Is the Lithium-ion crown slipping?
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- čas přidán 25. 05. 2024
- Can lithium-ion technology ever lose it's crown as the undisputed king of battery energy storage? Well, if it is to happen, it could be one of these contenders that takes the title.
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Long time viewers have learned to gauge the importance of a technology by the height of your eyebrow rise, Dave.
I always though it was the sarcasm.
OH, these's only for the other end of the scale - the low end.
"A group of proper grown ups" . They seem to be in short supply these days. Love your channel
scientists are in short supplies?
or new discoveries by them?
Apparently a "proper grown up" can't produce a pumped hydro storage power vrs battery power graph either... GW doesn't matter. GWh does.
What a brilliant blog. This is what the Internet was invented for. Information, help, understanding.
Cheers Malcolm. Much appreciated :-)
Your idea of brilliant is underwhelming.
The internet was made for the military. Later being adapted to others.
"Delusional hopium" excellent phrase I will find very useful 😂
nice delivery of complex subject matter + streamlined compelling graphics= double WIN here!
Apparently a "proper grown up" can't produce a pumped hydro storage power vrs battery power graph either... GW doesn't matter(no one cares). GWh does matter and here pumped hydro storage has TWh of storage. If this is a "win"... > hate to think what you call a loss.
Thank you for presenting a balanced view of the development of electrification in all its iterations. Keep onward...
The graph of how the different chemistries stack up is helpful!
Lovely to hear you speak at the Everything electric show at Harrogate this morning Dave! Even my 13 year old that I dragged along found it interesting - well done!
Praise indeed if a teenager wasn't bored!! Thanks for your support. Much appreciated :-)
Nice to see the man behind the CZcams lens, in person at Everything electric north last friday. Great debates and input from the panellists.
Cheers Andy. Thanks for coming along and supporting the event. Much appreciated.
You've got to love the folks at Fraunhofer - they know so much and present it so well, whatever the subject matter. (I visited them at Erlangen a couple of times around 20 years ago.)
Thanks Dave for another useful review for those of us too lazy to reseach for ourselves 😁👍
Love the factual way you present the data, taking into account all the variables.
Would be interesting to see a 3d chart of maturity, energy density, potential cost (considering price of materials and assembly), safety and possibly a vector on development speed for comparison.
Not sure I could handle an additional d
Decades ago I read about sodium-sulfur batteries. I don't remember the details, but I do remember that they had a high operating temperature, hot enough to melt both the sodium and the sulfur. The upside was that when those batteries cooled down, they had zero self-discharge because everything in there was solid.
Presumably there's still the losses of heating the things up again before being able to discharge them
They are being installed in Japan.
Supposedly BYD maker from China is using the sodium ion batteries in their ev's. Good to know those vehicles won't be catching fire anytime soon ?
I remember Ford experimenting with those in an Escort van. Don't know why they bothered because it was obvious the crazily high temperatures required were going to scupper the whole thing.
@rscott2247 At least something will help keep them from bursting into flames.. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
I am disappointed that iron-air batteries were not included in the study. They are much higher on the TRL scale than the two metal-air battery types considered and may soon be a highly cost-effective solution to long-duration storage (100 hours). In fact, Form Energy is building an iron-air battery factory in the US now with contracts to install storage sites in 2025.
Highly informative video as always!
I agree that for stationary storage, iron-air looks like a good idea. The technology seems to be safe enough that it could be widely distributed so that the grid only needs to supply the average power consumption rather than the peak.
You're right Tom. I've done a previous video on Form Energy, and I probably should have mentioned them, even though iron-air does not feature in the Fraunhofer report. I also could have mentioned Lyten's Lithium-Sulphur chemistry, and Redflow's Bromine redox flow battery. All part of my own 'video production' learning curve I guess!
@@JustHaveaThink Just to be clear, I was not disappointed in your video but the study which choose not to look at iron-air. In the meantime, thanks for the two new battery chemistries to follow up on!
This episode is what I have been waiting for. Thank you!
I was at all 3 days of EE North. I attended a lot of your panels and thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a great weekend, thank you.
I guess for all stationary batteries sodium will be the future.
Certainly they'll take over from lithium for stationary storage in the NEAR future, but some of these others might prove even cheaper in time. Either way, though, very cheap stationary storage will transform the economics of fully renewable grids to make them a no-brainer for most countries - something that would be true even if global warming wasn't happening.
