Are Geo Charts Accurate? Introducing the GEOMETER - 4 Geometry Charts vs Reality (experiMENTAL)
Vložit
- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Can bike geometry charts be trusted? Today we measure the actual geometry of a few different bikes to find out. Do you rely on geometry charts to make your bike selection?
Do you need help choosing your next bike? Become a patron today for one-on-one bike consultation: patreon.com/hardtailparty.
Check out the hardtail I designed and pre-order yours today: binarybicycles.com/product/ma...
Gear I use and love:
20% off all Club Ride Apparel using this link: bit.ly/3kGjnx8
5% off 5DEV cranks - Use coupon code "hardtailparty" here: bit.ly/3c5Ha6b
Hardtail Party Shirts, hats, and SWAG - shop.spreadshirt.com/hardtailparty
Lab Austere hip pack: bit.ly/3p37K58 - code "Hardtail.Party" 25% off
Handup Gloves: bit.ly/3dhUe8z - use discount code "HARDTAILPARTY"
My shop tools: www.amazon.com/shop/hardtailp...
My glasses (use code "hardtail10"): bit.ly/3aXBeKp
My tire sealant: bit.ly/2ULJirZ
My favorite grips: bit.ly/3mYRL8Z
Hardtail Party collection by pedal industries - code "HARDTAILPARTY": bit.ly/3ilNdqH
What's in my water bottles (Tailwind): bit.ly/2Xbxy3q
My hooded sun shirt: bit.ly/38NdU1x
Milwaukee Inflator. I love this thing! amzn.to/38Vdqrj
Presta adapter: amzn.to/3cMADx1
5% off all RSD bikes using code "party" - bit.ly/3dj2nZP -
Ryan Leech Connection: $19 off - coupon code "hardtailparty" - bit.ly/2UwrmQq
amazon.com/shop/hardtailparty any time you shop on amazon using this link, it helps me.
Note: some of my links are affiliate links. That means I get a small commission on purchases made using these links. You don't pay anything extra, but it helps support the channel. If you've learned something from my videos, consider using the affiliate links above. - Sport
I dont know how many people tell you this but I appreciate your nerdiness with bikes. I love getting a deeper understanding of how thing operate and why they operate the way they do. Good stuff!
The inaccurate information is a general industry problem.
Nice to see that people question those things and expose things like that.👍🏼
Very confusing for beginners.
Love how you nerd out about numbers like I do! Your video on angled headsets changed the personality of a 2015 Santa Cruz 5010 and helped me get several more years outta that frame by adding 1.5 degrees! 68 to 66.5 HTA, Game changer! Always with the next level ideas! Thank you for all your hard work Steve!
This is going to be a great addition to the first looks!
Wow- this is top tier content. Yet another reason why HP is such an excellent channel.
Thank you Logan.
I've always wondered about this myself after riding several different bikes and thinking "wow, this does not feel slacker than the other bike, but the numbers are WAY different."
Very cool, another great effort. I feel like this and your crank length videos are a deeper level of analysis. Great work on the "geo meter" as well. I can't wait to see what other insights this leads to, keep it up.
This is some recalling informative information, and great learning device when choosing and what to look for in a bike!!! Such great variety on the channel Steve!!! Once again you raise the bar and keep us wanting more!! Great job 👍👍👍
I really appreciate when a bike manufacturer indicates wheel diameter, axle to crown, and static/sag on their geo charts. It helps a TON when trying to get an idea of how a bike will fit/ride.
Fantastic. We need more people doing this sort of analysis of bikes especially when it isn’t always possible to try a bike out. It also allows us to see why certain numbers make a bike ride the way it does. Thanks Steve!
Wow! Your insights are next level. I really appreciate your attention to detail. Keep up the good work 👏🏻
Thank you very much for taking such an effort to inform and educate us on that important matter. I really appreciate it!!!
I love all the detail and info that you put in your videos. I just got myself a 2021 Salsa Timberjack and I'm curious to know how the geo turns up with your measurements. Great content as always!!🤙
This is phenomenal! I've got a Sherpa frame coming so I'm so happy you measured that one.
