with these beliefs is due to pressure from the Western Society. But alas, i count them as one of the 73 sects of islam.
No sect will go into heaven because sects are forbidden
@@FuzzyFTW one sect will go to heaven as mentioned in the hadith. Those who follow the Qur'an and sunnah with the understanding of the salaf
@@FuzzyFTW sects and racism is forbidden in Islam. Those who believe in monotheism could go to heaven
Answer: they aren't Muslims
Fact: you don’t get to decide that
Another fact: takfiring is a major sin
Have you ever studied the science of Hadith and Sanad? Do you know the requirements for a Hadith to be Sahih or even Hassan? There is not other aspect of any recorded history, of any time period, of any culture, that can stand the tests of the chain of narration, and the science behind it, that the Sahih ahadith carry with them.
You need to start bringing some sources for your wild claims. This is ridiculous; you are twisting the Faith for your own desires.
One thing is verifying sources. I don't see anything controversial in this discussion, the only source mentioned is the Koran (btw. the speaker does not support progressive muslims, he is just open minded about them). The other - and more significant thing - is interpreting text according to the social context it was originally meant for. The dehistoricization of religious sources often underlies the views finding that Islam is incompatible with modern values.
What is this man's name?
niftyshockerino Shabir Ally.
ACADEMIC BOOK ON PROGRESSIVE ISLAM : www.academia.edu/24857798/The_Imperatives_of_progressive_Islam
nobody will buy such useless ideas
@@maxmudxareed1345 why nobody would buy. You may not buy it but that does mean no one would buy. It seems you are opposite to them salafist. Look if you don't like it then don't buy it but never say it as useless. Progressive Muslim are more welcoming and more tolerant
@@saniatamanna7763 There is just Islam .
ALL RELIGIOUS BOOKS AND TEACHINGS COMBINED TOGETHER, CANNOT HELP HUMANITY IN ANYWAY WHATSOEVER. LOOK AROUND YOU, -- YOU CAN SEE FOR YOURSELF.
Cherry picking, is allowed as long its favors your belief, Great
Cherry picking is inevitable.
Jesus Is Lord
No. He was the prophet of Allah.
You're saying a human is a God?
@@mihranplayz3430 he is fully man and fully god
@@Syd_aye7372 That doesn't make sense but you do you
@@mihranplayz3430 Sure, like Mohammed the lover of a nine year old (Aisha) made any sense to be glorified