I don't think there will be one winner. One might work best for daily charging and discharging (solar) and others for discharging only on a weekly, monthly or yearly basis.
Great video, Dave, thanks for the battery updates!
Imagine ... aluminum siding batteries/super capacitors for all kinds of buildings.
Imagine solid state batteries built into the driveway and/or the concrete slab the building is built on.
Imagine solid state batteries used in privacy fences for homes and businesses and sound barrier fences alongside highways and interstates.
Imagine wind turbines built to look like chimneys and smoke stacks so they don't stick out like sore thumbs.
Imagine solar panels on every building and home.
Imagine China Not Burning all that Coal to make the Energy for making all of the above 🤣😂
@@ianmciver7719 found another person who can't understand the difference between fossil fuel it takes to make something versus the many times more fossil fuel displaced during its years of operation. You should apply the name of this channel before typing.
@1MarkKeller, techno-optimism in the absence of products you can actually buy is just a plea for more R&D.
@@ianmciver7719 - Imagine a world without racist bigots!
@@ianmciver7719 China is the world biggest manufacturer of solar panels and wind turbines that deploys more of them than the rest of the world combined. They are also the worlds factory, making half the world's steel and cement for example. Their per capita annual emissions are on par with Europe's and their total emissions over the course oh history are less than that of the west since they only really started using a lot of energy in the last 20 years or so while the west did that during the whole 20th century.
Imagine not being delusional
The Germans made no mention of batteries developed in MIT under Prof Donald Sadoway
Two are in utility scale trials :
See “Ambri” high temperature and “Form” iron rust and de-rust batteries
Yes Form is great has funding to build at commercial scale. Unfortunately I believe Ambri has failed to secure funding to build out their commercial sized facility
Ambri went bust this last week
Form are reasonable bet though and have recently landed sone large projects and DoE funding
Yes, I've been waiting for a video like this for a while, there are so many different competing battery options that it's hard to tell which is best.
Cheers Dave. I have followed your channel right from the start. You are always informative and well researched. Your use of language is like a breath of fresh air...
Thank you. I really appreciate that!
Great reporting. Dave, my take is that an immediate need is affordable home storage batteries. Affordable ($10,00), 50 kWh home batteries would allow most homeowners to cut the bindings of the corrupt electric cartels and go off grid. And, home energy independence would be the gateway drug for the switch to electric home heating and cooling, electric cars, etc.
Great! Until the electric cartel becomes the battery cartel. What's the difference in paying 100 per month for electric, versus paying 10,000 for a battery every 10 years? We've been through all this before, the electricity companies simply happen to be the current monopliser of the day. As soon as we switch to an alternative, the "free market" circles around and monoplises the next technology and our human needs are then sold back to us by a different company (often with the same shareholders). The market will serve us an illusion of choice, hiding the real piture of a handful of companies owning all the tech, materials etc. It occurs in every single area of human need, whether it's our shelter, energy, food, water or whatever, it's either a company or a state monopoly. There is no independence from this system, without completely shunning it in all its material glory (a wood stove in a tiny house or such like).
Mass abandonment of the grid would be catastrophic especially as those least able to abandon it would be those least able to maintain the grid. But hey, who cares about them, you got yours right?
@@jb76489 community-based grids to address this inequality is the answer to a fairer electrical grid system.
Off grid is not a place to be given the intermittency of renewables and the need for electricity for heat pump heating during winter months. You need the grid to be trading power from your neighbouring countries or states on your behalf.
Nice one Dave. Thanks. It's good to see where these technologies lie on the road to production
13:49 looove this graphic. Can’t wait for the solid state roundup
Great to see and hear you and the panel on Friday in Harrogate. We enjoyed the whole show - well worth the whole 2.5 miles we had to drive to get there 🙂
Fascinating as usual Dave, love your work! I very much enjoyed your talks in Harrogate yesterday, I would have expressed my appreciation personally, but you were quite busy. Please keep up the good work. 🙂
Thanks Pedro. Sorry I missed you, but thank you for coming along and showing your support. I really appreciate it -)
Thank you for the new video! It's a nice summary and discussion of the different battery technologies. If I was a first time viewer I'd find this incredibly helpful as a way to understand the current state of the field. As a long time viewer though, it's not surprising to see lithium-ion, sodium-ion and redox flow batteries at the top of the TRL ladder. That's pretty much the impression I got from watching your earlier videos.