Great stuff, Steve! It'd be super interesting to compare geo of a bike before/after "mulleting" it, too. I'm sure you've considered this, but what is it worthwhile to measure tire diameter? I suspect the height fluctuations due to tire pressure, rim width, different manufacturers, etc. is fairly minimal, but thought I'd mention it. Keep up the experimentaling!
Thank you for this Steve. Very interesting stuff. I recently purchased a Santa Cruz FS bike and ordered the size based off of geo numbers only because I couldn't try one locally. Fortunately, it was a perfect fit for my liking. Actually fit better than I thought based on the numbers.
Great video. Really put the geometry into an understandable format. Thanks. Really appreciate your content a lot.
LOVE this content, Steve! Fellow geo nerd. This content is so rare on CZcams. Great work and ingenuity.
Most geo chart doesn't include fork length, and there's not really a standard for fork length and travel. So it makes me wonder how they get those numbers right.
Some include axle to crown measurements (fork length), but many do not. It would sure be nice if we had a standard for this.
Awesome video Steve! Great info and insight
I think Trek having a really accurate geo chart is definitely an asset - it would be a nice accessible baseline. Can't wait to see more of these. Perhaps you might figure out what the secret sauce is for you?
This has been my favorite video by far from you, amazingly good content! My inner nerd is so happy!
This is so cool! You’re creating a consistent comparison system for hardtails. I’d easily pay for access to all your charts, so I could compare bikes I’m considering. Looking forward to HP geo in your first look videos.
I'm trying to find the best way to do that. It's so easy for someone to copy my work and post it online for others to enjoy without having to pay.
I use these charts (and others) when consulting with my patrons, but i don't post them anywhere.
I knew it! Very informative and explains why bikes with similar geometries can fit so differently. I’ve been to demos ready to ride a certain size to find many didn’t fit like the geo charts. Keep up the great content HP!
I’m glad you’re doing this. I like a high stack and I think some companies measure to the top of the frame, and some measure to the center of the stem. It’s often not clear if manufacture’s are using Frame Stack or the other stack measurement.
Standover is another measurement that some companies really fudge.
very interesting, thank you very much! you are one of the best and most informative YT bike channels.
When I did a frame building course it really opened my eyes to how hard it is to get things exact when your joining bits of metal together!
One of your most informative videos that you have made and probably why you get such a different ride from similar geo bikes . It shows also when buying a bike you may need more specific geo numbers and what is actually being measured . Contacting a manufacturer to get specifics maybe helpful . We take things for granted when we purchase most things as we believe they are what is stated but many aren't . As a consumer you must do your research if you are going to get what you want . Tire width can have a similar problem as we know . You knocked it out of the park Steve
Thanks Steven, this one was a ton of work but I'm proud of the result. It really surprised me.
Great video. I love that you're such a bike nerd. I swear that's a huge reason why I love your vids.
nerds unite!
I love a good geometry dive. My current projects numbers match your paradox almost exactly, but with a 140mm fork. Thanks for this!
Hey Steve great video!!! Super interesting, did you check the numbers on your Spot Rocker? Thanks for the all the content over the past few years!
It does make sense though. Coming from the industrial design world, I always designed to certain numbers, but when you move from CAD to manufacturing you always have a “tolerance stack-up”. You could end up with a product sometimes that was technically “in spec” but way off from the original design. Getting consistent measurements on your geometer is a great idea.
100% agree. So many people think that since CAD is perfect, the final product should match it to the millimeter.
Enjoyed this vid! This was something a little different. Good stuff
Great video! There is a 4-5 mm difference in axle-to-crown measurement between a 130mm Fox34 vs a 130mm Revelation/pike. The same bike will have slighly different angles if a cheaper model has fox vs more expensive using rockshox. Also, the 51mm vs 44mm fork offset will also introduce a small diffence to head angle, reach etc on hardtails.
