🧙 The Lemon Tree and the Red Door: The Truth of Daenery's Home
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- čas přidán 24. 05. 2018
- Spoilers for Winds of Winter!
What's going with that suspicious lemon tree and house with the red door in Braavos? Is it a sign that Dany isn't who she thinks? That her whole life is a lie? Or is it a first clue in a long chain of events that ties the Targaryens and the Martells in marriage. It's the latter. Join PoorQuentyn and myself as we delve deep into why there is a lemon tree in Braavos.
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You still have to cover the trees in the cold weather or the next day pick up All the rotten citrus off the ground to throw away.... Florida girl grew up around plants and nursery in fact. My kids are pick up for allowance. Best break down I have seen! 💜💜💜🔥
Luckily, Dany doesn't mention her tree ever producing fruit. No problem there :) Glad you enjoyed the video!
Rhee Venjenz Hey Rhee! Glad to see you on the forums, I hope you and yours are doing well, Love QOT.🌹 😊
@@JoeMagician I enjoy so much I rewatch your videos 😄 I had to check to see if I already commented.🔥♥️ I Love your videos.. I still think Theon is one of the bastards too though 😉
@@Jockeylotforfun thanks I'm getting by. I been streaming even. Finally. Hope you are doing wonderful my Lady♥️🌹
@Blake Hunt "What kind of tree is that in the courtyard?"
"A lemon tree"
"Venice mixed with Seattle" 😂😂😂
Its true lol
Yep, still funny 😅
Row boats and riots ?
No please do no mix that degenerate yankee city with a city with actual culture
Braavos was akin to Oslo, Norway rather than Venice
As I understand it, Norwegians aren’t known for growing lemons in abundance.
In Westeros, Myr, Tyros, and Dorne were known for lemon orchards.
Furthermore, Arya commented that the smell of salt and brine were overpowering in Braavos even in the sealords palace.
The spoiler chapters from winds of winter reveal Martin was trying to clear this issue up.
Alas, most seem to have made up their minds on this issue.
Hopefully this controversy will be resolved when Martin releases the long awaited next book in the song of ice and fire
EVERYTHING we hear about Bravos tells us it is a foggy and cold place. Having grown up on the western coast of Oregon, I can tell you that even in the summer...fog, rain and cloudy days can still be the norm. Yes I know people who had citrus trees, usually in planters kept close to their homes and they grew to be 3-4 ft tall. We have NO POV that gives us any other description of Bravos. So I have to say that while you make a good case, I still can’t believe that is where they were. Isn’t it just as likely that they were in one of the other free cities. Illyrio seems to be the mastermind of the operation to keep them alive. He is the one that links all the other players together. Perhaps they lived in a mance owned by the Sealord of Bravos in another city. That could be why Danny remembers his name. But when they are put out of the house, it is the servants that steal their money. Not the Sealord. If it were his primary home, doesn’t it stand to reason that he would prevent that from happening. Those servants didn’t fear being caught.
We have no pov that tells us what the lemon tree looked like :) Dany neglects to say how big it was, if it grew fruit, etc. And as you point out, even in a foggy rainy climate people in your area growing up pulled it off. Also keep in mind that this was years straight of nothing but summer. It's all one long growing season.
Joe Magician, I tend to think it did bear fruit. Without that distinguishing feature it would look like any other tree to a child.
Unless someone told her what it was.
@@JoeMagician, and how would they know, unless it had borne fruit or someone had told THEM? I'm on your side. Work with me bruh. 😁
Joe Magician The “someone” you are talking of is Viserys, right?
While almost every single condition could be met by placing her at Sealord's Palace, there are 2 main ones that bother me.
First, the climate; not the fact that a lemon tree can be raised, but the fact that she doesn't remember a foggy, freezing weather. I don't think a long summer can singlehanddedly account for her multiple memories of a warm and comfortable Braavos, where a child would run around barefoot. I assume Braavosi weather is similar to that of, say Netherlands, and having spent some time there I can safely say that summers are ridden with sudden rain and cold weather. (I would have also expected a mention of the smell of the sea that would most certainly be present in Braavos, and one of the things we remember the best from distant childhood memories is often the sense of smell, but that's beside the point as it can simply be explained by "GRRM didn't want to write it that way")
Second, the servants and Ser Willem Darry; I find it difficult to believe that the Sealord would be so neglectful of his guests of honor, especially considering how much of a political impact they could have in both Westeros and in the Free Cities AND the Iron Bank in the future. We know that many of the Free Cities were interested in an invasion against Westeros in the past, what better opportunity for such a plan to come into place again than the complete political upheaval in Westeros caused by Robert's Rebellion? Even if Braavos were not interested in such a plot, they would be holding massive leverage over the other Free Cities by housing the heirs to the previous kingdom, perfect puppets to be supported and crowned in such an invasion. There is also the fact that the costs of Robert's Rebellion, an incredibly destructive war, is almost guaranteed to drive the Iron Throne or at the minimum a lot of lords from Westeros into borrowing from the Iron Bank, which is another political force in Braavos. Considering how much intertwined Braavosi politics are with Westerosi, I would expect the Sealord to ensure the safety and the health of Ser Willem Darry (who by my understanding died slowly due to absolute lack of medical care), and would certainly not let "servants steal what little money was left", and kick Dany and Viserys out. Two mouths to feed cost nothing to a Sealord compared to the political potential they have.
