Sodium-ion battery breakthrough. Safer, cheaper and cleaner than Lithium-ion
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- čas přidán 12. 03. 2022
- Sodium-ion batteries have been overshadowed by lithium-ion for decades, but there's a thousand times more sodium in the earth's crust than there is lithium. And now the battery chemistry has been mastered so that sodium-ion batteries have as much energy density as their lithium based competitors. Plus sodium-ion batteries are lighter, safer, cheaper and cleaner than lithium-ion. This one really could be a gamechanger.
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I'm currently doing my PhD on sodium metal batteries and have been making my own Prussian Blue cathodes (more stable but lower performance than Prussian White). It's so great that sodium-ion is starting to break into the commercial market because I really think there are a lot of applications where lithium technologies are not the best option (e.g. stationary storage). However, I don't agree that Prussian White is non-toxic, using Prussian Blue safety data sheet (as they are the same type of compound, just with more or less sodium); Prussian Blue/White has a toxicity and body contact score of 2 (it is toxic through skin, mouth, and inhalation), so it's not the worst... but really not "non-toxic".
I thought I read somewhere that Prusian Blue was used as ink... is there any truth in that??
@@bkucinschi Yes that's right, although the pigment form is not exactly the same as the cathode material. Prussian blue has a really nice deep indigo colour and has been historically used as a pigment. I think you can still buy Prussian Blur pigments today.
Maybe it is nontoxic by the CCP’s standards. Chinese corporations do not tend to prioritize health.
Can you tell about the fire safety in comparison of Li-Ion/LiFePO4? Because Li-Ion is very reactive to oxygene, but also is sodium...
I was also going to ask about fire safety.
I love innovations that help reduce scarcity and environmental harm. This seems like just that. Also, even if it weighs too much for mobile applications, it could still be useful for home batteries or grid-scale batteries, which would be great.
Exactly me thought! Sometimes people get too obsessed with wanting silver bullet solutions, but we use batteries in so many different places that I’m sure there’s a place to use these.
I was also wondering how well they might work for E bikes. The range of a commuter bike isn’t as important since you can just charge the battery under your desk while you work.
@@kanepreston18 I agree , greed is the reason we have so much corruption
they could be even used as ballast for ships, at the bottom of the hulls
My thoughts exactly.
Yes, freeing up what Lithium we do have for mobile applications (phones, laptop, car) where weight matters more
I don’t have an electric car yet … but I love the idea that Sodium-ion batteries are, “cheaper,” and “less toxic,” and “more thermally stable,” than Lithium-ion. All of those are excellent improvements! 🤩👍
Well yes and no…
Sodium metal is more reactive to water with explosive results.
Any kind of humidity getting into the battery will cause a huge hole in your leg if you have that battery in your pocket…
Cheaper? Hardly as all new product take time with manufacturing require more and more production before they can become cheaper…
Less toxic? Hardly as anything battery operated has a high level of toxicity…
Stable? Again hardly, the problem is that you have to be careful because if exposed to oxygen or hydrogen can cause the battery to expand or even worse explode…
We will see whether this battery source is a real reasonable form of replacement or not in the up coming years…
Finally they said the same thing about the Diamond battery but that turned out to be a fraud claim made by marketers trying to hype up for funding sponsorship for the product…
"maintain a capacity as high as 95% after 10,000 cycles"
If true, this will completely change grid energy. Even discharging fully every day, the batteries would maintain 95% capacity for more than 25 years, which is insane.
Now imagine if we spent as much on sodium ion battery tech as lithium tech and what kinds of breakthroughs would be possible.
I also cannot help but consider that this type of technology has the potential to take away the power of so many oppressive states that profit from our use of fossil fuels.
only for the cathode side, the anode sill limiting cycle life to that of lithium batteries.
I agree. The fossil fuel tyrants need to go.
@@fex144 This will not reach market till those tyrants that are in control of it let it happen, if they didn't actively stop it they would lose control. Just imagine what they would do to maintain that control. only way this stuff gets through is if it did it unnoticed(unlikely)... and then it will just be bought for a price and suppressed to stop the damage it is causing them. till they can monopolize on it.
@@Shep01 Certainly the old guard in the USA, such as the Koch Brothers succeeded in squashing tech. But now we have Europe and China pulling for progress. Better days are ahead (If little pouty putin doesn't flip the whole board).
.
massive wind/solar farm, feeding massive de-salination plant, feeding raw materials for massive sodium ion battery plant. probably needs some more detailed drawings for this design, but that's it in a nutshell ;)
the neat thing is that something like a desalination plant could be run entirely by over-producing solar farms so they only run when the electricity is nearly free because the solar production is greater than consumption. so the load is "dispatchable", which can help stabilize the grid in a situation with mostly renewable power.
This would also get rid of the issue of "Brine Disposal" issue of Desalination Plants (Could even use industrial brine waste itself from drilling etc!)
*the chlorine would also be needed to be used, but if mixed with a bio-refinery / power-to-x stuff i bet it could be used*
Yep, I was thinking the same thing. Renewable energy > Desal > Na battery plant and potable water plant > Renewable energy storage = one hell of a virtuous circle. Basically a money making machine.
You do a terrific job of bringing us worthwhile information on technichal breakthroughs and totally relevant subjects in aninteresting clear and cocise format. I thank you very much
Agreed. Sometimes when I’m watching other channels I feel like I’m watching a 10 minute ad put out by the company. That’s never the case with this channel which I really appreciate.
