Using Full Metal Jacket for Defense? Ballistic Gel Test! 9mm, .38 Special, .40 S&W and .45 ACP
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2021
- Testing some full metal jacket ammunition in a ballistic gel test (10% Clear Ballistics) using full size handguns as follows:
1. S&W M&P 9 2.0 5" with Federal American Eagle 124 gr FMJ 9mm
2. S&W M&P 40 2.0 5" with Blazer Brass 180 gr FMJ FP .40 S&W
3. S&W 686 4.125" with Winchester USA 130 gr FMJ FP .38 Special
4. Glock 41 5.3" with Winchester USA 230 gr FMJ .45 ACP
I also use MDF in my testing to simulate ribs or sternum and I do a 25 and 75 yard accuracy drill at my full size steel silhouette target. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/user?u=5828221 - Sport
The .38 was a surprise as I was expecting it to stop in the first quarter of the second block.Shows that you shouldn't underestimate the .38.
The difference between the various calibers in this test being the round nose or flat point. RN bullets tend to yaw and penetrate less, FN bullets tend to run straight with no yaw, which is why guys like Elmer Keith used SWCs for large game.
Interesting! Takes me back. 40+ years ago, I decided I wanted the .45 (I had a .44 special too), because there were no good options for expanding bullets. Col. Cooper suggested a 9mm handload for the Speer 125JSP that was considerably hotter than anything in the manuals, and he handloaded a 200SWC in .45, so basically it was down to the old system of going with bigger bullets if you wanted more stopping power. Today we have many great options, but I’d still feel decently armed with .45 ball.
I was just wondering I have a Taurus G2c in 40 cal and the 40 cal flat nose bullets seem like they kind of balk when being chambered,they go on in but not smooth like my round nose 9mm,have you had any similar actions with your Smith and Wesson 40.i have polished the feed ramp also, and I don't know if it's the flat nose or the bullet case where the bullet is pushed in it seems like there is always a ridge at that part where the bullet meets the case,and thanks for a great video and the 38 penetration surprised me as well.
@@dennisthurman8161 the ratio of diameter to length in the .40 is terrible. It is a short, fat cartridge. The best feeding auto pistol rounds are bottle-knecked, 10mm, and .38 super
Agreed
I had a friend who was a MASH Medic in the Korean War he saw body's hit with .45 ACP 230 grain hardball and said it blew big holes out the back.
When no expanding bullet ammo is available, it helps to start out with bullets that are “pre-expanded.”😉@@themudshark1106
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the .45 ACP is underrated today.
Roger that ! I'm an old timer. For years,45 hardball was the bullet. Now it's treated like it's a BB gun. I still believe in it. One of my house guns is a 45 auto loaded up with 230 gr FMJ. I have no doubts about it stopping a bad guy.
I agree the 45 had been with me for a long time and just picked up another for my edc. The 9 has little recoil and high velocity and capacity so if you don't train are recoil shy and believe in ft lbs energy b.s. you'll love the 9mm. But for me it's a 45 because shooting someone twice is just silly
@@biggunshandguns3687 And too expensive !
@@shadowwolf2524 - They are all too expensive these days.
@@guarddog318 My local Academy now has ammo-finally. But their 115 gr Federal FMJ is $22 a box. They have a 4 box limit and it's flying off the shelves! And my local gun shop here in town wants $30 a box for the same ammo. I'm glad I stocked up on everything when it was normal price and available. I haven't had to buy this overpriced stuff. Now my wife understands why I was buying all that ammo every week. And friends that laughed at me then are trying to buy ammo from me now. But it's not for sell.
I was really surprised by how far the 45 ACP penetrated. I would have guessed only about 20 inches, but its mass, despite its low speed, gave it momentum to keep up with the 9mm. I still think, if I could only have one of these calibers, the 45 would be it. If all I could find is FMJ, I figure I would still be alright.
Plain old ball ammo of all calibers has put away a lot of people...with .45acp fmj you are likely to have an big entry and a big exit hole, which is never a good feeling for the target...I agree, you would be alright...
Lead round balls were nothing to scoff at back in the cap 'n ball black powder revolver days.
While I am by no means whatsoever a 1911 fan, the 45ACP hardball round has stood the test of time and then some as a manstopper.
IV8888 did a test some time ago on 45acp at increasing distances. From a carbine barrel, the Federal 230gr FMJ penetrated 2-1/4 inch pine lumber at 440 yards. Estimated velocity at that range was 614 fps.
@@exothermal.sprocket I tested round ball in cap and ball revolvers in gel a few years ago. It can't compete with conical bullets in terms of raw penetration, but it gets plenty.... if you don't hit bone. If you hit bone, it will flatten out and flake away from bone and still go quite a ways.
I was really surprised at the penetration of the .38. It had such low energy that I didn't expect it to penetrate nearly as much as it did.