I too find all the babyswap tinfoil theories a bit too reaching, but in this case I would agree with most of the comments here, it seems more likely that Dany simply misremembers where she was or mixing up multiple memories she has from being very young. I am curious as to where the Dornish plot will lead to though, if it turns out to be the case that Doran was nothing more than too cautious to act or incompetent, I'll be severely disappointed.
In any case, this is still a great analysis, especially due to you tying things up with older versions of the story by GRRM, I'll most certainly be checking out your other videos.
Yes that's my problem with this too... why would the Sealord allow his servants to steal from literal children just bc a protector died, then kick those children out to the curb for no reason.
Also, why would the Sealord be willing to take in Targaryens, blood of old Valyria, considering the history between Valyria and Braavos and why Braavos was founded in the first place.
The servants running away is what basically bothers me with any theory. The base assumption is a change in Sealord, but how would that be tied to the death of Sir Willem Darry? I doubt the Sealord would deal as closely with the children as Darry is portrayed to.
I also don't buy any theories that rely on a fake Willem Darry. Ned and the White Bull basically confirm his whereabouts up to Dragonstone, where Viserys is as well, and where else would he be after that? Certainly not with (F)Aegon, maybe at the wall, together with Mance Dayn and Oswell Giantsbane? Gared Darry? Willem Rattleshirt?
Köşedeki
same, it just does not work out. If the tree had been in a glass garden, it would not have been right outside of her window. If it had been a great deal to make sure ist does not freeze to death, she would remember that. Even if she just remembers the best of days, she would remember the smell of the sea and wind.
No matter how sunny, those winds are always a bit sharp and therefor notable and bravos is not usualy sunny, so even if the temperature problem gets solved, the part about keeping lemon trees he read mentioned how if not in optimal temperature, the trees can grow given they get enough sun . . . which they would not . . .
And the whole sealord thing
To be fair I took it as a mixture of places and things she liked representing the peaceful quiet life she could never have, but I like this better
Best explanation of the lemon tree I have seen. Tying it in with the marriage pact, Dorne, the Sealord and Oberon’s agitation for Visarys is brilliant. Your video left me with some questions. I always found it strange that they lost everything when Darry died. Surely they had a sponsor, why not continue to protect them? After Jon Arryn’s visit to Sunspear maybe things got to hot for the Sealord? Maybe there was a new Sealord? Maybe Derry was killed by a Faceless Man? Why weren’t they killed? What happened to them? Who watched out for them? Visarys doesn’t Strike me as capable of taking care of himself and his younger sister on the streets of Bravos or any of the Free Cities. That is what I like about GRRM. You think you have something figured out and it just raises more questions.
Really interested to find out more (if we get any more explanation) about how the dornish went from the Targaryen’s most hated enemies into their strongest supporters
Marriage pacts and your family on the iron throne is a big motivator
Great video. And interestingly, whilst “no one speaks of Oberyn’s attempt to raise Dorne for Viserys. No one talks of Doran’s secret pact either.
See, imo, Prince Quentyn took the secret marriage pact to Daenerys as a message, A message that Daenerys should have received loud and clear.
Doran’s secret marriage pact named Viserys and Arianne, the heir to the iron throne and a Princess of Dorne.
Effectively making Doran father to the queen of Westoros,
Yet, bizarrely Doran could have cemented his grasp on the iron throne by arranging a similar marriage pact for Viserys’s heir to the iron throne, young Daenerys and young Quentyn at the very same time.
why try to make the match now?
When Daenerys’ name was omitted from the secret marriage pact, way back then?
It seems strange for Prince Doran to miss a golden opportunity to arrange secret pacts for both his children to eventually wed “King” Viserys and Daenerys, who was his heir to the iron throne, Daenerys
See, imo, Doran send Daenerys the secret marriage pact as a message, simply to let her know that he knows that Daenerys was not present/ did not exist when the secret marriage pact was drafted?
So, Who is she really?
Daenerys would not have been Viserys’ heir after the marriage with Arianne unless she was like barren or something. Daenerys serves a better purpose by marrying into another great lord such as the Tyrells instead of double marriage between Targaryan and Martell.
That is the thing though, if Viserys died in an accident or died without issue, Danaerys would be queen. It's a worthwhile thing to keep in mind because that's exactly what happened. Viserys got himself killed like an idiot and Dany become the prime claimant.
The greenhouse of winterfell only works due to it being built and heated by a geothermal spring, we got no evidance that Bravos has something like that.
another option is traping sunheat, but Bravos is not temperate and sunny, it is cold and foggy, so that would not work all to well either.
The part you read about growing lemons mentioned that colder weather is not as problematic, as long as you get enough sun light still, which you would not if it was rainy and or foggy most days.
even if a glasgarden did work, the tree would not be standing right outside of her window and with all mamory messing of childhood counted in, forgetting that there was a greeenhouse and planting the tree insead in a sunny open feld breaks my suspension of disbelive.