Yeah, I've noticed this discrepancy myself with my two bikes, both full suspension, aluminum frames. My Kona Hei Hei measures a 67° head angle and is supposed to have a 67.5°. While my Devinci Marshall has a 65° head angle and it's supposed to be 66.5°. I've heard that aluminum frames will have less accurate dimensions than Carbon ones. I feel the Devinci being so much slacker that spec makes it ride better, so I don't mind. I did switch the fork from a 140mm RockShox 35 to a 150mm RockShox Revelation. The axle the crown distance is only 4 mm more on the longer fork so that doesn't account for the huge discrepancy in angles.
Probably one of you're best vids to date!
Very informative, thanks for the great video!
Hey man I wanted to tell you I appreciate your reviews. I just got a chameleon after getting stoked on the new slack hardtails, in large part to all the info you provide. It's my first bike since I sold my downhill bike several years ago. Thanks for being articulate and not using profanity. It's uncommon and professional.
Thanks so much. I commit to never using profanity. Sad that it's so rare. Thank you for mentioning it. Enjoy your chameleon!
Thanks for this mate, can't wait to pick up my Roscoe 9 next month :)
I think this is a *massive* topic and this video was really great at explaining / demonstrating some of the issues!
I can't believe the Stanton is SO SHORT! And the BB is SO HIGH!
Same goes for the Sour - I always wondered why they would quote a Medium as apparently so long. Turns out, it's NOT!
This takes us one step closer to understanding why bikes ride different and how geometry matters.
Awesome, Steve. I recently got myself an Octane One Sour frame. It was really cheap at CRC and the geometry was great for such a cheap bike. Slack, short seat tube, 420 chainstays... Even it has external cable routing and I can fit a 170mm droper all the way in in the M size. I expected a playfull 27,5+ bike. When I got it, measured chainstays several times and got aroud 435 chainstays. Did more measurements but with very inacurate methods but, in my opinion, just those 15mm of difference in the rear made a totally different bike. I can fit 29x2.6 in that frame! The bike is very cool for the price, but it's just not the bike I decided to buy
Great video!
The inaccuracy of some geos would explain why I just didn't click with some bike, although the geo looked right in paper, while I felt super at home on a bike with a claimed geometry that looked like it wouldn't suit me at all.
Gotta build a rig like that myself, so I can measure my, for me, perfect capra, my dads Giant Trance e and my girlfriends ghost nirvana with a 140mm fox 34.
Glad you made this video. I'm going to check my Ragley, will post results. Thanks HTP!
Very fascinating and impressive. Thanks for calling this out.
Wow, this is going to be next level for bike reviews. I'd love to know if your Spot Rocker is a little slacker than it claims. I believe you said it felt that way when you first reviewed it. My new Rocker should be arriving in 2 days🤞. I'd also be interested to see Dusty Betty's Ripmo AF on the rack. My full suspension bike is an AF.
Your content is on another level .
You are taking hardtail reviews to a completely new level. Almost every other review is just discussion component spec, or by guys who prefer full suspensions and don't know what to look for in a hardtail.
My wife and I both have the same bike in different sizes. Hers is a small mine is an XL. The geometry numbers are not the same between the two bikes. I thought that was very interesting and wondered how many other bikes are the same. Thanks for the video!!
Hopefully the geometer numbers will be part of the first look vids going forward. When you used the phone for the head angle I thought oh no but you saved it with the Mitutoyo. Should be interesting.
Nice jig you have built for holding the bikes. Nice video
once again, this is a game changer. thanks steve!
great video! This is why I always laugh when people geek out to such precise Geo measurements. Unless they measure, most people have no idea what their actual Geo is or how they would ride bikes with different Geo. This is also exactly why the best advice on fit is for people to ride the bikes they’re considering and see how they feel.
This is my favorite video you’ve done, though I want to see more on your new custom bike!
Love how you mix science and art to explain geo. One thing I would love to see is an Excell spreadsheet of all the bikes you have tested and their geo, either actual or listed or both. I would pay for a that even if it was just listed geo. It would save alot of people alot of time when comparing geo.
Check out geometrygeeks.com. There are a few other sites out there too. Granted, they all assume geo charts are accurate, which they clearly aren't, but it's a starting point.
Love this👌
I guess the differences you noted on the Chameleon might come down to differences within frame tolerances, or small changes in how a different rim may create different profile/height for the tires on the bike 🤔
I'm betting it was either the ATC, or that SC uses a larger rear tire than I did when measuring.