Same here. I mean, for a .38 standard pressure, over 200 FPE is pretty respectable, but I assumed it would be like the round nose FMJ I recently tested that stopped at around 20", and the energy was close to the same. So that flat point really made a difference.
@@GunSam was that round nose .38 shot at a similar target...? we have 125gr hornady loaded, but in a pinch we have mostly 158gr ball, and I'd like to think the target ammo is somewhat viable...
@@GunSam do you own any black powder revolvers? My pietta 1860 colt .44 caliber with an 8 inch barrel , .454 sized ball,does about 950-1100 fps with 30 grain pyrodex pellets.
It is small diameter and did not tumble like the 9 mm
I want that sign below the gel. Perfect example of truth in advertising.
Sam I knew (from experience) that the .45 due to inertia and low pressure was going to excel at distance. What surprised me was the penetration on gel! Back in the day when I lived in Texas I was given a large quantity of steel cased .45 acp ball from ww2! WE shot it in a junkyard at an old ford pickup truck. The jackets were steel so it,s penetration on auto body steel was impressive. The 9mm seems to yaw considerably more than I would have suspected. Ball DOES overpenetrate AND the Medium calibers really seem to shine with hollow point ammo the most as opposed to small calibers like .25,.32 and .380. The really big calibers like .44,.45 and .40 are already at the size other rounds are looking to get to. The take away from all this is that do not underestimate ball rounds! They are still very lethal.
It amazes me how much the .45 penetrates, without even breaking 900 fps.
The reason it penetrates is because it's going slow. When the projectile is moving faster it displaces it's energy faster, and penetrates less.
Lethal, but they can over penetrate and hit noncombatants. On a battlefield, this is not an issue, anything downrange is considered hostile, not so in self defense shootings.
@@andybreglia9431 Ya that's what makes +p hollowpoints great in pistols. Lots of energy dispersed very quickly, with no over-penetration. Heavy and slow rounds, aka .45, will penetrate further but isn't necessarily better.
@@supergreatairgunreviews Yep, more momentum means it loses it's energy at a slower rate when it hits something.
This test was great, I'm amazed the 38 slid thru all the test material. Almost armor-piercing level.
Sam's tests are the best of the best on YT...Thanks Sam.!
fmj hardball ammo has been killing our enemies for 120+ years. uncle sam gave it to me in 1972. i have never bought any so called defensive handgun ammo, either the product or the idea behind it. i am so happy to see folks crowding an ammo counter looking for the wonder rounds, leaves more ball ammo for me.
Agreed,Hollowpoints are overated. 2 well placed FMJ rounds beats 1 hollow point round
As an ARMY M.P. who used 45acp 230gr.Ball I agree have no Hesitation trusting my life to Ball Ammo....Shot Placement is and Always has Been Key!!!😉
Hollow Points are effective at creating a bigger wound, but they are also intended to stop over penetration, thus reducing the chance at hitting a bystander, or someone in the next room. Just what Ive seen online/been told, never done these tests in person or had to use a weapon defensively. That said, Id trust my life with both, though I have my defensive guns loaded with JHP's, with a stack of mags for each loaded with FMJ's.
@@sosuapimp8449 with that logic there's no way to justify going 45 over any of the smaller.
Roger that !
Fmj is a killer, just a slower killer....also, wound depth has to be taken into account for overall wounding affect.
A hollowpoint causes more damage in a shorter distance, a fmj causes less damage but on a longer path, so shot angle, target size and shot placement must all be factored in when choosing ammunition.
I carry 9mm NATO 124 gr in my 9's. 180 grFMJ in my 40's, 230 gr FMJ in my 45's and 158 gr LRN in my 38's. I see no reason to spend $ on the hollow point of the week. Hard ball is very underrated in my opinion. I love when I'm buying ammo. They always ask if I want "target" ammo or defense ammo. I laugh and tell them their "target" ammo is my defense ammo. They always get a real confused look on their faces. They really seem to think FMJ is just good for shooting holes in paper.
@@shadowwolf2524 We've heard the same...somehow the millions of soldiers and civilians killed over time by ball ammo doesn't register with young people...
@@PetuniaIii-pd1ww I've talked to family members and friends over the years that are combat vets and have used FMJ ammo to take out enemy combatants. They have no complaints and are very comfortable using it in their carry guns now. Their real life experiences carry alot of weight.
I once read an article which said that statisticaly fmj shots are ending deadly more often than hp.
There wasn't much of a difference in cavities between HP & FMJ in the gel.
Sam, Good test and video. I agree with your conclusion about the 45 APC. I love this round and trust my life on it. Good job and keep up the good work!
.40 s&w ball is surprisingly effective
Thanks for another cool and fun video that teaches us all something useful. Your 25yd shots are getting faster and faster. The 38 days speed and hits were impressive. The 75yd shots were very impressive. Who ever thought up shooting at steel targets would be fun was a smart man.