Every memory she has speaks of heat, sun, she seams to be outside and nowhere ever get rain, fog, the smell of sea or cold mentioned . . . it just does not work.
Also, if she was living with the sealord, how does the thing with her getting thrown out after the sevents stole the little she and her brother had fit in? If she was his guest that seams extreamly weird.
This is a comforting background tune - pulls me into the narration.. this is BAD ASSERY!!
Thank you for this. No lemons in Braavos 😁💜🔥🍋🍋 I can go for a greenhouse maybe but not even mentioned and not outside her window. Not tyrosh either no blue hair either mentioned. This is one of my triggers. You did great on it!🤗🍋
Yeah if there'd been a greenhouse like at winterfell martin would have mentioned it.
Sometimes when watching these videos, I wonder if Lyanna didn’t have twins. A girl who was very Targaryan looking, and a boy that was all Stark. If Dany actually grew up in Dorne there would be opportunity for a baby swap at some point. If Dany were in danger that might help explain why towards the end Ned felt he had somehow broken his promise to Lyanna.
it would actually makes sense. also, that's why Ned was reluctant about Robert killing Dany, not because she was only a child, but because he was her uncle. Dany and Jon being twins also leaves more room to the ice and fire theory. Jon is ice and Dany is fire, but they can also be both of them
@@Nihilanth sadly it’s been confirmed there was an 8-9 months age gap between Jon and Dany
My theory is Jon is the oldest and Danny and Val are the twins. R+L were missing for around two years by some estimates. A lot of time passed between the tourney at summerhall and Ned finding Lyanna. Maybe R+L had Aemon(Jon) then decided to try again, which goes along with the "there must be another" scene that Danny sees in the house of undying.
Excellent content! Thank you, looking forward to discovering more!
She might of been in another free city and got it confused, her being a young girl.
dude, might have, not might of. "Might've" sounds like "might of" but is actually a contraction for "might have." Sorry to be a dick (I know it), but I'm just trying to help people going forward.
I also learned something here. Thank you.
Love the vids, mate, and i get your arguments of the lemon tree, however, why would the servants steal and run if they are employed by the Sealord? Where would they go? How its writen in the books is that Danny's group ran out of money, and that's what sparked the servants to leave. How would this be possible if they are servents allocated to Danny's group by the Sealord? Did they just leave the Sealord's service? No, not in a feudal system. Additionally, rolling hills, many large stone houses? Where would these exist in the Sealord's palace? Big like anyways, mate 👌
I like how you've tied in the Sea Lord's home with the Dornish master plan. :) I'd definitely heard the theory that the only likely place that Dany's house with the red door and lemon tree could only be at the Sea Lord's palatial home, but not one that so neatly ties in Dorne as well.
Most reasonable explanation out there: Dany mixed up the cities (if I'm not wrong, she speaks Valyrian with a thick Tyroshi accent, so yeah, maybe she just messes the cities as an hint to the original novella), as we do know that Viserys and her had to move plenty of times in a short time span.
And yeah, she was like five or six, she was a big girl, she should remember yada, yada, yada, but I moved when I was around the same age and while I still perfectly remember the places, I don't really remember names or exact locations... Sometimes I just see a house or a certain landmark and I'm like "Oh, I remember this from that time", but I don't really remember where things were/happened.
Children really start grasping those things when they are around her age at the time, but it takes a while to master city names, streets, etc... AND this was actually an highly traumatic moment, as her only father figure had passed and she was on the move with her brother to prevent a possible deadly situation.
Stress and memory don't work well together, it's even possible that the lemon tree wasn't there at all or that the house with the red door was somewhere else and Dany made up those details to fill some gaps.
I do believe that this is an important memory and bears some meaning (as the kiss from Sansa's memories) BUT I don't really buy the whole conspiracies, especially the ones about her lineage.
There might have been a babies' swap? Yes, it might have and Viserys was so young and traumatised that he could have truly believe that Dany was his sister (and not his cousin, niece or whatever), but considering how unhinged he became later on, if there was a bigger conspiracy playing, he would have probably screwed everything up by spilling the beans with Dany while drunk.
May Dany have grown up in Dorne at some point? It's a possibility, but if that happened, it's also possible that she was younger than six years old when she had to run away, as she doesn't seem to remember how she ended up in Essos after the death of her adoptive father (travel by ship is something a child usually remembers).
Since that house was the only house they ever had and she is an highly traumatized child, she may misremember the whole thing, as it's very common with children that experienced severe life adverse events.
Is the weather issue just related to the arrival of winter? Maybe, but if Braavos is so North, I imagine it would be like summer in Northern Europe used to be.
Was the adoptive father, Sir Darry, a mighty man from Braavos or connected to the Sealord? It may be possible, but again, would the Sealord have allowed mere servants to steal his possessions after his death? Especially if he had left everything to two Targaryen children, that could have been a resource to Braavos?
