Does Full Metal Jacket Ammo REALLY Over-Penetrate? (and Hit Innocent Bystanders) Ballistic Test
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- čas přidán 10. 05. 2021
- I hear it said a lot that full metal jacket ammunition (FMJ, TMJ, Ball) will over-penetrate the intended target (bad-guy, criminal etc) when a firearm is used in self defense against them. I also know that the FBI and IWBA have set standards that around 18" of ballistics gel is the maximum you want to penetrate to insure your ammo does not over-penetrate. Well what if it does? That's my test today, trying to make bullets go through equivalent to 18" of 10% ballistics gel and then get a chronograph read on the other side, while using .380 ACP, .38 Special and 9mm from concealed carry sized guns. I also have made an "innocent bystander" made of ballistics gel and MDF (bone) to see if FMJ ammo does indeed have enough power after exiting a person, to kill an innocent bystander. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/search?q=gun+sam
- Sport
I shot several of these 9mm FMJ's into gel. I was amazed! czcams.com/video/SK7nDMxF3Y8/video.html
A relative who's been a cop for years said that 9mm bullet wounds are more damaging than .40s&w or .45acp & that they almost always pass through bodies. I was surprised to hear that.
Your excitement at the data being contradictory to your hypothesis really shows your scientific spirit.
That's what people like. Hell I find myself watching videos of people talking about WWE even though I don't care for it, because they love it so much.
Would love to see you further develop/refine this sort of testing methodology. Its unique and potentially 'very' informative going forward.
I think .38 spl or .44 spl wadcutter would do very well in that test. We can treat them like FMJs because the only reason you wouldn't want to use JHP for home defense are stupid laws. While JHPs are sometimes banned, wadcutter rarely, rarely are! Soft lead should deform and not over penetration. Hardcasts aside.
I disagree that laws are the only reason to use WCs. They are also a perfect choice if you want consistent penetration and terminal performance with out heavy muzzle blast and recoil.
I guess .38 wc will still overpenetrate but with much less energy.
Yeah thats what the old timers used and it worked. I have a old s&w 38 short and the old lead bullets mushroom just like hollow points.
If that "innocent" by stander is 4 inches behind the badguy, (innocent of what?) he's probably a accomplice! So...🍻.nice video!😉
38spl is underrated
My night stand gun is a 4 inch Smith m10 with Buffalo Bore +p 158 lswhp
A lot of bad guys have fallen to a 38 spl
I've always heard that the FBI went to 357 mag to better stop cars, not because 38spc was failing against 2 legged predators.
@@lestergillis8171 I'm talking about 1930s when they were chasing down the famous motor bandits, Bonnie & Clyde, Dillinger ect...
Dam right it is
.38 special is such an underrated cartridge.
This has quickly become my favorite gun channel. You continue to come up with content that I don’t see on other channels.
mine too ❤
Sam! You have gone over he top with this one...this is some of your finest work & you hit it out of the ball park with your creativeness here.
I can't express adequately how much I appreciate your channel...someone who is willing to put so much work into these tests. It is a rarity these days as there are too many channels out here doing half-ass testing and calling their data good.
You get a hearty 'ATTA-BOY' for this work Sam!
charlie
Thanks a lot. And, what I do is really because I want to know, and no one is doing it. So why not do it for myself is what I say.
This is good info for those of us (like myself) who are getting low on jhps! I like the new intro music!
Yeah. Good timing for this type of test.
Another great test! I am surprised at the 380 performance... As always it shows why the 38 special has gained so much fame over the years. Great video!
Thanks!
I wanted to thank my Patreon Dan for donating this Winchester USA 9mm JHP ammo. Also, what caliber (other than .44 Mag) do you think won this one?
i think that most people now are bigger then a hundred years ago and i think ball ammo will work and smaller mouse gun calibers its non issue and the fact is to a point ammo is ammo but the fact is ammo choice is everything great video
Not sure which one won but I'd say the innocent bystander was the loser of the bunch lol.
maybe the 38 went all the way thru because it was just a heavier bullet
Well done Dan! Nice one and very helpful contribution to this really good test.
@@sosuapimp8449 that’s gotta be the reason why .
Great test , that's outside the box thinking !