Thank you very much John. I really appreciate that :-)
@@JustHaveaThink Your a fantastic presenter. Leveled in so many aspects. You should be a great fit on the fully charged team, IMHO. Shall we all try to lobby for that, or do you prefer doing your own thing?
Um, have you heard of reading stuff?
@@JustHaveaThink you appreciate comments from dumb people.
Batteries nearly as energy dense as the current Li ion/ Co batteries without these soon to be scarce and expensive metals could really be a game changer. Just when development has reached a roadblock, a breakthrough happens. Affordable EV's for everyman and utility scale energy storage can't come soon enough if we are to save the planet. Wonderful!
The world only dies when god says it dose and nothing we human can do to stop it.
@@calebmauer1751 Can you get me a link to God's demonstration? Was the demonstration made in person or by videoconference?
@@rhenriques11 Actually, he outsourced the demonstration to a sketchy marketing company known as "The Church" who distributed the research through propaganda and guilt inducing moral proclamations which keep the target audience feeling safe by way of reductive explanations of reality.
whats the charging like tho
@@MG-gl7gx That was the Roman Empire that did that dude ;)
Thank you for your report. In the 1980s and 1990s there were considerable efforts to develop Na-based batteries for cars. However, these were high temperature systems working at 270-400°C. And the ceramic electrolyte was expensive to produce. So the development was stopped in the late 1990s. Having taken part in these developments I am even more enthusiastic about the work at CATL. I really hope they will succeed.
I have driven 200 000 km on Sodium-ion batteries, Think Nordic with Zebra batteri! :-)
I suspect you are confusing sodium ion batteries that work chemically and usually at ordinary temperatures with thermal energy storage using molten sodium at the storage medium and stores energy thermally, not chemically.
I can remember Ford experimenting with an Escort van equipped with such a sodium sulphur battery and thinking then that it was a path to nowhere given that its temperature had to be maintained at such an unfeasibly high temperature.
@@michaelbacon561 Y that tec is still of interest in home micro-grid, where the battery being hot is no disadvantage. Given that we are supply constrained, it helps if snazzy LFP tec can be dedicated to EVs, and these other tecs used elsewhere, hopefully cheaper despite lower RTE and heavier/bulkier.
My first thought was "hey, this is a use for the concentrated brine waste from desalination plants" which woud add to their commercial viability
Same.
brine waste is a misnomer; you get bromine, iodine, magnesium, lithium and what not from the waste!!
Sodium is already so cheap this won't matter to brine waste.
@@texasgawain We spent a good lot of energy to build the plant and separate it out from sea water.
Not only are all the ions and elements valuable, we don't disrupt the salinity balance wherever the brine is discharged into the ocean.
Could be a good solution
Just have to say as an engineer you said everything you can in this video. You deserve an award. This is one of the greatest products of the century if it works as stated.
I've seen a huge, multi pronged movement on batteries using sodium from big, established companies like this and also from various science experiments across the world, and I like where they're going
I just caught this video today, great topic. Sodium ion and lithium ion have very similar theoretical energy densities, even though sodium ion has a 0.3V lower terminal voltage. The problem thus far has been achieving high energy density with sodium ion both at room temperature and with long cycle life. It appears CATL and others have made strides on both of these issues. This would be a huge win because aluminum, carbon, and sodium are all common in Earth’s crust, whereas lithium, cobalt, and nickel are not,
But don't they need things like vanadium. It's a giant step in the right direction and for static uses its definately going to happen. I think CATL are about to launch something but in my world it will be an amalgamation of Sodium Ion and Lit hium ion. We shall have to wait and see.
Worth quoting: "And just as a cherry on top of the happy little CATL cake...". Clearly Dave is a man possessed of eloquence.
Bless you GL :-)
Might be all the sodium but I'm salivating at the thought of more stable microgrid batteries with less concern for environmental impact when things potentially go horribly wrong.
The video is a year old and very interesting to view with the benefit of hindsight. The good news is that it is still mostly correct 😀
The bad news is that it's a bit hard on the negative aspects of Lithium, which is unlikely to go away anytime soon, and global resources are not as limited as some 'analysts' have said, with consequent 60% price drop recently. More recent news is that a hybrid Na-Li battery looks good.
I predict many changes to battery chemistry over the next 2 decades. Let's just welcome each improvement as it comes.
That "...then you're a smarter person than me..." bit was a glimpse of your lovely manner.
95% capacity after 10,000 cycles is awesome. The kicker is, like you mentioned, the volume necessary for all the EV's etc that will be sold in the next few years. With that much market value, the impetus for R&D must be huge. Keep in mind the first EVs had lead-acid batteries, so while weight is a consideration, it's not the elephant that it might seem to be.
Weight is still an elephant and always will be. Not everyone will be serviced by a regular-sized ICE-powered vehicle and that will be the same with their EV replacements we know that the demands on the battery will increase substantially as the vehicle size grows but you just can't keep fitting a bigger battery because you run out of space and you make the vehicle ridiculously heavy which eats into its payload and also adds to the stress on the battery output. For batteries, to power, the larger vehicle we use now a more energy-dense and lighter sort will need to be developed.
I'm a home energy guy and want batteries that do not cost me the price of the battery to recycle them when they finally wear out. I like fast charging capabilities and looking forward to solar charging capabilities info.
Thanks for this great work. It always seemed strange to me that lithium became the main battery product for storage where weight is not an issue. It shows just how important investment and manufacturing momentum can be in sealing in sub-optimum technology (e.g. Betamax vs VHS).
There's a lot to be said for sub optimal I reckon particularly when it's mature if not old tech.
