Artist QUESTIONS Filian Merch - Commercial Use Dilemma (LIVE)
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we've had waifus and now scuff, Andrew is now officially unofficialy a vtuber
And the EN Curse is strong with this one.
I always wonderd how Filian got the rights for merch, for the free models. Turns out she didn't XD
Btw its really funny, that Neuro got a faster upgrade to a own model than Filian to date.
And Ironmouse gets a new model every other week
Curse you PH internet service providers!! this was a good topic but PH internet strikes again!! đą
As a VrChat avatar creator...
Artists can't "JUST sell commercial rights". That's not how the VrChat avatar market works. Piracy is too easy, and competitive prices makes it not viable to sell avatars for high prices. It is already hard enough to stay afloat as an avatar creator, doubling or tripping prices to account for commercial rights is unsustainable and stupid.
Remember, these avatars are not sold for VTubing or content creation in mind. They are sold for ordinary players to wear in VrChat. Some avatar creators also provide an alternative fee for buying commercial rights with the avatar, but it's not that common, and as we see in Fillians case, it would not matter.
Someone bought and uploaded the Rindu model to VrChat and set it to public, then Fillian found it and started using it. She made it her identity and clearly didn't give two shits about commercial rights or even buying the non-commercial version from the creator. She admitted to not paying a cent for the avatar, so including commercial rights in the cost would not do anything here. It would just make the avatar too expensive to ever take off, and it would fall into obscurity, like 99% of avatars made.
finally, someone with vr avatar market knowledge talking... im tired of listening to a bandwagon know-it-all all yappers on twitter explaining how design works or such.
And yet I see tons of 3D artists do exactly that, sell assets with different tiers of license.
Almost as if it is literally that exactly simple.
Was hoping youâd cover this topic because it seemed right up your alley, and itâs interesting to boot
If having a ready made model is this complicated, I think I'll debut as a PNG tuber with my own art... Its not as pretty as the professionals, but its safer in terms if ownership. Better safe than sorry, as they say.
Just don't sell your merchs based on copyrighted ip, it's not that hard
Super Scuff Edition đ
One thing I've been seeing a lot of today was people going on internet archive and seeing that the part about use in tangible goods wasn't there until recently. Perhaps Filian was operating based off of that?
There are clips of her saying that she just ripped the model from vrchat and didn't pay anything
yea because it literally has been on vrchats public domain use area since the start of vrchat. modeler didn't file copyright or trademark so VRChat ripped the whole thingâ@@meri373
I think regardless of the "use in tangible goods" existing just recently, the wording of other clause like in VRChat might already enough to address Filian like :
(Lines below are made up, just for example)
"This product is free for use only in VRChat." > Filian might already been too opportunistic.
"This product is free to use under current use of VRChat EULA." > VRChat community content clause "Creators should consent for use in VRChat, and VRChat is not held liable if content were used somewhere else for monetary gain without permission of the creator" > Filian gets a temporary pass but have to rebrand with all that income she has gotten. VTubers has lotsa costumes after all.
Either way, Jingo is nowhere under fault for not knowing this happened nor for making a new terms of use. Its easy to comprehend too with images unlike most Kafkaesque EULA. Filian can only respond accordingly, but I suggest get a new costume. It can take 6 months but she HAS to make it. It gets a nice fanfare too.
Still, the best way to judge someone is when they address an inevitable mistake. For me, it was a forgone conclusion the moment she allows AI images, but it should not dictate (beyond suggestion) for the real result for this one.
Apparently the OG download had a readme file that had the terms written in there and the 2023 moved them to the booth page.
@@meri373 Considering that she has credited Jingo for the model in the past, I'm pretty sure she was just bullshitting about not paying for it.
6:38 Stream connection tanks
8:24 Stream is back
9:18 Picking it back up from the top
17:35 Stream tanks again
19:26 Stream is back, LM reads some superchats
20:24 From the top
21:37 Stream Tank Season 3
23:42 Reconnected, reading more superchats
24:30 Moving onto the next topic
28:08 Stream Tank Season 4
There's another lag drop immediately so the useless footage continues for longer this time
32:40 Actually back this time? Reading superchats.
39:15 Kim Jung Mindset. LM switches off his camera to reduce bandwidth. Minor lag prior to this, but watchable.