Thanks again for a cool video and as always you make learning fun
Thanks for watching.
Another excellent, practical ballistic test offering information for individual conclusions. Well done 👏🏼
I’ve been a fan of 9mm ball for some time. I have reason to be confident in this cartridge particularly the NATO configuration. Thanks for this demonstration.
Thank you for your service 🤩
Yeah the 9mm fmj not only did by far the most damage, even compared to the ht, but it repeated it twice lol. Got even better the second time. But the first wound channel was crazy too. 9mm never fails to surprise me. Shits like super Nazi technology, man.
Thanks Sam was looking forward to this
Here in Italy where I live jhp rounds are outlawed for LE use as well as personal defense so Fmj is 99,99% of what is used in gunfights. I have spoken with a coroner and he thought there wasn’t any great difference between pistol calibers but definitely thought the 9mm fmj to be a bit more lethal than .45 or .40 fmj because of its propensity to tumble. .45 acp ball can be devastating when hitting dense bone like the pelvis but will just plough through soft tissue pushing it aside at low speed, 9x19 will almost always upset and tumble at speed inside a torso after 4-6 inches (vital organs depth) leaving a noticeably larger permanent wound cavity for a few inches , especially in liver tissue. Said that it can be seen with .38 spl and .380 acp as well but less pronounced. Just like with rifle rounds, if you can’t use expansion tumbling behavior is much more important than caliber in determining lethality (just like 7n6 vs m43)
If you ever have an opportunity to read the report or a synopsis of the report on the Biggy Smalls shooting, I believe you will find that your coroner acquaintance is quite correct indeed. 124gr. 9mm. FMJ did the fellow in and it was an astounding read as to what those pills did to the poor fellows insides.
I've done a lot of testing of 230 gr 45 ball in water jugs, and in virtually every test, at many different velocities, they always tumbled, as witnessed by keyholes after the first jug. In fact they tumbled in every jug into the 5th jug.
Jim Higginbotham, in his article "The Case For The 45 acp," noted the following:
"FMJ-RN often tumbles on game in the 200 pound range giving about 14 - 18 inches of penetration"
The 230 gr 45 ball does not tumble in ballistic gel, but in flesh and blood the story seems to be different.
This tumbling effect, along with good shot placement, may be the reason Alvin York was able to dispatch over 5 attacking men with one shot from his 1911.
A tumbling 45 acp is close to .7 inches measured base to nose, and creates a large wound channel.
Nice post
And that’s why I’m confused to why this man said 9mm did more damage. The 45 ACP LITERALLY tumbled through the ballistics gel and it was one shot. The 9mm had two shots going through.
Every time you shoot that .38 Special revolver, I am impressed with your accuracy and precision. Your insights into misses are fantastic. It is obvious that practice makes better. But, it isn’t always as apparent that practice with multiple firearms makes you more quickly adaptable and skilled in what is likely to be most firearms…And, for 75 rds you riddled that target area and scored a whack of hits!
The more I see HST in tests, the happier I am that I bought a couple boxes recently. Planning on rotating my carry rounds with them. My preferred round is the Gold Dot 124 grn +P, but now i have the 124 grn HST +P as well. A confident with either one.
Sam it always amazed me that more ammo makers do not offer a wider variety of FLAT POINT BALL!
As knowledgeable as I am on ammo, I never really understood the reason why .40 is not in a round nose FMJ. I have never truly researched that question, but I assume there's a reason why.
A lot of older auto loading guns were designed with the standard round nose configuration as well as a tapered case (I'm looking at you 9mm parabellum from 1902!) as a way to enhance feed reliability. If you don't believe me look at some of the first generations of auto loaders. Their feed ramps are steep, narrow and very unforgiving.
Trying a superior terminal shape of a flat nose or God forbid a hollow point on these early guns would be almost suicidal. So most producers try to accommodate the widest variety of firearms for the best feed functioning, even though modern autos consume probably 95% of current handgun ammo sales.
So you are correct, this lack of bullet nose diversity really doesn't have much basis in reality anymore.
@@GunSam I've always had the same question about the 40 SW.
the reason .40S&W is Flat point, is because it needs to fit in standard 9mm sized magazines and frames.
@@maxtheroofer8004 That makes since. Thanks for the info.
The best reviews of cartridges out there. Some myths are exposed and some are proven.
it has kind of gone to the way side , but the 40 bore is still my favorite.sig p229,g23. also 10mm for woods cary. back when it first came out , then gaining popularity in the mid 90's. early 2000. i would fill my bags with 40sw brass every range trip. everybody had new guns and not to many reloading it. i have a life time supply i think. nice video.