At the moment lead acid batteries are so cheap it is ridiculous. If you size the bank to never drain these type of batteries below 10% of max capacity they could last a dozen years at 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of lithium based tech for considerably more amp hours to boot.
Of course if you need lithium you need lithium, but for home storage do you really need lithium, when lead acid (AGM) at similar life, more amp hrs and 1/4 the cost will do essentially the same thing in many applications?
@@ThePaulv12 Very interesting, thanks for sharing! Doing some quick searching, I was surprised to see that a $200 (retail) car battery has capacity of about 0.7kWh, and I assume it's possible to buy them wholesale if buying a large number of them. Any favorite pointers on resources for people wanting to learn more about lead acid batteries and how to integrate them into an off-grid home? For example, how would I make sure they don't drop below 10% capacity? And what kind of parallel / series systems are recommended for lead acid batteries?
@@ThePaulv12 That lead and lithium are both toxic is one problem that sodium batteries could solve. I've also seen some research on aluminum batteries.
That said, it's hard to beat good ol' lead-acid for value. It's kind of like burning coal for energy.
Thanks Philip. I completely agree
@@dosadoodle Ideally you don't want to use ordinary automotive batteries but rather deep-cycle Pb-acid batteries designed for off-grid use. Alternatively, I have seen people use in the past Pb-acid forklift batteries or second hand cells from comms towers or railway signalling for off-grid storage. Using a decent charger/inverter should let you select the battery type and discharge limits of the batteries. I couldn't tell you any makes atm as it's 25 years ago that I fitted a hybrid solar-diesel Pb-acid storage system at the school I was teaching in rural Zimbabwe. We were the only place with electricity in the valley once the system was up and running. The electronic charger/inverter we used was top of the line back then and very efficient and adaptable. So, today's tech should be at least as good at a fraction of the costs I would hope.
I love your ramblings, you always site your information and present these fascinating tech updates in bite sized digestible chunks.
This was one of the better JHAT vids, but I wanted to comment on "running out" of lithium. It won't happen. A lot of people like to look at the "proven reserves" numbers, then divide that number by annual use and say "we will run out in X years" (sooner if you apply a growth curve). The reality is Earth is BIG(citation needed) - and as demand increases, price increases, which makes more material viable for extraction.
It is perhaps plausible that we would reach a net energy loss of extraction of lithium - ie the energy required to obtain the lithium becomes not worth it other than the convenience of the portable devices.
However, the sodium ion is exciting - we recommend looking it up in Wikipedia, particularly the density chart. This is the first time I've seen something potentially beat lead-acid. Lead-acid gets a bad rep but it is incredibly recyclable (typically 97%+) and cheap. However, sodium-based tech looks to be cheaper AND lighter, which would be great. Lead-acid is of course ridiculously bad for electric cars, but for supplies that don't move around, it is/was practical. This is the first time I've seen a plausible way to usurp lead batteries and have anything close to the cost, availability, and recyclability them.
Great video - with energy demand soaring, and industry already looking for alternative chemistries like the LFP you mentioned, Na-ion batteries have huge potential - especially in stationary storage. It is not just CATL looking either, the UK is home to several pioneers in this noteably Faradion and (my own awesome employer) LiNa Energy.
If anyone can bring it quickly from the lab to massive scale, it is CATL. Sodium ion batteries will be a game changer for stationary storage. This is big news.
That was exactly my idea - stationary storage, where LiFePo is already the king...
@@elephantintheroom5678 Yes and No. We see what happens when we depend on only one source for anything. Bad idea. I will wait until they are available by a local producer. Or a South African, whatever comes first.
@@elephantintheroom5678 Yes, its a three layer solution. Every home with its own grid connection must get a home battery with at least 10kWh per 10kW grid power and be tied into the grid via its inverter. With or without solar/wind/water. That would be 20kWh for my home. Done - for my home.
Second layer is at local transformer level, the connection to the 5th and 6th category grid (homes are the the 7th) thats running with 10kV and 20kV. This one gets a battery together with the transformer of about 10%-20% in Wh of its rated power. Say a 5000kVA transformer gets a 1 MWh Battery with up to the rated range of power.
Third layer is the grid scale storage together with large substations. We have one in our county. At least 100% of the rated range with at lest 20% in Wh in capacity. That one will not be a Li-Ion battery. Maybe Na+, maybe redox flow, maybe compressed air.
Then comes the power generation itself, very large scale pump power stations which are a bit slower to react and large gas power stations powered by our own produced methane and bio-gas during the summer months. Of course our power generation in form of Wind, Water, Solar must exceeded at least 120% of the needed power to be able to generate the overflow in the summer. Currently our country is at 81%. Much work ahead of us!
This is the first show of yours that YT showed me and, being kind of a nerd, I watched it. Great job. I'll have to listen to some of your other shows (later) and if I enjoy them as much as this, I'll subscribe.
I love the detail that you delve into every subject that you make these great informative videos on.
Na-Ion batteries definitely have a future at a very minimum for fixed installations. I have a Power Wall and would have liked to have significantly more capacity so I could eliminate my connection to the grid. Na-Ion batteries may just allow that at a reasonable cost.
Exactly. People often get too obsessed with the next breakthrough that applies to EVs and ignore what you’re talking about. I’d love to install one of these in my home…when I can eventually afford one at least haha.
And 10,000 cycles with na-ion batteries lifepo4 has 3000 to 5000 and ncm have 2000 3000
@@lesstevens2370 10k cycles only applies to the *Cathode*, to note. the Anode is still carbon-based, and has a similar cycle life to Lithium. That will have to be replaced before you see 25-year batteries show up.