Paul Harrell would be pleased that you used plain old generic hollow points ! lol
Yeah he's all about the Remington and Winchester UMC/USA
9mm FMJ typically has a long tapered rounded nose, while the 38 SPL typically has a nose of less taper. [In mathematical terms the 9mm has a "secant taper" while the 38 has a "tangential taper"]. The bullets will usually wobble a bit on impact with the gelatin; the 9mm secant taper longer nose will act as a rudder almost to destabilize the bullet into tumbling; also the 9mm center of gravity is more toward the base, due to the secant taper nose, so that rear-shifted CG also helps the bullet to destabilize quickly. An acquaintance loaded some 320 gr hard cast 44 Magnum to about 1300 fps from his 5.5" Redhawk and took it hog hunting. He was very surprised when a 300+ pound hog, very irritated at getting shot, chased him up a tree after getting a solid hit from his "powerful" 44 Mag hand-load. He often hunted with a Uberti replica Remington Army .44 cap and ball revolver, that dropped big hogs in their tracks, using a Swiss 4Fg black powder charge that pushed a 220 grain flat-nosed conical bullet right at 1000 fps. The C&B .44 bullet blew 1"diameter chalk-line straight wound tunnels completely thru the big hogs and in water jug tests, would plow completely thru 11 water jugs! Water jug testing the 320 gr 44 quickly showed the problem. The long-for caliber 320 gr bullet destabilized quickly and tumbled upon impact, making for reduced, totally unpredictable penetration. The 1 in 20 inch Redhawk rifling twist stabilized the long 320 gr bullet well enough to shoot great groups on paper targets, but not well enough to stay stable after impact. The Uberti Remington C&B .44's 1 in 18 inch rifling twist stabilized the shorter 220 grain very well for great groups on paper (3" groups at 100 yards, bench rested!!), and also provided superb stabilization for deep penetration on impact. Moral of story, calculated handgun power on paper is useless if the bullet does not deliver!
Or Flat points are more stable and penetrate more.
First off, new music, NICE!
I was commenting to my wife as she was watching this with me, you do some very cool stuff Amigo!
Your "thinking outside of the box" stuff is my favorite flavor, nd this fits right in there!!!
Thank you. I just do what I think is fun for myself lol. I'm that one guy who's not sponsored and it's a hobby.
that 38 spl round noise deflected by hitting the 38 spl hollow point, that was statistically cool :)
The extra weight of the 130g 38 FMJ vs 115g FMJ did the trick - I think.
Just think though, you can get 158gr fmj or lead round nose for 38spl that's going similar speed to the 130 and that extra 28gr makes a real difference!!!
Thanks for the work you put into these tests, Sam. Very informative.
wow what a great test i have never seen a test like this good job sam!
Thank you
This was really awesome. A "Gun Mythbusters," if you will.
Mythbuesters did a lot of gun stuff themselves.
Thanks for the time and hard work you put into these tests sam.
Thanks Sam, this verified what my street experiences w/.38 were during my career, as well as my choice in HP carry rounds in my LCP.
Thanks for watching!
Man, another great video! I really enjoyed watching the pass throughs in slow motion. Cool stuff.
Thanks!
On the occasions that I drop down to a .380, it's fmj, fn or ball. I've seen tests multiple ways and the risk of over penetration. All things considered it's a handgun. There is no magic bullet.
Hi Sam! This test is crying out for a part 2 with some other bullet choices. It is too interesting to leave it with one video. I believe we are all learning from this type of test. I'm sure you must be thinking, what just happened, and how can we dial it in! 👍👍
Yeah it might be interesting. I'm sure some people want .357 Mag, .45 ACP and so on.
@@GunSam Also other weights and brands of ammunition. I'm curious as to how the Hornady Critical Defense .38 would do as a 110 grain bullet.
Well thought out test with interesting results Sam....enjoyed it.
Thanks for watching!
I love your clips, man.
Good teacher
I’d like to see a part two with the FMJ’s being the truncated cone shape.
I second this.
I'm told they are better at punching through bone and/or shattering it, and lacerating blood vessels. Round nose is known for being deflection when bone is struck and for pushing blood vessels aside rather than lacerating them. Also, the truncated cone usually travels straight without curving.