Great presentation, and shooting Sam. Nice to see these FMJs in a side by side comparison. 🎩☯️♠️
.32 ACP would have been nice to add for comparison. I have a feeling FMJ would look just fine alongside its bigger brothers.
I currently own a tomcat 32 acp and I use 72 grain.....its pretty stout..considering it's size. (That's what she said)
32 ACP or S&W L wouldn't overpenetrate...
@selaxlife7621 its not stout at all 😂 i have the same.pistol
FWIW: I agree with your assessment. However, the M&P 40S&W kind of impressed me as well. In my case, I generally carry a Colt Defender in 45ACP. Hands down the two rounds this little gun seems to like the best: Flat nose 185 gr FMJ and the Federal HST 185 gr +P JHP.
My 1911 prefers 185 as well.
Where in the world are you finding 185gr +p hst never seen it.
Great demonstration. Thanks.
Good video. Interesting comparison of the various calibers. Take care.
Thanks!
RE double action @ 75 yds , most people won't do well at that , looks like you pulled to the right . At that range , easy to do . I would go single action when ever I had time if past 15 yds . That 45 did good !! I like that Glock !!
Hardball definitely its place.
In my SHTF stash, I have 250 rounds of full power 357 Magnum I55 grain conical nose FMJ just in case I need to penetrate a car door or the gas tank. 1450 fps from a 4 5/8" barrel. Just shy of 1500 from a 6 incher.
Not joking. You never know what's happen if the fan ever does get hit......with $%iT!!
Correction of previous post.......only 200 rounds stashed!!
Used up 50 last year on some old damaged 55 gallon drums and finding my sight adjustment at 100 yds. Funnest range day ever.
I won't say here what the loading info is but I took it from the infamous Speer #8 reloading book from 1970. Back when magnums were REAL MAGNUMS. Use caution.
From sandbags on the bench, 5 or 6 inch groups @ 100 yds. No problem hitting a 11.5" gong @ 100 yds. standing Weaver stance. All you young whippers with your plastic squirt-gun looking 9mms don't know what you're missing!
Happy shooting!
Toodles.
Just stumbled upon your channel, while falling through the CZcams vortex...good stuff. Time to binge all your videos. 😁
Yesss I cant wait to watch this I ALWAYS wanted to see 9mm HP vs .45 acp FMJ and even more so .50 ae FMJ.
Woow I definitely was not expecting that much penetration from a fmj 38 special it's very impressive
Great video.
I’m commenting early but hope you run the 9mm again. Surely you’d have different results and maybe a pass through. Would have thought for sure the 124 in 9 would have zipped through both blocks like the .40. And can’t believe the weak .38 did what It did, holy shiznit. That’s one caliber I can’t believe they still make ammo for. Really appreciate the fmj’s in rhe clear ballistics. Surely there’s someone else who’s done it but I havnt been able to find it if they’ve got on CZcams. You’ve got a bunch of good videos. Keepem comin please sir
Hey, I know you hear this alot, but thanks for putting time/money into these tests. They teach me quite a bit, and yes I am subscribed.
Thanks. I hear it, but not as much as I would like to so thanks again. During the first day of posting a video I do get a lot of praise from my normal subs, but if I get comments on an older video it's usually "you done it wrong" type of comments mostly lol.
As usual, awesome Video.
I was very interested in seeing the .40 Flat Nose Penetration (woods defensive ammo) but it wasn't very clear to me if it went sidewise or what happened to it. That is for comparison against Hard-Cast Solids or other fancy ammo such as Xtreme Hunter or Xtreme Penetrators. I'm under the impression that FMJ Flat Nose perhaps perform almost the same as these other fancier ammo.
Sweet test!
Excellent video as always thanks.
I would have thought that the .38 would have had less penetration given its slower velocity and lighter weight. You did quite well with the 75 yard shooting.
Very interesting, thank you!
Cool video Sam. Love all your videos.
..I personally believe when it comes to defense I would us HP ammo. That being said I prefer the 45 acp fmj than a hallow point. You just can't trust the 45 to expand ever time. And it's bigger than
9mm that dues expand.
great video Sam
Cool. I think flat points may have a little edge because of better energy transfer & shock. Just a thought before watching.
Yep a flat point is an improvement over round. So if you must have FMJ, make it a flat point. 👍
@@lanedexter6303 with my revolvers,I use a semi wadcutter flatpoint. Especially in my 1st gen JM .45 AUTORIM LOADS.
@@richardziemies8247 yep, takes us back to Uncle Elmer saying “big bullets let out more blood and let in more air.” A big flat point with full caliber cutting shoulder proved reliable many years before we had good expanding bullets.
don't blame the wind when there isn't any. love the chanel.
This was very informative.
Good video..keeping bringing us good test ..
The .45 and 9mm did about what I'd expect. Both were designed to go through a man within 100 yards according to the ideas of what was desirable militarily circa 1900.