Thank you for the update and comnentary.
Thank you for your amazing work. I love this channel!
Glad you enjoy it!
Dear Dave, as always....thank you for exist!
Great video as usual 👌
You said no video next week and a few seconds later wait “I will see you next week” I totally understand though. Nicely researched video
Yeah. Force of habit. Sorry about that ;-)
This is a great summary. Thank you.
Incredible breakdown explaining the differences. Thank you. Your channel and "Now You Know" are the only two channel I never skip with or without reading the title. In other words, I don't need to know what your videos are about before I'm willing to tune in. Of course I've only subscribed to two channels (kidding)... actually it's closer to a dozen.
An excellent review and summary.
Nice sober assessment here, thanks
Dave is tops on my list for informative videos! Keep 'em comin'! 🎉😊
Awesome! Thank you!
Absolutely love your content. Would be fantastic if some of our public officials could spend some time taking it in and acting on it
Thank you!
Thank you M
Thanks for the video
Nice to have a sane, unbiased view on this topic from someone who actuality knows what hes talking about. Like many, I'm quite fed up with the hysterical misinformation and panic you hear certainly in the UK media.
Great topic!!
Magnesium fire… a nightmare for firefighters
Very informative indeed!
If you look at all the fires caused by lithium ion batteries it amazes me that they were ever allowed to be used.
good video. thx!
Cheers Patrick
Great summary and great to see you in Harrogate at the weekend
What is shown in the chart at 0:15 is inconsistent with what was verbally said. The chart shows POWER in GIGAWATTS, while what is verbally stated is ENERGY STORAGE (where the units would typically be GIGAWATT-HOURS
Good Work friend !
Thank you! Cheers!
Excellent summary thanks. Will have to check out Redux
Thanks for another informative video.
Idea: Every video you make should display a TRL ladder showing what stage of development the current subject(s) are at
Thanks
Thanks for your support Alan. Much appreciated.
The number of adds for home battery systems have increased. The day will come when there will be more stored electrical potential on the consumer side than with major power producers. Great presentation...
Yes indeed! I think all of the growing micro grid enhancements are being ignored when the naysayers are fear-mongering about how our grid can't handle electrifying the transportation infrastructure.
@@GTN3
There is a lot of talk about power grid system inertia, which is the ability to maintain a steady grid frequency. At this time that inertia comes in the form of the mechanical spinning of turbines. It sounds to me like a justification for the existence big power plants. Maybe so, but with a distributed network of batteries maybe less grid inertia could be possible. Also,, from what I have seen, about half of the electricity produced by a centralized system is overhead. Distributed generation would be able to handle the new transportation infrastructure needs.
@@chrisconklin2981 "the U.S. Energy Informatjon Administration estimates that annual electricity transmission and distribution losses averaged about 5% of the electricity transmitted and distributed in the United States in 2018 through 2022", so I don't know what you think you saw. You may be confusing the low "overhead" of efficient electricity with the fact that before it becomes electricity, more than half the primary energy in fossil fuels is wasted as heat.
@@skierpage Yes I am talking in general terms. Ultimately we are talking about two different power systems. The present old model is a system of large central power stations that are interconnected. As electricity is an instantaneously generated commodity, load balancing is critical. To accomplish this, standby generating capacity is unused overhead.
As a paridimial shift to a new model, batteries will be important because they are "time buffers". In a distributed generation system instantaneous frequency modulation can be pushed down to the use level. No longer will centralized power grids be required to balance load frequencies or provide backup. It is not yet proven that a distributed system can supply long term needs. So it remains an issue. To be fair unused battery capacity could be considered overhead.
@@skierpage Actually, Just Have A Think had a good presentation on this three years ago. The title is: "How energy storage will kill fossil fuel". Also look at Virtual Power Plants (VPP).
I'd love to share this list! Great! Very informative and gives a good sense of the state of the industry!
thanks
I always look forward to another episode of just have a think. It's a little frustrating waiting for new information from Drexel University regarding monoclinic gamma phase sulfur. It generated a lot of excitement two years ago but no one seems to have any additional information since then. It would be nice to know what is going on with that project. Thank you for your good work.