46:20 Moderately laggy audio starts here
48:18 LM gave up and reconnected, camera back on
28:09 Stream Tank Season 4
29:59 Reconnected about TOS
30:57 Stream Tank the Return
32:39 Reconnected SC
38:17 LM Wink ;)
39:15 Kim Jung Mindset
@@ZynkOxhyde Sorry about that. I'm keeping up with the HololiveDodgers hashtag live at the same time I watch this stream, but I've been updating it as I watch through.
you my good sir, are a hero!
Falseeyed did a video on, good smile removed it's advertisement. Seems the mint owner has been reached, still waiting on jingo. Filian's team are working on this & her people told us in discord not to discuss that it would be resolved soon.
Didn't get to see that in discord. Good to know it's getting handled though. Filian is one of my favorites and the first Vtuber I ever found.
â@@06twarmods told us earlier today.
Yeah i just check the ads is being taken down on facebook
I'm glad our artistic fox isn't toast
what team? /joke
I'm embarrassed for this kind of internet as a Filipino...
Yes we can't have that Little Philippinian Boy gets harassed!! đ
Where did my comment go wtf
@@rhaven090 You don't comment often on YT , right ? Sometimes your comment can get Thanos'd for no reason at all.
I can understand Filian keeping this model since it's one of her original ones when she got popular but it's past time that she needs a new, completely original and copyrighted model. This is just gonna keep on repeating if she doesn't wake up and move on.
She can even get a legally different, bespoke model that's fairly significantly reminiscent of this model and be just fine. No need to rebrand.
@@gargomaxthalus4195 Yep, just like we saw with Neuro-sama and new Doki's model, it's really not rocket science. I have no idea why she has not done this already, with all of her resources it should be a piece of cake.
I... I don't think she's, and no offense, but I don't think she's intelligent enough to know she needs to change or why until she gets sued.
Hopefully she doesn't get screwed over
@@ImprovmanZero It's... not Fillian who would get screwed over. Fillian screwed the model creators over, she is the villain here lol... she pirated, stole, and profited off the artists' work.
Goodsmile does have a building in the US. It's in LA. They have a whole American team.
Yea but it more to distribution but all the decision making are are done in Japan.
@@ohlalalala1000 maybe just some sort of storage/warehouse purposes? coz they can easily lower tax of the products and avoid expensive shipping
@@2Btoobee Not sure since GSC have a lot of partner shop both retail and online. They also have small team to do promotion,pr etc. Not saying American team but more likely EN team.
@@ohlalalala1000 This still refutes Andrews point about them having nothing state side, especially since he spent a good 5 mins trying to emphasize they had absolutely nothing here.
If Mom, AKA Amalee, Monarch, AmaLeeMonarchMultiverse MonarchThe Butterfly QueenLeeandLie. Is the SCUFF Queen! Now we have the SCUFF LAWYER!
Update: The artist of the model went on Twitter this morning saying that she and Filian are in the process of working out an agreement amicably.
Fillian had years to get her own original model. With all the bread she rakes in I'm surprised she never did it.
Iâve come to the conclusion that Filian is either just really stupid, doesnât care, or a combination of both.
Dokiâs original character creator, Klaeia, was consulted and aware of the nendoroid; which goes to show if you really care about creatives and assets, youâd make sure people are represented and their rights maintained.
Filian just doesnât care.
She is too stupid to have done this on purpose and I know this because she comes from VRChat.
As someone with Kikyo a booth model. I do own my commercial rights. I made sure i did before buying.
It's obviously fine for Filian to use this model for content creation, but she's so big she really should've thought about getting a unique model of her own to get into merchandising a long time ago. It's not like she doesn't make money. Vedal figured this out for Neuro pretty quickly before he started getting Neuro merch made.
The nendoroid isn't even the first Filian figure. Or the second. Not to mention other types of merch.
I do like Filian (mostly when she's collabing with other vtubers I like, even if her streams are a pain because of all the sound alert shit and the high ad frequency that none of my adblockers want to block), but I was wondering about this whole model thing for a while and apparently it's finally coming to bite her in the ass.
I can't believe Andrew was a robot this whole time!
I think Filian's biggest mistake was not debuting a model she owns entirely before becoming one of the biggest vtubers. Her brand has become associated with this model and now any new model will be seen as trying to get away from this controversy (which, to be fair, she should do 100%).
God dammit Andrew can you please center the timing of your streams around my life so I don't miss them? Screw everyone else.
Oh, well, guess I have something to keep me occupied for the next hour. I saw this on my feed and was interested.
lmao
Thanks for the stream despite the internet issues!
Thanks for the stream!