@@828enigma6 Absolutely. The German army actually started WWI with FMJ truncated cones in 9mm that proved so lethal that the French threatened to shoot any prisoners caught with that ammo, even though it was perfectly legal.
Like fiocchi 142 grain .357s
@NAMELESS INTERNET ADDICT It’s from an article in Handloader written by Terry Wieland sometime in the past 10 years. Features the Lyman bullet mould that duplicates the shape of the German original.
Very interesting test. Since we who carry are responsible for every round from start to finish. Great information to consider. Thank you for taking the time to show this.
Always entertaining...and interesting. Thanks for all you do,
Excellent video. I’ve been wondering how these would turn out. Thanks for all your work and thanks for testing these. 🤠
Thanks a lot!
Pretty cool test! Thanks for the video!
Great video! Answers a lot of questions about the possibilities of shooting indoors.
Your vids are awesome man. Really don’t even see stuff like this on other channels.
Pretty interesting! Makes you appreciate a good hollow point even more. I feel bad for anyone buying a new handgun and only being able to get FMJ for it.
full metal jacket will take care of the bad guys just fine. dont you worry bout that
The ammo shortage and/or your budget might limit what you carry in your gun.
Lol That’s my situation
Great testing. I believe that your process' and medium set ups are very well thought out as is the employment of your equipment and the green bullet path graphic in the slo-mo. And so your representations/interpretations do make sense in the context of "near to" real world conditions. Job Well Done!! Looking forward to more, Thanks for the info.
Thanks!
Great video! Very interesting results.
Excellent work, thanks!
I read an online article some time way back where the discussion was what if one only had FMJs. They took them and carved a V-shaped trench on one side and this caused the bullets to yaw and tumble in gel which bled off a lot of what would be left over power, plus creating a wound much greater than FMJ normally would. Now, modifying factory ammo may not be advisable in less gun-friendly places, I suppose, but it was a fun exercise to read about. FWIW, if I remember right, the manufacturer of either the 5.7 or 4.8mm ammo made a "shovel nosed" fmj for that very purpose too. And I'm rambling now. LOL. Great video, very well done. Thanks!
Thank you. Of course this video has opened the door to a thousand suggestions lol.
Excellent test & info. Thank you.
Surprising results. Good vid. Thanks👍!
Thank you.
Interesting tests for sure, but I can tell you that a .380 ACP FMJ will penetrate a hogs skull at close range an put him down, so nothing to sneeze at, thx for the vid
I was raised on a farm during the 70's. We butchered several beef and hogs for our freezers every year. And we helped several of my uncles butcher their animals too. I was almost always the "shooter". I used a 22 rifle- loaded with LR or shorts. Sometimes HP and sometimes lead or FMJ round nose. Just whatever was handy. Every hog I shot fell to the 1st round, except for 1. It was a good hit-but he just didn't go down. A quick 2nd shot did the job. Beef were a little tougher, with probably a 3rd of the ones I shot requiring 2 hits. Butchering taught me the importance of shot placement. A small bullet placed right can put down a very big animal. None of the bullets ever over penetrated. They were always found in the brains of the animal (we used almost all of the animal. Even the brains). I've carried a handgun for many years. I use various calibers-including 22's sometimes. Unlike some, I don't feel undergunned using the 22. I know from 1st hand experience what it can do. I just recently bought a 22 magnum single action to use as my fishing and hiking gun this summer. When I'm carrying a 22 and I get that "What you carrying that for? You just want to piss them off" comment-I figure that person hasn't killed anything with a 22. I'm sure you think the same when you here that comment about your 380.
@@shadowwolf7622 Actually I grew up doing pretty much the same in fla, back in the 60's an early 70's. An yep, we had a barn gun for slaughtering hogs an steers. My cousin was the designated shooter, but it was his place. An a big yep on the .22 magnum cartridge, I actually hunt hogs with a .22 mag rifle, an only take head shots w/ 40 gr fmj's, so yep, I aint undergunned at all. An on a side note, me an a buddy when we were teens worked the late shift at a gas station in the early 70's pumping gas for customers, we got held up at gunpoint an they robbed the cash register of the nightly cash in the till. Needless to say we were scared shirtless an decided that we were gonna carry from that point on an we did, guess what we were packing, S/A revolvers with .22mag cylinders, an 40 gr fmj's, an NOBODY ever knew but me an Chris, so yep we didn't feel undergunned then either. Forgotten all about that for many yrs. Thx for reminding me.