38 special punching through the block was a real surprise, though!
Near 30 K Subs !! Great Job !!
Thanks.
Criminally underrated, in my opinion. Doing the type of tests Paul Harrell used to do more of, but broader scope and more consistent methodology than Paul. Good shit 👍🏻
He deserved at least one 0 more!
Another reason to enjoy the fact that I've never shot a pistol more comfortably than a 1911. Oddly enough, it was the WW II Remington Rand that sold me, the High Bling $5,000 one I shot malf'd before I finished the first magazine. (Failed to go into battery) My old S&W 659 was a tack driver and I loved it...
But once I shot that ancient warrior, I was hooked.
This is a timely production as I've heard some folks who are out of/can't find good JHP ammo have resorted to toting FMJs on the presumption that A bullet is better than NO bullet (and we know FMJ will do the job, FBI even says JHPs aren't really "more" effective -- the problem is greater chance of a downrange hazard). Of course, the downrange threat is even greater with rounds that miss so whatever is in one's gun, they need to be sure they can HIT the bad guy.
Interesting test, and some nice shooting, too. :)
Thanks.
Hornady did a flat point FMJ for and with the USAF. I LIKED that 230 grain .45 bullet. Accurate. The 124 grain 9mm version was an improvement over round nose no doubt, but I didn't use that one as much.
Good info. I’ve carried 9mm FMJ in backup mag, guess I should rethink that practice.
Appreciate making the comparisons....as others have noted .45ACP is underrated, however as you have also noted the .45 ACP is not as much for everybody as the 9mm. As .45 ACP capacity is almost always less than 9mm, it is good thing the longer sight radius and barrel help in the accuracy as you have less rounds available to miss with. Thanks Gun Sam sir!
I mean they penetrated the same snd rhe 9mm did more damage. And both shots. So whats the point if .45? I mean its cool and all and if thats what you want to use I won’t stop you. I’d even use it. But to act like it has some type of energy or wounding superiority is false. And it has many downsides too. The only advantage it has is being bigger, but here rhe 9mm made the bigger hole somehow. May not even make sense, but it happened, and twice.
Id say Id use .45 just to use a 1911 but they have them in 9mm too
And trust me at least online .45 is not underrated lol. Maybe in gun stores. But those people know their stuff so 🤷♂️ that’s like, their job, man. And they def steer people towards 9mm from .40 and .45.
But online? Nothing but 9mm haters and .40/.45/.357 magnum/sig/10mm lovers lol. Like literally everyone in comments sections worships these calibers, especially .40 and .45, and you hear stupid ass stories like “I’ve seen 9mm bounce off somebody’s head from 10 feet away” or “I know somebody who got shot in the face and head 17 times with 9mm and they were not even seriously injured” when a single 9mm round especially a HP will blow your skull apart, period. Its just stupid. And yes those other calibers are a bit more powerful from .357 up, little more powerful for .40, but .45 is >= 9mm in energy. It’s essentially identical at standard pressures and with maybe a few percentage for energy going to .45 +p on occasion compared to 9mm +p. Like 9-12% more energy at most (except grindhard ammo which is a whole other story and they load their 9mm to target ammo FPE and .45 acp +p hotter than Underwood’s .45 super lolol)
But in thus video at standard loadings the 9mm was 360 fpe and .45 was 365 fpe. They are identical at standard pressure loadings. .45 +p just gets a tiny bit more sauce in the tank but still its usually 10% or under more energy, it’s there but not significant.
@@SuperD00D Good points….I think it comes down to purpose, preference, and skills. If the intended purpose dictates the need for a bullet with more mass such as living where the threat is different like large wildlife encounters than just urban/suburban concerns then in todays world many might choose 10mm over 45 or .357. Also, your skills and comfort level with the weapon of choice are important i.e. if you do not like shooting it or it’s not what you shoot best then find the one that does those things. Just because someone may have a favorite cartridge like say .45 Colt or .45 ACP doesn’t mean their EDC isn’t a 9mm 80-85% of the time as most would agree this meets the self defense requirement with a wide variety of weapon, ammo, and holster choice. Be safe and well sir.
Haha interesting result on the 45 penetration compared with 9mm. I always like it when experimentation contradicts the established dogma.
I must say brother Sam, good video, n great Ruger hat !
was about to type in 380 fmj for defense then saw this at the top of the recommended, convenient coincidence
👍 good info ,first you have to hit the 🎯 and what you can handle for recoil.
I would argue the 45 also had a larger temporary cavity than any of the lesser diameter rounds. Aside from hole diameter, the temporary cavity is the one which moves things out of the way or more accurately, forces the surrounding media to accelerate from nothing to 830fps and back to nothing. The old question, would you rather get hit with a baseball or the baseball bat?
Depends on whose throwing the baseball.