And if everything happened in Dorne, how the heck can you explain that the children were driven out by the servants?! You would expect that Viserys and Danny would have been under Doran's strict watch and such a thing would have been prevented.
But wherever the house with the red door is, I do think you are right: it's not about the house or some baby swap, bit about alliances.
Awesome video, keep up the good work. You have a very Good way of explaining things. Can't wait to see what your next video is, maybe one about Jon Snow coming back to life in winds of winter? And what chapter do you think he would be brought back.
This is so cool, I love the depth of your research.
Another good video. Keep it up Joe. I just finished dance of dragons for a 2nd time. Now I'm going for my 3rd time lol to see what I missed. I absolutely can't wait for Winds Of Winter
Amazing video! Been subscribed with notifications for awhile now! I dont think Ive seen a video on this topic so awesome job bringing fresh content to my notification box!
Get ready for more :)
Joe Magician heck yeah came looking for more yesterday
Blake Hunt, I’m not really into Game of Thrones anymore, got burnt out. But I guess I missed whatever it is you are talking about. Sorry 🤷🏻♂️
Love the graphics you have for the pictures and chapters
thank you ! ;)
THE👏LEMON👏TREE👏IS👏IN👏DORNE👏👏👏👏👏👏 j/k it’s in Braavos
BTW: QUALITY VIDEO!!!!
I'm watching you Gray
Just found you. Thoughtful, excellent!
After reading the books, it is so much fun to see the diversity of opinion all the youtube content creators have. It's even better when they agree with your own suppositions.
I feel that way about the community, there's so many voices and people sharing ideas that there's bound to be someone who you agree with most of the time. Glad to have another Braavosi lemon tree ally.
Excellent video man..Can i ask you something ?Talking for the Lemon Trees and the lemons in Dannys story...can you see other symbolism in that?A marriage symbolism?In my country [Greece]and in some other Mediterranean countries[Italy ,Monaco,Spain ...]is a wedding ancient custom to offer flowers from a lemon or orange tree or to offer Lemons or Oranges in the couple who is married or even to decorate the church or the couples new home with lemon tree or orange tree flowers ..for to give good luck or fortune to them in their new life..So im wondering if all this lemon stuff could mean marriage for Danny in the books[in the show will happen in S8]...with Aegon or even Jon[if he there resurrected at TWOW]....Also combining that with what Danny actually wants [a family and a home]..i see a lemon marriage hint there ..In Sansas story also are lemons[lemoncakes ]..Maybe Danny and Sansa to be married on TWOW[and in the show] ..Danny with Aegon [books]or Jon[show] and Sansa with Harry Hardying [books]or Gendry[show]..idk..what do you think of this?
I think it's a nod to the marriage pact with Dorne for sure.
Great work. Very interesting and well done
This is the only complete analysis of the lemon tree and house with the red door. I'm now a new subscriber! A huge problem remains. Dorne was deeply antitargaryen throughout the histories. Those facts don't support Dorans or Oberyns plans for a marriage alliance. Also a cautionary note, don't be too sure about the mummers dragon being Griff, it may ge Daenerys -Dayne heiress, She may well be the Daughter of Rhaella and Sir Arthur Dayne!
That's a pretty cool theory for she haves her mothers nature but i predict that the first azor ahai was actually of house dayne and his sword was the name morning after the long night so their decendant being the new azor ahai and fitting every azor ahai requirement and the waking dragons from stone also aegon 5 the unlikely, his mother was of house dayne and her bloodline must've kept the targaryen dragon bonding alive and not dying out, for outer marrying and why they couldn't awake dragons from stone, but dany can that would be so cool.
Or the daughter of Aerys Targaryen and Ashara Dayne (Dayne-Aerys)
This video is from MAY?! I just discovered your channel and I love it. I like your logic. ☀️
Yup! I'm not the fastest at making these unfortunately
Good video. PJ doornish master plan is still much coller
Very good videos man. Nice presentation too. Subbed. :)
Excellent video!
Love the video and your content. You make rigorous efforts to keep close to the books and no let you be carry away !
I think Dany being in Braavos is the most probable. But even without the Braavosi weather there is problems with this option.
First of all, why Viserys and Dany had to flee and why are they expelled? I've trouble seeing why the death of Ser Wilhem is the turning point, it'll have to be something more impactful. Like the death of the Sealord who sheltered them. The new Sealord probably opposed with the Valyrian heritage of the Targaryen, will have good reason to kick them out.
During all the books, we've seen unreliable POV, so I'll be careful with words from an abused child. It's really easy even for an adult to create false memory, so I'll not bet Dany's memories to be perfect recollection of her childhood.
My last point is about Dorne. I agree with Martell' brothers working together, but if we can speculate of sympathetic views for Rhaegar's cause, Dorne has every reasons to be resentful with Lyanna's rapt, Elia and her children being kept as hostages to assure Dornians loyalty.
We also know that Viserys shown early signs of madness, no doubt that Elia and Prince Lewyn have reported the information to Doran. If we add the bloody history between Dorne and the Targaryens, we can say that a true alliance was never on Doran's mind.
The Martell have also bad blood with the Blackfyre who have been support by the Yronwood, their rivals in Dorne.