Also, in many states, it's illegal to completely disconnect yourself from the grid unless you live in a camper. The power company will still charge you a minimum, or force you to sell your excess power for a fraction of what they'll resell it for. I wager that minimum will go up as more customers with land put solar panels on it. or charge us poor peeps who live in apartments more, hoping we elect people who take it out on y'all.
@@DFX2KX yeah thats lobbying for you hopefully America can sway away from blue or red vote and have more parties but they brainwashed everyone to think it is just a wasted vote if you dont ... on a side note lto batteries are great for storage because they have up to 50,000 cycles if you have space because there wh to volume is shitty
@@lesstevens2370 LTO is a heck of a chemistry for stationary applications, yep. I have seen them used in DIY E-vehicles before because of that cycle-count, where they don't mind the loss in range (or if the battery's going to be in harsh conditions a lot because as I understand it they're pretty resiliant to mistreatment, too).
As for laws and having to remain 'on the grid', that's in some sense intended to prevent squatters, people running their houses off of gas gennys (have done that before) and ensuring that there are enough customers in rural areas to actually sustain an electric infrastructure.
See... Solar panels and micro-turbines are *not* cheap at the consumer scale, and you've got to be fortunate enough to own land or at a minimum the structure the panels are going on. Maintnance cost of a utility is based on area, revenue is based on customers. so as those that can afford it go off grid, the folks who don't have that initial investment get screwed. Similar reasoning to why EVs have a road use tax slapped on their registration every year in some states. And some have considered making E-bike users like myself also pay for it since many of us replaced our cars (I didn't, but it's common). We still need the roads de-iced, we just don't contribute anything to paying for the salt or the wages of the poor sod going out there at 3 AM to plow.
(as for the parties? There's a great CGPGrey video about first-past-the-post which sums up why that is better than I could hope to)
Thanks for the work. I read energy articles online when I have time but of course the push system used bases suggested articles on history and thus limits article scope. Alternate sources like this are a great way of getting better coverage.
Thanks Joe. Glad it was interesting for you.
Just found your channel. You have a gift for imparting knowledge in a very relaxed, conversational manor. Thank you Sir! New sub here.
I really like your presentation style, very pleasant and clear. Compliments from the Netherlands.
Continue the good work 👍
Love your videos!! Very informative, easy to understand and very important topics.
Great vid Dave, as always. Sound environmental arguments for the change to sodium, and of course cheaper. Sounds like a serious challenge to LFP. Lithium seems a likely fizzer now, because of the cost and limited availability.
Haha. Just rewatched this one. Noticed the coffee stain on the periodic table this time… and then saw the “I will not put sodium in Mr Lidgard’s tea” hahah! Nice touch Dave!
Best battery charge/discharge graphic I've seen. Great job!
I've become jaded about new battery tech announcements. But CATL have such credibility in the space that I can't help but get interested. Of course the proof of the pudding is them actually delivering something, but I'd absolutely love to see some Sodium batteries on the market ASaP.
Couldn’t agree more
Stationary storage seems the logical first step here. Once the batteries are proven-out, weight reductions and performance changes for mobile applications are next.
Another great video! Congrats on 400K Subs!
Thank you again for your clear and understandable explanation of complicated subjects. CZcams is a worldwide site that is viewed by many people who don't speak English at home. The way you speak and pronounce is very good to understand.
Not being a chemist i didn't know sodium and lithium were similar. but geez sodium is everywhere. It is even waste in many processes. From waste in processes like ocean desalination to a good resource for rechargeable batteries is world changing.
In the near future, solar-powered desalination stations will be paired with Na-ion battery production facilities. It is possible that hydrogen production and liquefaction facilities will also be located at these seaside water and energy centers.
@@daveriley6310 encouraging!
Terrific information as usual, I cant wait for a real world test comparing these to GMG's aluminum-graphene batteries. Very exciting times to be alive for, although patience is not my strong suite
I'd expect Na-ion to be, oh, about ten times cheaper than aluminum-graphene. Al-graphene probably isn't ten times better, so it's likely game over for them, but maybe I'm wrong about that. We need cheap batteries more than we need fancy batteries.
@@incognitotorpedo42 Yes that's also a very promising technology, check out GMG in Australia, their battery is pretty far out there as well, also a few years off. I can see different uses for each type
Thank you for giving me hope each week. I always look forward to your reports. Be well.
Prussian blue... It got my old, old neurons firing for a moment. It's a nice dark blue color. Machinists apply a thin layer which dries and can then use a pick or other sharp tool to scratch the blue off to indicate where to drill holes or make cuts. It's actually quite the versatile material. It's also used internally to help cure radiation sickness.
KWH/Kg is important for transport but irrelevant for static storage. For that KwHyears/$ might be a better measure.
Great video as ever, keep it up please Matt.
Good old Matthew.
kWh: k small letter, W capital letter because it is named after James Watt, h small letter. Just saying
@@eddymaes9620 Good point. That pesky shift key has a mind of its own. Sorry. kWHyears/$ then.
Completely agree, for static it is just about price.
Btw, what Matthew are you talking about?
No, you still got it wrong.
Sounds great; I hope they can deliver this at scale soon. A good enough battery made out of readily available and presumably cheaper materials is kind of what the world needs right now. I think cost is going to be the driving force here and we need to think beyond automotive. Sure, automotive can use these as they are good enough and this will likely enable vehicles at lower price points to have better ranges. But the real storage need is in our homes and on the grid. There the weight and volume are much less relevant. But the cost is super relevant. This new battery chemistry has the potential to be good enough for both of those segments. Same manufacturing process, which they've already mastered with much cheaper source materials. Sounds like a winning combination. All they need now is tera factories producing these batteries as fast as they can. There's no shortage of demand for this any time soon.