My 2019 Giant Trance was about 1° slacker than advertised. I measured after reading forum posts stating the advertised value was conservative
Thanks for a great video! Bike industry should get this right, otherwise the geo charts are quite useless.
However, I think the Sour Crumble geo chart in the video is for ’22 model, which has 5mm longer reach than the ’21 model (which I asumme the frame is, since there are no bottle cage bosses under the downtube). Might have to measure my forthcoming Sour Pasta Party to see how off the charts are compared to real numbers 🤔
I also wonder if sour measures geo sagged, but doesn't state it. That would account for a lot.
This is a exactly what I would do with many bikes lying around. Great video.
I have been tempted to stole a geo chart or two to make a bike of my own but only for those bikes that would never reach my country.
This is a great idea! Love those monster calipers!
that was a great video, eye opener for sure.
Thanks for checking these measurements!! Gotta keep manufacturers honest!!
Loved this video. I'm thinking of the Niner SIR9 from a year or so ago that you said rode so much differently/better than it's geo chart. Would love to see a database or record of your measurements for reference. Thanks!
Great point about sagged vs static measurements. My Pipedream Sirius S5 geo chart says 65* head angle. Underneath the chart it says in the small print ‘sagged with 100mm fork’. It sits at 62.5* with a 120mm fork static. Always check your geo chart with the manufacturer.
Exactly. I've been wanting to measure one of those.
Wow, I'm really surprised about your findings! I just got myself a Paradox in L. I still have to build it up. But would I have seen this video, I might have chosen the M frame - since I like playful shorter reach bikes at around 460 (I'm 6'1 with a short torso).
Btw. you are doing a great job for the hardtail community!
At 6'1", the L was the right choice for a modern hardtial
Ha..you have "the knack". I love it! This is awesome.
Love this idea, thank you!
Great video and instruction Steve! I am always learning from you. Did you throw the Rocker on your rig?
Not yet. I need to do that.
This reminds me of old school Yeti bikes with their slacker HA feel vs what’s on the geo chart. This is awesome! Thanks Steve!
my sb165 HA measures less than the geo chart. yeti says it's 63.5 degrees, the last time i actually measured i think it was 63, or high 62.8-9
Keyword "old school Yeti".
@@tjay_mac yeah i got that. just stating even the newer ones feel the same way that you mentioned
That monster digital caliber must be very expensive! Impressive setup!
Homemade tools is good stuff. I enjoy mine for work. Good job Steve.
I’ve read that geometry will change upon welding, probably due to temp, humidity etc. would be interesting to measure a carbon frame to see if there is more consistent in the measurements. Great video btw! 👍
Interesting. As a hobbyist welding, I'm not sure I buy that, but heat from welding can definitely warp a frame. All good framebuilders should control for this and ensure they have a straight frame afterwards.
@@hardtailparty I agree 100 percent, specially when we are paying top dollar for this bikes.
Thats a very interesting result with the banshee. You have the actual being 460, that is what Yeti claims my Yeti SB130 is...I can tell you that the reach on my Medium paradox V3 (with a 140mm fork) feels (from a peddling position) much shorter than my yeti. ....BUT I have never actually measured to exact reach on either bike, very intriguing
Keep in mind that reach isn't measured in pedalling position. You're thinking of ett. Maybe the ett is the same between the two, due to the steep sta of the paradox
Now that you mentioned the Pipedream Sirius, would love to see your actual charts for that frame/bike
Same. I have a feeling it's WAY slacker than we think
Wow, that is the next level! Not only how each frame feels, but also what its geometry is like in real life!
If you could know a bit more about frame welding quality and tell us how good or bad each frame is welded, your channel would be "level=god"!
The only way to do that would be to destroy the frames I get and cut them apart. Frames so rarely break at the welds these days that I don't know if it'd be worth it. I assume 99% of the bikes I get would have extremely strong welds and it wouldn't be an issue. I haven't come across any bad welds yet, just more aesthetic welds.