The company zeta energy is exploitin the discovery of passivation of solysulphide via abslrbption in carbon nanotubes to produce an effective battery which is a little below the radar. Another company is exploits 2d wafets, Theion battery company, the thin layer has the suphur in a highly beneficial phase that allows for maximum electrocal conduction that maximizes structural phase integrity when as a surface coating for compatible electrode materials and is predicted to enable 1000wh/kg energy density, they a planning to produce the electeode materialsnfor any battery prototype developer that incorporates their science nnovation
Just have a think of how many things it has taken to get us to this point of the planet being in great trouble , it will take at least that many things to get us out of it
What is the lifecycle of the batteries, the fire suppression system and maintenance vs. hydro? What is the TOTAL 50 year cost of a battery backup system.
Somewhat I think, what happened for solar, in terms of price drops, will happen for batteries (this decade). There was a time people talked about thin film CIGS as the solution to cheap solar. Remember that? But it turns out, good ole silicon still turned out to be the dominant technology. Maybe due to scale of manufacturing. Accumulated experience.
Similarly, I think the same will happen for good ole lithium. (Maybe sodium has a chance also.). The demonstration (at scale), would come from the likes of BYD and CATL. This is with manufacturing issues solved, and deployment at scale. Lithium will still be, by far, the mainstream. Better ways of mining, refining, and recycling will be developed. We'll get better at dealing with lithium, and scaling up.
The alternative chemistries may have a chance. They may have a niche for specialized use cases, such as high energy density, e.g. eVTOL's. Or long duration storage (e.g. iron air batteries).
Good to meet you on Sunday, Dave!
I'm absolutely hoping for the battery prices to crash tbh at the very least
I was sorry to see the Redox Flow battery reduced to a footnote at the end of the report and whilst I applaud the progess made with Vanadium RFB, the headline element is extremely toxic in extraction and disposal whilst other very advanced research and development which has been featured here has eliminated these risks. As someone with an eye on the domestic scale battery market for home applications, a future market with enormous potential as the Australian industry already shows, the focus on potential transportation appliications here seems rather myopic..
I probably should have included Redflow (from Australia) in the Redox section - they use Bromine and get twice the power.
A few km below ground is enough geothermal energy to power the entire Earth for the next two million years, by which time solid state batteries will be only five years away from commercialization.
They skipped iron-air batteries, which are much higher on the TRL ladder, since there is already a company producing them (Form).
That's true, they did. I should have added Form Energy.
Oh, bang on please!
Argonne has published its Li-Air battery specs at 1000 Wh/kg and 1000 cycles some 17 months ago. Their polymeric ceramic electrolyte makes this possible and battery Co's risk suicide if they ignore these specs.
Enjoyed your talks in Harrogate mate. ⚡️⚡️👍
Cheers Dave. Thanks for coming along and supporting. Much appreciated :-)
Nice to meet you at Harrogate Great debates.
Brilliant video.
Can I ask if a similar independent analysis and review and comparison has been done for VAWTs and standard Retail or Home Wins Turbines ?
That might be one for Rosie Barnes over at Engineering with Rosie www.youtube.com/@EngineeringwithRosie
"Begleitmaßnahme zu Batteriematerialien für zukünftige elektromobile und stationäre Anwendungen."
Rolls right off the tongue. If you read it quickly you feel like a rapper.
Great video for anyone who's to lazy to read the reports like me. Thanks!
Now I got an idea for an angry punk song
_"Keep you copium! I need the real stuff. I need some hopium..."_
Humanity is the only thing "that can drag itself out of its existential predicament." But if we look around ourselves, does that seem likely?
Would think that would depend on how far you would have to look to find "grown ups".
Assuming you are still looking - for enough to make a difference
@@weldonyoung1013 That would depend on your definition of grown ups. We all have different standards, and circumstances/biases.
Hi, I have a question. At 3:50 you showed some numbers for the projected performance of MIB. I wasn't able to find this number in the study you linked. I was only able to find > 300 Wh/kg, > 400 Wh/l < 40 €/kWh for MIB's mid/long term performance projections.
Great video as always, what about the liquid metal battery?
If ever there was a case for a funny out-takes/bloopers section at the end of one of your videos it would be watching you trying to pronounce the full German for BEMA II
Ha! I didn't even attempt it. I know my limits!! LOL
I hope I live to see a battery evolution or advancement
It's great to see so many options popping up when it comes to battery tech, and I don't think it will be a matter of the best that will win out but more about the tech that's good enough and can be manufactured cheaply enough and on mass, especially depending on use case.