@@williammccaslin8527 I bet those crooks are glad they didn't pay you a 2nd visit. Things would have sure went different for them with a few 22 magnum holes in them ! The magnum is definitely nothing to sneeze at. I've got 2 boxes of CCI 40 gr HP's I picked up in a trade awhile back, so I thought I'd get a gun for them. I had a 22 mag rifle and a couple SA's when I was younger but traded them off. I'm keeping this one. I've already been using it for a yard gun when I go out to do yard work or walk the dogs. I just read the other day that a 22 mag bullet fired out of a 6.5 inch barrel has more velocity than a 22 LR from a rifle. Not bad ! I too have a lot of good memories from my butchering days. Sitting in the barn, Dad, my uncles and me, cutting up meat and making sausage. Mom and my aunts wrapping it all up. We would even have some real fresh meat frying up on the old stove in there. We even cooked down the pig fat and made our own lard with an old antique lard press. Good days indeed !
Good video. I never fully bought into the FMJ over penetration argument...until now.
Overpenetration is mostly a myth and has always been except in warfare and I stand by that. In a self defense situation you’re much more likely to completely miss your target than overpenetrate and hit someone behind them. There are advantages to hollow points but not because of over penetration. I would never carry anything other than fmjs in a .380
Your 2nd try on the 380 acp hit the hillside at a pretty good clip. Definitely wouldn't want to be behind the target. But if a bad guy is my shield, maybe I derserve a wound myself.
Nice demo.
First off, good video and I appreciate how u do the best scientific/professional test u can. I quess some of it is a generational thing as this was all done pre-internet. Back in the 80's u cldnt open a print gunmag without a similar article/test being done. As former Law enforcement firearms intructor I just assumed everybody knew by now that FMJ's were range use only. Might check out shooting studies by Evan Marshal, former Detroit PD homicide, who started tabulating shooting data in the 70's to include actual autopsy coroner data. It's pretty interesting. Anyway, thanks again. Wasn't being negative. Appreciate what u do.
excellent video, first comparison of hp vs. fmj ammo that ive seen. lots of useful information. in my case, im a revolver guy. i have never owned any centerfire hp ammo, it’s all fmj, a takeaway from my first time shooting centerfire rifles and handguns in the army eons ago. my 38sp ammo is fmj or swc at shooting range or outdoors, wadcutter indoors or for a suburban ccw. seeing your video im even more reassured with 38sp fmj as a hiking load, as it will handle any problem in my neck of the woods. i would love to see a second edition of your test with various 32, 25acp, 22wmr, 22lr loads. thank you!
Thanks. I may have to test other calibers. As far as .22 loads, I think this would be a waste of time as yesterday I did a test with a dozen .22 LR rounds in the revolver and 24" rifle, and none of them would pass through this bad guy portion.
This video reminds me of an incident from the late sixties or early seventies (when I first started deer hunting). I've just tried to look it up but couldn't find it. A 12 year old kid (best I can recall, that was his age. Being so young made the story far more horrible) killed THREE HUNTERS with one shot, first thing in the morning, when he was bear hunting. The three guys were walking into the woods in a row, in low light, the kid thought it was a bear, and the shot went through all three guys. The incident occurred in Pennsylvania (I was in New York). It REALLY struck me -- thinking about how the kid (and his parents) would have felt.
"It REALLY struck me -- thinking about how the kid (and his parents) would have felt."
How do you think the three dead hunters would have felt?
@@Narsuitus I guess, uh, they felt dead.
My new favorite channel. Subscribed 👍
Thanks!
When I had a LCP 2 I carried FMJ ammo in it just because most of the JHP bullets either expand very fast and don't give you enough penetration or dont expand at all so you're spending a lot of money on ammo that's doing the same thing as the FMJ range ammo.
Thanks for a very creative video. You did get some surprising results my friend.
Thanks for watching!
Love the videos man.
Really fantastic video and excellent service to the firearms community to demonstrate that FMJ over penetration is real and we all have to consider before pulling the trigger thank you! 👍👍👍
Thank you for the video. I was always curious about FMJ and HP. This exact comparison.