I think the ban on political/religious use is applicable to something like an official political party/religious org. buying the model for use in their media content. Not for prohibiting an individual user from mentioning politics/religion. It would probably apply to an individual if they started actively campaigning or proselytizing for a party/religion, but not merely giving their opinions about things.
It's not as easy as "Make it more expensive and give them rights".
One problem with including commercial rights and selling it for more is that the models aren't necessarily produced to be used by rich vtubers, but rather normal people with a limited wallet, who wants to go onto VRChat or Resonite or wants to start out as a smol vtuber and don't have the skills to make their own models.
Then you can't just increase the price to a commercial level and sell it with goods rights because your target audience can't afford it and your target audience don't have a reason or means to produce physical goods.
I'm genuinely curious. The original post on booth (lidia nekozawa shows this proof in her coverage) shows that there was actually no terms of service originally and that they only added that later and even raised the prices. Now, no she did not buy it and got it off VRC - however I am curious if when she obtained the model with there being no terms if that makes any sort of difference. I'm also wondering why they suddenly chose to add terms like a year ago (or at least lidia only showed the terms being updated in 2023)
There's a clip where Filian admits to pirating the model using 3rd party software with VRChat. So she may have 0 rights to the model.
Doctor: Robo-Mindset is not real, he can't hurt you. Robo-Mindset: 6:40 đ
I loved the robotic underwater noises
Legal Metalset
Yessss he got the opening. I see he must have watched the first episode too.
Thanks for the info, Long Robot
Tenma haa to be extra agressive as she is the smallest white predator when around fillian, smug alana or kirsche
Aggressive is Tenmas default state.
Not just booth Sir Andrew, people just don't check the ToS for free models or assets use specifically the commercial use part. It's mostly younger people as well as Filian is a Zoomer
She also does have ADHD which most certainly doesn't helpđ
@@06twar I noticed when i watched her collab with Sayu as crushing the water melon with rubber bands was torture for her as wayu got a non ripe water melon thus it did not burst lol
I do find it funny how she is using cocaine jokes to cover up the ADHD though
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena I mean I have friends that also do that đ it's a funny little joke kinda thing and fits her brand for the most part. Gremlin energy go brrr
@@06twar Funny little jokes till people actually question if they were jokes lol
That doesnât excuse shit. Sheâs an adult
Filian case is like this, imagine you go to pay library. Everyone can go to that library but it pay to get in. In that pay library, there's specific book that only available in that library. It's easy to understand that you can't just copy the book and sell it outside but Filian case is different. She make audiobook from that specific book and sell it. Yes, you can read the book but you can't just sell the audiobook. Even though, your voice is your original content. The content of that specific book is only available at that library. People specifically go to that library just to read that book. The author get money by putting that specific book at that library for people to read. Even though everyone can read it, doesn't mean you can just sell the variation of that book. That audiobook is still that specific book even tho it in different form.
Plus Filian was pretty famous that people associates that audiobook as her own book. Yes she can live streaming about that book and give her commentary but the audiobook is straight up reading from that book. People don't even know that audiobook is base on book from that pay library. She even sell freaking CD of that audiobook with that book cover design on that CD but instead of putting the book name, she name the audiobook Filian, her name. She didn't say who the author of that book that she make the audiobook from. Because she not being clear make people thought, since she name the audiobook using her name, she definitely the author.
Btw, the author gain nothing from Filian famous audiobook. The author don't even know, don't even consent, didn't even get any money. Plus Filian even imply she get into the library illegally and she didn't pay like others (aka she extract the model from vrchat).
So,
Library is booth
Author/writer is the creator aka Jingo
Audiobook is merch
Specific book is Rindo 3D model
For a sec I though it was međ
As a vtuber I started out by using a model available to stream with as basically a test of Live2D. However, I had my own model created and specifically made sure I had commercial rights to it. While this has never been an issue for me (yet), I wanted to make sure I was be good if it ever came up.
The Lil Fil Plush
The YouTooz Filian
The Filian T-Shirt
The Filian Gamersupps
And now, the Filian Nendoroid
5 TIMES?! FILIAN, STOP WITH THE BRAIN DAMAGE, YOUâRE GONNA GET SUED FOR MILLIONS IF NOT BILLIONS!
Edit:
THE STANDEE?! SIX?! FILBERT!!!!
Thanks, LM~! 35:08 was exactly what I was looking to hear... and yet 36:51 put me right back into a state of confusion. If you edit the source material enough so that it's 'legally distinct', what happens with the JP moral 'Right of Integrity'? Permissions on the model were that people could freely edit... sooo...