The momentary cavity doesn't matter as long as the elastic threshold isn't exceeded and that doesn't happen at handgun velocities.
@@OTSOBerg-pn5gm I'd chose neither one thank you.
@@onpsxmember not all organs are very elastic though. Temporary wound cavities would destroy organs lacking elasticity.
@@turbolegend3976
Are you suggesting that matters cause you'd aim for the gallbladder or the liver based on a lower Young's modulus? Keep in mind that there is a lot in the way to make room and share the stress if not hit directly and the mechanism behind hydraulic based damage further from the impact is to start a tear and that takes a lot more velocity than handgun rounds.
Excelente trabajo ! muchas gracias !!
Good testing Sam
Thanks.
When I served in the Navy in the mid-1960s we carried a 1911 with .45 acp fmj rounds.
Cool video thanks. And nice shooting.
I carry the Glock model 41 in 45 caliber and I always trust the 45 over other calibers ♠️
Somehow I just can't imagine someone getting hit with 9mm ball saying "Oh stop... that tickles!"
As far as overpenetration goes... as long as the bullet doesn't travel half a block while retaining enough energy to kill an unintended person, I'm good with the bad guy/gal having holes that start on one side of 'em and go all the way to the other.
But then I live in the middle of nowhere, not in a crowded city, so my situation is different than many other people's.
Yup, two holes with the same bullet can't be a good feeling for bad guys...
@@PetuniaIii-pd1ww - Oh I don't want but one hole... I just want the doc to be able to see through it to the other side. 😉
@@guarddog318 its actually better if the bullet stays in the body... the doctor has to dig into you to get the bullet out.. if it goes through and it isnt a kill shot then they just stitch you up
@@jeepsblackpowderandlights4305 - You've been watching too many western movies.
It doesn't matter where the bullet ends up, as long as it hits the right things while it's inside the body.
A bullet that hits an arm, then passes through the ribs and into the lung, only to stop before reaching the heart, might not stop an attacker.
One that keeps going and exits the other side probably will.
( A person isn't always going to stand squarely facing you. They may present you with a lateral shot, or some angle in between. ) ( See the 1986 "Miami Shootout" for an instance of this happening. )
And who cares what happens to the person after the shooting? The goal is to stop the person doing whatever it is/was that cause you to shoot them.
Stitch them up... bury them... it's all the same to me. So long as they haven't shot or stabbed me before they fell down, I don't have a problem with anything that happens to 'em afterward.
@@guarddog318 no what im saying is real life as well. Its better if a bullet or arrow passes through if it hit places non vital. Than for the bullet to stay inside. I dont care either way. I use fmj not hollow points. Im not worried about over penetration
Nice comparison. .45 for the win?! Who’d a thunk it? 😉
When it's apples vs apples vs apples for FMJ , Bigger ( diameter) actually Is Better .
Dude I think we all wanna see more bologna packs. If your gonna run mostly ballistic gel nowadays, you should put bologna pack, mdf, then gel block. The gel shows the wound channel which is good, but the bologna is so dramatic, it's good content
I have 9 40 45 been shooting them catching rounds in things for years. 40 makes a big enough hole with fmj hits hard enough and will most likely stop in the person if not pop out 10 feet and land on the ground. To many people worried about over penetration with a pistol especially with 9 thinking it’s a laser beam that goes though 5 houses. I’ve seen accidental discharges they just end up in the wall or bounce off shit and land on the ground in the weirdest gemetrical way
I failed to mention that I appreciate this test as it is almost impossible to find gel tests for the .38-40 but since it is a ballistic twin to the .40 S&W this subs pretty well.
In the end you were talking about the lighter bullets doing weird things at long distance. That is them Unstabilizing as they drop down through the sound bearer.
Good topic & presentation.
Expansion consumes Bullet energy. The retained Velocity after over penetration tells a lot. The 45 Hard Ball has shown 50%+ retained Velocity after over penetration.
When you look back shooting lighter bullets was all they had to avoid over penetration. John Browning was a pretty good balistition. His 380 ACP was on par with 38 S&W.
While hollow points expand they typically do not make an exit hole. That is by design. If you miss a vital critical wound shot by 1/8 +/- inch the hollow point will hit it. Will this always reduce the number of shots required ?
Quick, accurate, follow up shots in Bullseye Shooting are typically done with slow moving and light for caliber bullets. The range is 25 or 50 yards. Putting (10) holes in the #10 & X ring at this distance makes doing it at only 7 yards easy. You don't need expansion with critical hits.
Thank you.
This just shows that shot placement is the most important thing!!!
Not really. If you have an anemic caliber or cartridge that cannot stop a threat immediately despite ultimately a lethal hit, it's definitely not the most important thing. Not even close.
The last bag of bullets I bought were 158 gr FPRN copper plated lead. Knowing these are actually swaged, not hard cast, it would be great to see how these compare to factory hardball when hand loaded to the same velocities.