@@hardtailparty I didn't make myself clear - I didn't mean the strength aspects (I don't believe it is possible to check at all), but rather precision, welding accuracy and the whole frame alignment.
It can somewhat predict the likelihood of getting a flawed frame. Among a dozen of hardtails i've owned, I had several flawed (to a different degree) frames, all made in Taiwan. If you order a frame from abroad, the warranty replacement is sometimes very expensive for the owner: you pay for warranty shipping and customs won't refund your fees/duties and in case you get a replacement frame you will most likely pay customs duties once again. So instead of 600$ for a frame, it can turn out to be ~1000$ for a frame just because of low production quality...
Misaligned brake mounts, overheated metal in welding areas (tube deformation or metal protrusions -> seatpost, BB or even headset fitting problems as a result), slightly angled or shifted sideways rear wheel... Affected frames: Ragley BigWig & Mmmbop, NsBikes Eccentric CrMo & Surge, Transition Trans Am, Surly Karate Monkey.
The welding quality is very difficult to estimate, but when you show any frame to a man who welds pipes professionally, you can hear amazing things about how it has been welded!
OK, I understand I expect too much from you)))
5mm reach increase per 10mm
3mm ish wheelbase change per 10mm
51mm vs 44mm fork offset changes wheelbase and bb heigh.
Been trying these numbers. There are a few bikes that list numbers with different forks... Salsa for example.
Great to see this. Was looking at a frame and Geo looked ok but stack looked wrong. Realised geo was done with their ridged fork and not 120mm fork recommended for the bike. Axel to crown 50mm difference.
That's a huge difference. I know some companies do that to make it harder to cline their geo exactly.
Very interesting stuff!
Love this discussion, love measuring things on the bikes I own. Big question for you: Is it likely that many bike frames are manufactured with variability among the hundreds or thousands that make it to retail floor/ to the customer?
Meaning does the geo vary between the thousands of bikes? I would assume not, but I'd need more insider info.
@@hardtailparty I mean maybe the insider info doesn't even exist, right. Like I can't imagine every single frame in production at a big company gets super fine tooth geo assessment... But at the same time, maybe it's super consistent, I wouldn't know. I will say, I've ridden bikes for about 15 years and time and again the rule of thumb is, small increments of adjustment, make a big difference
Hi Steve, I was surprised with the BB drop measurements. For instance, on the Paradox, there was the same drop of 60 either for 150 or 130 forks. Shouldn’t be different, or the different travel just affects the BB height, not the drop?
It’s funny because on your first reviews, when you started to underfork the middlechild, paradox, you were pointing out the lower BB that might bother some people, but it seems now that the last bikes you’re reviewing like sirius, maniak…, have that similar BB height.
Thanks a lot for your educational videos that help us understand and love even more the bikes!
Fork length affects most geo numbers, including bb drop
Great video, Steve, very enlightening! How much do you think manufacturering tolerances play a role in a frame maybe not adhering to its geo chart?
Very little
Riding a 25-pound 2020 Stumpjumper EVO S2 Carbon 27.5 setup as a 29er.
Slack HTA. Rides great with a 51mm offset. Rides a bit sluggish with 44mm or 42mm offset.
Anyway incredible for tech riding!
Bring this up as a regular 140mm 2020 Stumpjumper 25-pound carbon bike almost seemed to try and kill me. Just knew the geometry was off, specifically the headtube angle.
Riders like to hate on TREK for being massive in racing and or too popular on the trails. That said, I’m not shocked they were spot on geo wise. Great content here.
Awesome! This is a cool experiment to try. You going to put the Honzo ESD on the rig? Curious how that fairs compared to what's published.
I'd love to, but I sent that bike back to kona a long time ago.
@@hardtailparty If I was closer to AZ, I'd lend you mine!
Great video, love your content. Can you please explain the difference between chainstay length and rear center?
Rear center measures shorter because it eliminates bb drop putting both axles and bb in a straight line.
I think.
@@drujenssen5444 I agree
Thank you for this video. I would assume one should size what stem length & bar they should get based on the sagged geo.
Super interesting! My new Honzo ST feels shorter and twitchier than my old Fuse even though the Fuse was supposed to be a shorter bike.