For home or grid energy storage, size and weight isn't as important, whereas price and how much energy can be stored is, whereas for portable tech devices or EV cars, weight and density is important, you want more energy in a smaller, lighter and more compact package.
So honestly, I think we'll end up with many solutions when it comes to energy storage which the key driving force will be how easy it is to manufacture and how cheap it is to buy that will likely win out, in other words, not the best tech if it cost an arm and a leg.
Still, we've been waiting for this holy grail of battery tech for so long that I wonder how much longer do we have to wait, but on the plus side, thanks to renewable energy and EV cars, there are a lot of ideas being experimented on when it comes to energy storage, as well as resources thrown at it, so it's only a matter of time and will probably happen much sooner because of the big push to renewables and EV cars taking off.
I believe you may have missed the most important consideration - safety!
That will vary depending on whether the battery is used for large scale stationary service or being mobile in any type of vehilce (perhaps with the exceprion of aircraft or ships).
The best thing about the number of potential battery technologies being explored is that a few will probably work out!
Thanks for doing the follow-up. It sure is nice to have a single point of contact for collections of current __ wisdom on emerging technologies to use in discussions with Our Cranky Uncle.
Looking forward to SS battery report coverage!
Thanks Dave. You mentioned Zinc/Air batteries. Non-rechargeable Zinc/Air batteries were being produced mainly for military applications when I was a child. And I'm older than you. They were activated by removing a seal, which initiated the reaction. The battery could not be stored for very long once activated.
Sure, but it is making them rechargeable that has always been the big challenge.
Thank You✨
Battery technology is one of my fav sectors of tech. One day we will have multi day batteries hopefully
This was an interesting video! You don't hear the downsides of Li-S batteries much in press releases and updates by companies like Lyten
As exciting as this is Ive learned that 99.999% of battery breakthroughs do not leave the prototype stage. So far the biggest actual novel tech ive seen is sodium ion batteries and even still they are so new that we are still to see if they actually offer an advantage over lithium batteries mainly LiFePO chemistry.
I am not sure this is useful but: A 50:50 mixture of Sodium and Potassium makes a metal that is liquid at room temperature and is also super reactive. Both metals can be produced fairly easily with electrical power serving to reduce them. NaK, I think contains a lot of energy per kg
For Stationary Grid scale storage,
Sodium ion battery is the best option.
Would have liked them to include the vanadium molten metal battery and the iron- air battery. You made videos about both.
Something I'd like to see is a collection of simple, inexpensive solutions for the rural residence that may stor summer heat for winter use in something like a Sand Battery, perhaps geo heat pumps to moderate temps through the year, (This may even be passive, ads that was a solution for Earthships. And then for power (electricity) something that can provide 50-100 amp service for lights and a few appliances as the load, and a capacity of about 4-10 days of electricity for either bad storm or utility outages that take a while to restore. That sounds like a power wall, but I'd kind of like the power solution to be something that's not a Lithium based solution.
The EV based solutions have there place, but I keep thinking that there is(somewhere) a solution that doesn't cost as much for a are earth metal, and perhaps doesn't require setting up a lifetime service and support contract with some third party.
Lithium's problems were summed up for me by my scooter battery being at "zero" when it's at 32v out of 41.7v.
Invinity are doing great things with Vanadium flow batteries. As said here, they are for stationary storage.
has there been any developments on the seawater battery / desalination plant concept?
All hail the algorithm
There is no existential predicament.
Love it!
Does anyone know stuff we can do, preferably using money, to help with climate change?
Can we agree to just keep it simple and say "Zukünftigeelectromobileundstationäreanwendungensbatteriematerialiensbegleitungsmaßnahme"?
Close enough! LOL
The ladder is great, someone had a think
There's a phone brand that used to be owned by Huawei that uses cool battery tech in their phones. They make a few phones with a Silicon ion battery, along with Calcium ion batteries. It's cool because they're more energy dense and smaller than regular lithium ion batteries.
*_"Honor was founded in 2013 as a Huawei sub-brand._* Honor's line of smartphones allowed Huawei to compete with mid-range online smartphone brands in China and globally. Honor primarily sells products online, but some Honor products are also available at stores in selected markets."