I hope you get a reliable chronograph
It seems you have a fair amount of trouble, looking back over many of your tests.
I know it’s hard work so thanks again.
Love videos...keep up amazing work
Great video!
thats why i like my lehigh defense fluid transfer monolithic. may not be as nasty as a hollow point but more damage then an fmj. no under or over penetration and it dosnt have to deform to perform. from my testing works every time from multiple calibers,no feed issues yet
another great video! ❤
Cool video , loved it
With the ammo shortages, FMJ might be the only ammo you find.
Yes and that was the main reason for this test. I was going to mention it as my opener but forgot to.
Great video brother, and interesting test results. I thought for sure that you were going to use the 2x4's for the FMJ"s but I understand what you were looking at.
Very cool video like the new 🎶 on intro. Definitely explains why to use hollowpoints
Great test man.👍👍 Needless to say FMJs are a bad idea for carry and even if any of those pass throughs weren't lethal,it's still a good way to get sued. Maybe FMJs from something really weak like .25ACP wouldn't over penetrate.
They will go through barriers better.
Around the home FMJs are OK.
If #00_BUCKSHOT or bigger is OK to be launched 6-7-8-9 proj. at a time, FMJs shot one at a time are OK.
Perfectly horizontal shots are a rarity.. But people should not live in houses made of cardboard..
Thanks.
Another test that I haven't seen anyone do, thanks
Interesting. Thank you for the video.
I think part of why the .38spl hollows went through was the velocity was too low to get the projectile to expand, so it ended up behaving more like a fmj. You probably would get more expansion/less penetration out of something with a slightly longer barrel. Cool test though! Definitely a fan and looking forward to seeing more of your content!
I never thought I miss the other Intro music-.-
EDIT: Maybe keep one for the intro and the other for the end?
Very interesting video. Colouring the wound channel is nice too.
I like the new intro more.
Great Video! Thanks for Sharing, Sam. 👍👍👍👍
Thank you
Your videos are the best love everyone of them thanks for all u do Sam
Thank you.
Great video and testing Sam. Thank you for this test. Factos: firearm, caliber, and bullet type, and shot placement. Dont underestimate anything. ♠️☯️🎩
Thanks!
@@GunSam you're welcome. Keep up the great work Sam!♠️☯️🎩
Good video. Even as you said, a bit of it might have been a little unexpected. Always interesting content. Take care.
Thank you. Take care.
Definitely interesting and great video I as well wish more would have read on the chronograph
Thanks.
When things go bump in the night I feel secure in hunting for the bumps with a S&W M66 snubby .357 with Federal 125 JHP's. When over penetration isn't an issue I bring my Springfield GI .45 ACP with 230gr hardball or a S&W Chief's Special .38 snub with 158 gr LSWCHP +P (the old skool) FBI loads, whichever is closest to hand. I worry not. Great video, thanks! 👍
Thank you. Excellent demo. Wondering if you could post what types of ammunition you used in the test, like brands and grains?
Great video, learning alot.
Thank you. We all do including myself. Didn't exactly know what would happen.
Great video man. I think you both proved over-penetratration is a serious consideration but also that bullet performance is a function of so many variables that it's impossible to predictably quantify exactly how much of an issue it will be round to round and gun to gun.
Yeah, it's super difficult to really make caliber specific statements. Like, in this video I think the 9mm tumbled a little and the .38 flat nose worked how intended, and switching the nose styles would have switched outcome. That being said I have never seen FMJ 9mm other than FMJ round tip, I know the flat tip exists, I just have never seen it in a store or whatever, as where .38 FMJ is flat nose more than it is round nose.
Good stuff. Thank you Sam
Thanks!
Great test! It looks like you had an internal ricochet off one of the lodged hollow points.
I think you have broken new ground here! Good job!
This confirms my findings. In my country we had prohibited HP ammo. So we were experimenting with non-expansion projectiles. For the least penetration fast and light bullet was always better than slower and heavier bullet.
Very useful information
Thank you.
Changed up your intro....Nice change...Interesting test. Over penetration with ball ammo is always a concern unless on the battle field. If I were forced to use FMJ for defensive purposes I would really have to consider what is behind my intended target and try to get an angle to minimize collateral damage. Or I could just pull a Clint Eastwood and tell the folks behind the target to duck or die....