I use fmj ammo in my Beretta model 81. I figure I need the penetration with that cartridge. I also go with ball ammo in my 1911 .45 because it feeds that type of ammo reliably and it's twice the weight of a 9mm and starts out about as large as a 9mm jhp expands to.
The .45 also wins at throwing brass near the camera! LOL. Interesting test. I didn't expect the 45 to penetrate as much as it did.
Yeah, I always park my ATV and trailer on the right of me, and brass hits it.
Awesome content.. great job..
The 45 acp is the only reason why aliens haven’t visited
Sam, You could have tossed in our favorite .357s for the hell of it LOL!. I now think of some future tests should include car doors with the glass and a dummy on the other side as if driving.. With road rage and drive bys happening more these days!.
I was honestly surprised by the .38's performance during this test.
This is exactly what I wanted to see from the 38 for large animal defense, in case I am unable to find 357 mag hardcast at some point.
good stuff , thanx for the video
Way back in ancient times when I was at the Alabama state police academy we were issued a model 10 service revolver that had probably been around in the 1940s. Next issue was 38 special ammo no hollow points or wad cutters and no plus p ammo long about 1990 we started receiving some 9MM semiautomatic pistols . Damn am I that old lol
Damn brother, I remember being pulled over by the Phenix City police dept. back in the late ‘70’s early ‘80’s and the officer had a S&W .41 Magnum on his hip. He got no trouble from me, lol.
In hollow points, more velocity leads to less penetration, this is apparent in carbine vs handgun tests (.357, etc). It may be the same thing happening here OR flat point bullets simply have more penetration regardless.
What's happening is that properly designed Truncated Cone or SWC bullets are more Stable . ie if they remain point forwards with minimal yawing , they will penetrate farther ( and straighter ) .
Round Nose bullets , depending upon ogive and length , are more likely to tumble . The 158gr Lead RN around which the .38 Special was designed circa 1899 , and was the default " basic " bullet for 100 plus years is more likely to tumble and/ or slightly deform than the shorter 130 gr FMJ .
* If both penetrate point forwards * , a flat meplat ( flat part of the nose) will create some degree of more tissue damage , and somewhat larger diameter wound channel . But a tumbling bullet will make more damage than a point forwards bullet .
Which is " more better " ? All depends on preference and context . For hunting or large animal defense , deep straight penetration is ( usually or often ) desired . For anti personnel , maximum damage within the torso is desired , and whatever remaining energy remains after passing thru is at best wasted . and at worst a hazard in itself .
@@filianablanxart8305 judging by the wound tracks, ball ammo did more damage via tumbling than flat nose bullets, did not expect that. There is a post from buffalo bore stating that flat nose bullets are more effective than round nose because they crush tissue instead of slipping through, so it's crushed tissue vs tumble wound track. I reckon one ballistic dummy vs shotgun test where he used ballistic torso simulation with bones and organs, 00 buckshot which penetrate between 14-18 inches in gel, in this video pellets reached the back and almost exited, so ball ammo may tumble inside of a vital organ.
45 ball ammo in a world without hollow points matters it was that way in the 90s
In the 1990's ? Decently performing .45acp JHP was around by late '70s . ( Whether GI 1911s would feed them was another question , but the ammo was there . The design criteria of 1st gen R-P 185 jhp was to duplicate the feed profile of Ball , so that it would function in most any gun that was reliable with Ball . Even if it expanded slightly less the the competing Federal product using the Sierra 185 JHC .)
Yes , it did take until circa 1990 to perfect * 230 grain * JHP , but the earlier 185 and 200 gr loads worked quite well , thank you .
@@filianablanxart8305 speaking from growing up in the 90s there were hollowpoints i remember however the thing i was getting at was them kinda not being around they were almost not around due to the stuff going on my dad had to look everywhere because most places didnt carry them
Must be a regional thing . Around me they were common on the shelves in the early '80s .
@@filianablanxart8305 could be i just remember like one day stores were normal then next weekend my dad wanted to buy a new gun and people were panicking was the 1994 awb
I shoot defensive style handguns at 50-100 yards pretty often for fun and I've noticed a large difference in accuracy between brands of ammo. On top of that velocity has a bigger impact on poi than you might expect. My point is that it's hard to judge a firearm or yourself too much based on a particular load. Still, pretty good shooting and very good testing.
I generally prefer 9mm for capacity/gun selection/training cost but if i had to carry fmj, I'd choose 45 even though i have no scientific evidence for it other than feeling/nostalgia.
I think over penetration would be bad. One, I don’t want a projectile to continue. Two, the pass through could potentially do less damage. Three, the pass through will perhaps “hit” softer.
I’d imagine the energy transfer of the hollow point was greater than the energy transfer of the FMJ.