It might end up enabling batteries for the less premium transportation: cheap cars, vans, buses, trucks, etc. as well as storage solutions. The high-end segment might have a need for lighter, higher energy density solutions that enable better performance, range, etc. but also come at a premium price. The rest of the market just needs good enough energy storage at a much lower price point. It's like diesel vs. high octane fuels. Diesel powers (and pollutes) the world. But if you need to go fast, you buy the high octane stuff at a premium.
I agree that cost will be a driving force. Our governments could actually help out a lot in this area by pulling away some subsidies from the oil and gas industry so they they don’t look as (falsely) inexpensive.
@@SaveMoneySavethePlanet You need to look at where the subsidies are... because they are everywhere (not just oil and gas) ... bottom line cost is everything .. only once we get renewables cheap enough for similar performance change will occur. Why do you think India and China and Russia and even the USA are not on board ... the french tried to increase the cost of current fuels and were rejected ... need to keep working on the cost of renewables.
@@alanbartram3147 Putin's Vanity War is inadvertently helping to increase the cost of fossil fuels, so that may accomplish more than removing subsidies.
@@incognitotorpedo42 No that's the west going crazy with sanctions - were lucky that China, India, Turkey and most of the global south are ignoring the US and EU that have decided to effectively sanction themselves - destroying their own economies and waking everyone up to the need to move away from US dollar
@@markjackson7467 : The west is going crazy with the risk to themselves. Russia's recent behavior is the same sort of thing that started the Napoleonic Wars and WW1.
Brilliant as always, keep up the good work. Really helps to keep us up to date.
Energy density is key..!.!.!.!. Thank you for your skills in communicating in proper English language.!.!.!.!.!.
great video. informative, thoughtful, and well-crafted; I enjoy and appreciate your work
Thanks Danny. I really appreciate your feedback :-)
Hi, thank you for the great video (as always). We are seeing some similar moves done by NGK / BASF on sodium-sulfur based chemistry (high temperature sodium-sulfur battery) and a few utility scale systems have been already deployed. Not sure whether it is relevant or whether you covered it before but thought you might be interested. In terms of LCOS they are not bad at all either. Just not sure NGK will be able to scale up fast enough.
Love your videos, keep them coming. Surprised you didn't mention Faradion a UK based Co with more advanced Sodium Ion batteries than CATL. They are based in Sheffield.
Thank you for this, and all your blogs. This one is particularly hopeful.
Thanks Charles. Much appreciated
*Great* to see sodium-ion batteries making such good progress! Good video!
I think the biggest determinant of which chemistry will, in the long run, win, will be the carbon footprint from the extraction of raw materials, the construction of the battery, the disposal of said battery, cost of manufacturing and finally the extra energy used in use (thinking of extra weight for transport applications). It seems like these CATL tech sodium batteries may actually win this end to end carbon impact race. I hope a few more manufacturers get on board with Na and drive the cost down!
great presentation, information and content and no music. Thank you
A pleasure to listen to your non-alarming way of saying what you say.
The problem with Na-based batteries has always been the larger size of the ions, leading to reduced ion mobility. Up to now, this has been solved by operating at 300°C, but if CATL have solved this problem, it could truly be a game-changer. Looking forward to finding out how they perform at sub-zero temps, and if this electrode material can be used to improve Li-ion charging rates.
from what I've heard, they can use a less viscous solvent in their electrolyte formula, which helps a lot with ion mobility and thus beats the sub-zero (if you speak SI) performance of standard Li-Ion (Co/Mn/XXX) and of course Li-PO4 batteries. The hard carbon electrode material also contributes to that.
just my 2cts...
Not to mention its reaction to water and its thermal expansion causing broken conduction.
@@Dana5775 Lithium also reacts to water.
@@Anenome5 All the alkali metals readily react with water to form hydroxides with the release of the hydrogen gas but lithium reacts slowly with water because it has higher activation energy and slower rate of reaction and forms colorless solution of lithium hydroxide along with the release of hydrogen gas. Sodium reacts instantly resulting in a flame due to the exothermic heat. Don't. Kid yourself sodium has far more r edgy density and could provide a multitude of energy storage in comparison to lithium. If manufacturers could get around the sodium problems they would have long ago. Advances in material science and dry chemistry alternatives in assembly are making the potential a possibility.
@@Dana5775 Neither sodium ions nor lithium ions react with water. It's a common mistake to confuse the elemental metal with its ions. But there is no more sodium metal in a sodium ion battery than there is in a glass of salt water. Incidentally, adding sodium metal to water doesn't produce enough heat to ignite the hydrogen gas produced. That does happen with potassium, though.
I look forward to your videos. Thank you for your work and positive presentations. It's great to see businesses pursuing more sustainable products. Na could be a great solution.
Thanks Matthew. I appreciate that :-)
I can't wait to have this technology hit mass market space.
Those of us in Africa with energy challenges are eager for breakthrough like these to energies our economy.
This video is why I stay glue to your channel and look forward to your new releases.
Thanks once again.
Awesome info & presentation there sir! Thank you very much!
This is actually super interesting, I’m doing my senior sem on li ion batteries (haven’t decided specifically what part yet) and this new exploration is really cool. I don’t know if it’s as cool as the organic anodes that increase in capacity as a result of increased charge cycles that they’re making now, or the V2O5 photo cathode that can convert 9% of sunlight into energy that goes straight into a battery (no charging station required, just leave it in your windowsill for 10 mins or so) but this is just another super interesting innovation that I’ll get to live through!