My opinion is that Dora is currently and was always looking to create chaos between the factions in order to restore Dornian independence. Their greater strength is that they can sustain invasion, so by encouraging factions to kill each other, they can expect to rule themselves again.
Brilliant, thank you
This is a well reasoned video, as I have come to expect from Joe Magician, but something's not right, regardless of where Danny's lemon tree was located.
You posit that all this imagery is designed by GRRM to illustrate Doran's longstanding plan to bring back Targaryen power to avenge House Martell's losses. If Doran Martell is serious about forging the marriage alliance with the dragons after all these years, why was his plan so meager in training and supplying his emissaries to get things done? Quentyn was ludicrously bereft of necessary preparatory information and travel support in his mission to woo Daenerys, resulting in diplomatic buffoonery and roasted princelet. Arrianne is woefully undertrained, underinformed, and underbright to lead her mission to woo Aegon. Already we've seen her send back messages to Doran with hasty & flawed information. Her only talent so far is being gorgeous, which just might be enough to capture Aegon's 15 year old hormones, but I suspect her offer of troop support is as much a desert mirage as her ability to play cyvasse.
Doran seems more intent on sacrificing his heirs than achieving a dragon related legacy/ambition. But then, maybe he's not too bright either, thus explaining his inadequacies in project management as well as his heirs'. I keep hoping the Dorne story will get better, but so far, ...
The reason is unfortunately what makes him ambitious enough to try a rebellion: his intelligence. He's constantly seeing threats in the dark, reading dangers before they emerge, trying to sidestep his enemies. But it makes him overly cautious, he doesn't want to get caught too early. It's also that Dorne is very weak militarily, if he gets caught he won't be able to stop a united Barartheon army, blockade, or embargo. Too paralysed by his intelligence to make a bold move.
That's because Doran's not banking on them succeeding - he's using them to play for time while he goes about his actual plans. He doesn't want them KILLED but he wants them with their hands full while he pursues other means. Hence the chapters where Doran's putting up with shit from his family - including a bizarre coup attempt from Arianne herself.
@@JoeMagician Dorne's military might is based in geography - if they can coax an enemy to invade Dorne than the enemy is done - not even the dragons could invade Dorne - but if Dorne has to leave their environ to support an external ally - like Aegon for instance - that becomes much more difficult. Beyond the Stoney Dornish and 'Vulture Kings' which historically raided the Reach Dorne doesn't seem to have a large history of invading other parts of Westeros. That said - I don't think Doran's banking on his children succeeding as much as he needs them to bide their time in a way which relieves some of the pressure Doran is feeling.
@@fuzzydunlop7928 what is Doran pursuing then?
Yes! Another video!
Con of Thrones special :)
This video raises many questions, one being the vexing question of Syrio Forel. He claimed to have been First Sword to the Sealord of Braavos for some nine or so years. If that was the case, he would surely have known about the connection between Braavos, Dorne and the Targaryen fugitives. If so, what was he doing in the Red Keep. It's obvious he didn't inform Robert Baratheon about it, or any high ranking person in the castle. He surely didn't find himself in the Red Keep by accident or through pure luck. I'm convinced Syrio Forel survived his encounter with Ser Meryn Trant. However, I'm not entirely sure he was who he claimed to be.
Excellent! Now if only The Winds of Winter will be released!😨
One day right?
Joe Magician 😢
I never bought that Dany and Viserys grew up in Dorne - if that were the case that would've been one of the first conversations Quentyn had with her - to make her remember, that her past is in Dorne and she ought to be more loyal to this past. If she had grown up in Dorne, with all of the talk between the Martel's and the Toland's and all the other Dornish houses about the Targs in the books SOMETHING would've popped up in conversation - it would've been a secret but at the very least Quentyn would've been prepped about this on his mission to woe Dany.
Very satisfying thank you!
There’s a few things I find off about this though. For starters the Martells surely have no interest in supporting any targareyen, let alone one that has absolutely nothing to offer and was son to a lunatic. Let’s not forget Their father essentially held Oberyns beloved sister hostage to keep them loyal and essentially caused the deaths of her and her children.
Then there’s the question of why willem darry dying would cause everyone to suddenly turn their backs on them. Surely if the martells were supporting them it wouldn’t happen and if it were on the sealords estate he wouldn’t allow servants to just steal what would be his.
Jfieldsend94 The Prince of Dorne betrothed his heir to Viserys Targaryen in a binding marriage contract. Oberyn Martell would’ve started a rebellion for Viserys, had he been prince of Dorne. House Martell supports House Targaryen. Except for abandoning Viserys & Daenerys when they were impoverished orphans. It’s complicated.
Daenerys didn't live in Braavos - she doesn't even fucking remember Titan of Braavos. Mero straight up says Titan of Braavos doesn't have a tail to turn and if she ever saw the Titan and she is like lol TF is a Titan. So no Daenerys didn't grow up in Braavos unlike Viserys who may accompany her to a free city on Braavosi coast as she remembers traveling to Braavos as a grow up as well. For Lemons to grow in Braavos they need glass gardens with quality Myrish glass without any colors, Jon says WF glass gardens were colored but they were built on hot springs so quality ones were not needed. Daenerys remembers colored glasses instead.