I felt twitchy on the Honzo st too
I wonder if the smaller than stock rear tire on the Chameleon could also help explain the slacker HA and shorter reach? I think you're right about fork AC being the bulk of the difference, but I know those Specialized 2.3's are pretty low profile compared to a 2.5 Maxxis. I don't doubt geo can vary from what is listed but I've noticed subtle geo changes between size/make/model tire.
I'll bet a 2.5 29er would get me closer numbers to SC. I felt like their numbers were close enough that I can trust their geo chart. I also loved it with the specialized 2.3s, and I was curious what the geo turned out to be.
With regards to the Banshee, the fact that the angles are the same with the shorter fork maybe the geometry measurements were taken sagged?
It would be interesting to measure two or three of the exact same frame to see if there are manufacturing differences. I would expect a carbon frame to be consistent as they generally use moulds but welded frames could be vary more.
That would be interesting. My theory is that metal frames would be more consistent than you think. It'd be interesting to see if wear/tear on the carbon molds leads to different geo at all over time.
Some manufacturers measure the reach of a hardtail at 30% sag because of how much it steepens as the fork goes though it travel, your never riding around with the fork at full hight. A full sus change very little as it sags approximately the same front and rear, this could explain the reach difference.
Thanx a lot 4 your work!! What is the most playful and bmx-like hardtail bike you’ve ever ridden?
I save those discussions for my bike consult patrons. I'd be happy to help you over there.
This is about as bike nerd as it get's and I'm here for it.
Yes! I wanted to measure to check my bike to see if it was accurate... Before watching I'm gonna say they are pretty much bang on.... @sour crumble... That's crazy....
There should be an industry standard for geo charts. Some companies like salsa do measurements with sag. That really makes things hard to compare.
I've been down this rabbit hole looking at numbers for a new bike and comparing them with my current bike and found that tire model, size, and pressure will also effect the geo
As long as it's the same tire front and rear, tire pressure or size shouldn't change the geo, other than bb height.
Geometry is so complicated, especially with companies stating their measurements that are most likely measured differently. Throw in differences of riders setting their sag at 25% or another at 30%, anything in between. Tires sizes vary brand to brand or even setting your tire pressures differently....I know that's nit picking, but every little thing will affect Geometry if you really get into to it that deep. Just from my little bit of experience from test riding different bikes and looking at Geometry charts, what you're saying holds true. Companies' measurements stated may not be accurate and even though two companies may have bikes with the "same" geo listed, they'll ride differently. It's like in the early days of mtn biking we went by standover and seat tube measurement (which was the measurement used to list the size). Some went to the center of the top tube or the top edge and even the actual top of the seat tube itself. Confusing.....
Those of us who've ridden a lot of bikes, especially a lot of types of bikes that were similar on paper and all rode differently this makes sense for better or worse.
Doesn’t the banshee have modular dropouts? Maybe that’s what’s off?
I use a geo calculator for calculating mixed wheels, travel adjust, or sagged/unsagged geo.
No modular sropouts on the banshee
Was the Banshee measured at sag on the 150mm fork as that would take it closer to the 130 unsagged.
Really fan of your videos as i'm a hartail convinced from ages !
Would you mind measuring the Orbea Lauffey (if you still have it...) as i'm really interested in that bike... (The H10 in XL as i'm 1m84 though ;p)
I don't have the lauffey anymore, sorry.
@@hardtailparty Arggg ;p Thx for the answer and Thx for your vids !
Amazing. I was not aware of sagged measurement. The effective frame length should be measured from center of the head tube by horizontal line till it meets the saddle tube. So it doesn't matter how high your saddle actually is, right?
You are correct. Effective top tube measurements should always be done at the level horizontal. I meant to say that if your saddle is taller than mine, your distance to the bars will be different from me (despite the same ETT). So effective top tube is helpful, but some people put too much stock in it, not factoring into account seat height.
@@hardtailparty Ok. I get it. Thanks Steve. I'm currently waiting for my new handle bars with 25mm rise, swapping them over the narrow ones with no rise. Maybe that could be another experimental topic simillar to the cranks lenght you've done.