Very interesting.
When I was in grade school my science teacher made a battery out of salt water.
This company has improved that.
Good idea.
Love your channel. Great insights. Keep up good work
Great video Dave.
Everyone always remembers the sodium experiment from high school.
Loving that this research is open to the world. Very much looking forward to seeing what these sodium based batteries can do. We need energy storage breakthroughs.
Agreed. But while we wait for the breakthroughs, we can take a lot of stress off the system by reducing the demand. Sometimes I feel like people concentrate too much on the generation and storage side of the equation while ignoring demand.
It's not open to the world. It's patented. It is public knowledge, though. You just can't sell it.
@@incognitotorpedo42 i'm sure CATL will build a production line for the right $$$
Same as all the other revolutionary new batteries. The idea will be recycled for another youtube video in a few years, otherwise nothing.
@@Withnail1969 These are already in production you dipper - this is China speed - get used to it.
Thanks. Interesting and well presented information. I hope it delivers as promised in few years.
I can imagine perowskite covered cars and trucks with sodium-ion batteries. That would be something!
Thank you for a well reasoned summary. Also, people can learn a bit from your unassuming humility.
Always a pleasure, learning from your team, 👍 thanks
I'm still convinced it's early days for battery tech in a renewable world :)
This is awesome though! I've been following Sodium Ion batteries with great interest. It's worth noting that the energy density is better than the original batteries used in the original Tesla roadster - If I'm not mistaken. At the very least these would be incredible for utility scale storage if they are robust and the price advantage is as pronounced as stated.
Tesla's LFP-powered model 3 only has a combined pack density of 130 wh/kg, and it still goes about 420+ km, has good performance, very high efficiency, and an acceptable curb weight. If these sodium ion batteries are heat and cold tolerant then like Tesla's LFP pack, it won't need as robust cooling systems and will be able to shed a lot of weight and recoup some energy density compared to the normal NCA-chemistry battery packs.
I always hated the use of Lithium, because it is a neuro-toxin and soluble lithium salts will inevitably find their way into the drinking water.
I pray that the sodium ion battery is a great success.
Unless they use antimony or Prussian Blue (as said in the vídeo) which has Cyanide....and it disperses if exposed on fire.
PS you have the best voice on the whole internet keep up the good work
Really interesting as ever and thanks for making this subject almost understandable!
Using much more commonly available materials that I also cheaper is a huge advantage. Also it is still early days for Sodium ion batteries so we can hope for more technological breakthroughs. Exciting times for batterie technology.
I for one would certainly prefer a lower density greener alternative.
Lithium is running into a hard chemistry wall as far as density goes sodium ones probably have a similar limit
Thats waht people have said about micochips for the last 20 years and they are still getting faster. Don’t underestimate human engenuity. even if the chemisty doesn’t impouve any more there are still huge potentials on the pack level.
except for the whole toxic part
@@mariogirod6195 the hard chemistry wall is that every lithium atom can only hold one electron. Then you have to add other elements that don't carry electrons but keep it from breaking and/or exploding.
Can't wait until we see one of these batteries outside of CATL's marketing material.
If they perform as promised, that would be a massive step forward for renewable energy.
Agreed. I’m always cautious to get too excited until I see how something performs in the real world
If renewable energy had performed as promised, their would be no need for batteries at all.
I'm glad you talked about this subject. I hope to hear more on it
I like that you added the coffee element to the periodic table!
If you are a CATL executive, and you have gone to the Chinese "stock exhange" for the capital to build these batteries, you are VERY confident that they are going to work...
This is fantastic news! The only thing I would love to see in the future however is less reliance on cars in general as it is an extremely inefficient way of transportation. I mean one train car can hold 60-100 people, meanwhile at the same size cars can generally only carry around 10 people, requiring a lot more infrastructure and materials for its upkeep... I would love to see a future where long distance travels rely on well built out high-speed rail systems instead, which connects to efficient local transportation options (which could be anything from lend-a-bike systems, trams, busses). Because the compounding costs- and environmental impact of asphalt, rubber as well as self-contained batteries is not really an environmentally efficient solution. Rail systems on the other hand don't necessarily need batteries as they can rely on the grid directly to supply power. (although nothing is hindering them from having local battery storage in case of blackouts).
You might as well go 100% bicycle and sail boats!
As usual some people don’t live in the real world I have to be at work at 6 o’clock in the morning no public transport at that time and if there was the journey would take 1 and a half hours by bus and no trains available it takes about twenty to twenty five mins to get to work in a car or on motorcycle . And I live in a built up city where there is good public transport . The car has been around for over a century now and I don’t think it will ever be replaced by public transport .
@@dukemasters6829 Similar to my situation. As a general rule of thumb, I can assume that travelling by train will take twice as long, and that the ticket will cost me twice what I'd pay for gas. This doesn't take the time into account to plan and schedule the whole trip, or getting to the train station, or reaching the final destination, or switching trains in between. Any of that can be a large, long and expensive trip by itself.
Or running into rush hour and not even fitting through the door because it's so packed. Happened to me more than a few times. Never doing that again.
3:50 That is a wonderful animation. It is the most intuitive explanation of how a battery works that I have ever seen.
Thank you so much for your clarity!!
LFP will be the choice for cheaper cars since the final patent expires next month, sodium can replace NMC in the future though if it can come close to the same energy density.
Batteries are already good enough for regular cars today, so the main concern is making them cheaper and safer. For larger and more demanding vehicles sodium batteries might be the future.