Soooooo good! Thank you. 🙂
Yesssss!!!! Big like even before watching the video.
Have you ever been to Venice? It's wet and hot for a lot of the year. Lemons would grow
Really wish you made more video's like this. You deserve so many more subs tbh. And I think that your subs would go up faster if these were 75% of the content.
Best wishes
Wow, thank you!
I liked the video, and I am not saying your theory is definitely off, but you are wrong about the lemon tree having a couple of years of summer to grow.
The mistake you're making is that Dany lived there when she was really young, no older than 5 and probably even younger. Robert's Rebellion ended 15 years before the start of the books, or thereabouts, and the summer has lasted for 9 years. So in the time Daenerys was in the House with the Red Door, it wasn't one long summer. In fact, in her first chapter in AGoT we learn she was born during a summer storm, so we know there has been at least one cycle through the seasons in her early childhood.
Now, I have no idea how fast lemon trees can grow, or how harsh the winters are in Braavos (though I guess not that mild, as freezing rain is common during autumn), but I do think it is unlikely the House with the Red Door is actually in Braavos. GRRM keeps giving hints about lemon trees not being there in TWoW, when we know about the marriage pact with the Martells already. To me that indicates this mystery is still unresolved.
To be clear, the theory is that the house with the red door isn't in Braavos and she grew up elsewhere. I'm saying that theory is wrong.
@@JoeMagician I understood that, and while I don't think you're right I still liked your video on it. It was for the most part well explained and thought out, but you did make a mistake in your argument, which I wanted to point out.
Order of the green hand is attacking the dorne questions from another angle but I love this
Sold..Preston gonna be pissed..lol
It's Tyrosh. Probably took out to not give the reader another pointless location early on.
Yeah, Dany also has the Tyroshi accent.
Glad I followed through to the end. I'd thought you were nuts to take the Lemon Tree in Braavos seriously. Ah, maybe you still are, I'm not convincedas the BS detector on Dany's memory is strong, but it's not 100% impossible anymore. You very well may be on to something. At the least, you presented your point well.
Can confirm, am nuts
@@JoeMagician I don't know if you check the comments on these old videos but I've changed my mind. I now think you've gotten this right.
Venice mixed with Seattle, ahahahaha! Fucking brilliant!
Did the Sealord have velociraptors in his menagerie?
He sure did
@@JoeMagician that doesn't sound like a simple quiet life she keeps longing for.
New sub here. I like this video, as I'm a proponent of theories that simplify rather than complicate their relevant mysteries, but I'm not quite convinced yet. Dany's first chapter seems to make it clear that Dany isn't exactly who she thinks she is, and she's young enough that most of her memories are super unreliable. Maybe those were just stylistic choices? Either way, thanks for the great video!
Think the uncertainty of her identity is more stylistic and moving her plot forwards than a reality. She embraces Dothraki culture like a parched person finding water. She may be mixing up details, however the growing connections between Dorne and point to that she's not mistaken about these important details.
And thank you for subscribing! I've got more tricks up my sleeve to come.
One correction - Arianna wasn't sent to marry fAegon, only to ascertain his verify his identity. The idea for a potential marriage is something Arianne comes up with en route to meet with fAegon.
Damn, it’s been a long time since I read through ASOIAF, & I had always thought of GRRM as a next-level literary genius, but your analysis of these selections really made me appreciate the quality of his prose & his technique on a whole new level. So many of his descriptions are not only beautiful, lyrical, & poetic, but simultaneously serve as subtle analogies & other devices. It really makes me want to re-read the series with a more analytical eye, rather than getting caught up in the imagery & the narrative & not over-thinking things. Certainly videos on many channels have shown me that it’s a worthwhile effort; one that really comes to mind is a video called something like Shade of the Evening & the Black Oily Stone, which also delved into whole worlds of hidden depth regarding the Weirwood & Shade trees that I had completely overlooked on first reading. Developing a more full picture of the connections between Euron, Bloodraven, Bran, Robin Arryn- all the psychic/magickal characters & both of the polar opposite trees whose products (Weirwood paste & Shade of the Evening) enhance their magic/psychic/mystical abilities & give them their mystical visions... I would actually be curious if GRRM ever read Aleister Crowley’s The Drug or other similar writings of his about “elixirs” or “strange drugs” that give people profound visions, allowing them to peer beyond the veil in some respect or contact/unite with some higher entity. It’s not like Crowley had a monopoly on the concept of psychedelic shamanism by any means- there are a million ways he could’ve come across these ideas or imagined them/experienced them himself. But there is a striking similarity in tone between some of the esoteric writings about alchemists & other mystics consuming (often, but not always, plant-based) drugs or admixtures- not unlike the way ayahuasca, peyote, etc. have been used traditionally- & these substances allowing them to transcend their normal mental limitations & attain power, knowledge, etc.. With or without drugs, this kind of inward journey & subsequent alchemical transformation of the self is certainly a running theme across many, many spiritual & occult traditions, from the story of Hermes Trismegistus to the Buddha on down the line.