The issue is that she already used the character design for merch so at the very least there will be talks for compensation. The next step is whether is really want to keep the character (thus buying the rights from the artist) or trying to remake it. For editing the source material, if she actually did that before all of these happened and she didn't actually mention the artist (which I believe she had mentioned) then it is possible to do it, but unfortunately for her she didn't do that, thus if you done it after the fact then there will always be comparison and normally in this kind of problem there is not really a 100% objective way to say that you make enough modification without actually making it totally different and usually someone that do just modification after the fact will lose since it can always be argued that you're just doing it to avoid copyright and there is no way to even feign innocence.
For Filian, she probably can keep the sailor uniform but the hairstyle probably needs to be totally different, which obviously if you do that it will look not like Filian. It will basically be a remake.
You're going Mr Robot on us
The scuff is strong with this one. I feel kinda bad for Filian... Ive watched her stream a few time... She's not well put together. It's part of her charm... But she needs a hands on manager-san of some kind to avoid stuff like this.
0:23 I was never expecting the Shikanoko brainrot to be here. It's so addicting! When are we getting LegalMindset and a few vtubers to dance to the opening?
Shikanoko nokonoko koshitantan đșđđŠđŠ
The Jazz Robot is strong with this one.
Cyber Andrew makes his appearance
Any chance of a video summary of this? It's hard following at times due to all the technical difficulties.
All this legal issue reminds me of Tanya Degurechaff.
DAMNIT I MISSED THIS STREAM!!!!
Andrew missed about a quarter of it too.
@@deltib XD
Buy your imagery with no strings attached, and make sure your contract states upon completion all rights are transferred from artists to buyer.
I have a question; assuming she has enough money, could she just buy the rights to the model for the artist?
Ngl I didn't think LM would have much to talk about in the legal realm involving VTubers after the Selen/Nijisanji fiasco but there seems to be something new every couple weeks. Either this year has been crazy for VTubers or I never realized how often this stuff actually happens.
Beep Bop Robo Lawyer Activate!
Oh silly filian, did so many backflips, she dun broke her brain.
Fillian love tho
Honestly with her popularity, and how much she keeps paying for broken equipment, she should really just pay for a proper model so issues like this won't ever happen again.
Scuff EX achieved.
Holy kentucky fried audio.
neuro base 'model' is legal.. sort of. no modding/redist allowed.
as for the jp/en legal thing... the berne convention gives jp copyright teeth outside of japan. though it does require the claimant to actually sue in the us. doing so in japan would only work against jp companies.
which means quite a few of the merch vendors wouldn't touch filian with a 10 meter pole.
June 2000 what?
Legal mindset is AI all along
LM is a bot, confirmed.
Goofy ahh missed opportunity
GoodSmile probably lost face and some capital here, the chance won't come again ever
Remember even for Hololive, a Nendo is a badge of honor. That's why Kiara whined about her perpetual prototype stage.
I pasting this from another video i commented in in reference to Cases ive heard about to Copyright and artists.
"artists may have won cases like this but they have also lost cases like this.
Capcom's Dead rising was hit with a suit because a filmmakers said they were coping their idea, judge said nah Zombies sin a mall not exactly a unique idea. (CAPCOM vs MKR group "Dawn of the Dead") The Family that owned rights to Original Gone in 60 Seconds movie and the later 2000 Nicholas Cage movie Recently lost their right to the Mustang Fastback "Elanor" because there was no identifiable uniqueness to it. Vs say like the Batmobile which has distinct shapes and styling despite different iterations. Even Michael Bay had to keep Optimus Primes Chest red as that one of his defining features, bay wanted to change it for filming reasons.
The movie the hangover featured a part where Mike Tysons' tatoo was used and put on another character in the movie. tatoo artist sued for royalties and won. now that tatoo has been edited out since. I think same thing happened with basketball player and one of the NBA2k games, had a tatoo sleeve and was represented on game and had to pay out royalties. tatoos were removed since.
So its not open and shut depending on whether or not the artist covered thier own bases too. heck just looking up basic copyrights for "Individual characters outside their original works" in japanese law is very vague."
The question I have Andrew, is if Filian downloaded this model off of VRChat and has no right to use it at all. The US merch companies which have paid her, could they demand she repay all of that money she got as royalties.
I don't know if they will entertain giving Jingo the money but could they come after Filian herself, as I would see it as some sort of fraud.