If CATL can carry this through, LFP will get superseded. Thanks for the info Dave, as always, great vid!
You mean ,surpassed?
@@MatteoComensoli superseded, i.e. replaced.
Wow wow wow, great info ; I’m proud to be a Patrean assisting in a small part, in your mission.
I don't know if it's up to the sliced bread level of greatness but. Heck yeah this is great news thanks so much for sharing. Awesome channel
A particularly fascinating episode! This is a very hopeful development, imo. I am sure we will see CATL Sodium ion batteries in production cars in the relative near future - they seem to have the "oomph" necessary to drive this technology forward
Highly doubt it, they’ll be too heavy to use in cars…
@@glowwurm9365 You may well be right. They are heavier but CATL seem to be driving the weight down as well as the energy density up, and they seem to believe they'll be used in cars. As Dave B says, I wouldn't bet against them.
I've been reading the thread started by @Emily_C - "I'm currently doing my PhD on sodium metal batteries ..." and she says it's good for stationary applications. So, if she says it's too heavy, it's too heavy!
Na Ion seems like a good option for the future. Given how similar Na Ion is to Li Ion, I think it has a high probability of finding commercial application sooner rather than later in the electrical storage market. I think multiple battery chemistries will find useful applications in the years ahead.
You missed Bolivia as a Li supplier. It does not produce a lot of Li now, but it has one of the largest deposits. Also, regarding recycling, this will not make a significant contribution until the material being recycled is a significant volume in relation to production. As BEVs are only about 5% of the market now, and should typically last more than 10 years, we are going to need 'virgin' battery material for most batteries over the next 15 years.
Bolivia has had as many coup d'etats as there are years. So no business wants to deal with an unstable government.
As for recycling, as much as 30% of the new cells fail to meet standards and have to be rejected so there is already a full recycling pipeline going on. VW has already recycling lithium cells.
You failed to understand that CATL is already developing the production of Na Ion cells. They announced that last year.
@@acmefixer1 No one wants to deal with an unstable government, except China. They were buying up mineral rights 15 years ago as they have been everywhere else.
Over the next two years there are forecast to be more BEVs made than all years previous. Almost none of those early batteries are likely to be recycled yet. There are over a billion ICE cars on the road today. To replace those will require a billion BEVs. Regardless of how much material is recycled, you still need to mine material for one billion batteries.
Na ion may be able to do some of those (maybe a lot depending on technology development).
Huzzah, you do us such good with your postings. One collateral benefit is negating the notion that the Chinese are copiers rather than innovators.
Wow first of your videos I ever watched!Sodium Ion really interests me as a very early EV adopter (8yrs ago) and being in the solar power industry I’m worried about the cobalt and lithium environmental and people issues. The weight issues in EVs will even itself out as I’m now buying cars with smaller batteries as charging is becoming more available and should continue to. Great video😉
This is one of the more promising breakthroughs on the battery front that I've seen in several years. The CATL first generation sodium-ion batteries are not a killer technology quite yet, but they are a very, very good basis for further improvements:
160 Wh/Kg - a good first-generation number, but not a game changer yet
80% charge in 15 minutes
good low temperature performance
good stability
no thermal runaway (apparently)
decent C rate efficiency - I couldn't find any actual spec on this
Costs around $77/kWh (this is very low), similar to LFP batteries
'high' cycle endurance - I couldn't find an actual spec on this. Probably similar to LFP
At the same time, lets not forget about LFP (LiFePO4). Tesla's LFPs for the model 3 clock in at 200 Wh/kg and their lithium-ion's clock in at 260 Wh/kg. Theoretically, the LFP chemistry also have several years of improvements ahead of it that could take that well past 300 Wh/kg.
So it might end up being a race with one guaranteed winner - We the consumer!
-Matt
What is LFP cost/kWH?
@@jeffrbake For whom? Tesla? VW? Ford? It's a moving target.
Current Tesla lithium-ion packs are around $130/kWh. Tesla LFP packs will probably be closer to $100/kWh once volume production really gets going.
Since LFP is cheaper to produce than other chemistries, it certainly won't be higher than NMC or NCA chemistries.
In a few years we are probably looking at $70/kWh.
(Energy densities are also a moving target. LFP chemistries seem to be improving at around 20wH/Kg/year and are somewhere in the 170-200Wh/Kg at the moment. But several companies in China appear to already be mass-producing LFP batteries in the 230Wh/Kg range and expect that to be 260Wh/Kg within 1-2 years. For the raw cell. Subtract about, oh, 10% for the in-pack equivalent.
-Matt
@@junkerzn7312 awesome thanks for the info. So really as soon as this alterative battery type can improve energy density then it will be an obvious choice. And if it's cost is already under $80/kWH, I just imagine how much cheaper it can get.
@@jeffrbake Right now 200 "real" highway miles is the norm (ignoring luxury vehicles with super huge battery packs). The combination of dropping pack costs and rising densities should give us 300 highway miles in maybe 3 years. Just with nominal advances in the technology that are already easily attainable. I'm using class and whole-year (both sesaons) averages here.
If we throw in a real game-changer, such as a solid electrolyte, or some nano-patterning, or something else that radically increases energy density, we might see 400 miles for a mainstream BEV in 5 years. Personally I think it might take a little longer to get to 400 miles in a full-sized mainstream non-luxury BEV. (Yes, I'm well aware there are a few BEVs that can do it now, but that's only by super-sizing the battery pack and adding too much weight to the vehicle).
I would argue that, combined with BEVs crossing over and becoming cheaper than ICE vehicles in around the same time frame (there is already significant overlap), this represents a complete 'game over' scenario for gasoline.