Bravos won’t support lemon trees. Not in George’s world. No matter what the royal whatever society says.
Another excellent video and perfect explanation! Keep them coming!
I just don't see the point of GRRM making it abundantly clear that lemons don't (at least not commonly) grow in Braavos unless to imply that the house with the red door wasn't there. It's like chekhov's gun. What the implications of this are, I don't know, but I do not believe Dany grew up in Braavos. Nevermind that there are also no green fields to frolic through in Braavos either. Either Dany is remembering a dream that never actually happened, or the house with the red door was not in Braavos. None of Dany 's fond memories of the house with the red door sound like Braavos, she doesn't even remember a sea-salt smell.
Exactly! Also the fact that Dany doesn't remember any palace or castle, if she live in the Sealords Palace she would totally remember it! And she clearly specifies that she lived in a HOUSE not a palace, yes the house was big but Daenerys knows the difference between a house and a palace lol
In grrm original magazine realise of blood of the the dragon the house with the red door is actually in tyrosh and that's why the poisoner asks her if she's from tyrosh because she has a tyrosh i accent then you have the Marcella plot of travelling to bravos then to dorne it's not the most direct root but it's the safest I personally think she's has something to do with the dolts in dorm vicserys even calls her a dolt and there's PROBLY a baby swap somewhere but there is something wrong with danerys memory's ps sorry I wrote this comment at the start of your video
I sometimes think the first book has somethings in it that don't make sense because George didn't know where his world was going to be by the time Dance came out.
It is clearly incorrect (i now it's 2 years old comment). Draft for Clash of Kings with more information about Deanerys' journey and events at Dragonstone was ready when Game of Thrones passed through last corrections and was published. So George knew what he wanted to write
The beams trabeations of the houses in Braavos would have likely been wooden any way! In medieval times (even though medieval times have to be considered extremely various and different from each other, because the Middle Ages go from the fall of the Roman Empire to the time before Renaissance, roughly 900/1000 years depending on the region) there were no other materials for structural beams; so if any interior space was to be covered the choice were between stone or brick vaults, or wooden beams.
The architecture with stone vaults was mostly reserved for churches and palaces, because that was the most refined and expensive type of architecture; while common people houses would have been covered with brick or concrete vaults (even if the brick and concrete were low standard and made with economic materials), or some type of wooden beams structure.
Then Braavos has one of the largest fleet in the world, and ships are made of wood!
But we know the islands around Braavos are covered with forests, providing the city with both protection and extensive source for wood (may that be for naval engineering, construction or to be consumed by heating systems).
So having wooden beams is to be expected, both in the houses of the common people (were it was an economic and practical way to build, easy to implement even without particular skills) as in the houses of the rich people, were wooden beams would come in large dimensions and carved (so the wood would be most expensive coming only from the tallest and most valuable trees).
In our world there are examples, during late medieval times, of great halls in palaces and castles were wooden beams were used to cover extremely ample spaces!
Wooden beams to cover an interior space were employed when obtaining an ambient at a superior level was desired.
So wooden beams were made use in multi level buildings. Because having a vault instead of a beam structure would increase greatly the heights between floors (and also for structural reasons: a vault structure generates great pressure horizontally).
So there you have it: I hope you may find some avail in this information.
Also the point is that there's nothing unusual in wooden beams architecture in Braavos!
Great video guys, working with PoorQuentyn has produced a very enjoyable result! Thanks for sharing!
Excellent information, for sure there's nothing odd about the beams. I just included it because Dorne truthers often include it in their lists of things that don't make sense
It's alright! I just felt like talking a little about Middle Ages construction technologies...
By the way, how can you convince someone who believes Daenerys mis-remembers entire years of her life?... and Viserys too, or maybe he was just lying to her, who knows the fuck why?...
Thanks for picking up my comment.
Great job Joe Magician...... So the green fields & perfumed smell are just an anomaly from it being Tyrosh originally? Mmmm. I agree with your link to Dorne & the marriage pact 100% but I think her memories are blended.
Great job from Emmett on the quotes too 😀
Most likely! It seems a few wires got crossed when he corrected the mistake between versions. Or perhaps Dany is mixing up her memories a bit, such things can happen with childhood memories as you say. It's easy enough to say that Samwell and Arya haven't visited the place Dany grew up or it has a luxury smell on purpose. The Sealord would be able to afford to do that.
Cannot get away from the green fields issue though 😉 even the sealord didn't have those!
Another option for the fields could be that she's subconciously associating the green fields of Westeros that she has been told about - with 'home.'
JoJo Lady Dayne or, because she was small when she lived there, she thought the sizable grass and garden behind the sealord's palace was enormous. However if she went back now it'd be a lot smaller than her memories tell her.
JoJo Lady Dayne yeah green fields don't seem rightl either although the rest seems plausible
Brilliant. 😊
No, you
The lemon tree was outside
I don't think a banysawap is tinfoil. I am 100% sure there was one. History is repeating itself. And because Jon came up with the idea to protect a child it happend in the past.