I’d love to see a way of quantifying energy transfer and physical shock.
Rough and long week. Nice to kick back and chill out with Gun Sam and Legacy Collectables.
Thanks you. I have seen a few of their videos.
Indeed greg.
Perhaps the bullet profile and sectional density of the .38 Spl FMJ favored reduced drag and therefore better conservation of momentum than the other projectiles? Could be why it zipped clear through the gel blocks and out the back end with seeming ease. The HST bullets seem to perform well across the board in all handgun calibers. Good design. Nice comparisons. 15:28 .45 vs. 9mm - 230 grain vs. 115 grain, so twice the bullet, somewhat slower, maybe why it felt like twice the recoil. Felt recoil, of course, is a subjective measurement. I'm partial to the .45ACP and a 1911 platform, but to each his own flavor. Always enjoy watching your tests. Cheers.
All due to it being a flat point. A ball FMJ 130 gr would tumble at about the 12" mark, stop before 18". The flat point reduces drag, prevents tumbling, so it just keeps going.
FMJ is the round used by militaries for specific reason that they kill very well and travel longer and are more accurate.
Hollow point is "civilian" ammo marketed as safe as it wont over penetrate.
I have a 45 ACP load with a 200gr lead SWC (medium hardness) that chronographs at 900fps. I have shot several hogs with that round. The results are impressive. I have recovered about half of the rounds on the off side of the animal and the other half exiting. Because the lead is not hard cast, they still expand, not like a HP, but s decent amount. No lost hogs as the farthest one ran was about 30yds. I did once shoot an opportunity hog with a 230gr RN bullet FMJ, Blazer ammo. It did not exit, and that one was maybe 20yds away. The bullet was deformed some as it went right through the shoulder bone due to the hog quartering towards me slightly. It was a bang flop and the heart was destroyed. Gel is not a perp, just as a pig is not either. If over penetration is not an issue, I cannot see why as a defensive load, the RN 230gr will work.
Just remember to disrupt the nervous system with the projectile, simply poking holes in body parts takes a while to succumb from hemorrhage. Practice until you can keep all shots in a four inch circle or better out to 25 yards or so. Not with slow aimed fire but on a clock, remember he who makes the first fatal hit wins, second place means you take a permanent dirt nap.
Good video!
Thanks for SHOWING what the TOOLS WILL DO.
For WOODS WALKING FMJ would do the JOB on
ANY LARGE ANIMAL. “OVER PENETRATION” would
NOT be a problem but a “FEATURE” ( ; ) . . .
In Battle in “modern times” I believe the highest number
of enemy KILLS was by a Rhodesian solder using
9 MM FMJ. . . . Not saying that that 12”-15” penetration
isn’t a great standard for home defense or other
crowded areas.
Thanks for the GREAT work and your honest opinion.
I understand the concept of over penetration and agree for home defense it is something to consider. But for SHTF I stock up with Igman 124gr FMJ. I take accuracy over anything else and the Igmans are damn accurate in all of my firearms.
One must object to the accuracy testing phase. The pistols and revolver shown are seemingly fairly new, in good condition and possiby tuned a bit. In contrast, I fired a friend's High Power, a bit worn. It was a WW2 survivor and would group (for me) at about eighty yards about twice the size of a military silhouette target. That is of course at the 'south end' of the spectrum, but a multitude of hand guns are 'average' at best. Then add the human element...
I would suggest a Ransom Rest or something similar. But that adds expense and time to reset the handgun. Not much chance of getting a government grant, either.
I am not a proponent of FMJ ammunition as a defensive round. For most revolvers, I favor a bullet shaped like a cylinder. Flat on both ends. A Keith type semi-wadcutter is also rather useful and makes the cartridges look more familiar. Auto-pistols are more difficult. Any cartridge (bullet shape) must feed reliably and as you note, FMJ is not so 'social'. There must be a bit more care in selection and preparing the arm. Some throating is advised, but this is likely NOT something the non-enthusiast will want to spend money to do. Happily, much current ammunition will operate in most current arms. (I prefer and carry Colt Government Models and one variant thereof, and S&W revolvers: None made within the last forty years or so.)
Good video with the monetary limits available. (I would like to provide fresh gel blocks for each handgun or round, but I'm not Bruce Wayne, either.) I must say I find the premise - testing FMJ rounds - is flawed. But if that's what viewers want...
As you do now, keep it real.
In defensive applications, there are no FMJ ammo winners when compared to comparable premium JHP/balistic tip ammunition.
Good stuff as always, Sam! One question, have you done this sort of test with 9mm flat nose 147 gr FMJs?
Thanks. I don't think I have done that yet.
Good stuff as always, I would like to see this test done with 38 snub nose.
I think you should dip into the .357SIG in these semiautomatic tests
Good video. That's decent shooting at 75 yards.