DDOSed by Rekieta sweepers
My understanding is that Filian originally received the model from her friend Kendomorph in VRChat and updates the model herself with new outfits. She may have bought the rindo model from booth at some point after, but I can't be sure. She's been saying for a while now that she'll get a proper commissioned model but I don't know what's holding her up with that.
Also, I don't think she's maliciously trying to rip of Jingo, I just think she has very poor judgement. This is the same girl who thought it would be a good idea to take several laxatives and see how long she could stream before she pooped herself.
I feel bad for an artist but since this model had been used for merchandise for years already without copyright holder fighting it, pretty sure that's a ground for them losing ownership at this point.
Fillian is ruined now, she is gonna have a hard time finding company's to collab with
I love it
I'm kind of curious and i haven't watched the whole video through yet. wouldn't them NOT going after the other merchandise kind of be some kind of evidence that they haven't been protecting their IP until this point? i feel like there's a defense there.
I going to post a question
Why his a problem now. If it wasn't a problem before what changed.
Because the artist had literally never heard of Filian before the Good Smile announcement. They're Korean and Filian is a complete unknown in Asia.
I'm sorry. I dont buy that it got all way to a Nendoroid being designed and produced without somebody somewhere looking into this. Dude is looking for a bag, nothing more.
Wasn't Filian's model a free to use model?
No the Rindo model costs 7,000 yen
The âMintâ model is also 2500 yen (4000 yen previously)
â@timforsyth15 Always keep a dated copy of whatever license you acquired something under. The Internet can always go publish new, different licenses and terms later and I'd you have a immutable license prior to that you don't want to get the rug pulled out from under you.
More specifically "non exclusive paid license".
Anyone can pay to use the model for streaming and content creation. And these licenses often have some level of restrictions tied to them, often as Filian just found out, merchandising rights being a common restriction.
@@chaon93 On the other hand, both models specifically allow commercial distribution of derivative works.
I'm not convinced the tangible goods clause doesn't only apply if one directly 3d-prints the model or a component thereof.
To me it's not really a legal question, it's more about what makes people to buy it. Is it a model or is it Filian. And I think it's Filian. So legally there might be some huge problems, but to me everything's pretty clear
To further explain: would people buy this merch if it was the original model and it was called whatever, like Karen or something. No. Would people buy a plush fruit snacks pack with Filian's name on it or a t-shirt with whatever, like a text that says "Frick! (c) Filian"? Yes, I believe so. So artists just being greedy, I think. Not saying it's bad, I would've done the same, but maybe with a different approach, like way less public. Cause now people think they're killjoys and they're being greedy and whatever.
You can't call the artists "greedy" when they didn't even claim for royalties or anything in public. They didn't even know about the merch deals until a company in their own country dropped news about the Filian figurine. They posted about the issue on their Twitter without mentioning money. How's that a sign of greed?
If filian is getting sued for stealing someone's art, ie her model, would rekson will also be sued because he use the same model as filian's except with orange strands in the hair?
From what I know about her model, it was at VRChat that you can take for free. So its considered in the public domain since anyone can access it.
Being available for free to the public doesn't make something public domain, they aren't the same thing
First, it's not free. It's 7000 yen. And if you want to make physical good based on it, you had to ask the original artist.
In other words, Filian doesn't have copyright to it. Just permission to use.
I doubt she will get sued. It would cost too much for an overseas lawsuit. Most likely she just pays royalties to the artists, makes an apology, and works on getting her own OC model. That way, everyone "wins."
@@ZeroXSEED VRchat has some serious explaining to do then
using it, if you bought it, for streaming and monetizing streams is fine. the problem is merch and collabs. and yes - the model is paid, its just vrchat is a cesspool
but considering that filian possibly stole this model via vrchat - uh oh.
Isnt some of the merch transformative. I feel like some of them have deviated pretty far from the original art/models.
Artists popping up to say they still own the art they sold is just another thing that drives the production of AI art programs. If buying isn't owning then we all have to make everything ourselves.
If reading a commercial license is too cerebral for you, please do not become a streamer.
Pretty damn sure that the avatar maker kinda lost their rights if they didn't pursue Fillian for not paying for use for the last several years...
The copyright owned by a Japanese company clearly states can be used for streaming & etc but not allowed for merchandise purposes
Why do people believe this meme?
@@mechadeka Because it's true for trademark, I guess people get it confused for copyright.
Pretty sure goodsmile does ship FROM us (if you use their us website), so they have some building somewhere.
Also i bekieve they also had some USA region only releases.