I guess Aegon is realy Aegon.
I always felt that Braavos seemed more like Amsterdam than Venice.
Awesome.
Very astute explanation for that pesky detail!
I'm still convince that Dany was not burn in Braavos , but you got a decent counter arguments
Also don't think its in Bravos or Dorn. Doran would of never kicked them out.... and pretty sure there's almost no grass in Dorn accept in the marches possibly... And how would the trees survive Bravos' weather without being in a greenhouse?
They're not a particularly fragile plant. As I said, if you place it somewhere protected from the cold like in a courtyard with lots of sun they'll do just fine. They won't necessarily bear a lot of fruit, but Dany never mentions actually remembering there being fruit from the tree. Just the smell which implies flowers. Plants can grow outside of ideal conditions, they'll just not be as big or as lush or not bear the same quality of seeds.
And for all the people coming up with simple reasons why this is not true, I think this guy is right because this is exactly GRRM’s type of twist, it would utterly confound all the prophecy readers believe they have sorted out, which is also a main goal of GRRM.
It could be that the long seasons of the GoT world means that you could grow small lemon trees during summers in temperate climates so lang as you are perpared to watch them die each winter and have to replant them when spring comes. I have no idea how long lemon trees take to grow though. Also it could be the case that due to the long seasons the lemon trees of GoT have evolved to be able to survive the long winters with sub-optimal growing temperature where on earth this adaptation was not necessary.
Btw, no one ever mentions a green house by the sealords palace
Do you ever watch the Order of the Green Hand's videos? They are alright, but according to them, EVERYONE is a part of some conspiracy lmao
In a sense, as people have their own goals they work towards and sometimes do that collaboratively. But in general theories that rely on huge amounts of people working together secretly with no leaks or 4d chess is where people lose me.
I wouldn’t compare Lannister guards knowledge of growing citrus to a dornishmans knowledge of winter lol those men surely grew up in the westerlands which share a border with the reach, the most fertile lands in Westeros. so I’d be willing to assume that the farms and lands of the Rock and lands of the western lords are capable of growing citrus.
How come you don't have 2.3 million subs?
I just started a couple of months ago! Give me time haha. And share the videos too!
He says A-Dorne-d a couple times in Danys chapters
All hail the truth has been found! 👏👏👏
Speaking of the last bits of this video - about the surprising turn-cloaks - I REALLY hope 'Nimble' Dick's prophetic "We're all good Dragon folk up Crackclaw way" gets a pay-off. Crackclaw Point has been de-facto independent this entire time since Robert's Rebellion - too worthless to waste the considerable effort required to conquer it personally, but still an entire section of Westeros featuring foreshadowed Targaryen loyalists. One's who seem to be in stasis, waiting for the return of the Dragon to Westeros. Brienne's chapters were always my favorite in AFfC so I can't wait.
This is late but what if the left on the coast of bravos?
I like that this was more analysis of what's in the books rather than using a bunch of quotes from George about his writing to make conclusions. The amount of outside quotes in this was just a perfect sprinkle. Good job.
love the video but just a note... the back round music makes me so tired and gets a bit annoying due to being almost as loud as your voice. other than that it's a great video great editing!
Thank you for suffering through it :) It's something I'm trying to fix as I make more
I'm really curious as to what the "hairy mouse-pigs as big as cows" are. All of the other animals listed are ones from our own world. I'm struggling to think of the planet Earth version of this particular animal
could be capybaras? they’re surprisingly big
@@basiliska I love this, because I love capybaras haha
This is NOT Bravvos
This would of been really cool in the show. It would of been a much better dorne subplot than what we got.
Couldn’t watch this video because the music was too nostalgic and depressed the hell outta me!
It's a depressing topic and video, but yes I probably overdid it
The Martells, and everyone else for that matter, are pretty relaxed about the fact that Rheygar ditched his wife Elia and their kids for Lyana. Rage at the Lannisters and Robert is obviously justified. But why the deep loyalty to the Targs?
Can this just be Pentos, before moving into Illyrios manse maybe he just set up Dany and Viserys and Willem Darry in a house he bought, all the memories seem to fit Pentos
Is that Alice Cooper reading from the books?
Yes!
Maybe it was in a more southern part of braavos
R+A=D confirmed LOL. Not talking about Aerys and Rhealla. Yes Rheager plus Ashara. Interesting video loved it, you get a sub 😀
10:43 TANLTIB CONFIRMED?!?!
You seem to forget that all Blackfyres ARE Targaryens from bother maternal and paternal ancestry
Preston Jacobs should watch this video.
Preston proved she was somewhere else I think
bro forgot to call Saul 💀💀
If Danny and Viserys stayed in the sealord palace in Braavos... if you're filthy rich like Sealord of Braavos, if I want a Lemon tree!, I will get a Lemon Tree. also we only see Braavos from two point of view, Arya and Sam and they are around the poorest part of braavos, we haven't seen the most richest part of Braavos yet
Doesn’t the app explicitly say she was in Braavos?
It does, and so does she!
App is BS so is her memories.
What the hell is a mouse pig? 9:15
Music to loud bro