And so far the only car company that seems to realize it is Tesla. Even VW thinks that only 50% of their own production will realistically be EVs in 2030. Other volume car makers are in even worse shape. If this winds up being the case, Tesla will be able to double production for several years and still sell every vehicle they make. But I do hope other vehicle makers get more real, because no new ICE car will be able to make a profit for its maker in 2030. Hell, I think the profits for gasoline offerings will banish by 2026. Never mind 2030!
-Matt
Fantastic content, I'd love to know if CATL is looking towards all the off grid properties around the world for energy storage solutions
CATL is in the business of making batteries. They're not in the business of "off grid properties." Tesla is in the business of battery storage solutions.
@Acme Fixer it would be ideal if a company like that would consider the concept
@@steveb5431 Of course they are considering stationary storage. It's a huge market. They aren't morons.
@@acmefixer1 CATL is part of China's leading renewable energy targets - remember they have built 52% of all renewable energy generation on the planet - more than the rest of the world combined. They build whole systems and far larger than Tesla.
very inspiring tech announcements, and video, thank you, subscribed
Wonderful presentation of a fascinating topic. Easy to listen to & understand. Thank you!
This sounds like great news, will be interesting to see how it turns out but sounds promising as they can manufacture them similar to what they are already doing.
Also from what i have read they have a high number of charge cycles so should last quite a bit longer than lithium ion batteries.
LFP have a high cycle life. That's their competition. It sounds like CATL is close to matching or beating LFP.
Super video - thanks Dave et al. Innovations such as sodium-based batteries are promising, but the revolution will come (I hope) when people start really understanding that they just need to use less energy. Of course some people are really suffering right now because of high prices, but let's hope it kicks others into cutting down on waste.
Agreed. And the truth is, the ones who are suffering due to the high prices are typically also the ones who use much less energy overall.
Regardless, I hope our nations come out of the current energy crisis with much lower usage kind of how the generation that lived through the depression in the US was very frugal even later in life.
@@MarkA-Dam_Engineer If you know a way of extracting all this available energy that doesn't cause damage, I bet many people, including this channel, would love to know about it. Otherwise the question is: how much energy can an average person use, with the energy generation methods we have now, without the damage being unsustainable? My view: much less than today. Of course the issue of how to share resources fairly is hard, but that's why we pay politicians.
Love these videos. Thank you. But could you turn on the automatic closed captions for your videos in the future please?
I had a science teacher in 1981 that tossed sodium chunks into water. LOL I miss the 80's.
Thank you for yet another quality video! Sodium ion batteries are enormously attractive for all the reasons you mentioned. Let's hope they can spread their production under license around the planet. It looks like a much more viable solution to batteries than solid state.
Really you don’t realize how long solid state batteries have been around! Granted they are for tiny applications but those tiny applications now are growing exponentially!
Cheers bibliotek42 :-)
There's a good bit more lithium in the Earth's crust than stated here. California and Nevada likely have enough lithium for the entire US's needs. And we really haven't started to look too hard for it elsewhere (Africa, Siberia, middle east).
The issue isn't the actual total amount in the earth's crust, it is the limited areas where it is concentrated enough to be commercially viable to extract it. There is gold in seawater but you don't see anyone processing seawater to extract gold on a commercial scale.
💯
DLE tech will make lithium environmentally neutral to extract and cheaper but the issue is DLE isn't coming online until 2025 to start and won't be producing most of the lithium until we'll past 2030. Lithium is still going to be the preferred material in the future as its densities will always be higher then sodium.
Just like to say thank you for what you do.
Thank you so much, I always find your programs enjoyable and informative. Great way to start a Sunday morning.
Cheers Robert. Much appreciated :-)
Another great video Dave, Sodium Ion batteries certainly look like they have a good future and will reduce the impact of Lithium extraction on the planet.
Thanks Hugh. Much appreciated :-)
The one thing we can depend upon is the opposition of environmentalists to the production of any and all raw materials to make their renewable power/electric vehicles, and their opposition to building the factories to produce them.
Despite all that opposition, they DEMAND those things years ago and can't wait to get the things they oppose being mined, drilled and produced.
SUCH hypocrites.
It may also finally bring electric vehicle to the masses with more affordable price.
Not a day goes by that I don’t see a doom post about our Li usage or a post about some new battery breakthrough in a lab.
This is one of the few that actually sounds like it will come to fruition though. I especially like how they’re not promising crazy numbers and are doing small iterations in order to improve it.
Any chance we can get the needed sodium from the byproduct of water desalination?
I was thinking the same.
Seawater has about 0.2 ppm lithium and about 35,000 ppm of sodium.
There is no shortage of sodium metal. You get it by electrolysis of liquid sodium chloride (common salt).
#moltensaltreactor
#heatofvaporization
@@janami-dharmam yea sodium is super abundant. I’ve just been thinking a lot about desalination lately since it looks like we’ll definitely have to bring it online for our water needs.
The issue with that, is the by product that it produces which could very quickly lead to our next environmental crisis. So I’m constantly looking for a way to us to use the brine for something useful rather than just dump it back in the ocean.
Regarding the question on water desalination: I was wondering the same thing
Why have I never seen this guy's channel before?! Excellent video
The r&d is years ahead normally, but the trend instead is becoming months between changes in approach. What has become of the molecular battery discussed about 4 years ago.
It was said to hold 2000 times capacity of the lipo and charge 1000 times faster. (Which equates to a long charge time but huge discharge potential end-user devices).
Love hearing your informed and sensible presentations too 🙌😎