Mr. Gun Sam another great way to illustrate your point about why ammo selection is important for the purpose, in this case personal or self defense. Any chance you could do this same style over penetration video with old school .38 Spl 158 gr LRN that was the standard for so many years and/or full or semi wadcutters in .38 Spl. Know ammo might not be that easy to find for that, but gotta ask as a revolver fan as well as small semi-auto EDC person. Great video, thanks again.
Good test
Sam, great test! Would love to see how old school .38 Special 125 grain +P SJHP would do in this test.
Thanks!
That's why we love are 38 spl snubbies! Great video
Great test Sam, this is one of your best, Thanks for all your efforts.
Thank you. I think a lot of people like what I do because rather than a sponsored channel, I am just a hobbyist supplying my supplies with ad revenue. Therefore I can do whatever I want for fun, and I enjoy that. I would be making these videos even if youtube did not exist as I love to document my findings. But sharing it is fun!
Another interesting test, made better by the addition of the 'bystander' which highlights the shooting safety point about being sure of your target and what/who is beyond.
Thanks.
Very interesting test. Wish you included 45 acp 185 grain. I curious about that one too. I really enjoy your content. Thanks for posting.
I watched this again, this time paid attention to the 38 special. Sam, you used the 130 grain for the 38, is it not generating enough velocity to expand? Back in the day law enforcement either carried the 110 jhp or 158 grain lead semi wadcutter. Just wonder how they'd perform .
Solid vid, thank you.
Thanks!
Thank you so much for all the information. Did you work at Intel in fab 22 I am sure you are. I am mike rice, you were one of the nicest persons there, I was around Paul
Good job. Thanks
This is such a well thought out and put together experiment/demonstration/test. I only just saw the .380 test so far and will obviously carry on watching but about the 5" penetration into the "bystander". A couple of thousand years ago the Romans worked out that a stab wound of a mere 2" depth could be quickly incapacitating to a person, as a bare minimum and location of wound obviously plays a big factor, just like today with gunshot wounds. The point is that a mere 2" wound _can_ bleed profusely and quickly ruin someone's day/life. A 5" penetration of a bullet into gel, again with the crapshoot that is shot placement and especially so in hitting a person through someone else accidentally, all I can say is that it is surely _potentially_ lethal and that is therefore important to consider if forced to use FMJ. Missing your intended target entirely is surely the greatest danger but over-penetration is already obviously a concern and I only saw the .380 so far.
Back to the video....
Thanks!
Paul Harrell should do this with a second meat target behind the first, some distance apart.
Have you seen his latest video, be does just that .
@@richardelliott9511 which one?
Maybe I missed it in another vid, but would like to see this kind of comparison test done with hardcast SWC's.
Love your work, Sam! Question: do penetration values differ much if brand new gel blocks were used for each shot? I know this would be a lot more expensive to do, but wondering what your thoughts are.
Thanks. As long as the gel blocks are clean and have no air bubbles, ones remelted 50 times and brown have the same ballistic properties as new. But, in general I do plan to buy a block or 2 a month to have clearer blocks for some uses. Like, if I was testing .44 and .45 they can be super dark, you still see the bullets. But in .22 you really need it clearer.
@@GunSam I'm wondering if a bullet goes further if its path through the gel block is close to the ("wound channel") path from a previous bullet?
Yup and this is assuming you actually hit the chest cavity of the first person which often isn’t the case. They get side clipped or bicep then the pass through is much worse
Thanks Sam! You took the guess work right out of the debate. There's no more pretending "we didn't know."
Thanks for watching!
The difference in penetration you noted between the .38 and 9mm FMJ is likely due to RN bullets tending to yaw, and FP bullets tending to penetrate straight and nose forward. Elmer Keith liked FN bullets for a reason.
I've done testing with FMJFP bullets in 9mm and .40 where we were getting 40-56" of penetration in gel.
Thanks, this surely showed that fmjs will over penetrate and also you need to pick the right hollow point for your gun for a self defense round. For a woods gun you could probably use either.
Does hitting only one 'cartilage/thin bone' barrier sounds realistic to you?
Appreciate the video, don't get me wrong. But I'm not sure flat point 9mm or .40cal FMJs are such 'barrier blind' death rays..